Longform
645 episodes - English - Latest episode: 4 days ago - ★★★★★ - 1.7K ratingsInterviews with writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters about how they do their work. Hosted by Aaron Lammer, Max Linsky, and Evan Ratliff.
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Episodes
Episode 370: James Verini
November 27, 2019 18:34 - 53 minutesJames Verini is a contributing writer at The New York Times Magazine and National Geographic. His new book is They Will Have to Die Now: Mosul and the Fall of the Caliphate. “War is mostly down time. War is mostly waiting around for something to happen.” Thanks to Mailchimp, Pitt Writers, and "Couples Therapy" for sponsoring this week's episode. jamesverini.com Verini's archive on Longform Longform Podcast #147: James Verini [4:19] They Will Have to Die Now: Mosul and the Fall of the Ca...
Episode 369: Lori Gottlieb
November 20, 2019 20:09 - 1 hourLori Gottlieb is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and the author of Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough. Her new book is Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. “Everything that I had done all coalesced into one thing. As a journalist i was helping people to tell their stories, as a therapist I could help people to edit their stories, to change their stories. I could be immersed in the human condition in both of these things.” Thanks to Mailchimp, Pitt Writers, Native, and S...
Episode 368: Leslie Jamison
November 13, 2019 17:18 - 59 minutesLeslie Jamison is the author of The Empathy Exams, The Recovering, and the novel The Gin Closet. Her new essay collection is Make It Scream, Make It Burn. “My writing is always basically asking: what does it feel like to be alive, and how do we ever try to understand what it feels like for anybody else to be alive? In that sense, on the intellectual level, I’m always going to keep chasing the same unanswerable things.” Thanks to Mailchimp, Pitt Writers, Mythology for sponsoring this week's...
Episode 367: Errol Morris
November 06, 2019 17:01 - 53 minutesErrol Morris is the director of The Thin Blue Line and The Fog of War. His latest film is American Dharma. “I don’t make films because it makes sense to make them. Probably if I thought carefully about whether they made sense, I would stop immediately. I make them because I have a need to do it. I have a need to think about stuff. Writing and filmmaking for me is a form of thinking. It’s an opportunity to think about something. And I enjoy it. I don’t know what I would do without filmmaking...
Episode 366: Ashley Feinberg
October 30, 2019 15:26 - 1 hourAshley Feinberg is a senior writer at Slate. She recently uncovered Mitt Romney's secret Twitter account. “The whole thing about politics is that they are basically creating this character, this mask, and that is who they are supposed to be. That is who they try to project to the world. We know that it’s not really them but we have no access to what they actually are. This is the closest we get to seeing what they’re doing when they think no one is watching. … This is the most unfiltered acc...
Episode 365: Carvell Wallace
October 23, 2019 16:26 - 1 hourCarvell Wallace is a podcast host and has written for The New Yorker and The New York Times Magazine. He is the co-author, with Andre Iguodala, of The Sixth Man. “So much of my life experience coalesces into things that are useful… All those years that I was obsessing over this that or the other thing, all the weird stuff that I would do, all the weird things that happened to me, all the places I found myself in that I didn’t want to be in but were interesting - this is all part of what make...
Episode 364: Nicholas Quah
October 16, 2019 07:00 - 1 hourNicholas Quah founded and writes Hot Pod, a newsletter about the podcasting industry, and reviews podcasts for Vulture. “I think to some extent I’m in love with the concept of momentum. Sheer velocity. It’s painful. It’s punishing. Physically, I’m worse off for it. But I feel like if I stop moving, something will fall. Something will break. And I’m over. It’s a horrible feeling.” Thanks to Mailchimp, Pitt Writers, Audm, and Bayer for sponsoring this week's episode. @nwquah nicholasquah.com ...
Episode 363: Radhika Jones
October 09, 2019 19:11 - 1 hourRadhika Jones is the editor-in-chief of Vanity Fair and the editor of Women on Women. “There are a lot of people who still see the value of talking to someone, having a real conversation — about the things that they’re doing, the things that they’re caring about, the things that they’re afraid of, the things that are challenging — because in that conversation, they themselves will discover things that they didn’t realize. It obviously takes courage. It’s a payoff for the reader, certainly, b...
Episode 362: Andrew Marantz
October 02, 2019 14:11 - 1 hourAndrew Marantz is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His new book is Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hijacking of the American Conversation. “Some nonfiction can be reduced to a bulletpoint primer, but a good book is a good book. Whether it’s fiction or nonfiction, it should create a feeling, it should create a world, it should be a feeling that you want to live in and that tilts the way you see things. Isn’t that the point?” Thanks to Mailchimp and Pitt Writers for s...
Episode 361: Ken Burns
September 25, 2019 17:42 - 49 minutesKen Burns is a documentary filmmaker whose work includes The Vietnam War, Baseball, and The Central Park Five. His new series is Country Music. “History, which seems to most people safe — it isn’t. I think the future is pretty safe, it’s the past that’s so terrifying and malleable.” Thanks to Mailchimp, Vistaprint, and Pitt Writers for sponsoring this week's episode. @KenBurns kenburns.com [01:08] The Vietnam War (2017) [01:12] Country Music (2019) [04:58] Salesman (1969) [09:04] J...
Episode 360: Ta-Nehisi Coates and Chris Jackson
September 18, 2019 15:28 - 1 hourTa-Nehisi Coates is the author of The Beautiful Struggle, We Were Eight Years in Power, and Between the World and Me. His new novel is The Water Dancer. Chris Jackson is Coates's editor, and the publisher and editor-in-chief of One World. “I don’t think an essay works unless I can pin a story to it. You don’t want people to just say, ‘Oh that was a cool argument.’ You want people to say, ‘I could not stop thinking about this.’ You want them to nudge their wives and husbands and say, ‘You ha...
Episode 359: Paul Tough
September 11, 2019 16:49 - 1 hourPaul Tough is a contributing writer to the New York Times Magazine and the author of The Years That Matter Most: How College Makes or Breaks Us. “The nice thing about a book as opposed to a magazine article is that it’s less formulaic. As a writer, it gives you more freedom — you’re trying to create an emotional mood where ideas have a place to sit in a person’s brain. And when people are moved by a book, it’s not by being told, ‘Here’s the problem, here’s the answer, now go do it.’ It’s by...
Episode 358: Mike Isaac
September 04, 2019 15:44 - 54 minutesMike Issac covers Silicon Valley for The New York Times. He is the author of Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber. “People try to use journalists all the time. Your job as a journalist is to figure out who’s using you, why they’re using you, and whether you can do something legitimately without playing into one side or another.” Thanks to MailChimp, Pitt Writers, and Wolverine Podcast for sponsoring this week's episode. @MikeIsaac Isaac on Longform [00:14] Wolverine Podcast [02:09] Super Pumpe...
Episode 357: Michelle García
August 28, 2019 12:50 - 1 hourMichelle García has written for The New York Times, The Washington Post and Oxford American. She directed the PBS film, Against Mexico: The Making of Heroes and Enemies. “We have to see that within difficult stories there is a very important message of humanity triumphing over despair. If you don’t focus on joy, humanity is squashed. If all you see and all you narrate is pain, then you extinguish the possibility of joy and the important part of holding onto humanity.” Thanks to MailChimp an...
Episode 356: Jean-Xavier de Lestrade
August 21, 2019 16:15 - 47 minutesJean-Xavier de Lestrade is a French documentary filmmaker. He directed Murder on a Sunday Morning and The Staircase. “The courtroom in the United States is not really about the truth. It’s more about a story against another story. It’s more about storytelling. The more compelling or believable story by the jury will win. But in the end, we don’t know: is it the truth or not?” Thanks to Mailchimp, Pitt Writers, and We Love You (and So Can You) for sponsoring this week's episode. [00:05] We ...
Episode 355: Taylor Lorenz
August 14, 2019 16:30 - 57 minutesTaylor Lorenz just announced she is leaving her job covering internet culture for The Atlantic to join The New York Times. “With technology and internet culture, I am more of an optimist than a lot of other people who cover those topics. It’s more ambiguous for me. It's more like, ‘This is the world we live in now and here are the pros and here are the cons. There are a lot of cons, but there are also these pros.’ I like how things shift and change under me. I like to see how things are cons...
Episode 354: Jia Tolentino
August 07, 2019 17:47 - 1 hourJia Tolentino is a staff writer at the New Yorker and the author of the essay collection Trick Mirror: Reflections of Self-Delusion. “I feel a lot of useful guilt solidifying my own advantages at a time when the ground people stand on is being ripped away. And I feel a lot of emotional anxiety about the systems that connect us - about the things that make my life more convenient and make other people’s lives worse. It’s the reality of knowing that ten years from now, when there are millions ...
Episode 353: Baxter Holmes
July 31, 2019 18:05 - 1 hourBaxter Holmes is a senior writer for ESPN. He won the James Beard Award for his 2017 article, “The NBA's Secret Addiction.” “If there’s anything I’m really fighting for it’s people’s memory. I love the notion of trying to write a story that sticks with people. And that requires really compelling characters. It requires in-depth reporting — you have to take people on a journey. It needs to be so rich and something they didn’t know. I look for a story that I can tell well enough that it will h...
Episode 352: Jenny Odell
July 24, 2019 15:18 - 1 hourJenny Odell is a multidisciplinary artist and the author of How to Do Nothing: Resisting the Attention Economy. “I’ve noticed that the times I’m extra susceptible to being on social media is when I am feeling personally insecure or when I’m dealing with existential dread. That within itself is not part of the attention economy—that’s just a human being having feelings and reacting to things. For me, it’s a question of like, ‘What do I do with that?’ I can either feed it back into the attenti...
Episode 351: Josh Levin
July 17, 2019 18:11 - 50 minutesJosh Levin is the national editor at Slate. He is the host of the podcast Hang Up and Listen and the author of The Queen: The Forgotten Life Behind an American Myth. “I think it’s a strength to make a thing, one that people might have thought was familiar, feel strange. And reminding people —in general, in life—that you don’t really know as much as you think you know. I think that carries over into any kind of storytelling.” Thanks to Mailchimp, Squarespace, and Pitt Writers for sponsoring ...
Episode 350: Taffy Brodesser-Akner
July 10, 2019 19:15 - 1 hourTaffy Brodesser-Akner is a staff writer at the New York Times and the author of Fleishman Is in Trouble: A Novel. “As a profile writer, the skill I have is getting in the room and staying in the room until someone is like, ‘Why is this bitch still in the room? Get her out of there?’ It’s a journalistic skill that is not a fluffy skill. There are people who are always actively trying to prevent your story, prevent you from seeing it, from seeing the things that would be good to see. There’s a...
Episode 156: Renata Adler
July 03, 2019 13:23 - 1 hourRenata Adler is a journalist, critic, and novelist. Her nonfiction collection is After the Tall Timber. “Unless you're going to be fairly definite, what's the point of writing?” Thanks to Mailchimp and Pitt Writers for sponsoring this week's episode. Adler on Longform Adler's New Yorker archive [7:00] I, Libertine (Theodore Sturgeon • Ballantine Books • 1956) [8:00] After Tall Timber: Collected Nonfiction (Ballantine Books • 2015) [9:00] "Letter from Selma" (New Yorker • Apr 1965) [9:00] "...
Episode 349: Alex Mar
June 26, 2019 18:20 - 1 hourAlex Mar has written for The Believer, Wired, and New York. She is the author of Witches of America and the director of the documentary American Mystic. “I really do believe that all of us run on some kind of desire for meaning. And if someone is an atheist and they don’t subscribe to an organized system, it doesn’t mean that they don’t crave something. Maybe it’s their job. Or maybe it’s the way that they raise their children with a certain kind of intense focus. Or something else. As human...
Episode 348: David Epstein
June 19, 2019 15:46 - 53 minutesDavid Epstein has reported for ProPublica, Sports Illustrated, and This American Life. His new book is Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World. “You can’t just introspect or take a personality quiz and know what you’re good at or interested in. You actually have to try stuff and then reflect on it. That’s how you learn about yourself—otherwise, your insight into yourself is constrained by your roster of experiences.” Thanks to MailChimp, Time Sensitive, Read This Summer, The ...
Episode 347: Michael Pollan
June 12, 2019 16:43 - 58 minutesMichael Pollan writes for The New York Times Magazine and The New Yorker and is the author of nine books. His latest is How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence. “I don’t like writing as an expert. I’m fine doing public speeches as an expert. Or writing op-ed pieces as an expert. But as a writer, it’s a killer. Nobody likes an expert. Nobody likes to be lectured at. And if you’ve read anythin...
Episode 346: Casey Cep
June 05, 2019 18:13 - 51 minutesCasey Cep has written for The New Yorker, The New York Times, and The New Republic. She is the author of Furious Hours: Murder, Fraud, and the Last Trial of Harper Lee. “I want to meet all of these expectations. I want my book to be a page-turner. I want it to be a beautiful literary object. I want it to sell. I want it to do all of these things. But at the end of the day, I just want to feel like I’ve honored this commitment between writer and reader, and writer and source. And those are so...
Episode 345: Mark Adams
May 29, 2019 18:51 - 48 minutesMark Adams is the author of Mr. America and Turn Right at Machu Picchu. His latest book is Tip of the Iceberg: My 3,000-Mile Journey Around Wild Alaska, the Last Great American Frontier. “It’s always sheer and utter panic the whole time I’m on the road. I never sleep more than like three or four hours a night when I’m on the road because I wake up at 4:00 in the morning and I’m like, Who am I going to talk to today? I don’t have anything scheduled for today. What am I going to do? Sometimes ...
Episode 344: Emily Bazelon
May 22, 2019 17:45 - 1 hourEmily Bazelon is a staff writer at the New York Times Magazine and a co-host of Political Gabfest. Her latest book is Charged: The New Movement to Transform American Prosecution and End Mass Incarceration. “I'm pretty convinced that if everybody went to criminal court we would not have courts that are dysfunctional the way our courts are. Because what you see every day is a lot of dysfunction and disrespect. It’s kind of deadening. Most people—especially most middle and upper-class people i...
Episode 343: Sloane Crosley
May 15, 2019 14:54 - 1 hourSloane Crosley is the author of I Was Told There’d Be Cake and How Did You Get This Number. Her latest essay collection is Look Alive Out There. “The more extreme things get in reality, the more extreme escapism has to be. It’s like Game of Thrones or bust. But in reality, I think that part of what I’m trying to do with this book, or in anything I write, is to give permission to be mad about little things. Just because there’s all of this, someone still slid their hand down a subway pole and...
Episode 342: Christine Kenneally
May 08, 2019 18:56 - 1 hourChristine Kenneally has written for The New Yorker, The New York Times, and The Monthly. Her 2018 Buzzfeed article, “The Ghosts of the Orphanage,” was nominated for a National Magazine Award. "I understood that the abuse was a big part of the story. But the thing that really hooked me and disturbed me and I wouldn’t forget was the depersonalization that went on in these places. It wasn’t just that the records had been lost along the way. It became really clear that the information was intent...
Episode 341: David Wallace-Wells
May 01, 2019 16:34 - 1 hourDavid Wallace-Wells is the deputy editor of New York and the author of The Uninhabitable Earth: Life After Warming. “Between 1.5 degrees and 2 degrees of warming, just that extra half degree of warming, is going to kill 150 million people from air pollution alone. That’s 25 times the death toll of the Holocaust. And when I say that to people, their eyes open. They’re like oh my god, this is suffering on such an unconscionable scale. And it is. But 9 million people are dying already every yea...
Episode 340: Linda Villarosa
April 24, 2019 14:48 - 54 minutesLinda Villarosa directs the journalism program at the City College of New York and is a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine. Her article "Why America’s Black Mothers and Babies Are in a Life-or-Death Crisis" was one of Longform's Top Ten of 2018. She is at work on a new book, Under the Skin: Race, Inequality and the Health of a Nation, due out in 2020. “I think at the beginning I was afraid to say it right out, so I think I was saying ‘racial bias’ or something like that. Then...
Episode 339: Michael Lewis
April 17, 2019 16:22 - 53 minutesMichael Lewis is the author of several bestselling books and the host of the podcast Against the Rules. “I think anything you do, if it’s going to be any good, there’s got to be some risk involved. I think the reader or the listener will sense that you were taking chances and it will excite them. So, you never want to do the same thing twice, and you don’t want to cling to something because it’s the safe thing. I try to keep that in mind. Ok, I started with this, but if I push off shore clin...
Episode 338: Hillary Frank
April 10, 2019 18:33 - 45 minutesHillary Frank is the creator of The Longest Shortest Time podcast and the author of Weird Parenting Wins. “I think motherhood is not valued in our culture. We don’t value the work of mothers both at home and then at work. Mothers are the most discriminated against people at work. They’re discriminated more against than fathers or people without children. Mothers are promoted less, hired less, and paid less. People are forced out of their jobs after they announce that they’re pregnant, they’r...
Episode 337: Casey Newton
April 03, 2019 14:43 - 57 minutesCasey Newton covers technology for The Verge and writes The Interface newsletter. “I remember one time a Facebook employee told me when I wrote something critical and I said something like, ‘Yeah, I know that one was a little harder on you.’ I remember he said to me, ‘Please understand that this helps to make the case internally for changes we want to make.’ When this type of criticism get published when we know that this is the conversation, we can push for these kinds of changes on the ins...
Episode 336: Wesley Morris
March 27, 2019 15:14 - 54 minutesWesley Morris is a critic at large for The New York Times, a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine, and the co-host of Still Processing. “I think that the taking of extra time to be more thoughtful and less reactive is, to the extent that I have any wisdom to impart, that is it. Just wait a second. Because someone’s going to get there before you get there anyway.” Thanks to MailChimp and Pitt Writers for sponsoring this week's episode. The Mastermind (Evan Ratliff • Random House • 2...
Special Episode: Evan Ratliff, author of The Mastermind
March 25, 2019 02:52 - 1 hourEvan Ratliff, a co-host of the Longform Podcast, is the author of The Mastermind: Drugs. Empire. Murder. Betrayal. “We’re all less moral than we think we are, including myself. I’m interested in the justifications people provide for themselves to get deep into something that starts as one thing and ends up as a murderous criminal cartel. Paul Le Roux, sure—but also doctors and pharmacists. It’s interesting to think about where the pressures in our lives create moral ambiguity that we didn't ...
Episode 335: Kiese Laymon
March 20, 2019 19:09 - 1 hourKiese Laymon is the author of How to Slowly Kill Yourself and Others in America and Heavy: An American Memoir. “It's ironic to me that my mom was the woman who taught me how to read—she was the black woman who taught me how to read and write—and everything I wrote outside of my house I was taught not to write to my mama. I just think that’s where we are as black writers and black creators in this country. Literally because most of our teachers are white. Principals are white. The standards a...
Episode 334: Patrick Radden Keefe
March 13, 2019 15:45 - 1 hourPatrick Radden Keefe is a New Yorker staff writer. His latest book is Say Nothing: A True Story of Murder and Memory in Northern Ireland. “What was strange for me was that it was before I was born, almost a half-century ago. I went to Belfast and asked people about it and you could see the fear on people’s faces. So this notion that this event that’s older than I am still felt so radioactive in the present day was challenging from a reporting point of view, but it also, at every step along t...
Episode 333: Rosecrans Baldwin
March 06, 2019 17:07 - 1 hourRosecrans Baldwin is a writer and regular contributor to GQ. His latest novel is The Last Kid Left. “It requires a lot of preparation in order to just have lunch with Roger Federer. Being a person who tends toward anxiety and also a former Boy Scout—put those two things together and I will exhaustively prepare so that I can come across like a complete idiot. The idea of sitting down with someone like that is that you should know everything about their life and their career so that you can go...
Episode 332: Christie Aschwanden
February 27, 2019 17:08 - 58 minutesThe Mastermind (Evan Ratliff • Random House • 2019) @cragcrest Aschwanden's personal site [3:40] Aschwanden's archive at 538 [3:45] Good to Go: What the Athlete in All of Us Can Learn from the Strange Science of Recovery (W. W. Norton & Company • 2019) [5:20] Fleishman Is in Trouble: A Novel (Taffy Brodesser-Akner • Random House • 2019) [13:35] Courage Camp: A Master Class on the Business of Freelancing [17:35] Aschwanden's freelancing archive [25:40] "The Change in Mammogram Guidelin...
Episode 331: Lydia Polgreen
February 20, 2019 19:15 - 1 hourLydia Polgreen, former foreign correspondent and director of NYT Global at The New York Times, is the editor in chief of HuffPost. “Like a lot of people, I think I went a little bit crazy after Donald Trump got elected. ... If Hillary Clinton had won the election, I have a feeling that I would still be a mid-level manager at The New York Times. But after the election, I really started to think about journalism, about my role in it, about who journalism was serving and who it was for, and I j...
Episode 330: Thomas Morton
February 13, 2019 19:56 - 1 hourThomas Morton is a writer and former correspondent for HBO's _Vice News_. He was at Vice from 2004-2019 and is a major character in Jill Abramson's _Merchants of Truth_. “You have to go with your gut and I feel like that’s one of the most essential qualities in doing anything of the nature of what we did. Of making documentaries or reporting news or current events, you really have to have a good sense of intuition for who you’re dealing with, what they’re telling you, what you’re telling the...
Episode 329: David Grann
February 06, 2019 12:32 - 1 hourDavid Grann is a staff writer for the New Yorker. His new book is The White Darkness. “I do think in life, and in reporting, that reckoning with failure is a part of the process. And reckoning with your own limitations. I think that’s probably the arc and change I have made as I get older. Just as O’Shea doesn’t get the squid, failure is such an integral part of life and what you make of it. Too often we’re always focused on the success side, and I don’t always think the successes teach us a...
Episode 328: Tommy Tomlinson
January 30, 2019 19:52 - 1 hourTommy Tomlinson, a former newspaper columnist, is the host of Southbound podcast. His new book is The Elephant in the Room: One Fat Man's Quest to Get Smaller in a Growing America. “The thing that galvanized me was the death of my sister. I signed the contract November 2014, she died Christmas Eve of that year. She had been overweight just like me. She was older than me and died from complications, an infection that was directly connected to her weight. And that more than anything made me th...
Episode 327: Julie Snyder
January 23, 2019 17:57 - 1 hourJulie Snyder, one of the first producers at This American Life, is the co-creator of Serial and S-Town. Serial Season 3 is out now. “I am constantly second-guessing myself. I am full of regret and recrimination all the time. I don’t pride myself on it cause it probably goes too far, but in other ways I do feel like I am a person who is very flawed and I make mistakes and I try and learn from them. And I try to be very open to other people’s thoughts and input and everything like that. So to ...
Episode 326: Doug Bock Clark
January 16, 2019 19:48 - 55 minutesDoug Bock Clark has written for GQ, Wired, and The New Yorker. His new book is The Last Whalers: Three Years in the Far Pacific with a Courageous Tribe and a Vanishing Way of Life. “I think for me the answer has always been you just find the people. You just listen to their stories. I think we're all microcosms, right? We're all fractals of the bigger world. Whether it's my own life or your life or the Lamalerans or other people I've encountered reporting. I think one of the things I'm const...
Episode 325: Lizzie Johnson
January 09, 2019 17:44 - 57 minutesLizzie Johnson covers wildfires for the San Francisco Chronicle. “It’s kind of like when you’re a beginning journalist and you have to write an obituary—calling the family of the person who died seems like this insurmountable, very invasive task and you really don’t want to do it. That’s kind of how I felt about interviewing fire victims at first. I felt like I was somehow intruding on their grief and their pain. But somewhere along the way I realized there’s healing power in talking about w...
Episode 324: Malcolm Gladwell
January 02, 2019 19:46 - 49 minutesMalcolm Gladwell is a New Yorker staff writer, the author The Tipping Point and Blink, and the host of Revisionist History. His new podcast is Broken Record. “The loveliest thing is to interview someone who’s never been interviewed before. To sort of watch them in a totally novel experience. Particularly when you’re interviewing them about things they never thought were worthy of an interview. That’s a really lovely experience. It’s like watching a kid on a roller coaster for the first time....
Episode 243: Samin Nosrat, host and author of "Salt Fat Acid Heat"
December 26, 2018 16:34 - 54 minutesSamin Nosrat is a food writer, educator, and chef. She is the author of Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat and hosts a series by the same name on Netflix. “I kind of couldn’t exist as just a cook or a writer. I kind of need to be both. Because they fulfill these two totally different parts of myself and my brain. Cooking is really social, it’s very physical, and also you don’t have any time to become attached to your product. You hand it off and somebody eats it, and literally tomorrow it’s shit. … Where...