Systematic Leader
198 episodes - English - Latest episode: 1 day ago - ★★★★★ - 39 ratingsLeaders need processes and systems to make good decisions. The Systematic Leader podcast interviews leaders (CEOs, Authors, and Enterpreneurs). They share their best frameworks so you can make better decisions in your business.
“Developing the habit of mastering the multiple models which underlie reality is the best thing you can do.” Charlie Munger
I interview experts in their fields so you can learn and apply their frameworks to your business.
Hi, I'm Karl Staib. The creator of the Dig to Fly method and author of Bring Gratitude. I struggled for years with making quality decisions because I didn't have a system in place. Once I developed routines that worked for my personality type that's when my business took off.
I hope you enjoy the podcast and if you have any questions, just reach out at DigtoFly.com.
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Episodes
Simple Framework for Habit Change
July 18, 2023 11:00 - 25 minutes - 23.6 MBIn this episode, you’ll learn about how you can create a monthly framework to help you improve in a small sliver of your life. I call this the SOP Framework for Habit Change. Just the act of writing down how the steps of how I will change my brain’s operating system. Here is the breakdown of what you’ll learn: Why I created the SOP Framework for Habit Change. Six main areas of your life that you can work on improving. (Health, Work/Career, Finance, Relationship, Personal growth, Hobb...
Commit to Fewer Things with Jay Clouse
July 11, 2023 11:00 - 48 minutes - 39.1 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn why committing to fewer things will help you grow faster. Jay Clause is an entrepreneur who helps creative entrepreneurs grow their businesses. One of my favorite stories is when he explains why he focuses on fewer things. Highlights from the interview: Jay shares why he wanted to be good at sports and he never was really good. His internal motivation to be good at something. Why he only does things that he can be competitively great at. Committing t...
Getting Spiritually Fit with Colleen Wainwright
July 04, 2023 22:07 - 53 minutes - 42.1 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn how to understand underlying habits to get to the heart of the issue. Colleen is a writer and vice president for a technology company. One of my favorite parts of this interview is the story of why she buys board shorts when she doesn’t feel spiritually fit. Highlights from the interview: Colleen explains why she is so stubborn. How she uses failure to grow. Widening our views. Work is about communication. Improving her listening skills so she build...
Transferable Skills with Kevin Monroe
June 27, 2023 11:00 - 57 minutes - 44.8 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn why you should trust in your skills to help you make shifts in your career that bring you new opportunities. These transferable skills will help you make important shifts in your career. Kevin Monroe is the creator of the Grateful App. One of my favorite parts of this interview is the story of when Kevin was in the final interview for his dream job and was asked the deciding question and he knew he answered it wrong. Highlights from the interview: Lea...
Doing Something Wrong for Years
June 20, 2023 22:34 - 27 minutes - 24.8 MBHave you ever done something the wrong way for years and then it’s only after a deep discussion did you realize your mistake. This recently happened to me at the Craft and Commerce conference. I was explaining how I help my clients dig into the things that gets them stuck and create systems to get better results. As I was explaining what I did for my clients he asked, “So you create SOPs (standard operating procedures) for people?” I smiled. “”Yes! That’s exactly what I do!” I ...
Joy Spotting with Jeanette Cajide
June 13, 2023 15:55 - 54 minutes - 43.3 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about building your resilience so you can do things that help you break through your fear. Jeanette Cajide is Technology Executive and author. One of my favorite parts is how she learned to ask for help. Highlights from the interview: Learn about Jeanette’s big ambitions. What her biggest regret is in life. Building resilience in life so you can handle difficult situations. Understanding what you can control and what you can’t control. Why a cold pl...
Breaking Through the Safety Zone with Melanie Benson
June 06, 2023 11:00 - 57 minutes - 45.4 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about how you can break through your safety zone and do purpose-driven work that lights you up inside. Melanie Benson is a coach, speaker, and author. She helps people amplify their message. Highlights from the interview: Why Melanie made a huge shift in her career when she was coached instead of managed. How her whole life recalibrated with a five minute conversation with her manager. Aligning our energy with what helps us feel expansive. Why she wa...
Save Time by learning to Time Travel
May 30, 2023 11:00 - 18 minutes - 16.8 MBNow, I know what you're thinking. "Ugh, priorities. That sounds boring." But hear me out. Priorities can actually be pretty exciting when you think about it. They're like a flight plan for your life! At the end of the day, you get to time travel for a few minutes. You land your plane, put out your time travel spaceship (AKA your reflection device, journal, recorder, etc.), and see what could be improved for your next flight tomorrow. And who doesn't love a good flight plan? “The...
Core Principles Decision-Making with Bruce Ballengee
May 23, 2023 11:00 - 54 minutes - 42.9 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about reframing the problem so you find the best solution. Bruce Ballengee is the founder of Pariveda Solutions. One of my favorite parts of this interview is his story about how he and his wife were arguing in the car. The interesting part is how his wife reframed the situation to help his children see how arguing can be done well. Highlights from the interview: Why Bruce thought he wasn’t smart enough to follow in his Mom or Dad’s career path. How to...
Get to the Core Issue with Brent Schmidt
May 16, 2023 11:00 - 55 minutes - 43.8 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about how to get to the core of an issue. Brent Schmidt is a consultant that helps companies solve the real jobs in a business that make a big impact. I love the story he shares about how his two girls help keep him grounded. Highlights from the interview: Brent’s origin story. How he became highly attuned to other people’s emotions. Becoming the seeker in his career. Understanding how his superpower has helped him in his career. Understanding your ...
Leadership Scorecard with Sara Nay
May 09, 2023 11:00 - 51 minutes - 42 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about how you can improve your leadership skills through a simple process that Sara uses. Sara Nay is the COO of Duct Tape Marketing. I loved the story that she shared about raising a young child and how it led her to get more help at work. Highlights from the interview: Why we should follow our natural interest. The power of curiosity is how she stays on top of everything new that is happening in the marketing industry. Developing good decision-makin...
The Biggest Influence on Your Decisions
May 02, 2023 11:00 - 22 minutes - 20.6 MBThe true value of digging deep is understanding yourself just a little better. You become more comfortable in your own skin, which allows you to make better decisions. I want you to have a fun and structured way to dig into your mindset and better understand yourself so that you can make decisions that align with your values. You can have a life filled with less anxiety and more energy because you focus on the things that matter to you. You might be afraid of digging deep because...
The Procrastination Advantage with Catherine Morgan
April 25, 2023 11:00 - 57 minutes - 45.8 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about deep work and how it helps us accomplish amazing work. Catherine Morgan is an author, coach, and consultant that helps people reduce stress and grow their careers. One of my favorite parts of the interview was how she deals with procrastination and uses it to her advantage. Highlights from the interview: Catherine’s three stages to her career. She discovered her superpower by seeing what people came to her for in her career. Understanding your g...
Giving Ourselves Permission with Jen Louden
April 18, 2023 11:00 - 59 minutes - 46.8 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about how you can reframe a situation so you can see the difficult situation as an opportunity instead of a burden. Jennifer Louden is a best-selling author, entrepreneur, and speaker. One of my favorite parts of this interview is asking ourselves better questions so we are happier and also more productive. Highlights from the interview: The story of how Jen processed her friend’s passing from cancer. How her friend passed away. How she learned from h...
Take Back Ownership of Your Career with Chris Brogan
April 11, 2023 18:48 - 54 minutes - 41.6 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about how to make small improvements in your job role so you are happier and get better results. Chris Brogan is a best-selling author, entrepreneur, and consultant. One of my favorite parts of this interview is how he makes proactive decisions, so he gets the best out of himself and the people he works with. Highlights from the interview: The story of how Chris smashed his new bike into the side of the house. Why he likes the serenity prayer. Why we ...
The one habit that changed my life
April 04, 2023 11:00 - 35 minutes - 32.8 MBDo you struggle to make progress on an important goal? Try the Daily Dig for 5 minutes a day for 30 days, and I’ll change how you develop habits forever. When my clients first come to me, they usually have janky reflection routines to help them grow healthier, wealthier, happier, etc. We all have goals, but most don’t have a daily system that helps them reach those goals. It’s why most of us give up on our New Year's resolutions so quickly. I had a friend whose New Year's resolution ...
Remove Disempowering Beliefs with Misha Rubin
March 28, 2023 11:00 - 47 minutes - 37.4 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about tuning into your inner voice so you can make career choices that align with your head, heart, and gut. One of my favorite parts of this interview was when he gave examples of how people found new opportunities that fit their vision for their careers. Highlights from the interview: How Rubin heard his inner voice telling him to quit his corporate job. Why he made a radical decision to quit his job when he was the breadwinner of his family. How to...
Growth Mindset with Dan Zavorotny
March 21, 2023 11:00 - 51 minutes - 42.9 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about the importance of self-awareness and why it matters so much in business and life. Dan Zavorotny is a co-founder of Nutrisense, a company that helps people understand how your body works well. One of my favorite parts of this interview is how Dan uses mentors to help him learn something new. Highlights from the interview: How Dan immigrated from Ukraine and help co-found a business. Taking on opportunities that push him outside his comfort zone. ...
Conflict Drives Change with Desiree Adaway
March 14, 2023 11:00 - 53 minutes - 42.5 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn how to have difficult conversations so you grow stronger relationships. Desiree Adaway is the founder of the Adaway group. They consult with businesses to create an inclusive culture. One of my favorite parts of this interview was how we can stay in the right relationship even when in conflict. Highlights from the interview: Why Desiree likes to have difficult conversations. Staying connected during a conflict. Understanding why deep change is possibl...
How to Get Over a Bad Decision
March 07, 2023 11:00 - 32 minutes - 30 MBDo you ever wish you could take back a bad decision? Investing in Bitcoin when it was at its all-time high. Anyone? Just me? I’ve said “Yes” to the wrong opportunities and “No” to the right ones. It’s only by looking back on these situations that I’ve learned to improve my decision-making skills. Many of us have these regrets, but most don’t have a system to review our decisions. Our decision-making process needs to improve. Otherwise, we won’t reach our goals. Many people struggle...
Goals that Make an Impact with Justin Khana
February 28, 2023 11:00 - 55 minutes - 46.4 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn how to use mental models to make better decisions. Justin Khanna is a Michelin-trained chef turned entrepreneur. One of my favorite parts of this interview was when he shared how frameworks helped him overcome his inner blocks around money. Highlights from the interview: Justin shares his story about turning from a chef into an entrepreneur. He dissects how he got into the culinary arts. Three core parts of our inner voice. Why a lot of people strugg...
Committed and Unattached with Leo Babauta
February 21, 2023 11:00 - 57 minutes - 46.8 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn how you can be committed and unattached to impact the world without getting hooked by your emotions. Leo Babauta is a best-selling author, blogger, and entrepreneur. He has millions of readers and shares some of his greatest frameworks to help you succeed in your career. Highlights from the interview: Leo explains how he started Zen Habits and how he quit smoking. Becoming aware of our urges is the first step to changing our habits. Working with your...
Capturing Creativity with Nick Loper
February 14, 2023 11:00 - 55 minutes - 45.1 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn about how you can build systems to help you try new businesses or ideas to grow your career. Nick Loper is an entrepreneur and founder of the Side Hustle Show. One of my favorite parts of this interview is how he talks through his method for capturing his ideas and turning them into action. Highlights from the interview: Nick explains why he is an introvert and how he gets energy from relationships. How motivation in different areas of his life help sp...
The Art of Making Decisions with Patti DeNucci
February 07, 2023 11:00 - 59 minutes - 49.8 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn how to understand how you can improve your communication by becoming a better listener. They go hand-in-hand. Patti DeNucci is an author and speaker. One of my favorite parts of this interview is when she talks about the lens through which we view life. Highlights from the interview: What Patti was like as a kid and how her personality influenced her career. Why having freedom as a kid is so important to creativity. How I’ve struggled with being playf...
The Secret Sauce to Getting Your Career Unstuck
January 31, 2023 11:00 - 28 minutes - 26.1 MBEvery choice is an opportunity. When we are stuck, we stop seeing the value of the choices that we do have. Instead, we become afraid. We don’t want to rush or wait too long to make a decision. We must have a process, so we have a balanced approach. One that checks in with our head (facts), heart (passions), and gut (larger purpose). “On an important decision one rarely has 100% of the information needed for a good decision no matter how much one spends or how long one waits. And, if o...
Crafting a Memorable Story with Sam Horn
January 24, 2023 11:00 - 1 hour - 58.3 MBIn this interview, you’ll learn how to create more memorable stories in your career. I put myself on the hot seat to hopefully set an example for you to learn. Sam Horn is a best-selling author and speaker. You’ll love the frameworks around storytelling that she talks about. One of my favorite parts of this interview was how to pull out an “aha” from a story. Highlights from the interview: How to stand out in the crowd. How she came up with the concept of Tongue Fu. Peeling away our...
Find Your Hidden Opportunities
January 17, 2023 11:00 - 10 minutes - 9.77 MBI often ask my kids “Would you rather” questions. They love it because it gets them thinking. I love asking them questions like… Would you rather have the superpower to turn invisible or be super strong? My one son would rather be super strong while my other son would like to be invisible. The idea of turning invisible is tempting to anyone especially if they get embarrassed. We want to hide when we feel embarrassed, overwhelmed and tired. We feel safer. When we explore our inner th...
Using Heart Centered Techniques to be More Effective with Mark Silver
January 10, 2023 11:00 - 1 hour - 49.7 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how Mark Silver found harmony in his business. Mark is the founder of Heart of Business, where he teaches people about growing his business from their hearts. One of my favorite parts of this interview was when he talked about the four layers of reality and how it influences our decisions. Highlights from the interview: How to not compromise your values. The tension of what we know is true and what society is telling us to do. The importance of m...
Utilizing Prayer Before Taking the Stage with Ramon Ray
January 03, 2023 11:00 - 55 minutes - 45 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how to be more aware of your thoughts so you can make wise choices in your career/business. Ramon Ray is a speaker, entrepreneur and author who teaches people to stay in their zone of genius. One of my favorite parts of this interview is when Ramon talked about his practice of praying before he goes out on stage to speak to an audience and why it's important to him. Highlights from the interview: Understanding the fears that hold you back. How we ...
Fly Free in 2023
December 27, 2022 17:39 - 20 minutes - 19 MBIn this episode we’ll break down how to make a good decision, learn from bad ones and develop habits that support our future selves. Many of us look back on our year with regret or complaint. We must avoid ruminating on the bad things and create a process that helps us take an honest look at our lives. It starts with the little decisions that we make everyday. We must look at our mistakes in a way that helps us grow from them instead of allowing our inner bully to wreck our confidence....
Guide to Making Billion Dollar Decisions
December 20, 2022 11:00 - 22 minutes - 31.6 MBIf someone offered me a billion dollars, but in exchange I would only have 6 more months to live, I wouldn’t take it. I know this scenario sounds weird, but hear me out. We’ve won the lottery of life. We get to decide whether we have coffee, water, tea, or strawberry and banana smoothie in the morning. These choices are amazing. Then you get to experience the deliciousness of your choice. We get to choose what we do every single day. Sometimes it doesn’t seem like a choice because ...
The Key to Improving Your Results with Tara McMullin
December 13, 2022 11:00 - 1 hour - 56.4 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how to make decisions that fit your personality and values. Tara McMullin is the author of What Works: A Comprehensive Framework to Change the Way We Approach Goal Setting and entrepreneur. One of my favorite parts of this interview is learning how she encourages herself to build good habits. Highlights from the interview: What would Tara’s nine-year-old self think of her today. How to stay true to yourself. Getting comfortable making her own dec...
Get Back On Track with Corbett Barr
December 06, 2022 11:00 - 48 minutes - 38.6 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how you get back up when you stumble in business. Corbett Barr is a serial entrepreneur who has started and sold businesses and now he helps other entrepreneurs grow their businesses. One of my favorite parts of this interview is how Corbett shares his failures and how he gets back on track. Highlights from the interview: Figuring out how to work through the struggle when you get knocked down. Cultivating a resilient mindset. Finding people who h...
Change Your Life in 60 Days with Ford Dyke
November 29, 2022 11:00 - 57 minutes - 52.4 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about listening to your mind, body, and heart so you can reduce your stress and make better decisions. Dr. Ford Dyke teaches people about human performance optimization. One of my favorite parts of this interview is when Ford walks us through a relaxing breathing exercise. Highlights from the interview: How he sees life differently from other people. Nature and nurture There is a dependence between nature and nurture. Why he feels like an alien at tim...
Make Quality Career Choices
November 22, 2022 11:00 - 32 minutes - 30.1 MBIn this podcast I share the three levels of decision making that you should go through when you are making a complex career choice. I decided to talk directly to you, so you understand how to make better decisions that make a positive impact in your life. “Easy choices, hard life. Hard choices, easy life.” Jerzy Gregorek We don’t account for our future selves. Story - I recently struggled to make a choice. I was asked to do a speaking gig for free. It was a good opportunity to get in...
Understanding Your Core Fears with Khe Hy
November 15, 2022 11:00 - 57 minutes - 48.4 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how Khe Hy looks at his fears and how important it is to recognize these feelings, so you can make good decisions. Khe Hy is an entrepreneur, author, and speaker. He is the founder of Rad Reads. One of my favorite parts of this interview is how he breaks down his fears and using them for growth. Highlights from the interview: Attending his first conference after Covid lockdown. How his parents, who came from Cambodia, has influenced his life. How...
Letting Go of Your Ego to Grow Your Career with Christina Wallace
November 08, 2022 11:00 - 58 minutes - 47.2 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how to be bad at things, so you can finish things. Christina Wallace is a Senior Harvard Lecturer and author. I found her story about how she started a clothing company that eventually failed and what she did to recover. Highlights from the interview: How Christina cheated at the Presidential fitness test when she was young and what it taught her. How to get over the overachiever mindset. Why we avoid things that we are bad at and how it hurts ou...
Magical Moments with Amber Bracegirdle
November 01, 2022 11:00 - 58 minutes - 42.4 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how Amber took advantage of her opportunities to grow a career that she loves. Amber Bracegirdle is the co-founder of Mediavine, a web sales platform. They help entrepreneurs develop prosperous companies. One of my favorite stories is when Amber talks about how her boys became best friends during the pandemic. Highlights from the interview: How San Antonio changed after just 12 years. If you want to do something there is a way, it just takes time ...
Attracting What You Desire with Ashley Jones
October 25, 2022 11:00 - 1 hour - 55.4 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how you can bring more abundance into your life with some major mindset shifts. Ashley Jones is an entrepreneur that teaches people how to focus on what they want in life. You are going to love the peanut butter cookie story. Highlights from the interview: Finding gratitude in the struggle takes a mindset shift. How she learned from negative women who had a bad attitude. Creating our own hell and how to avoid this trap. Her process around failur...
Feeling like an Outcast when Speaking Up with Lori Allen
October 18, 2022 11:00 - 54 minutes - 41.5 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how Lori Allen uses curiosity to help guide her career. Lori is an entrepreneur, founder of Great Escapes, and mother. She explains how she built a business that created the niche and how she advocates for her children in the school system. Highlights from the interview: How Lori’s strengths and weaknesses of being an emotional person has helped her and hindered her in her career and life. Messing with kids’ ice cream parties at school is much mor...
Toxic “Suck it up” Culture with Sonia Simone
October 11, 2022 11:00 - 56 minutes - 45.5 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how Sonia Simone, founder of Copyblogger and Creative Fierce, finds ways to process her thoughts and emotions so she can grow as a person and entrepreneur. I really enjoyed when Sonia talked about her mental health tools to help her shift her perspective when she is struggling. I think you will too. Highlights from the interview: How Sonia is working on her ADHD diagnosis. How to take things out in the world and connect them with your life to tell...
Embrace Your Inner Nerd with Phil Simpkins
October 04, 2022 11:00 - 45 minutes - 34.4 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how Phil Simpkins looks at his partnerships in his businesses. He admits that he is a nerd and shouldn't take himself too seriously. Phil is an entrepreneur at heart. He tries to build businesses with people that care about something greater than themselves. You’ll learn how he utilizes his colleagues, family and friends to help him guide him. Highlights from the interview: Why Phil is guided by his values. His mom was a teach and how it influence...
People have a Right to be Wrong with Ruth Carter
September 27, 2022 11:00 - 52 minutes - 45.1 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about what it means to feel and live a non-binary life. Ruth Carter is an entrepreneur, lawyer and blogger. One of my favorite aspects of this interview is when we talked about using challenges to help us grow. Highlights from the interview: When Ruth realized that she wasn’t a girl. Why fitting in at school was hard. Why conforming didn’t work for her. What it means to feel non-binary. How her therapist has helped her grow. Why not having the answe...
The Joy of Helping Others with Jon Allman
September 20, 2022 11:00 - 45 minutes - 35.9 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how you can lead people through disagreements. Jon Allman the CEO of Endeavors, a non-profit organization that focuses on helping vulnerable families and military veterans. One of the interesting parts of this interview was how he used prayer to center himself. Highlights from the interview: What Jon was like as a kid. How does Jon let out his inner kid in his role as CEO. How his air force training helped him grow as a leader. The importance of...
Why Trying Harder Isn’t the Answer with Steve Kamb
September 13, 2022 11:00 - 59 minutes - 49.7 MBIn this interview you’ll learn about how Steve Kamb started and built Nerd Fitness, where he stumbled and what he did to find support. One of my favorite parts of this interview is listening to Steve explain why he demoted himself in his business and what happened after he demoted himself. Highlights from the interview: What Steve Kamb was like when he started Nerd Fitness. Why he laughs at his naivete about starting and running a business. How he built his empathy while growing his...
Stay True to Yourself with Marina Gavito
September 06, 2022 11:00 - 39 minutes - 32.1 MBMarina Gavito is the Executive Director at SA Digital Connects. It’s a non-profit organization that helps communities get connected to the internet. It’s a wonderful cause because it helps them get opportunities that they would otherwise miss. Highlights from the interview: We start with career pivots and how Marina made the leap to a non-profit. Why purposeful work is so important to her. How she went from the private sector to a non-profit and how she weighed the pros and cons bef...
Self Awareness in Business with Neil Patel
August 30, 2022 11:00 - 42 minutes - 34.7 MBNeil Patel is a serial entrepreneur who has started multiple million dollar businesses. He started his first business at the age of 16 because he didn’t want to go down the same career path as others. He now owns a large agency with over 750 employees. He talks about why he succeeds and how others can succeed in business as well. Highlights from the interview: Who and what he attributes his success to. How he cultivated his mindset, so he could succeed. Why he started his entreprene...
Chaos and Peace in Business with Noah Kagan
August 23, 2022 11:00 - 34 minutes - 29.4 MBNoah Kagan is an entrepreneur with an amazing resume. He was one of the first employees at Facebook and Mint. He started his own company, a software marketplace called App Sumo. It’s grown quickly and his leadership style is inspirational. He is back to being the CEO of the company and the insights he shares about his personal growth and leadership skills is super helpful for leaders at every level. Highlights from the interview: What was Noah like as a kid. Why he liked money at a y...
Getting Still to Improve Your Decisions with Cara Chace
August 16, 2022 11:00 - 53 minutes - 44.9 MBCara Chace is a productivity specialist and former special agent for the federal government. . She is a fascinating woman with so many unique ideas around productivity. Find out how she makes time to be still and what her end of day routine is so she sleeps better and is prepared for the next day. Highlights from the interview: What it means to be vulnerable and how it helps her in her career. The power of getting still and calm. How she notices when she is feeling upset or frustrat...
The Blue Apron Approach with Andrew Warner
August 09, 2022 11:00 - 49 minutes - 42.6 MBAndrew Warner is an author, podcaster, and consultant. He has helped thousands of entrepreneurs figure out how they can grow their businesses. One of my favorite parts of this interview was his story of what happened when he started mowing his own lawn. It’s interesting and funny. Highlights from the interview: What inspired Andrew when he was a kid. How we dealt with difficulties during our recording. What triggered him to notice how people have influenced him. He noticed how peo...