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Smart Cleaning School

437 episodes - English - Latest episode: 13 days ago - ★★★★★ - 35 ratings

The Smart Cleaning School Podcast helps cleaning business owners from start-up to the struggling solo to the striving seven-figure get SMARTER in their businesses, reshape their mindset, increase productivity, clear the overwhelm, and get clarity through SMART goal-setting & personal accountability. Ken Carfagno is a lifetime learner and teacher. His mission is to help visionaries make the impact they were meant to make.

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Episodes

How to Do a COVID Clean

January 28, 2021 06:00 - 17 minutes - 11.9 MB

Right off the bat, let me make this statement. There is not one way to properly do a COVID-19 clean and disinfect, but there is science that governs us to follow protocols and procedures to ensure best results. There are so many companies out there doing COVID disinfection. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell which are tried and true with years of disinfection and training from the ones that saw an opportunity in 2020 and short-cutted the system to make money. I would first like to give a shout...

I Meant to Do It

January 25, 2021 06:00 - 7 minutes - 5.3 MB

I have two related funny stories to the theme of this podcast. Have you ever seen the "Polar Express" movie during Christmas? Most of you have. Toward the end, when the main characters are lost in North Pole, they stumble in the elf operations room. There are a number of videos playing of kids and a red buzzer goes off. One kid is shown on the Naughty List as he repeats the phrase, "I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I didn't do it." After the movie, my own kids were repeating that phrase inclu...

Create a Menu

January 21, 2021 06:00 - 11 minutes - 7.86 MB

In this episode, I'd like to share a few updates from my solo cleaning business. It is true that I stopped striving for my goals in late 2020. But I didn't stop marketing. My "Optimizer's Website", strong "Google My Business" profile, and participation in local networking and chamber events. Recently, I had a couple find me on Google that lead to my website and a phone call. They had their questions answered on my website and the rest over the phone, so they scheduled an in-person estimate. ...

Best Of - How to Start Your Solo Cleaning Business

January 18, 2021 06:00 - 23 minutes - 16.4 MB

It's a new calendar year. 2020 was so difficult for many families and so many are exploring other options for income. In this new "Best Of" series, I bring you an older episode that truly connected with my audience. "How to Start Your Solo Cleaning Business" is still one of my most downloaded episodes to date. Everything that I taught in this episode is valid in 2021 and beyond. The only addition would be for you to take cleaning science seriously. I did a wildly popular talk in my area call...

Paddle Like Crazy

January 14, 2021 06:00 - 12 minutes - 8.29 MB

I was listening to the Tim Ferriss Podcast recently as he interviewed the one and only Seth Godin. Between comments, Tim uttered the metaphor of the duck does all of its work under the surface. I literally had to pause the episode and write out this one! In my last episode, Mission 20/20 Accomplished, I painted a picture of team cleaning companies growing through insurmountable odds and I shared my success in 2020. I don't want anyone to think that we had it easy or growing our cleaning busi...

Mission 20/20 Accomplished

January 11, 2021 06:00 - 31 minutes - 21.5 MB

2020 started with such promise to many. Unfortunately, it ended much differently. This episode is not a co-miserating-let-you-off-the-hook-if-you-did-nothing-about-it episode! This is an episode to fire up the winners. With all the doom and gloom in the media of pandemics, failing economy, and people's livelihoods being destroyed, do you know that there are scores of absolute winners that crushed it in business in 2020 despite the doom and gloom? It's true. In fact, billionaire Mark Cuban pr...

20,000 Opportunities

January 07, 2021 06:00 - 12 minutes - 8.82 MB

I started this podcast with no expectations. It's a highly niched show for people wanting to optimize a solo cleaning business. When my show got to 1,000 downloads, I was shocked! It kept growing. Recently, the Solo Cleaning School Podcast crossed 20,000 downloads in 13 months! That's incredible to me. I am a member of the podcasting community and the "Downloads" metric is so important to people. I've seen some tote their download number around as if they are really big stuff, yet I've seen ...

Overthinkers Anonymous

January 04, 2021 06:00 - 16 minutes - 11.2 MB

"Hi, I'm Ken and I'm an overthinker." I constantly make simple things complex. That's what an overthinker does. We complicate the most simple task to the point that we cannot take any action to complete it. Another term for this failure disease is procrastination as Dr. Schwartz talks about in "The Magic of Thinking Big". The rare person that can take the complex, make is simple, and take massive action are the most successful in life. Our president, like him or not, is a great example of th...

Hindsight is Always 20/20

December 31, 2020 06:00 - 12 minutes - 8.39 MB

Make this a play on the year 2020. No one could have ever guessed 2020 would go as it did. There was a major pandemic that shut down the country for months. Riots broke out across the country. A presidential election turned into a 2 month battle in court. On a personal note, I lost both grandparents and nearly lost my mom. No matter what goals you set for 2020, few of us were able to hit them. In fact, I've been connecting with cleaning owners from all over the country all year and most were...

The Art of the Barter

December 28, 2020 06:00 - 13 minutes - 9.46 MB

In my last Carfagno Cleaning update, I shared about my honeymoon getaway with my wife, my grandfather in the ICU, and some wins in my solo cleaning business. I've already shared a "Tribute to My Father" in a previous episode as well, so you know how that ended. I have a few other updates from this week in business. As I've shared previously, Matt and Laura are a young family with a small child and both working full time. They have kept up the cleaning of the home, but it's getting overwhelm...

Best Of - Pros of Solo Cleaning

December 24, 2020 06:00 - 19 minutes - 13.1 MB

This was my 4th episode of the Solo Cleaning School Podcast. My goal was to share the top tangibles and intangibles that made solo cleaning so awesome. I also wanted to balance this with the Cons of Solo Cleaning. This has been one of my most popular episodes, so I wanted to bring it back. Enjoy!

Allow a Giver to Give

December 21, 2020 06:00 - 13 minutes - 9.37 MB

I've shared about my mastermind community many times. Total Life Freedom has members all over the US and for some cool reason, there are a few in my area. We formed up TLF Philly and held our first local lunch get together recently at Chili's in King of Prussia, PA. We had a wonderful time and discussed big ideas, what's working and what's not in our businesses. We laughed. We shared. At the end, the bill dropped and John Stange took it and as quickly as he could be paying with his credit ca...

Tribute to My Father

December 17, 2020 06:00 - 19 minutes - 13.4 MB

2020 has been a year none of us will ever forget. Is that not the understatement of the year!? We had a global pandemic, government shutdowns, trillions in stimulus, panic, fear, riots, election chaos, and it's still not over. None of this even scratches the surface of how I'll remember 2020. For me, it's the permanent end of my childhood and the time for me to prove out the legacy left to me. What does that even mean... "the end of my childhood"? In 2020, both of my grandparents on my fathe...

Should I Start a Podcast?

December 14, 2020 06:00 - 24 minutes - 16.6 MB

Let's get back into the driver's seat of my own solo cleaning business, Carfagno Cleaning. I have kept my promise from the introduction to this podcast. I will continue updating you every week with progress from my own solo company. 2020 has been a great year as I've hit several growth goals. Carfagno Cleaning is cranking as a solo cleaning company. My brand and reputation is established. I'm known my many in my community as the cleaning and disinfecting expert. I'm known as a presentation c...

Learn How to Tune Your Cleaning System

December 10, 2020 06:00 - 14 minutes - 10.3 MB

Have you ever played an instrument? I've been playing the guitar for a few years as a hobby. I'm no Santana, Van Halen, or Hendrix, but I can play the basic chords to play the majority of songs. I don't know about your instrument, but mine falls out of tune as the weather changes. I have picked up the guitar on many occasions to play a favorite song and it was off. Personally, I can tell by the G chord. If that chord is off at all, the whole song is off. Let me take this further. I enjoy sin...

An Optimizer's Website

December 07, 2020 06:00 - 15 minutes - 10.5 MB

I've been working on my brand new www.carfagnocleaning.com website as I have time for two weeks. I finished it this week! I'm so happy with it. Let me take you back first. I ran Carfagno Cleaning for 14 years without a website. I've always kept a company profile, but on other company sites like HomeAdvisor, Facebook, and LinkedIn. After getting back from the Total Life Freedom Mastermind Retreat in Gatlinburg, TN in October 2019, I launched my first website for my personal solo cleaning busi...

My Lifelong Struggle with Tourette Syndrome

December 03, 2020 06:00 - 32 minutes - 22 MB

I had a conversation with my daughter yesterday that really gave me the push I needed to share this episode. I won't go into any details, but I'll just say that my daughter is 12 and she has dealt with a form of OCD that has caused her some pain. This pain has created a very special bond between father & daughter that I would never remove. We sense each other in a extra sensory sort of way. She knows when I am hurting and likewise and we each have a supernatural ability to calm each other. I...

Get a Smaller Plate

November 30, 2020 06:00 - 27 minutes - 18.8 MB

I thoroughly enjoy giving these business updates. On the last update, $10,000 Watches and The Four Windows, I shared how important it is for me to have mentors and people showing me my blind spots. I attended the Total Life Freedom Mastermind Retreat in Pittsburgh, PA last week. I've been cleaning non-stop and I'm exhausted, but the sacrifice is totally worth it! I've been cleaning offices with my kids every Saturday, but this past weekend my son was on a Royal Rangers Canoeing Action Camp. ...

BEST OF - Free Donuts

November 26, 2020 06:00 - 26 minutes - 18 MB

The past 12 months have been a whirlwind of emotion from COVID-19, shutdowns, almost losing my mom, losing my Nana (who was my 2nd mom), getting out of debt, helping my autistic uncle through multiple ICU and mental hospital visits, growing my cleaning business, and so on. Recently, I re-listened to my episode from a year ago called "Free Donuts". I had just returned from the Total Life Freedom Mastermind Retreat in Gatlinburg, TN and I was convicted big-time to put my pride aside and really...

How Not to Raise your Prices

November 23, 2020 06:00 - 16 minutes - 11.3 MB

Many ask me how and when to raise prices. In this episode, you'll learn how NOT to. The story I am going to tell in this episode is real and happened recently. I am protecting the identity of the solo cleaner by calling them "Jen". Thankfully, this story ends well. Take heart and do NOT copy Jen's mistake! What did Jen do and why? I teach a proven strategy for how to raise prices in my ISO Model. I've been using this strategy since 2006. It's smart. It's battle-tested. It's strategic. And i...

Why Do Good Cleaners Go Out of Business?

November 19, 2020 06:00 - 15 minutes - 10.3 MB

I'm so thankful for a conversation I had with Patty in 2006. Let me set the scene. She was an executive for an apartment property management company with 13 complexes. I was cleaning for two of them and wanted to grow my solo business to as many as I could. During early to mid-2006, I drove all over the Capital District of NY to knock on the doors of small offices, apartment complexes, and builders to drum up more business. I had information packs with testimonials that I'd hand out at each....

The Four Windows

November 16, 2020 06:00 - 20 minutes - 14.4 MB

Do you know why books, mentors, and being curious are so vital to your future? I loved the "Rule of Thumb" that my friend Jon Appino uses. It's a joke, but exposes a truth. People do not like reading books because they were forced to in school. I was EXACTLY the same leaving college and working at GE as an engineer. But then I started my first side hustle as an Amway IBO and was encouraged to start reading personal growth books. I learned this right away, understood it, and decided to embrac...

$10,000 Watches

November 12, 2020 06:00 - 19 minutes - 13.1 MB

One year ago, I had just returned from the Total Life Freedom Mastermind Retreat in Gatlinburg, TN in mid-October 2019. My arrogance and pride were exposed to 20 other entrepreneurs from around the country and I was faced with a difficult choice. Do I go all-in to building a new solo cleaning company in the Philly Area and am I courageous enough to share my weekly progress to you, my podcast audience? If you've been a listener to this show for any amount of time, you already know my answer. ...

Learn to Truly Listen

November 09, 2020 06:00 - 11 minutes - 7.75 MB

We all have that one child that we seem to teaching the same lessons to over and over. That's my middle son Kolby. He's my main man, 9-years-old and we share the same birthday. I say that the best birthday gift I ever received was him! He loves that. Kolby has a way of asserting his belief that he is always right. He also tends to talk and hear, more than listen. He will interrupt others when they are talking and not realize he's doing it (as he's in his own head). If his mom says it's warm ...

Consistency is Most Important

November 05, 2020 06:00 - 22 minutes - 15.2 MB

This personal business update will be a little different. I do have some updates and it looks like a new client is coming on board as well. I'm combining a few weeks and sharing the highlights. One of the benefits of building a profitable solo cleaning business like I have and being debt-free now is that we can take more getaways as a family. It did NOT used to be like this. We have struggled just as much if not more than many of you listening right now. At the end of last summer, our family...

What Did Corona Teach You?

November 02, 2020 06:00 - 15 minutes - 10.9 MB

Toward the end of the summer, I met for breakfast with my Chamber of Commerce friend Ken Byler. He owns Higher Ground Consulting, helping leaders and their teams to thrive. It was fun to reconnect with Ken. He's super smart and knows how to ask great questions. In fact, he hit me with 3 questions that really got me thinking.  What did you learn about yourself through the Corona pandemic? What did you learn about your business? What will you change about your business going forward? This ...

Count the Cost

October 29, 2020 05:00 - 15 minutes - 11 MB

I was having a pre-driving talk with my 15-year-old son and shared my example when I was 16. I wanted to drive a car, but my mom couldn't put me on her policy. I bought my car for $1,300. Then my monthly expenses of car insurance, maintenance, and gas cost a ton. I needed this car to get to my job at the mall, but really I wanted the car to look cool driving to high school. I felt like I was treading water and not going anywhere. Why? I was going to school all day and then working at night. ...

The Sandbox Parable of Retirement Planning

October 26, 2020 05:00 - 18 minutes - 13.1 MB

I'm excited to take you backstage again into my own solo cleaning business as I work to achieve my 2020 SMART goals! Now that the school year was back for my family and for my clients, I made a shift to my new schedule. I shuffled my biweekly Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday houses to Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. My goal was to reduce driving. When you're adding new clients like I've been, it's hard to optimize for location as you go. I tend to put new ones where I have the time to do an amazin...

How Can I?

October 22, 2020 05:00 - 11 minutes - 8.26 MB

There are so many people with the words, "I can't" as a major part of their vocabulary. It's an easy answer and an easy excuse to fail. Those two words come from a society trained to be followers versus critical thinkers. I've been saying this to myself and my kids for over a decade. If we can change those 2 words to 3 words, everything changes. Do you know what the 3 words should be? You guessed it (it's in the title). "How can I?" Why should you do this? The answer lies in the questions w...

Naming Your Solo Cleaning Business

October 19, 2020 05:00 - 22 minutes - 15.3 MB

I would like to thank a listener to this podcast for this episode.  A few weeks ago, I received an email from Katie Young, sharing with me that she was in the planning phase of her new solo cleaning business. Katie was very excited to get started and thanked me for my support through this podcast. Then she asked a question that I have not directly answered yet. "How do I name my business? My plan is to make my cleaning business eco-friendly and primarily residential." She went on to share...

Scope Creep

October 15, 2020 05:00 - 22 minutes - 15.2 MB

This week started with content batching. Batching is an optimizer's tool for ultra productivity. Every month, I create blogs, podcasts, and videos for Carfagno Cleaning and Solo Cleaning School. It takes a ton of time to do each week. I used batching in my cleaning business and in other areas of business over the years. When Teresa's mom was available to watch the kids overnight, we jumped on the opportunity and grabbed a hotel for the night. I got so much done as I batched blog after blog a...

Would Anyone Notice with Kathy Barnette

October 12, 2020 05:00 - 14 minutes - 10.2 MB

Building a business is a privilege we have as free people in America. Patriots have bled and died to give and preserve this freedom and I never want to forget it. I also don't want to take it for granted. Kathy Barnette is the Republican candidate for U.S. Congress for the 4th District of Pennsylvania. This is the district I live in. She was a guest speaker in our church prior to the election and I was so moved with her talk that I asked her permission, her campaign, and our church for the r...

People are Paying Attention

October 08, 2020 05:00 - 16 minutes - 11.2 MB

This episode is in the same mindset of "Top of Mind" and "Get your Name Out There ". My solo cleaning business grew this week with a new client, but first I want to share about Tom and Andrew and how they each helped me. I wasn't afraid to ask for feedback. Tom and graduated high school together. We haven't talked in 25 years, with the exception of a few Facebook likes. Last week, I got a private message from Tom. "Hey Ken I tagged you on a comment from Ryan Nyce. He went to MHS a few years...

You Thought Forrest Gump was Good at Ping-Pong

October 05, 2020 05:00 - 21 minutes - 15 MB

There are two stories I'd like to share to prove that mastery comes with strategic practice. The first story is cute. While making a secret Santa with my son Kye in the basement, I was painting meticulously. Kye marveled and said. "Wow, Dad. You're really good at that. When I get bigger, I'll be able to do it too." I said. "Kye, it's not getting bigger that will make you better. It's a lot of practice. I've been painting for 35 years." He got it right away. It's not how many years you've bee...

The Stuff I've Broken

October 01, 2020 05:00 - 23 minutes - 16.3 MB

I've broken a lot over 15 years, but it's all relative. I have two mindsets to discuss before I share my cleaning misdeeds. Your auto insurance company keeps actuarial tables and knows exactly how much an accident costs on average. These numbers are taken into account when you get and pay your annual insurance premium. In fact, it is designed to be a win-win. If you get into an accident or not, the insurance company still makes money. They win. Plus, your accident or claim is covered so you...

You Can't Afford Employees

September 28, 2020 05:00 - 27 minutes - 18.6 MB

I've told this story for years. Teresa and I were in the Amway business from 2002 to 2012. While we were there, we were blessed with incredible friends and mentors. One of those men is Herb Eplee. He build his Amway business to 6-figures and residual income in the early 90's and retired from corporate America at 37 years old. Herb is a self-acclaimed Kentucky redneck. He had a retirement party that literally made the Spartanburg, SC newspapers as he set 5 alarm clocks in a field. He labeled ...

The Whistle is a Warning

September 24, 2020 05:00 - 10 minutes - 7.2 MB

Do you know how the tea kettle works? It's simple. You fill up the kettle, leaving some room at the top. There is a small pour spout on top with a hinged lid. The water slowly heats up as pressure increases inside this closed pressure vessel. Once critical mass is achieved and the water is boiling, the pressure inside causes the kettle lid to crack and whistle. The water is ready for making tea. I won't mention the person, but I heard a story this week that got me thinking about the tea kett...

My Greatest Ideas have Never Come from Being Busy

September 21, 2020 05:00 - 15 minutes - 10.6 MB

I brought my friend Vincent Pugliese into the SMART Cleaning Tribe that I facilitate in July as an expert to share mindset on building a life of Total Life Freedom. We covered many topics, but one connected more than any other. It was the concept of quieting your brain. Listen to the podcast for the full discussion. I'll share a few points he made while talking with Lizzie Strohl of Lebanon Cleaning Crew out of Lebanon, MO. "It's easier to work 60 hours than to work 40 hours. I used to be t...

Two Generals

September 17, 2020 05:00 - 11 minutes - 7.74 MB

In a recent solo cleaning business update, "Slow Down to Speed Up ", I invested 45 minutes in the driveway talking to potential clients. I answered all of their questions and even walked one through a series of questions to use to interview other cleaning services. Her name is Meghann. She hired me for an initial cleaning last week and it went splendid. Meghann was very impressed and wanted to get quotes for a recurring service either biweekly or monthly. I provided those prices within a day...

How Much Do You Charge, Ken?

September 14, 2020 05:00 - 20 minutes - 14.2 MB

I published the article, "Did you Know Cleaning has a Specialist Too?" for Carfagno Cleaning and sent it out as my weekly newsletter. I want to read you this article as it will help you understand WHY I earn more per client than others.  I also want to thank my fellow BIB member and insurance agent, Andew Rumbold of the R.A. Fraser Group for asking me the follow-up question "What is a Level 4 Specialist"? Andrew, that's an amazing question and here's my answer. I believe that the highest le...

Get Your Name Out There

September 10, 2020 05:00 - 12 minutes - 8.95 MB

This is a follow up to "Top of Mind" as I walk through 3 examples of how I get my name out there. Also, make sure to listen to the "Go for No" episode before this one! If you didn't listen yet, stop, and go back! It's hard in the beginning to do this as you fear what others will think of your new cleaning business. I promise you. It gets easier the more you do it. The next mindset you need is one of service and helping others. Getting your name out isn't greedy or self-serving. There are peo...

Go for No

September 07, 2020 05:00 - 11 minutes - 8.19 MB

You need to read the book, "Go for No". It's recommended on my 'Resources' page! I first read this book in 2007. It taught me that No is not the opposite direction from Yes. In fact, it's on the way to it! Once I got that, my brain shifted 180 degrees. I was still fearful to talk to people as an introvert, but I lost the biggest reason for the fear. This book lays this out. Most people assume that getting a No to your offer is failure and Yes is success. That's wrong! Getting No's is a part...

Slow Down to Speed Up

September 03, 2020 05:00 - 19 minutes - 13.5 MB

We need to stop trying to rush everything. I do have a goal and teach optimizing and getting faster at cleaning. However, I DO NOT rush the marketing and new client process. I take a lot of time to connect with potential clients. This pays off as I understand the trust building process. I have a few examples from this week in my own solo cleaning business. Let me paint the picture first. I was gone all day cleaning houses. While I cleaned, two messages came through for cleaning inquiries. I ...

Safeguard Your Clients

August 31, 2020 05:00 - 20 minutes - 14.1 MB

I've been cleaning homes since 2006 and have noticed a dramatic increase in home security as technology improves. Alarms have gone from wired to wireless. Cameras surveil various angles and locations of the home. Garages have keypads. Families are more secure than ever and they can do so at an expense less than it used to cost. This happens so predictively that economists give it a name. The early adopters pay the most like cell phones in the '90s or tvs in the '50s. Once the technology rea...

The Cows Were Right, Eat Mor Chikin

August 27, 2020 05:00 - 22 minutes - 15.4 MB

McDonald's is largest fast food restaurant chain in the world. There are nearly 40,000 stores worldwide totaling $21 billion in annual sales. I used to eat at McD's a lot as a kid and young adult. My favorite meal was the breakfast combo Sausage, Egg, and Cheese McMuffin, hash brown, and juice. Ray Kroc founded McDonald's on April 15th, 1955. He was a big thinker from the beginning and pioneered the franchise model, where you have a system for each new store empowering the spirit of the entr...

What Are Your Flies?

August 24, 2020 05:00 - 25 minutes - 17.5 MB

When I was 13, I got a job with the Movie Exchange. It was the company owned bye buy step-grandparents Monty and Shelly Tibbitts, whom I've talked about in prior episodes. They were the only entrepreneurs in my teen years, but I never had the courage to ask them real questions on business mindset. I wish that I had! However, I did learn a ton from them by watching the way the they lived and the way others treated them. First of all, they had money! There were always two Jags in the driveway....

Break Fix Model

August 20, 2020 05:00 - 22 minutes - 15.2 MB

I met Tom while living with my mother in-law. He was so nice and gave recycled computers to Kenny from his computer repair store. It started Kenny on a path to do computer flipping as a side business. We stayed in touch with Tom, with a possibility of Kenny doing some interning for him. I bumped into Tom again when he was on the Chamber webinar where I taught the "9 Mistakes in Disinfecting". Tom was really impressed and wanted to have me speak on the topic in a local business owner's group....

Basic Safety for Solos

August 17, 2020 05:00 - 20 minutes - 14.3 MB

I loved and hated the movie "Patch Adams" when it came out in the late 90's. There is one scene that is burned into my mind and unfortunately, I'll never forget it. Patch and his girlfriend Carin Fisher were serving the community with a medical clinic. A man named Larry enters the clinic and they take him in. He is mentally ill and disturbed, but seems harmless. One night, Larry calls Carin and asks her to come over and help him. She is so trusting and willingly comes over. She enters Larry'...

Google My Business Rocks!

August 13, 2020 05:00 - 22 minutes - 15.8 MB

I shared in previous episodes that marketing is layered. You add one at a time. Well, I began to use the free Google My Business listing in November 2019. It's a simple tool and totally allows me to showcase my strengths. I call this in my ISO Model Course, a "Profile to Win". Here's the gist. What can I display about me and my company to create trust and credibility before they ever call me? In my 15 years, I have learned that before & after pictures, professional credentials, and recommend...

Be a Pro

August 10, 2020 05:00 - 16 minutes - 11.7 MB

This episode is completely different from others! I made a mistake in my industry, owned it, and it turned out really well! I'm a member of various cleaning groups on Facebook. One of them is called Professional House Cleaners, run by my friend Angela Brown of Savvy Cleaner. There are over 10,000 cleaning service owners active in this group to share lessons and best practices for the benefit of our industry. That's how it's supposed to work. We are all a part of the same industry and we unde...