A Sixth Taste?

A Sixth Taste? With Dr. Nicole Garneau

From an early age I loved both science and entertaining. I did stand up comedy in my 4th grade talent show, and played the lead Andrew Sister in a high school production about the 1940s. And yet, I also learned the fungi (fun-guy) joke in 6th grade, won my share of science fairs, and by my sophomore year, had declared to my folks that I was going to be a geneticist. See, dreams do come true! I’m now doing what I love most, talking science and inspiration, and making people laugh full time.

Following high school, I loved my time on the banks of the old Raritan, completing my BA in Genetics at Rutgers College. I then took off a gap year to gain a sense of self, before going full force into my PhD in microbiology at Colorado State University. This led to a business internship with CSU Ventures, volunteering for the Colorado BioScience Association, and eventually a ten-year career as the curator and chair of the Health Sciences Department at the Denver Museum of Nature & Science.

And now, I’m honored to be recognized as one of the top 5 most influential young professionals in Colorado, a 2020 CiviCO Governors Fellow, and a serial entrepreneur. I live with my husband and daughter in Denver, and delight in immersing myself in nature when I’m not immersed in designing and customizing presentations and trainings for my corporate and nonprofit clients

www.drnicolegarneau.com

[email protected]

www.feednigfatty.com

[email protected]

Full Transcript 

Roy - Feeding Fatty (00:03):

Hello, and welcome to another episode of feeding fatty I'm Roy and I'm Terry. And of course, this podcast just Chronicles our journey, my journey, Terry supporting, helping me through the weight loss, getting healthy, getting exercise, and, you know, we are up and down and all over the place. And so, uh, you know, we have guests on from time to time to come in, help us with different perspectives, their opinion, some are going through what we are going through as well today. Uh, actually you are our first repeat guests. So that is, uh, uh, an award, I guess, that we'll have to hand out first repeat. Yes, she is our scientists next door, Dr. Nicole Garn new. Now she is recognized as one of the top five influential young professionals in Colorado and a 20, 20 Civico governor's fellow and serial entrepreneur. So, Nicole, thanks again for taking time out of your day.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (01:03):

It's, uh, it's really a good story. We met a long time. I mean, a long time, few months ago, talk the original, uh, the original message we wanted to have you on was for this, but we, after talking, we decided to go with the mindset and mindfulness and the five, uh, tips to your mental health fitness. And so, um, wanted to have you back. So today we're going to talk about, there are, I guess, five identified taste and you think that you have uncovered the six one. And so we're going to talk a little bit about that, but I do know you were the curator of a museum, and so you can tell us a little bit about your history and your research on this topic.

Dr. Nicole (01:50):

That sounds great. Thank you for having me back. I will take the, a word that sounds great. Yeah, either that, or you're a glutton. Carrie will take me with her to Hawaii. I will do it. Come on. That's right. I would never come home if I let y'all go down there together. That's true. I spent the last 10 years I having left, well, I guess left the museum a year ago, but I was there for 10 years with Denver museum of nature and science. And I was the curator and chair of the health sciences department. And for folks who aren't quite as familiar with science museums, just like art museums, they have curators. And those curators in science museums are responsible for doing research and having these collections. They usually come from their research in order to hold for the public. Good. And so it's a little unusual for a natural history museum to have someone who studies modern human biology.

Dr. Nicole (02:46):

And that is what I did there. And I specifically studied, um, taste and how taste, how taste is really a function, just like all of our senses are of, and evolution of the human species. Okay. So it was a really great way for us to think about the humans are not separate from nature. We are part of nature and just like all the other animals and species we have evolved as well. And so I specifically studied human house humans experience taste. Okay. Okay. So, so the five, 10, five tastes are sweet, sweet sour, salty learn and new mama. So those are the, so I joke around, I joke around that. It's kind of like, um, for golf fans out there, it's kind of like getting the green jacket, but those are the ones that have like they're, they're the masters. Everyone accepts them. They're great.

Dr. Nicole (03:41):

And then there's a lot of other really cool, possible tastes out there that, um, is starting to gain a lot more scientific evidence that it actually exist. So I think it might be worth me talking about how it tastes for the most part gets defined as a taste. Okay. Okay. And, and part of this is because a lot of times people confuse, tastes and smell different senses, different sensory organs. So tongue and soft palate have these receptors, which are like locking keys. Um, for the most part that are for taste versus smell, which is in your olfactory cavity, basically in your olfactory bulbs. Again, you have those receptors, those locks and keys, but for there for molecules that are aerosolized and are going to go to different parts of the brain. So this is really important. So that's one of the things we need to understand in our senses.

Dr. Nicole (04:31):

And particularly when thinking about tastes one, when you have that in your mouth, do you perceive it? Is there something that you're proceeding? Okay. Okay, too. So that's like the first one that's like sour, everyone agrees sour has a green jacket. Sour is a taste it's been around forever. Everyone agrees. Yeah. You know, you're tasting something so perception. And then from there you have to start digging in deeper. Um, molecular biologists want to understand cell biologists want to understand, do we know this, the cells in the sensory organ that hosts and are the homes of those lock and key receptors? Okay. So now we're starting to get into process.

Dr. Nicole (05:16):

And those receptors are those locks and keys. The shape of them matters. And the shape of them comes from our genetics. So our genetics is just our, our human genome is just a cookbook for our body. Cookbook has recipes, the human genome cookbook has genes and they do the same thing. The recipe tells you how to make something. The gene tells you how to make something. And just like maybe Roy, your mom's recipe for maybe chocolate cake is a little bit different than someone else's. Same thing. Our genes are a little bit different. So we all have the same genes, all of a sudden the same genes about 25,000 genes or recipes in our cookbook. Wow. Okay. Okay. Let's say any changes and these little like 0.1% differences, percent differences that, um, make us unique in ways we can see in ways we can't see.

Dr. Nicole (06:09):

And one of the ways we can't see as taste, so it changes the shape of that receptor. Okay. So let's bring it back. You put something in your mouth, right? All right. Listeners, you're eating something. You're perceiving it. Why am I perceiving that? That's cool. I'm proceeding it down at the tiny, tiny level. Those little tiny food molecules are breaking up and are interacting with your tongue by kind of being like a LA key that's coming in and unlocking that lock. And when that happens, a signal goes to the brain and the brain is perceiving it. And the brain makes the decision. You want to eat more of it or do you not want to eat more of it? Okay. All right. So we're, so for sour, we know you have a perception and excuse me, and we don't really know the genes. Really. We have an idea about what this, this receptor looks like, but we don't really know, but guess what?

Dr. Nicole (07:06):

Sour gets a green jacket. Okay. Salty, same thing. We're like close, but we don't quite understand totally how salt is working in humans. It's got a green jacket who mommy, which is savory tastes a protein speed, which we're all familiar with is the taste of sugar. We can all agree on that. We know that one bitter bitter, which is a taste of a particular molecules that usually associate more with, um, historically poison. Although we know there's a lot of things that are bitter, that aren't poisonous, that are very good for us. Like cruciferous vegetables. We understand the genetics of that. So we understand the recipe or the gene. We understand what it makes and what it looks like. And we understand how that connects in those tastes cells and how the taste cells then connect to the brain. We know where it goes in the brain. Okay. So those ones are like the standards. So we're like, okay, those guys, they got it. So on incomes, new guys. So if we had to throw it out there and I wonder what your listeners would think right now, what are some things that people are like, well, why isn't that a taste? Is that a taste? What about this? Is that a taste? So what kind of things would you guys think about the could be tastes

Tery - Feeding Fatty (08:18):

Fat, fat? What else? I don't know. Sugar and salt are the tea for me. I have them all. They fall sugar salty or no goods.

Dr. Nicole (08:35):

Well, there's some preliminary evidence that's growing for a couple other ones, certain minerals like calcium, the pure taste of water, which would have helped us evolutionarily. For sure. Although you're alive, then you become as a devoid of something and therefore it's pure or is it your taste appear? So there's less evidence for, and then fat. And that's the one that I worked on for a few years as part of my tenure at the Denver museum of nature and science. And that was through a partnership with Purdue university. And I worked with, um, a scientist there, Rick Madis. And he has been working on fat tastes for 30 plus years. Wow. And there's a few other folks in the industry in terms of the field of tastes research, who have also been trying so hard to get forth enough evidence that the taste of fat be considered the six tastes. So that's what I thought we could dive into today or about that.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (09:32):

Okay. Before we get too far off, but just a couple of questions that I had thought about while you're talking, number one is, um, can your taste or your smell throw the other one off? If something smells like something and then you get into your mouth, not what you thought. But then the other thing is, um, our, our tastes genetically pre-programmed. Are they learned or is it some combination of those? Because some people like sweet. Some people like, you know, prefer sweet, prefer salty. Cause the other weird thing is we've had this conversation many times, like, uh, uh, the big pickles that are sour. Okay. And she loves them. She even puts, she puts some pickle juice in something we were drinking and it made me think like, okay, so back when we were kids, after you played a baseball game, you got a free snack. Well, the pattern I noticed even then is, you know, the boys would get the snow cone or a piece of bubble gum or something like that. Girls always got those sour pickles and I just never could stand the taste. So I know that's a whole lot of information, but yeah, it, it almost seemed like there were some genetic, uh, some genetic line that was drawn there.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (10:52):

Give me a deal, pickle, meet snow cone with a little bit a Lima. Oh my goodness. I am in heaven.

Dr. Nicole (11:01):

See Terry, we got to go Hawaii.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (11:03):

Oh, come on.

Dr. Nicole (11:07):

All right. So let's bring it back. Okay. Right out of the gate. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like we would probably put the cart before the horse because we started diving directly into a deep dive of how tastes works. But I think we want to bring it back to how humans perceive flavor as a whole. Okay. Let's break it down from there because some of the questions you just asked for are going to be answered when we look at it from that perspective. Okay. So the first thing is flavor in the brain flavor is just a perception of reality and that perception leads to a behavior. So let's think about it from that point of view. So now where's the brain getting its clues to have this perception of reality right out of the gate. We know that it's going to be coming from the census.

Dr. Nicole (11:55):

So our five senses plays a huge role, of course, in figuring out how our brain is perceiving the flavor of something we're eating or drinking. Okay. And that's everything from before you even put something in your mouth, you're seeing it, you're smelling it. And it's called ortho nasal olfaction. So through the nostrils, you might be hearing something sizzle or hearing the pop of a can that plays in and you're touching it usually with your, with your fingers, you're touching something. And you're getting an idea of what the texture is. Your brain is already said in real time, integrating that information before it even goes into your mouth and saying, Hmm, have I, is this new? Have I seen this before? Did I have an adverse reaction to this before? Okay. Did you drink too much? And for up to now, you don't eat a certain food.

Dr. Nicole (12:42):

Right? Nobody loves it. Or do I have some sort of learned predilection? Like last time I ate this, um, you know, I got, I was able to do all this work. Okay. Caffeine, I think is one of the most bitter molecules known to man. Did you guys have caffeine this morning and wake, you brought up two and a half cups today. Okay. Right. So bitter, you should not like coffee. We love it because we've learned like, okay, yes, this is going to lead me to wake my butt up and get things done. I need to get done. Especially during the dark season when it's like, it doesn't wake us up. Right. So it's taking it all this tension. And then it's pulling in other things like, Hmm, what's my hunger level. What's my salt level right now. What's my so nest is where some of the cravings come in.

Dr. Nicole (13:29):

And boy, were you talking about? And then finally, you're going to start bringing in some of the things, the things that scientists really have a hard time studying, which is the human element. How does your cultural background bring it to this nostalgia memories? Things like the food hasn't even gone in your mouth yet. Right? So now what's in your mouth. You have the sense of taste, which is the sweet sour, salty, bitter, umami, possibly fatty acids. And possibly some of these other guys you're getting retro nasal olfaction, which retro means behind olfaction of course, is the nose. So retro nasal. So it's basically, as you chew food, you're warming it up. It's getting aerosolized and it goes up the back of your throat to your olfactory bulbs. Okay. So for someone who's like, I don't understand what you're saying. Dr. Nicole, did you ever laugh so hard that root beer or milk came out your notes? That's the pattern. Okay.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (14:29):

Well, I'll tell you the other one that I, then I always think about when you say that is, um, we've Sabi. Cause if you get so much, it will, it seemed like it will burn all the way. The back. You throw them back up into your nose.

Dr. Nicole (14:42):

Yes. Which it's almost like we've met each other before. Last thing that happens in your mouth, which is melts field, which is the sense touch, it's still part of your touch system. So part of the five senses, but it's going to be pain, which is what's going on with those Sabi. You're actually, nociceptors nociceptors are your pain receptors in your body, which is why your face gets red. Your nose starts running because your capillaries are starting to open. And so your everything just starts going haywire depending on how sensitive you are. Um, so it's pain, temperature and texture is, is, um, the sense of mouth feel in your mouth, the sense of touch. Okay? So then your brain is still integrating and it's like, cool. Now I have these new clues again, are they new? Are they old? Are they what's going on? And then your brain is going to your brain is going to decide, do you eat it? Do you spit it out? Do you eat more and so on and so forth? So the questions around is this genetically determined, taste preferences are inmate at birth babies. I always joke babies. Don't like IPA's

Speaker 4 (15:53):

Yeah.

Dr. Nicole (15:53):

Okay. Babies. Don't like bitter. So you were born, not liking bitter, not liking salt and sour. Some are in the middle. And we talked a little bit about this. When we, uh, in our, the last episode we did together on the mental health fitness steps, but then umami and sweet. Those guys, you have a predilection for right out of the gate. So in the womb, these are forming. So there's a genetic basis of these. That's very different than no smells are learned. There was no believe it or not, there is no one smell that everyone in the world says, that's we all agree. That's pleasant. And there's no one smell. There's some exceptions possibly. I won't get into them. That for the most part, humans, all agree is not pleasant. And so smell is learned. Now we're talking about not the ability to smell. We're talking about liking. So this is a big difference. There's your ability to detect something and that's genetic. And then if you like it, and at what level you like it for taste right out of the gate, you're born with it for smell. You learn it over the years and, and really you learn it in the wound first. And you also, it looks like there's some evidence that you learned to appreciate a good spicy food, or have a tolerance for spicy food in the world as well.

Speaker 4 (17:19):

Okay. The dogs are protesting. The dogs are saying they are so mad. They're, they're kind of shut up in a room. And, uh, they don't like that.

Dr. Nicole (17:32):

I feel like, you know, I know I had my, I had to take the kid and the dog looked professional.

Speaker 4 (17:41):

Um,

Dr. Nicole (17:42):

So Roy, there's not a connection in terms of the genetics. So, um, X, Y which versus X, X, X, Y makes the guy gal in terms of the genetic sex of a baby, it doesn't, there's not these genes aren't on those genes. So there's some, maybe some other connection that's going on that that could be explored about why ladies were choosing the salty sour product. And, um, there's a variety of things that could go into that. Going back to hunger level and macro micronutrients. Typically this stuff is going to be picked when you sweat a lot, or you need to do something to balance homeostasis. So that's why a lot of people drink athletes, drink pickle juice to replenish their electrolytes.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (18:26):

Oh, okay. Never heard of that order after their sports practice. Right. Exactly. Concentrate. Yeah. They were smarter. I can tell you that for sure. They still are.

Dr. Nicole (18:38):

Can we answered the pickle question? And we talked about it from the genetic perspective. There was one other one that I think you asked that I can't remember if he answered

Roy - Feeding Fatty (18:45):

The, uh, the one was just the confusion between, uh, you know, as you're bringing it up, the smell may signal one way or the other where your taste is actually something different.

Dr. Nicole (18:58):

Yeah. So we're beginning to really understand what's called, um, crossmodal sensory interactions, which is how does one sense either literally affect physically or cognitively in the brain affect the perception of something else? So let me give you an example of that. And this is, um, these are some of the things that when I work with food companies, they like to know which is, for example, in the U S we associate vanilla cinnamon and strawberry, and the color red, Mrs. Sweet. So I can give you a drink that has no sugar in it and make it smell like strawberry and make it red. And you're going to tell me, this is sweet. Wow. Interesting cultural it's learn. So that's cognitive. So that's happening in the brain. So other things that can happen is that that can happen. That's more physical is for example, spicy. When you have spicy food, there's evidence to show that when you activate mouthfeel and that pain reception in your mouth, it does something to increase.

Dr. Nicole (20:09):

I don't know if it's your awareness or is the actually the, the, the taste cells sending signals to the brain. We don't know where taste and smell perception goes up, which is why you can use spicy food, add more spices as you're decreasing salt and sugar and things, and still get that same reward. So yes, there's interactions between all of the sensory systems and there's even interactions within sensory systems. So chefs know this very well. You add a little bit of salt, it picks up the sweet, and it makes an, it decreases the bitter sweet and bitter D uh, our antagonist. They decrease each other. So not only are your senses interacting in some way, shape or form, and your brain is integrating it, which is wild. Even within one sense, like the sense of taste you're having these interactions that are occurring. That almost don't make sense because you're like, no, I know I have this much self, and I know I have this much sweet, but I'm getting actually this feeling of it. Right.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (21:11):

And that's a, it's a good one to talk about for just a minute too, because there's, um, a major fast food chain that along the way they figured that out is that if they would soak their French fries in sugar water, then it becomes addictive. And it does. I mean, it's hard if you know that and you taste it, you can kind of pick that up. But for years and years, you really, I never picked up that sweetness of them. Now, I understand why they are so addictive, not only the salt, but the sugar, that's it.

Dr. Nicole (21:50):

Because now you're having now, it's kind of like, you're being for lack of a better word, kind of tricked because it's high. It's not high enough that you're cognitively perceiving it only because there's a lot of other things going on. Usually if it's drive through or something like that, you're eating in the car. So your brain's paying attention to other things. You've got the salt. So you're not really being like, these are sweet French fries, and yet you're having a physiological reaction that says, Oh, that was energy. Yeah. And it used to be really hard to find. So he was like eating sugar, even when you don't even realize it.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (22:23):

Yeah. Oh yeah. And the other thing, I guess the converse of that is, uh, when we, when me personally, I will say, when I cut my sugar, when I'm watching my intake only, maybe eating more natural sugars, like, uh, you know, fruit and stuff, then all the sudden that the sweet, the natural sweetness of foods is very, very amplified. All of a sudden you'll eat something, one thing. And I think it's carrots that are very noticeable, but you eat them. You're like, wow, that was just like almost eating a candy bar. It was so sweet.

Dr. Nicole (22:59):

Yes. And I have many, a friends who study what's going on with dopamine in the brain and the reward system that is part of when you have intake of sugar. And, and it's true there, that reward system, you basically need to go higher and higher at that hit. So when you start decreasing, your perception is going to change with it. Especially if you're doing it mindfully, it's going to change your behavior, which is your perception and so on and so forth because it's beauty, it's either a beautiful cycle or a negative feedback loop of perception and mindfulness and what you're doing, changes behavior and behavior changes, perception, and so on and so forth. And I've noticed the same thing, um, with, with tracking, we talked about this quite a bit. Um, last time with tracking food, I'm like, Oh, wow, that has that in it. And it's making, when I do decide to do it, not out of habit, not reaching for things out of habit. When I decide to eat that peanut butter, I don't even know if it was peanut butter, chocolate, something from Coldstone.

Speaker 4 (24:00):

Well, that's good

Dr. Nicole (24:03):

Allergies. Oh my gosh. But when I decide to do that, because it's special because I was out with my five-year-old and we went to sushi together, and then we were going to go see a movie. The reward I got from that was out of control. Whereas before I used to just eat those all the time and be like, Oh, no big deal. So their behavior can change. Perception can change behavior in a very positive feedback loop when you're mindful of it. And those decreasing of taking in both salt and sugar, both of those things, your body then recognizes that and realizes that, um, you, you don't need the same concentration in order to get that same hit. And probably, I wonder, I wonder why two for salt for me, things too, if I go, if I get takeout food now is he's so salty to me. Right?

Speaker 4 (24:47):

Exactly. Yes. Anything pack all that package stuff. It's just, so it just tastes so different now that now that we know everything that's in it

Roy - Feeding Fatty (24:56):

And she bought some, uh, I don't know what they're called. They're like more they're blue, natural chips, I guess maybe it's yeah. Maybe a marketing gimmick, but supposedly they're a little better for you on carbs than regular. But, uh, when we had a bag of those, it was like, wow, that was like eating a block of salt is exactly what I thought, you know, because we had been watching our salt intake so closely that, and it really wasn't that much when we looked at the label, but just, just a little bit of elevation in the intake really wasn't.

Speaker 4 (25:31):

Yeah. And they were even, I think they were even, there were some that were cell-free I've gotten both, you know, that had just lightly salted, but the cell-free ones were good too. It was just the current we needed the crunch. Yeah.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (25:42):

I don't want to deteriorate too far off the subject. Just one more thing while we're talking about this is that, uh, you know, when I, a couple years ago, when I was diagnosed with, um, diabetes, I kind of goofed around with not really understanding the impacts of carbs and how much you ate when you ate them, all that. So, you know, after a couple months I went back to the doctor and he's like, what are you doing? He's like, yeah, if you haven't fixed or changed anything, I'm like, yeah. So anyway, he told me, that's when he told me, he's like, stay between this level of carbs, which was pretty low. So, um, he did that on like a Wednesday or Thursday. And then Saturday, I was out in the yard and I thought, I really thought I was done. I thought my blood pressure was so high.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (26:27):

And I felt like my head was fixing the top of my head was going to blow off and went up and got my blood pressure checked. I mean, I was scared. So I made an appointment, went in Monday and he was just laughing. He's like, you know, carbs are like drugs. He said, they are addictive and you just coming down off of them. Oh my God. But it was the worst feeling. But, you know, that's, that's, I guess that's what gets some of us like me in trouble, because you become addicted to, you know, that salt, that sugar, and then you need more and more and more until you just do too much. Oh yeah.

Dr. Nicole (27:04):

Yup. And then, like we talked about it's there there's starts with what's going on in the genetics and how you're even detecting it. And then from there, it's the things that you've taught your brain. Yeah. And sometimes we teach our brain is not the right things that we should be. Yep. Yeah. In fact, there's some really cool research I found fascinating, which was, and I can't remember the researcher's name now. I think it was at a Florida where they looked at how much somebody's anticipated the reward of a milkshake. And they were looking at it from lean, overweight and obese as a point of taking in carbohydrates and then how much reward they got from it. And it was this terrible cycle of that. The obesity was leading to a higher thought of reward, anticipation of reward, and then not hitting it when you ate it and then needing, and then wanting more. And it was, and it was a study that was done with, um, teenage girls, which was really fascinating. And I just thought, Oh my gosh. And then there was another study they did where you can call the same thing, healthy or treat same exact thing. And your is going to be like, and I don't want one that's healthy. That's the safe milkshake. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So some really easy neuroscience that, that I feel like the more you know about, you're like, Oh no, I'm going to retrain my brain.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (28:40):

Pay more attention, be more mindful. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nicole (28:43):

And that's what you're onto is the mindfulness, not only in what and why you want it and when, and making that as decision and not out of habit, but also then the mindfulness while you're eating and really letting your brain be like, wow. Yeah, this is really good for what it is and not, and not, um, not having it go down so quick that you're not even paying attention.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (29:04):

Yeah. That's another good thing to kind of hit on too, is as I am an extremely fast or was a fast eater, I've learned to slow down, but you know, I grew up with, you know, there's a bunch of guys that we, we rodeo together and went down the road. And so whenever, you know, there'd be eight or 10 guys. And if you, if there was a bite left on your plate, if they would, if they got through first, they would eat it. And so you're like, yeah, it was self preservation. You know, you just had to eat as fast as you possibly could to get it, get your meal down. And, uh, that stuck with me over the years. It's and sometimes I catch myself as how I'm eating, but I think that helps us to slow down and mindfully taste the food, the texture, you know, the what is it? Is it salty? Is it sweet and try to, um, uh, enjoy it, I guess, is that why I get the stink-eye sometimes when we're finished and have dinner?

Dr. Nicole (30:04):

Oh my goodness. One of the things that comes up too, is the slower, the slower, more mindful you eat. It's not just about what's in feeling it in the mouth and the taste, but you're actually having better air flow between your mouth and your nose. So you get a lot more perception of a Romo's, which makes things more complicated, which, you know, complex in your brain, right. Which leads to higher levels of safety. So

Roy - Feeding Fatty (30:27):

There's a little bit of delay too, from, from the, I guess the receptors that tell you you're full. So, you know, what else I've heard is if you eat the slower you eat, you give that time to catch up and sing the sin signal, where if you eat fast, you just kinda eat past it and you get the signal somewhere down the road that, Hey, I'm full. But that was about 15 minutes ago.

Dr. Nicole (30:51):

Yep. Yep. I think you're totally right with all of that. And that was the hardest thing that I had when I started working with a nutrition coach. The hardest thing that I have is understanding portion controls because I would eat so fast and I realized that exactly what you said, boy, when I slowed down, I don't have seconds cause I'm actually already fall. Right.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (31:11):

Yeah. And it's just, I've, I've learned to it's even if I can eat the right amount of food, if I eat it off the same time or eat it later in the evening, so we have to be mindful of the quantity and portion size as well. But so how can we take these, um, the taste and how can we, I guess, use that to our advantage to try to eat right? And, or maybe even look at how we could not fall into the trap of eating, eating wrong or too much, but none of the knowledge of what we know

Dr. Nicole (31:45):

Yeah. From the taste perspective, I think the biggest thing that helps us a starting point is just recognizing and not judging how many tablespoons of sugar do you take in a day? Like just really understanding. And I'm not talking like, you know, nobody eats a tablespoon of sure. Okay. Maybe we'll do, I don't know. Most people don't yet, but understanding the sugar that's in what you eat and just starting there. Same thing for salt. Although salt is so, so much harder. I've had a much easier time limiting sugar than I've been able to limit salt, but they both are just get a feel for it. Like, okay, what am I taking in? And from there recognizing what is the, the not only filling but fulfilling for you. And usually the way that can work is by, by doing it mindfully, which we've talked about, you're going to get more of the hits of the more fulfilling, like protein.

Dr. Nicole (32:40):

So making sure you're getting that protein, but doing it in a way where your, whatever, your protein sources, you're doing it a little in a dry Browning situation so that you get that Brown crust. Okay. Okay. That's called the mired reaction and that's an interaction with some of the sugars and that's going on with, with some of the fat and a love of water content that is going to give you a huge hit of umami. And that umami hit is you tells your brain, Oh, this is the good stuff. Like this is high density, high, high, good caloric protein. So you want to pay attention more to those things and create your meals more around that big thick, wonderful, juicy, savory umami flavor, maybe a little bit of sugar, maybe a little bit of salt, and then really play on the spices in order to, to bring in, um, aromatics.

Dr. Nicole (33:38):

You really want to get the complex and complexity of the smells and then the textures. So textures play a big role in you figuring out like, Oh, does this feel full or not? Which is part of the reason why, even though I'm trying to get a hundred grams of protein a day, sometimes I can't get it and I'll do a protein shake. The non chewing means I'm not sending those six to my brain and my stomach that these things are coming and it can have a feedback that means you're not going to feel it. Not only is it not filling, but not, it's not fulfilling. Right. Right. Well, so that's how we can think of it from a taste perspective is how can you kick up the mommies? This is going to be for savory dishes, kick up the umami for non savory dishes. Like thinking more breakfast, the creamier a non-fat dairy product is for example, your brain will think it's sweeter.

Dr. Nicole (34:31):

Hmm. Okay. So, um, really want to go for, if you get, if you get like the non-fat European style yogurts that are like, you can just pour them, your brain's like, what is that? Right. If you get the Greek one, it's 0% fat, your brain is like, wow, that tastes sweeter. That is more fulfilling that. Yeah. So it's, it's tricking your brain in a lot of ways kind of like food companies do, but you're going to do it for good reasons. Yeah. But you're doing it in order to have your brain and your body say this is filling and fulfilling. And there's ways that you could trigger by doing that. I do want to mention that we talked about the taste of fat and there's a lot of confusion about the taste of fat. So when you think of fat, what foods come to mind? Like what fatty foods,

Speaker 4 (35:23):

Steak, chocolate, steak, fat, steak, fat, and stock that I don't know. Well, I'm getting really hungry are talking about this big doozy.

Dr. Nicole (35:32):

So all of those things that were just that we just talked about, and this is what the Americans will think about fats. Those are saturated fats. There isn't a lot of evidence that there is a taste for saturated fats. The taste of fat that has been studied for 30 plus years is unsaturated fats. Okay. And it's really interesting because by themselves they don't taste great. And they have the ability to go rancid pretty quickly, which you might've noticed. Like if you open a bar like olive oil or some of these other better fats, you're like, Whoa, like they tell you, keep it in the fridge. Not the oil is hard, but so they go bad pretty quickly. So the taste of fat that we have evidence for is unsaturated, fatty acids. And when you can taste it, it's usually an indication that it's gone bad.

Dr. Nicole (36:24):

So originally we thought, of course, you would need to taste this. These are good fats. Your body needs them. You can't make them. And it turns out that they are so often incorporated with other things. The only time that you can taste them really is if they've gone bad and it's an indication to you to not to eat it cause it's rancid. So that's our, you agree about why we've evolved to taste that in a survival perspective. Um, and it's totally mind blowing because normally you would think, no, that's something we need. So we should like the taste of it. Right. But when you taste it in your food, the particular molecule is the actual fatty acid molecules. So I'm not talking about like the case of avocado when you have avocado oil or the taste of macadamia, not when you have macadamia nut oils. Like those, those are the main flavors that are incorporated there. I'm actually talking to the pure taste of the fatty acids, like linolenic acid or leic acid. For the most part, it looks like we evolved to only taste them when they're not good anymore. So don't eat something that's been hanging out for a long time and get sick and die.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (37:33):

Yeah. And I guess that's part of assume that ha why the taste evolved or we had some to begin with and why they've evolved is that survival. I mean, we needed the, I guess the meat had to be cured. So it was salty to let us know it was probably good to eat. And then the,

Dr. Nicole (37:51):

Well, it would be wave before that. Right. So our developers are developing taste. The salt would have been long before humans were curing things with salt. Oh, Oh it wasn't. Yeah. So it wasn't, um, an easel easy to get in in that time for that. Yeah. So it was really interesting to think about that. When you think about our teams from the perspective of survival and evolution, you can really think to yourself, it's doing one of two things. It's either driving me towards something that I need to survive in a harsh environment, which we do no longer live in, or it's protecting me from something that could potentially hurt me, which also doesn't serve us because there's so many vegetables that are better, for example, that aren't poisonous and yeah. And you know, thinking about unsaturated fats, it's a big mystery for us to understand why it's an adversive taste. And when we know we need it, but it's because it had to do more with a complex food potentially going bad. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then again, salt and sour, these weird things in the middle that it depends on the concentration about whether it depends on the concentration of if you detect it at what concentration and then at what concentration do you like it the best. Yeah. Well, interesting.

Speaker 4 (39:11):

Yeah. Now I'm on brain overload now. Sensory overload. Oh my goodness.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (39:21):

Yeah. And that's what I've got to figure out is how, you know, to turn these vegetables into something that I like, because it's just, I cannot make myself like them. I just, it's hard. And I have to give Terry credit, you know, she does a lot of, uh, seasoning and a lot of things to try to make them more. But you know, some of it, like you said, it's that texture, some of it is the knowing, you know, sometimes she won't tell me what we're fixing to have, but it's, you know, there's a lot of stuff that goes into this eating, besides just the, you know, the actual taste of the food that doesn't hurt it. But there's, you know, I think the psychological part about just vegetables and herbs, I agree. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:05):

And he's still, he still will eat it. You know, he still says, Oh, this is the best thing I've ever had before I take the first bite, you know?

Dr. Nicole (40:13):

Yeah. And that brings us back to what we talked about right. At the beginning, Roy, you are basically saying, I am in charge of my behaviors. I'm making these choices and it's a long slog. It feels like, but those choices that you make in your behaviors are gonna eventually start retraining your brain and that perception will change. And you'll get to the point where all of a sudden you realize, Oh my gosh, I guess, do we, I don't even put salt on that anymore. I don't add sugar down. Yup. Um,

Roy - Feeding Fatty (40:42):

Now I was the worst about that. You know, salt went on everything before we even tasted it salt, pepper, but now, um, uh, very rarely, you know, we do while we're cooking, but not at once. It's been plated, no more putting salt on it, but yeah,

Speaker 4 (40:56):

Not as much, I mean just a little bit now, but when we first started this, you know, so many months, I don't even know how many months it seems like forever. Um, but uh, when we first started, he w you know, we'd cut out all salt and just tried to flavor it with, but you have to have a little bit, huh?

Dr. Nicole (41:18):

Yup. And that's what I'm finding now, now that I've been really patient with myself and I've, and I've worked on understanding and being mindful of, you know, what it is, I'm putting my body and enjoying it at that moment. I'm realizing yes. I can add a little Brown sugar to my oatmeal. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's fine. I can add a little salt here. Yeah. Um, yeah, I think, you know, the real take home is that our brains are these amazing machines and flavors in the brain, and you have the ability to do this, to stop it being habit and, and start started being that you're making these active choices that will then retrain your brain. And I think that's good. I really do think that's the big take home of understanding the flavors in the brain and how all the senses play in and all the five plus tastes fit in. Yeah.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (42:02):

So like a regular habit, they will say 21 days to retrain your brain. Do you feel that the same goes with food, but you know, something that we do every day, you know, we may not eat, uh, broccoli cooked the same way three times a day, all day, every day for 21 days. So we suspect that it may take our, take us longer to retrain for taste.

Dr. Nicole (42:28):

I do for two reasons. One, because like you said, um, humans crave variety in what we eat. And so this isn't something where you can train yourself to drink a glass of water every morning, as soon as you wake up and you're going to be good. Right. Which is also a good habit. And also because you're fighting against hundreds of thousands of years of operation, so that doesn't turn off without you really being intentional about it and help you get there. Like that. It's just not going to happen. Yeah.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (42:59):

Well, Dr. Nicole, again, it's been such a pleasure visiting and uh, every time we talk, I feel that you and Terry must be Ken at some level. And just, we do need to go on a trip. I'm telling you, I, if I could suck you away, my suitcase, I certainly would, uh,

Dr. Nicole (43:18):

Well leave the dogs and the kids with Roy and stuff.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (43:21):

Oh my God. That's right. Yeah. I was asking her, who are you more worried about surviving this two weeks? Me, you know, me or the dogs. I'm not the one I hope we can all make it, but well, tell everybody how they can reach out and get a hold of you and what you can do. I know that you do a lot of speaking. I know you do a lot of working with a food company, so just let everybody know how they could reach out.

Dr. Nicole (43:44):

All right. Um, folks can find me on Instagram at dot Garneau, doc G a R N E U. And then from there is where I do lots of different postings and same hash, same handle on Facebook too. And my Facebook stuff, as Terry knows, is kind of the more personal vulnerable side of doc Garneau, where I do a lot more around, um, food and speaking and consulting on my Instagram.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (44:08):

Okay, great. So what is something we asked you this last time, but I it's been a couple of days, so I've kind of forgot, but what is a tool, habit ritual? What is something that you do every day, either in your business life or personal life that you don't feel that you could do without?

Dr. Nicole (44:26):

I can't believe I'm gonna say this because I was so scared to start working out again. I will never put working out second. I do it. I always say that the do the hardest thing first. And when I was, you know, more in my corporate land, that was very different, right? Like writing reports or doing something that you were dreading. Right. And now it's not that it makes it any easier, but I feel like I have somehow more mental confidence in myself and I'm showing up. And so I do my workout first thing, and don't get me wrong. The days that I rest days, I'm like, Oh, hallelujah. But I can't even let me say that because it just, that's not been my thing. And it still is the hardest thing I need to do. But when I do that, everything else is icing on the cake after the day. Yeah.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (45:14):

Yeah. And there's been a lot of talk about that, you know, between us and some of our other guests lately is just that taking the time for yourself to get out. Even if it's just a walk, clear your head. It's so good for not only ruined well, it's good for your health. It's good to reduce stress. And it's also good for your creativity. That's when, uh, that's I think that's when we take a brain break and just do something like that. That's a little mindless that's when we have some of our better ideas.

Dr. Nicole (45:45):

Absolutely. Yep. So I'm continuing to do the hard thing first, but that keeps evolving as my life changes and right now it's working out. Yeah.

Roy - Feeding Fatty (45:52):

That's good. That's awesome. All right. Well, thanks again. We look forward to talking to you again soon. So hope you'll come back and join us again. But, uh, again, this is feeding fatty. You can find us at www dot feeding, fatty.com. We're on all the major platforms, iTunes, uh, Google, Google play Spotify, uh, Pandora. If we're not on your major platform that you listen to, please reach out. Let us know. Also, if you have a good story about weight loss, getting healthy, we'd love to hear from you. Or if you're a professional that works with people, helping them out, love to hear from you as well. Also, you can find us on the normal places, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and also YouTube we have now started. I don't advertise that enough, but we've now started putting recordings of our tapings up live. So go check us out there until next time. Take care of each other. I'm Roy

Dr. Nicole (46:50):

I'm Terry. Thank you, Dr. Nicole. Great to see you.

www.feedingfatty.com