Ep 90 Reconciliation Activist J. Christopher Collins

“A sense of endless possibility”: Different Together founder J. Christopher Collins on his new book, “Mending Our Union,” why face-to-face conversation by people with differing viewpoints can foster hope, and practical tips for tense talks.

The post Ep 90 Reconciliation Activist J. Christopher Collins appeared first on Midlife Mixtape .

“A sense of endless possibility”: Different Together founder J. Christopher Collins on his new book, “Mending Our Union,” why face-to-face conversation by people with differing viewpoints can foster hope, and practical tips for tense talks.

J Christopher Collins’ website
Mending Our Union
Different Together
Glide Memorial Church
Living Room Conversations
Braver Angels

I could be wrong. I suppose it’s possible. (I could be right)

Thanks as always to M. The Heir Apparent, who provides the music behind the podcast – check him out here! ***This is a rough transcription of Episode 90 of the Midlife Mixtape Podcast. It originally aired on February 2, 2021. Transcripts are created using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and there may be errors in this transcription, but we hope that it provides helpful insight into the conversation. If you have any questions or need clarification, please email [email protected] ***

 

J Christopher Collins 00:00

I’ve asked some of the Different Together participants, why do you keep on coming back here? And I commonly hear that, “it’s because I’m more hopeful. I’m less dismissive of people’s opinions.” And that is a starting point that is hopeful.

Nancy Davis Kho 00:16

Welcome to Midlife Mixtape, The Podcast. I’m Nancy Davis Kho and we’re here to talk about the years between being hip and breaking one.

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent].

Nancy Davis Kho 00:38

Hi listeners – This is Nancy Davis Kho, host of the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, and author of The Thank-You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time. Valentine’s Day is coming and if you’re thinking, “Oh great, yet another holiday in captivity,” may I suggest a way to make it stand out from every other Sunday since last March? Write your Valentine, your Galentine or your Bacchanal-entine a gratitude letter for all the ways they’ve improved your life, and hand it over along with a copy of my book! You can find The Thank-You Project in bookstores, online, or for audio download and here’s some incentive – if you buy the book and you’re planning to give it to your Valentine, email me at [email protected] tell me who you’ll gift the book and letter to and I’ll mail you a personalized bookplate to stick inside! Valentine’s Day SOLVED. Now let’s get back to real romance by which I mean, rewatching Bridgerton.

[MUSIC]

Hi everyone, and Happy 2021! You know if you listened to Episode 89 at the end of last year that I needed to take a bit of personal time off after the death of my mom in December. And I just wanted to start off this episode in this year by thanking all of you who reached out to check in on me and express condolences. It was a rough go as, frankly, was appropriate, and even once I started feeling better, I really couldn’t really exhale until after Inauguration Day.

But I found once January 20th was behind me, I was actually feeling inspired and excited about the chance to talk to someone for the podcast and in particular today’s guest, J. Christopher Collins.

Chris is a native Texan and the founder of the Different Together Project at GLIDE Memorial Church in San Francisco. He’s also the author of the new book, Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations. Upon graduating from St. Edward’s University in Austin, Texas, Chris was recognized with the Presidential Award, which the highest honor given to students who have demonstrated excellence in leadership, academics, and service to the community. After 27 years in Texas, Chris moved to New York and earned his Masters of Public Administration and Public Policy Analysis at NYU’s Robert F. Wagner Graduate School of Public Service and he now lives in San Francisco with his wife.

Let’s settle in for a courageous conversation with Chris.

[MUSIC]

Welcome to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, J. Christopher Collins. I’m so pleased to have you here today!

Chris 03:11

Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for having me.

Nancy 03:13

Well, listeners will know that I have taken a bit of a pause in doing this show. I lost my mom in December and if anybody’s gone through a loss like that, you know that it takes a little while for you to feel like yourself again. I’m not quite back yet, but I was kind of trusting that the Universe would put a guest in front of me who would make me want to put the headphones back on and have another conversation. So when I read about your book, Chris, I was like, “That’s it. That is the energy I want to start 2021 with.” I’m excited to talk about your book, Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations because that is top of mind right now.

But first, Chris, the question we always ask on this show, what was your first concert and what were the circumstances?

Chris 03:55

My first concert was Willie Nelson.

Nancy 03:58

I love Willie.

Chris 03:59

Willie Nelson at Stubb’s BBQ in Austin, Texas.

Nancy 04:03

You’re from Austin, right?

Chris 04:04

Yeah, I’m from Texas, went to college in Austin and Stubb’s BBQ is in downtown and it’s a great music venue. My dad, at a young age, introduced me to old country like Willie Nelson, Ernest Tubb, Johnny Cash, so I definitely grew up with that old steel guitar country sound. While I was in college at St. Edward’s University in Austin – Willie plays in Austin all the time – I called my dad and said, “Hey. Willie is playing. Won’t you come down and we’ll go see him?” He said, “Okay” and came down. We went to the concert together. It was the first time I had been around any of my parents with the smell of marijuana in the air.

Nancy 04:52

How did that go?

Chris 04:53

It was good. It was fine. It was another step into adulthood, I think.

Nancy 04:58

That’s right.

Willie is great. One of the things I love about him is that it’s obviously a family employment situation. He’s got all his family members up there playing with him and I think it’s so sweet. I think that might be a very big part of the reason he makes music.

Chris 05:12

There is a strong sense of joy you can see in his eyes and his face when he’s up there. He’s one of the great legends of our time and everyone in Texas loves Willie and somehow he’s been able to be this progressive voice in a very conservative state, supporting Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders for President. Yet everyone across the political spectrum loves him and he somehow figured out something I think we need to tap into, something we can learn from.

Nancy 05:42

We’re going to talk more about the way that people can bridge the gap that way. Bbut you do your work under the affiliation of GLIDE Memorial Church, which is a nationally recognized center for social justice, and it’s dedicated to fighting systemic injustice, creating pathways out of poverty and crisis, and transforming lives. What I love about GLIDE, though, is it’s the only church I know that has conducted a U2-charist, which is based on the music of U2. Have you ever gone to that service?

Chris 06:09

No, that was before my time. But I know that Bono is a big fan of GLIDE and Cecil Williams and Janice Mirikitani, the founders and I’ve heard people reflect on those days. But unfortunately, that was before I came around to GLIDE.

Nancy 06:27

Well, when concerts starts again, when bands start touring again, if U2 comes to town I’m guessing they’ll come by GLIDE and do another U2-charist.

So your book came out in January. It’s called Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations and it’s based on the work that you’ve done through a program called Different Together as I mentioned. It’s part of the programming at GLIDE Memorial Church. So let’s just start by hearing about Different Together: what is it, and why did you decide to start it?

Chris 06:56

I will take you back to the days following the 2016 presidential election.

Nancy 07:02

Must you start that way? Actually, it was better than the 2020 election. Go ahead.

Chris 07:07

Donald Trump had just been elected and I was shocked by the outcome and also really realizing that I was out of touch with tens of millions of people, with Americans who voted for him, despite all of the red flags that came up during his campaign. And in those days following the election, I wanted to do something. I knew I needed to do something, but I didn’t know what that was.

I was standing on the street in San Francisco one afternoon and an older white woman approached me and said, kind of under her breath, “I do not say anything in this town. But I’m glad that he won.” I resisted the temptation to be dismissive but I chose to go into this conversation.

I said, “Well, why is that?” She said that the election wasn’t about race, that the race issue isn’t as bad as it was in the 1960s. And I said, “Well, it’s not really up to us as white people to decide whether it’s better or worse. We need to listen to the people who experience it and see what they have to say.” The conversation went back and forth for just a few moments and we parted ways and we wished each other well and it was really a pleasant conversation considering the topic.

But I walked away realizing that there is power in these connections and that there is power in disagreement and sharing different perspectives and challenging each other. I felt relieved that I was able to communicate with someone that I strongly disagreed with and wanted to do more of this.

So from that interaction was born the Different Together Project at GLIDE and we’ve been meeting regularly with conservatives, both in the Bay Area and across the country, since the beginning of 2017. It has transformed me the way that I view this topic, the way I view other people, as well as the people who participate regularly in it.

Nancy 09:15

Now, I want to ground this in the fact that you are a straight, cisgender white man and I am a straight, cisgender white woman and we both operate from a baseline of privilege even as we’re here talking about reconciliation and mending. What would you say to someone who says, “These are two privileged white folks telling us how to fix disunity in this country when so much of the disunity is sowed by people who look just like us?” Like, “Here comes some white folks again to tell us how to make things better”?

Chris 09:45

I would completely agree with that. I think that bridge building is a hobby for people that are not discriminated against. It’s a luxury to be able to do bridge building work because I don’t have as much at stake in these difficult conversations as, say, a black person does, or another person of color, or a trans person, or a gay person. Disagreements might hurt my ego, but they don’t hurt my soul like it would be, if someone were to challenge an immutable characteristic of my skin color or who I love.

So what I think that the bridge building work can do for white, straight cisgender people is to develop the skills to open our hearts to people who don’t have the luxury or are more hesitant to join into bridge building conversations. I talk about in the book, Mending Our Union, I bring up the Plato’s Parable of the Cave, where people are chained up in a cave and they can see shadows on the wall.  One person breaks free and actually goes out of the cave and explores the world and sees what these images are, these things that were creating the shadows on the wall, and how that just completely transforms you into seeing the world as it is, rather than just seeing the shadows. I challenge the readers to evaluate whether we are seeing the shadows on the wall, or we are breaking free from these narratives that we live and going out and exploring the world with curiosity and trying to understand people and understand their stories, understand their values, how they came to the beliefs that they now hold. I think that there’s a big opportunity for the white, straight cisgender community to really begin to make some headway on this.

Nancy 11:55

Not necessarily just an opportunity, but an obligation, I would say. I mean, the fact that we can treat it as a situation or a conversation that we opt into by choice says everything. In reading the book, I mean, I’ve had this feeling before, but it just solidified this feeling for me that it’s work that needs to be done precisely because it doesn’t impact us as much.

I have to say coming into this, obviously, the 2016 election was terrible. I would say 2020 was even worse, even if the outcome made me happy. I think part of why this book appealed to me is because I do feel so angry. I do feel so angry at what I saw on January 6th and the fact that there are so many people who are on the other side of this divide, and I know that anger isn’t productive. I know anger isn’t going to fix things.

In reading the book, I mean, I felt so skeptical, honestly, Chris. I was like, “How could I have a conversation with somebody who voted to take away marriage rights for people who I care deeply about who happened to be gay, or are elevating a leader who is clearly racist and why do I have to have a conversation with that person?” After reading your book, I thought, first of all, it made me feel, “wow, maybe there could be change.” It also comes from a place of wanting to be a compassionate person and wanting to be someone who is willing to listen. I think I’ve gotten worse at that in four years, I really do. I’ve been guilty of putting people in boxes and putting labels on people, as much as anyone. So I really appreciated that your book gave very actionable ways to unlock ourselves from those kinds of limitations.

I would say your mom was right. It was good that you put in a lot of stories. In the book, Chris talks about how his mom read the first draft and she said, “You’ve got to put in more stories of how it worked.” But actually, Bruce Feiler was one of my guests in Episode 88 of the podcast and this is what we talked about, how the proper response to a setback is a story and how telling a story about what we go through gives us power over it and kind of helps us through it. I really felt like the stories are what made your book sing.

So what I would want to know, if I hadn’t read the book yet, is how it is Different Together actually works. Walk me through how the program works so that people can understand where this possibility is.

Chris 14:36

I want to go back to just one thing that you said.

Nancy 14:40

Because that was a RAMBLE. You can tell I haven’t been on the podcast for six weeks. I’m like “Oh, words! They all want to come out all at once!” Sorry.

Chris 14:49

You mentioned being angry and that’s certainly something that is felt universally, I think, across the political spectrum right now and something that I feel very strongly as well. Anger is a source of energy and I think that we can tap into it for productive purposes.

For me, practicing mindful self-compassion has been transformative in allowing me to tap into that. No longer am I a prisoner to the anger that previously simmered in my body. I now can use anger to fuel my desire to build peace and to make valuable change in my community. And not only does that connect me with other people of goodwill, it grants me the opportunity to challenge beliefs that I oppose and do so in a way that leaves a conversation open for future conversations. That is how the process of a Different Together meeting works.

We start every meeting going through a list of group agreements, like be sure to listen, speak respectfully, it’s okay to show emotions, just not to do so in a way that diminishes somebody else, speak from your own experience, don’t use broad generalizations of other people, things like that.

We focus on exploring a topic, rather than debating a topic. Debate is a concept that humans have used for thousands of years to talk about the tough questions of our day, but that has been the only thing that we have been using. I think that we are missing opportunities to explore deeper, because debate is about winners and losers. Debate is a performance. It’s a tactical game that we play where we’re not necessarily exploring truth when we debate, we are looking to be victorious and win. That winning might mean dismissing the truth. It also might mean character assassination. So Different Together works to not debate but to explore and to try to find a deeper sense of truth. We try to incorporate stories and values to help accomplish that goal.

Nancy 17:26

One of the stories in the book that really stuck with me was a conversation you talked about through the program where in one of the small groups that were meeting, there was a Trump supporter and there was a trans woman named Meredith. On the surface of it, that conversation did not go well. The small group came back to the larger Different Together conversation and it didn’t appear that the conservative person had really heard what Meredith was trying to share. Meredith felt like she had not been heard. I guess what struck me was that the impact of that conversation wasn’t immediate, but it might have been the first step toward real learning.

Meredith talked about the fact that she recognized through that conversation that she needed to present her story differently that she could strengthen the way she shared her story, so that other people could relate to it more.  I wondered whether the conservative guy – I think his name was Dan, right? – whether the next time Dan meets a trans woman, and he said he had never had before…maybe next time he will think of this conversation he had with Meredith and be more open. It just reinforced for me how some of these… I mean, it’s a long game. It has taken a long time for us to get this divided. These conversations, each one, is just a little ripple in the pond, but you don’t know where that ripple can go and what good that ripple can do. So it’s kind of a plea for patience and perseverance in having these tough conversations.

Chris 19:07

Yes, I was concerned about that conversation. I go into detail about the book of what was going on in my head as the moderator of this conversation thinking, “Oh, my God.”

Nancy 19:20

You really have to think on your feet. I mean, Holy smokes.

Chris 19:24

Yeah.

Nancy 19:25

Everything is shifting around you, as you’re moderating these conversations.

Chris 19:29

It can be tough. But I think that we’re all going through this and trying to learn how to do it. This is not something that we, as a society, have as a skill set. I think that at that moment, I told the group, “I don’t really know what to do here!”

But the words of Dr. King came to mind. The words he wrote in the letter from Birmingham Jail, he said, “I’m not afraid of the word ‘tension’. There is a tension that is necessary for growth.” I reminded the group of that concept, that if we are meeting and we sense the tension, we see the tension, we pull back the curtain of our society, then that alone is doing the work.

Now whether we leave all feeling good and happy, well, that’s not necessarily going to happen at all of these meetings, because we’re divided and we have a lot of work to do. I think that the courage that Meredith had to share her story, and to do so in an environment where she knew that she was not among like-minded people, I think is incredible.  I don’t think that Meredith will necessarily see the impact that she has made.

Nancy 20:54

Right.

Chris 20:55

Now, what Dan experienced from that, I don’t know whether that made a lasting impact or an impression on him. I don’t know, and Meredith may never know. But it’s about not necessarily what we can see that we’re doing, but are we moving the ball? Are we advancing compassion?

Are we at least pulling back the curtain and sitting with the tension that exists in our society? Or do we sweep it under the rug and ignore it like we have for centuries? So I think what Meredith did and allowed us to do is to experience the discomfort that she must live with every day.

Nancy 21:40

I talked about how the first half of Mending Our Union has a lot of stories about how this program has worked in practice. Also, how you started it, when you kind of said, “I’m going to do this thing. Oh, no, I just said I was going to do this thing!” Which I love. It’s relatable. Yay! Take a big step that you have no idea what you’re doing! We all know that that can work out great.

But the back half of the book has really practical steps and you talk about four steps to healing division. Could you talk just fairly quickly about what those four steps are?

Chris 22:14

Well, I think that before we really start to think of building bridges, it really starts within. So the first couple of steps are, “What are we doing for ourselves? What are we doing to build ourselves up to having conversations?” Because the bridge building process doesn’t start with going and talking to your brother, or an uncle, or an aunt, or someone you’re close to, or best friend about the division. There’s too much at stake in those conversations.

We start to work within, and it can start by listening to podcasts that have different perspectives, reading books. On my website, I list many of the books that I’ve read to help me with that process of opening up and exploring different ideas that are not a part of my living experience. Then to get engaged with people to start practicing the skills of talking, but do that with strangers. There are organizations out there that are ready to help you do that, like Different Together, or Living Room Conversations, Braver Angels. Then begin to bring these conversations face to face, not online, not through texting or social media, but where you can see a person, either through video or in person.

Nancy 23:39

Yeah, I love the idea of starting to have these difficult conversations with strangers because you think of Thanksgiving and how fraught –  I mean, maybe it was always fraught –  but it’s really bad in an election year. To have had some of those practice conversations first so that you can go in with a sense of confidence and a sense of “I know how this might go”, that’s a relief. I think would allow people to actually digest their Thanksgiving dinner instead of being sick about it the whole month of November. It’s January, you guys. We can work on this as we roll up and maybe we can even be there in person, without masks! A girl can hope.

Chris 24:16

One day.

Nancy 24:18

Yeah, your website jchristophercollins.com and the book both include great resource lists of books and podcasts. I definitely skew towards never listening to conservative media. There were some on there I’m like, “Hmm. I’ve never heard of that. I should check that out.” So that is the challenge for myself, to try to listen to some of those shows and read some of those.

Chris 24:41

Also, while listening, noticing what’s happening in your body. Noticing the reaction that your physical body has to hearing something that you find objectionable. That is another one of these aspects of preparing yourself for these conversations that is important, that noticing.

Nancy 24:59

When you said the phrase, because this is how my brain is wired,  I thought, “Anger is an energy?” Well, yes! That’s a Public Image Limited song featuring Johnny Lydon, and that’s how I feel.

In a moment, we’re going to come back with J. Christopher Collins to talk about his own midlife reconciliation. But first a break for our sponsor.

Hey there! Join me this coming Thursday, February 4th at 6 pm Pacific, 9 pm Eastern Time for a Zoom conversation with my dear friend and past Midlife Mixtape guest, author KJ Dell’Antonia. I should say, my dear friend BESTSELLING NEW YORK TIMES AUTHOR KJ, because her debut novel, The Chicken Sisters, which came out in December went immediately to the top of the best fiction seller list. Reese Witherspoon selected it for her book club the same month! I am pretty sure Reese also optioned it for a movie but that’s a question I’ll ask KJ on Thursday. Thanks to A Great Good Place for Books in Oakland, I’ll be interviewing KJ via Zoom and you can join in for free wherever you’re sitting on the globe. Look for the link under the Events tab on the Midlife Mixtape FB page, or go to Great Good Place for Books – that’s www.ggpbooks.com/event ! Three generations. Two chicken shacks. One recipe for disaster….Booklist called The Chicken Sisters “An utter delight from start to finish!” I hope you’ll tune in for the discussion on Thursday Feb 4 at 6 pm Pacific!

[MUSIC]

Nancy 26:29

We’re back with J. Christopher Collins, author of Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations and I want to talk to you, Chris, about your own midlife reconciliation.

By that I mean, I was struck in reading the book by the fact that you’re old enough to have spent formative time on both sides of the political divide. You were a young Texas Republican working for Rick Perry and then later you were a slightly older Democrat working for House Majority Leader, Steny Hoyer. I’m wondering how you think that being what we call “in the years between being hip and breaking one” that made it possible for you to reimagine yourself as a Reconciliation Activist? Because I’m guessing that’s a new job title. I don’t think there’s a huge section on LinkedIn for Reconciliation Activist job listings.

Chris 27:17

I don’t know anyone else that has that title. I think that’s a good observation.

Nancy 27:22

Trademark.

Chris 27:24

Starting something new, I think, is surrounded by, for me, the strong sense of failure. For me, it’s not about what I can accomplish in my life. It’s about how far I can carry the ball down the field before it’s time to pass it off to the next generation. As I said earlier, we may never see the fruits of our labor when it comes to something like healing division. In Mending Our Union I talk about how it may take hundreds of years for this process to bear fruit.

Nancy 28:05

You talk about the Sri Lankan example, which I thought was so interesting. Do you mind sharing that?

Chris 28:10

There is a Sarvodaya movement in Sri Lanka that put together a 500 Year Peace Plan. And the leader of this movement said, “It took 500 years for us to become mired in a bloody civil war and it’s going to take at least that much time to come out of it.” That 500 Year Peace Plan talks about economic development, it talks about cross cultural conversations.

I look at the United States and how long it has taken for us to be this divided. So maybe we need our own 500 Year Peace Plan. And that sounds really daunting. But maybe we are 150 years into it, from the beginning of Reconstruction after our own Civil War. Yes, the pendulum has swung back and forth and sometimes it feels like we’re going backwards.

But it’s about, in my lifetime, how much can I do to advance the ball, to move the cause down the field. Not to, whenever I’m in my 70s or 80s, look back and say, “Wow! Look, we did it!” But getting it to the point where it’s ready to pass off to the next generation.

So with that perspective, it helps me to reassess what I can do in my lifetime to promote healing and promote peace and that if we stick with this work, we may make a meaningful impact.

Nancy 29:35

It’s almost like being in midlife, you have a little bit more realistic goal setting. When you’re in your 20s and you think everything is open, every avenue is open, “I can do everything I want to do!” Then by the time you you’ve made it to your 40s and 50s and you’re banged up a little bit, you think, “I’m going to make some progress and I’m going to feel good about that and I’m probably not getting to the finish line. But still it’s progress.” Would you say that’s true?

Chris 30:02

Yes, and I also say in the book that I think we can see that Dr. King, in his last speech, knew that he was not going to see the fruits of his labor. I think that he knew that the end was near for him. Yet he kept on doing what he knew he needed to do.

Nancy 30:24

A friend of mine was recently talking about hope. He was referring to Amanda Gorman’s speech at the inauguration, which… that elevated me. That was my church service for the month of January.

But he was talking about how hope, when it’s expressed by young people, is especially powerful.  I wondered if you think midlife hope has any special magic. Is there anything special about people in their 40s and 50s taking a run at this work, of mending our communities and believing that that’s possible, has anything magical to it?

Because we could be jaded.

Chris 30:59

Yes, I do hear a lot of jaded commentary around this work from people at midlife, like, “What is the point of all of this? I’m not talking to those people.” Those people – from both sides of the spectrum.

I think that the reason to do it is to be face to face with these opinions and beliefs that we find objectionable, because it puts a human face to it. And whenever there’s a human face to it, we psychologically experience that differently than whenever we read it on a page or hear someone, an elected official, speak of it on TV. Having a one on one personal connection with that connects us as humans, and it makes us more likely to see that person as a human, rather than an idiot or an enemy.

That’s not a solution. That’s the beginning of a process. I think that it awakens a youthful sense of hope that something big is possible with this. I’ve asked some of the Different Together participants, why do you keep on coming back here? And I commonly hear that, “it’s because I’m more hopeful. I’m less dismissive of people’s opinions.” And that is a starting point that is hopeful.

Nancy 32:30

That’s great. If you guys are all full up on hope in January 2021, good on you. But if not, Chris, where can people find your book and become engaged in the work that you’re promoting?

Chris 32:43

Mending Our Union is available just about anywhere you can buy a book, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop.org, if you want to go the local bookstore route.

Nancy 32:52

We love our local bookstores. Just call them up and tell them to order it.

Chris 32:57

Different Together, we meet monthly online. The Coronavirus has taken us to zoom which is something we’ve wanted to do before the Coronavirus. It just forced our hand to do it now. We can include anybody across the country who wants to do this work. Sign up by going to glide.org/church/different-together/ or just sending me an email at [email protected].

Nancy 33:28

I’ll include links to all of these in the show notes so you guys can check it out there as well.

Chris, we always ask one last question: what one piece of advice do you have for people younger than you, or do you wish you could go back and tell yourself?

Chris 33:43

To be curious. I look at how much good has come in my life because of curiosity. The constant drive to learn to grow and to absorb knowledge, how curiosity also fuels the desire to heal division to learn about someone else’s story. One of my favorite quotes from Eleanor Roosevelt is, “Do one thing every day that scares you.” I’ve started Different Together. I’ve written Mending Our Union. Behind this, there’s a lot of fear, and maybe something you know about? You’ve written a book, you’ve started a podcast.

Nancy 34:21

It’s terrifying.

Chris 34:22

It is.

Nancy 34:23

We’re crazy. What were we thinking?

Chris 34:24

At each phase, I found that my fears were unfounded and then it’s on to the next stage of fears and those fears are unfounded and each time my comfort zone increases. And that has awakened a sense of endless possibility. I just feel if we approach life with curiosity and leaning into discomfort and fear, it’s pretty amazing what can happen in our lives.

Nancy 34:54

If only we’d all known that earlier, right?

Chris 34:57

Yes, I could have used this advice few years ago.

Nancy 35:01

I know. But this is the good stuff about getting older, you get the keys to the kingdom of wisdom, right?

Chris 35:06

That’s absolutely true.

Nancy 35:07

Well, J. Christopher Collins author of Mending Our Union: Healing Our Communities Through Courageous Conversations, you can find it online at your local bookstores. Thank you so much for coming on this show. It’s really important work and I hope as we go into 2021, we all recognize the steps that we can take to advance the ball down the field for a more just and fair society and a less stressful next presidential election. That’s just me. That’s my wish. Thank you so much for being on the show, Chris.

Chris 35:36

Thank you, Nancy. I’ve really enjoyed this.

[MUSIC]

Nancy 35:42

I hope Chris’ encouragement to stay curious resonates with you. We can all play some part, large or small, in moving the ball down the field and fixing all the things that are broken in this country. I would say it’s not that we can, but we’re just obligated to. I hope this conversation at least makes you hopeful that those small, healing conversations might add up over time.

Speaking of healing conversations – I wondered if you listeners ever think, well after a year of the pandemic, that’s it, I’m ruined for public circulation. Is that just me?

I really think that sometimes. My entire wardrobe these days is adult onesies from the Gap and then over that I put long sweaters like Bea Arthur on Maude. I mean, it’s not my best look and yet I go out in public like that all the time with my masks because I figure nobody knows who I am anyway. But in all seriousness, I wonder sometimes if we’ve been at this shelter in place so long that we may have gotten out of the habit of interacting even with the people we know and love. So I’m excited to talk to my guest for the next show, Laura Tremaine, who’s written a book called “Share Your Stuff: 10 Questions to Take Your Friendships to the Next Level”. I need some new questions for my friends besides, “Do you know if CVS has gotten a restock of toilet paper? Do you have a mask that you don’t hate? What is time?” Join me next time and Laura and I will talk about what questions we can ask that will make us sound functional again. Until then, stay healthy!

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent]

 

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