Finding Strong
92 episodes - English - Latest episode: 5 days ago - ★★★★★ - 122 ratingsUltra endurance athlete and coach, Mark Bottenhorn and Ultra Endurance Athlete Arthur Blue, are on a mission to find the strongest version of themselves. Episodes touch on topics including, performance, fitness, nutrition, mental health, and mindset. Please like, rate, share and subscribe if you find value in our content.
Arthur: @Arthur.Blue3
Mark: @bottenhornrunning
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Episodes
079: Taking Ownership
April 19, 2024 17:00 - 54 minutes - 37.6 MBThis informal conversation between Arthur and Mark revolves around the theme of taking ownership and accountability in various aspects of life, including fitness, career, and personal growth. The hosts discuss the importance of owning one's current situation and not dwelling on past achievements or future goals. They emphasize the need to enjoy the journey and make small, sustainable changes to achieve long-term success. The conversation also addresses common excuses, such as lack of time, a...
078: Strong Session - Get Better TODAY
April 11, 2024 09:00 - 21 minutes - 14.8 MBSummary In this conversation, Mark and Arthur discuss the importance of perseverance and discipline in training. They share personal experiences and strategies for staying motivated and pushing through challenging workouts. They emphasize the significance of focusing on the present moment and the short-term goals to achieve long-term success. The conversation highlights the mental and physical benefits of staying committed to the training process. Takeaways -Building discipline and resili...
077: James 'Frenchy' Lambert - Choose Positivity
April 05, 2024 14:00 - 53 minutes - 36.8 MBSummary In this episode of the Finding Strong podcast, Mark Bottenhorn and Arthur Blue interview James Lambert, also known as Frenchy, a middle-of-the-pack ultra runner who is currently battling stage four cancer. Frenchy shares his journey from being a magician to becoming an ultra runner, his love for the sport, and how he approaches races with a positive mindset. He also discusses his cancer diagnosis, his treatment at MD Anderson Cancer Center, and his plans for future races. Throughout...
076: Strong Session - Stay The Course
April 02, 2024 16:00 - 16 minutes - 11.1 MBIn this strong session, Mark Bottenhorn and Arthur Blue discuss the importance of staying the course and not quitting when things get tough. They emphasize the need to push through adversity and persevere in order to achieve success. They also provide strategies for quieting the urge to quit, such as filtering out distractions, surrounding yourself with like-minded individuals, and practicing discipline. The conversation highlights the significance of choosing what you want most over what yo...
075: Listener Q&A - March
March 28, 2024 22:00 - 55 minutes - 38.3 MBTakeaways Life will inevitably get in the way of training, but it's important to find ways to adapt and make the most of the situation. Having a consistent pre-run and post-run routine, including stretching, foam rolling, and recovery tools, can help improve performance and prevent injuries. Every runner, regardless of pace, should be encouraged and supported in their training journey. The timing of strength training sessions should be based on individual goals and priorities, with a foc...
074: Strong Session - Apprentice Mindset
March 26, 2024 18:00 - 18 minutes - 12.7 MBIn this conversation, Mark and Arthur discuss the importance of having an apprentice mindset and constantly seeking to learn and grow. They emphasize the value of discomfort and setbacks in the learning process, as well as the role of mentorship in personal and professional development. They encourage listeners to expand their knowledge and skills by stepping out of their comfort zones and embracing new challenges. Takeaways Embrace an apprentice mindset and always be open to learning and ...
073: Excuses and Goal Setting
March 22, 2024 16:00 - 57 minutes - 39.7 MBIn this episode of the podcast, Mark Bottenhorn and Arthur Blue discuss the importance of seeking discomfort and facing adversity in order to achieve success. Mark shares his frustration with his soccer team's decision to postpone a game due to bad weather, emphasizing the need for a killer instinct and a mindset of pushing through challenges. The hosts also discuss strategies for setting oneself up for success, including preparing the night before, automating routines, and journaling. The...
Strong Session: Don't Give Pain a Voice
March 17, 2024 23:00 - 16 minutes - 11.6 MBIn this Strong Session, Mark and Arthur discuss the concept of not giving pain a voice. They reflect on their recent trail races and the challenging conditions they faced. They emphasize the importance of controlling one's thoughts and words, as they can either build or destroy. They discuss the power of a positive mindset and the dangers of complaining and negativity. They encourage listeners to embrace discomfort and see it as an opportunity for growth. They also acknowledge Chad, who popu...
Strong Session: Suffering is a Privilege
March 11, 2024 09:00 - 11 minutes - 8.1 MBStrong Session; your Monday Morning Meditation. 11 Minutes. All killer, no filler. In this episode, Mark and Arthur discuss the concept of suffering and how it can be seen as a privilege and a tool, when harnessed properly, to forge growth. They emphasize the importance of embracing struggles and using them as opportunities for growth and self-improvement. They also highlight the benefits of choosing a path of resistance and actively seeking discomfort in pursuit of personal goals. The co...
072: Strength for Endurance Athletes
March 08, 2024 10:00 - 56 minutes - 39.1 MBSummary In this episode, Mark and Arthur discuss the benefits of strength training for endurance athletes and hybrid athletes. They emphasize the importance of strength training for improving running economy, reducing the risk of injury, and enhancing overall performance. They also highlight the long-term benefits of strength training for maintaining a high quality of life in later years. The hosts discuss different approaches to strength training, including rep ranges and different types o...
Triumph: A Race Recap + Lessons in the Highs and Lows
February 28, 2024 16:00 - 45 minutes - 31 MBSummary In this episode, Mark and Arthur are joined by guest Ash to discuss their recent race. Ash completed her first ultra and set a marathon PR during the race. They talk about Ash training leading up to the race and the importance of increasing mileage volume. They also discuss the highs and lows of the race, including the challenges of fueling properly. The episode concludes with a discussion on recovery and the importance of maintaining a positive mindset during races and training. In...
070: Don Reichelt; Mental Resilience in Racing and Training
February 16, 2024 15:00 - 1 hour - 43.3 MBSummary In this episode, Mark and Arthur interview Don Reichelt, a mountain ultra trail runner and current USATF 100 mile national champion from Colorado. Don shares his journey into ultra-running and how he went from being a triathlete to tackling ultra-marathons. He discusses his training routine, emphasizing the importance of going slow and incorporating strength training. Don also shares his mental strategies for overcoming challenges during races and avoiding the comparison trap. He ta...
069: Mark Bottenhorn: An Intersection of Endurance and Life
February 09, 2024 10:00 - 54 minutes - 37.6 MBIn this episode, Arthur interviews Mark as a reintroduction to new listeners. Mark returns to racing - Arthur and Mark dive into how Mark grew through adversity and into new updates in Mark's life. In this episode: Mark's background in competition and coaching Mark's mentality around pushing his limits Mark's future plans for competition, coaching and life. Mark speaks to the grit required in endurance, sharing the mentality around finding balance between training and the parenting ...
068: Arthur Blue - Forged by Adversity
February 02, 2024 10:00 - 1 hour - 43.8 MBSummary In this episode, host Mark Bottenhorn interviews host Arthur Blue, a former military/Special Forces captain and accomplished ultrarunner. They discuss Arthur's journey into ultrarunning, the mental resilience required in endurance sports, and Arthur's two-year sobriety milestone. They also explore Arthur's transition from a career in finance to the health and wellness industry, including his involvement with a black-owned outdoor retailer and his work with Fleet Feet and Team Red, W...
067: Training Week Blueprint
January 29, 2024 20:00 - 50 minutes - 34.9 MBSummary In this episode, Mark and Arthur discuss their training routines and the importance of building a proper training program. They emphasize the need for proper footwear and mastering the basics of training, including nutrition and recovery. Mark shares his training week, which includes running, strength training, and active recovery. Arthur discusses his unconventional training routine, which includes running, lifting, and longer runs on weekends. They also address frequently asked qu...
066: Mindset Matters
January 12, 2024 10:00 - 57 minutes - 39.7 MBArthur and Mark explore the various tactics for optimizing your mindset and finding your true capabilities. The hosts pull from personal experience in endurance, career, and coaching The tactics include: Growth mindset vs Fixed Mindset Victim Mindset Facing fears Self Belief & Doubt Pursuit Ultra endurance athlete and coach, Mark Bottenhorn and Ultra Endurance Athlete Arthur Blue, are on a mission to find the strongest version of themselves. Episodes touch on topics including, perform...
065: Listener Q&A
January 05, 2024 03:00 - 48 minutes - 33.6 MBArthur and Mark dive into five listener questions: How do you determine ideal mileage for yourself or an athlete? What are ways to improve recovery? Can endurance athlete start later in life? How can I lift heavy and run fast? Popular social media trends vs realistic training? @Arthur.Blue3 @bottenhornrunning
064: Coach's Roundtable - Stress
March 09, 2022 01:00 - 51 minutes - 35.4 MBCoach and Sub4 Miler Kevin Kelly joins Michael and Mark for the second time. In this week's episode the trio talk about an outside factor that many people do not consider in their training; stress. Kevin, Mark and Michael draw from their personal history and coaching experience to make a case for being aware of stress and the potential downsides. Stress decreases performance, increases effort, plays a hormonal role, and impacts motivation - that's not exactly ground breaking. The group cove...
064: Coach's Roundtable - Stress
March 09, 2022 01:00 - 51 minutes - 35.4 MBCoach and Sub4 Miler Kevin Kelly joins Michael and Mark for the second time. In this week's episode the trio talk about an outside factor that many people do not consider in their training; stress. Kevin, Mark and Michael draw from their personal history and coaching experience to make a case for being aware of stress and the potential downsides. Stress decreases performance, increases effort, plays a hormonal role, and impacts motivation - that's not exactly ground breaking. The group cove...
063: Adversity & Growth
February 23, 2022 00:00 - 38 minutes - 26.3 MBMark and Michael sit down and cite recent moments of adversity in their training and racing, and discuss practically, how those moments can shape the outcome of a race, a training week, or a whole training cycle. As always, if you want to support the show you can: Rate, and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Share us on social media and tag @sonofragingjoe and @bottenhornrunning OR if you are in the need for high quality sports nutrition supplements, check out ...
Strong Session: Down Weeks & Adaptation
February 20, 2022 02:00 - 20 minutes - 13.9 MBWhat is a Down Week, why should I take one, and when should I take them? Down weeks are crucial for adaptation to stressors, increase in fitness and much more. A Ball State University study looking at Creatine Kinase in well trained endurance athletes. Indicators that it's time to take one. An IG user Question about knee pain, and how to proceed from @ayepham As always, if you want to support the show you can: Rate, and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Shar...
062: Alex Buck Part II - Perseverance and Performance
February 16, 2022 01:00 - 1 hour - 75.4 MBMichael and Mark sit down for another episode with Vegan Ironman, and addiction recovery coach Alex Buck for part II of his miniseries on FSP. Alex details his emotional and powerful journey from nearly dying to clawing his way out of the clutches of addiction and a cycle of destructive behavior. He provides valuable insight into recovery, growth, improvement as an athlete and human. As always, if you want to support the show you can: Rate, and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you ge...
Strong Session: Science of Slow
February 08, 2022 00:00 - 16 minutes - 11.5 MBStrong Session: Science of Slow + HR Training Last week's Strong Session was downloaded in 45 countries! This week's Strong Session dives into the science of running slow and the benefits of low intensity training for cardiac output and aerobic capacity. Mark also gives info about heart rate training vs potential limitations and includes a field max heart rate test that could give you approximate readings to base your heart rate zones on. Intro Slow Down to Run Better 1:46 Heart Rate ...
Strong Session: 3 Tips for Better Running Economy
February 02, 2022 02:00 - 13 minutes - 9.23 MBStrong Sessions: 10-15 minute cram sessions to arm you with the tools you need to be the best version of yourself. Info you need, and nothing you don't! On today's Strong Session, host and coach, Mark Bottenhorn provides three small tips that any endurance athlete can add into their program to be a faster, more economical, and more resilient athlete. These may seem small, but they have a massive pay off. Wishing you peace, love, and a helluva lot more miles! *Let us know what you think!...
061: Alexander Buck; Endurance, Perseverance, & Positivity
January 25, 2022 02:00 - 57 minutes - 39.2 MBAlex Buck joins the Strong Squad! The Outlier Series is back. Michael and Mark sit down with Alexander Buck. Alex is a Vegan Ironman, former actor, musician, animal rights activist, and an addiction and recovery coach based in southern Southern California. The story so nice, we had to share it twice! We couldn't possibly fit this amazing story into one single episode, so, in order to do Alex justice, we're making this into a series. In part one of this series, Alex speaks about his backgro...
060: Performance Q&A #2
January 13, 2022 12:00 - 55 minutes - 37.9 MBMichael wins not one, but two, 5km cross country style races to start the year. Mark is back to high volume aerobic focused training for the first time since June of 2020. 2022 is kicking off in a big way for the FSP family. Let's go! Happy new year, you beautiful people. Please help us get to 100 five star reviews ️️️️ sitting currently at 93, but those are rookie numbers and we gotta pump those up!! If you find our content helpful or entertaining, please rate us five stars on Apple podc...
059: Kevin Kelly - Outlier Series #1
January 08, 2022 16:00 - 1 hour - 46.9 MBJoining us for the first episode of the Finding Strong Outlier Series is Kevin Kelly. Kevin is a 3:57 Miler, former youth Irish National Team Runner, NCAA D1 runner, and Graduate Assistant Kevin Kelly. Kevin and Mark touch on a number of topics relating to his journey, his growth in the sport, and mental health. This is a pretty raw look at the challenges that come along with chasing your dream and finding the strongest version of yourself.
058: Rediscovering Ultra. A Race Recap.
December 19, 2021 19:00 - 52 minutes - 36.3 MBMichael and Mark sit down and discuss Mark's journey of falling back in love with ultra running and the ups and downs along the way. Mark is hungry to race and train again following a long battle with anxiety and depression. In what started as a a plan to go run a few loops of a backyard ultra with friends has ultimately culminated in Mark restoring his love for racing while remaining compassionate to himself. Please rate us on iTunes, subscribe and share if you want to support. @sonofra...
058: Rediscovering Ultra. A Race Recap.
December 19, 2021 19:00 - 52 minutes - 36.3 MBMichael and Mark sit down and discuss Mark's journey of falling back in love with ultra running and the ups and downs along the way. Mark is hungry to race and train again following a long battle with anxiety and depression. In what started as a a plan to go run a few loops of a backyard ultra with friends has ultimately culminated in Mark restoring his love for racing while remaining compassionate to himself. Please rate us on iTunes, subscribe and share if you want to support. @sonofra...
057: Race Week Rundown
November 30, 2021 05:00 - 30 minutes - 21.3 MB6 days out from the longest and most grueling race of his life, Mark gives a solo breakdown of typical race week execution - and also what do to when the situation or environment are less than ideal. Mark touches on training structure, purpose, tips and common pitfalls to avoid. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week. Follow @bottenhornrunning for live instagram story updates during the race as Mark competes to earn a silver ticket to represent the United States in the inter...
Episode 056: Back At It
August 12, 2021 12:00 - 42 minutes - 29.1 MBMichael and Mark are back, finally, with a brand new podcast format. This episode includes a race recap, training talk and talk about the adaptations from stress + rest. Thank you for listening. Please share on instagram and rate us on iTunes if you find value in our content.
Season 2, Episode 3: Training Update
April 05, 2021 02:00 - 50 minutes - 34.4 MBMark, Michael and Nikki sit down to discuss their training agenda, structure for training, and adding purposeful strength training into the rotation to improve their running. Nikki discusses her upcoming powerlifting meet and the uniqueness of not frequently competing, while coaching athletes who compete at the highest level and why now more competition is in her future with some really big goals. We apologize for the audio quality, after upgrading systems both Nikki and Mark did not have co...
Season 2, Episode 02 - Performance Q&A
March 15, 2021 01:00 - 51 minutes - 35.1 MBIn this episode Michael, Nikki, and Mark answer listener questions about performance. The topics include balancing strength training and running, recovery and supplements, motivation, vo2 max and training paces. The gang also talk about the Boston Marathon's new policy, virtual races and more. Please follow and interact with the hosts of the Finding Strong Podcast at: @sonofragingjoe @hookgripnikki @bottenhornrunning
Season 2, Episode 01: Back At it
January 29, 2021 18:00 - 46 minutes - 31.9 MBMichael, Mark and new host/contributor Nikki Sterlacci catch up and very informally discuss new goals, a new vision and new direction. Michael discusses his process for recovery from hip surgery, training for the Boston marathon and his new career. Mark discusses balancing his promotion, his short-but-sweet foray into powerlifting, and how his passion for running far and competing has been reignited. Additionally, the team introduces Nikki Sterlacci, a certified strength and conditioning coa...
Episode 052: Ryan Miller
August 18, 2020 12:00 - 1 hour - 62.1 MBMark and Michael sit down with Mark's new coach, Ryan Miller. On the episode they discuss his journey as a professional runner and his coaching philosophy. At the end of the episode they discuss Ryan's thoughts on Mark's potential and his vision for him. As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a comment or message. You can find the hosts of the Finding Strong Podcast: Pat: @Patxgates Michael: @Sonofragingjoe Mark: @bottenhornrunning and www.mar...
Episode 051: Anatomy of a Training Week
July 29, 2020 13:00 - 1 hour - 52.2 MBEasy runs? Yes. Long runs? Of course. Quality sessions? What!? Mark and Michael take a deep dive into the anatomy of a Training Week including rest days, recovery, easy runs, long runs and quality sessions. They also briefly dive into the mindset required to execute a training week properly. As always you can find Pat @patxgates, Michael @sonofragingjoe and Mark @bottenhornrunning and www.markbottenhorn.com As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a...
Episode 050: Race Recap: Summer Stampede
July 20, 2020 14:00 - 51 minutes - 35.7 MBPat, Mark, and Michael sit down to discuss the Summer Stampede race. Mark goes into detail on what what well and some obstacles he had along the way leading up to the race. Mark teases something he is going to announce soon. As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a comment or message. You can find the hosts of the Finding Strong Podcast: Pat: @Patxgates Michael: @Sonofragingjoe Mark: @bottenhornrunning and www.markbottenhorn.com Opinions, co...
Episode 049: Beat the Heat
July 01, 2020 11:00 - 44 minutes - 30.5 MBMark and Pat sit down and dive into the physiological factors of training in the heat. Many endurance athletes are feeling the extra strain of the heat, Mark and Pat talk about some tips and strategy to overcome both the physical and mental battle of the summer in order to thrive and find the strongest version of yourself They also talk about the importance of not giving the self doubt a platform in your mind. As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop ...
Episode 048: Master Your Mind with Ben Saah
June 25, 2020 11:00 - 58 minutes - 39.9 MBPat, Mark and special guest Benjamin Saah talk about the importance of harnessing your mindset to break through self-imposed limitations. Ben's journey and experience in fitness allow him to silence his own self doubts. You can find him at @benjamin_saah As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a comment or message. You can find the hosts of the Finding Strong Podcast: Pat: @Patxgates Michael: @Sonofragingjoe Mark: @bottenhornrunning and www....
Episode 047: Outlier
June 17, 2020 02:00 - 54 minutes - 37.3 MBIn this very casual conversation, Mark and Pat breakvdown their idea of an outlier mentality; what it takes to seperate yourself from the pack. They speak about vulnerable moments in their personal journey and Mark even breaks into a long-winded rant about the dangers of pitying yourself. As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a comment or message. You can find the hosts of the Finding Strong Podcast: Pat: @Patxgates Michael: @Sonofragingjoe M...
Episode 046: Q & A pt II
May 28, 2020 02:00 - 1 hour - 42.4 MBPat and Mark sit down to discuss questions asked by users over social media. They go over a wide range of topics such as recovering faster, fueling during long runs/races, and gaining and maintaining muscle mass with high volume training. As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a comment or message. You can find the hosts of the Finding Strong Podcast: Pat: @Patxgates Michael: @Sonofragingjoe Mark: @bottenhornrunning and www.markbottenhorn.com...
Episode 045: All In
May 19, 2020 11:00 - 57 minutes - 39.3 MBMark and Pat dive into some tactics they've used to sharpen their mental strength and resilience. The Co Hosts also demonstrate how Mark implements these into training and sharpening his athlete's for battle come race day or competition time. They discuss topics such as meditation, reframing, mantras, alter egos, personal contracts and more. As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a comment or message. You can find the hosts of the Finding Strong ...
Episode 044: Run Strong Blue Print
May 13, 2020 11:00 - 1 hour - 42.9 MBPeriodization, training structure, key workouts? All of this might sound intimidating, but it's the ultimate blueprint for success in endurance sports. Patrick and Mark jump on the podcast to talk about Mark's methods for building his athlete's programs, some explanation behind the methods, and a deep dive into what's required physiologically to find the strongest version of yourself. As always, if you enjoyed this episode please rate us on iTunes, share and drop us a comment or message. Y...
Episode 043: Brian Akers
May 07, 2020 02:00 - 51 minutes - 35.5 MBMark and Pat sit down with a very special guest, Brian - ultra endurance athlete, animal rights activist and host of the Flytrap Coalition Podcast. The trio discuss sustainability, podcasting, nutrition and planetary health as well as Brian's background in animal activism and why he chooses a cruelty free lifestyle. Brian is a dear friend of Patrick and Mark and the Finding Strong Community as well as one of Mark's inspirations in taking a kinder nutritional approach. You can find Brian as @...
Episode 042: Rise To The Occasion
April 30, 2020 11:00 - 54 minutes - 37.5 MBPat and Mark discuss the quarantine protocol for optimizing your home quarters and daily routine into a bustling and fruitful environment for bringing out the best version of yourself. If you want to train like a maniac, no stress - we want you to push your limits and materialize your wildest dreams. But we also know that we are only as strong as our weakest link. If you create an environment that fosters hard training, recovery and reduces stress you will be bulletproof. In the right enviro...
Episode 041: Base Week Breakdown
April 24, 2020 00:00 - 50 minutes - 34.8 MB130 miles in the last 11 days!? Mark, Pat and Michael analyze Mark's base training phase, purpose behind scheduling and the ins and outs of his runs. Pat is undertaking a new challenge to ward off those quarantine blues. Michael discusses his disappointment around Boston and world marathon major cancelations while being open the possible new opportunities that will come as a result. The boys of the Finding Strong Podcast offer up a challenge. This episode is brought to you by Prevail Botani...
Episode 040: Thrive: Quarantine Edition
April 15, 2020 02:00 - 47 minutes - 32.8 MBOn today's episode, Pat and Mark discuss ways to optimize your environment to foster performance, wellness and creativity. It may not seem like it at face value but joy, creativity, purposeful intent and good habits make us better athletes. Pat and Mark talk about their methods for developing positive habits, removing poisonous habits and planting the seeds that will lead to a bountiful harvest when social distancing measures are lifted. How can we optimize our time? Our nutrition? How can ...
Episode 040: Thrive: Quarantine Edition
April 15, 2020 02:00 - 47 minutes - 32.8 MBOn today's episode, Pat and Mark discuss ways to optimize your environment to foster performance, wellness and creativity. It may not seem like it at face value but joy, creativity, purposeful intent and good habits make us better athletes. Pat and Mark talk about their methods for developing positive habits, removing poisonous habits and planting the seeds that will lead to a bountiful harvest when social distancing measures are lifted. How can we optimize our time? Our nutrition? How can ...
Episode 039: Spread Love, Not Fear
April 09, 2020 02:00 - 1 hour - 43.5 MBIt is clear that people with underlying chronic illness are having worse outcomes associated with Covid 19. It's important to control any factors you can that could potentially limit the development of chronic disease. Patrick and Mark discuss the latest happenings and social distancing developments. During the episode Mark and Pat talk about how the pandemic has made them reflect on their personal health, lifestyle choices and contemplate their potential role in impacting others. This episo...
Episode 038: Stronger Together
March 31, 2020 02:00 - 51 minutes - 35.1 MBYour race is canceled, now what? Many of us have poured our heart and soul into training for an event to see it canceled. Races may be canceled, but it certainly it doesn't mean that your training is going to waste. Pat and Mark sit down and discuss it on today's podcast. They also take user questions, and discuss strategic training and nutrition adjustments based on the covid-19 quarantine time line. Mark and Pat also dive into some tactics they use to conquer their anxiety and uncertaint...