How to Fix Democracy artwork

How to Fix Democracy

201 episodes - English - Latest episode: 24 days ago - ★★★★★ - 18 ratings

Since its origins, democracy has been a work in progress. Today, many question its resilience.

How to Fix Democracy, a collaboration of the Bertelsmann Foundation and Humanity in Action, explores practical solutions for how to address the increasing threats democracy faces. Host Andrew Keen interviews prominent international thinkers and practitioners of democracy.

News Society & Culture Philosophy democracy dictators illiberal liberal populism technology
Homepage Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Overcast Castro Pocket Casts RSS feed

Episodes

Peter Wehner and Jonathan Rauch

April 19, 2022 17:09 - 47 minutes - 43.9 MB

The crisis of the American Right | Authors Peter Wehner and Jon Rauch recently published a New York Times Opinion piece entitled “What’s Happening on the Left is No Excuse for What’s Happening on the Right.” As conservative researchers, they have a unique position to observe and analyze the recent shifts in the American political right. In the latest episode of How to Fix Democracy, Peter Wehner and Jon Rauch join host Andrew Keen to discuss the history and implications of the stark transform...

Tocqueville's Take on Democracy | Featuring Cheryl Welch and Arthur Goldhammer

March 16, 2022 19:59 - 42 minutes - 38.5 MB

Tocqueville's Take on Democracy Harvard University professors Cheryl Welch and Arthur Goldhammer are world-renowned experts and translators of the work of Alexis de Tocqueville. They kick off Season 4 of How To Fix Democracy by joining host Andrew Keen for a discussion of Tocqueville's famous observational text, "Democracy in America." Our fourth season of the podcast will focus on just that: democracy in the United States. How do Tocqueville's observations apply to the 21st century? What ...

Cheryl Welch and Arthur Goldhammer

March 16, 2022 19:59 - 42 minutes - 38.5 MB

Tocqueville's Take on Democracy | Harvard University professors Cheryl Welch and Arthur Goldhammer are world-renowned experts and translators of the work of Alexis de Tocqueville. They kick off Season 4 of How To Fix Democracy by joining host Andrew Keen for a discussion of Tocqueville's famous observational text, "Democracy in America." Our fourth season of the podcast will focus on just that: democracy in the United States. How do Tocqueville's observations apply to the 21st century? What d...

Jon Alexander

December 22, 2021 12:07 - 40 minutes - 55.9 MB

The roles of citizens | Jon Alexander is the founder of The New Citizenship Project and speaks in this interview with host Andrew Keen about the conflict between our roles as citizens and consumers. From the psychology of marketing and the formation of the modern citizen to what a crowdfunded brewery can teach us about restructuring decision-making and profit-driven thinking, this interview helps illustrate the influence of democracy and capitalism on human behavior and what we can do to gui...

The Roles of Citizens | Featuring Jon Alexander

December 22, 2021 12:07 - 40 minutes - 55.9 MB

The Roles of Citizens  Jon Alexander is the founder of The New Citizenship Project and speaks in this interview with host Andrew Keen about the conflict between our roles as citizens and consumers. From the psychology of marketing and the formation of the modern citizen to what a crowdfunded brewery can teach us about restructuring decision-making and profit-driven thinking, this interview helps illustrate the influence of democracy and capitalism on human behavior and what we can do to gu...

Democracy in Pain | Featuring Patrick Radden Keefe

December 09, 2021 15:06 - 40 minutes - 56.2 MB

Democracy in Pain  Patrick Radden Keefe is a writer and investigative journalist whose recent book, Empire of Pain, delves into the opioid crisis in the United States. In this interview, co-hosted by Andrew Keen and the John Adams Institute director Tracy Metz, Patrick explains some of the lessons from this story for repairing democracy in America. In many ways, the saga of the opioid crisis reflects a topic covered often in this series: the troubled relationship between corporate power an...

Patrick Radden Keefe

December 09, 2021 15:06 - 40 minutes - 56.2 MB

Democracy in pain | Patrick Radden Keefe is a writer and investigative journalist whose recent book, Empire of Pain, delves into the opioid crisis in the United States. In this interview, co-hosted by Andrew Keen and the John Adams Institute director Tracy Metz, Patrick explains some of the lessons from this story for repairing democracy in America. In many ways, the saga of the opioid crisis reflects a topic covered often in this series: the troubled relationship between corporate power and...

David van Reybrouck

November 24, 2021 15:15 - 31 minutes - 43.8 MB

Examining elections | David van Reybrouck is a Belgian author, historian, archaeologist, and the National Endowment for the Humanities / Hannah Arendt Center Fellow at Bard College in New York. He and Andrew Keen take a multifaceted approach to deliberative democracy and the structural challenges of democratic practices today. Are elections as we know them today indispensable to democracy? Are there other kinds of decision-making processes that can empower citizens instead of elevating elite...

Examining Elections | Featuring David van Reybrouck

November 24, 2021 15:15 - 31 minutes - 43.8 MB

Examining Elections  David van Reybrouck is a Belgian author, historian, archaeologist, and the National Endowment for the Humanities / Hannah Arendt Center Fellow at Bard College in New York. He and Andrew Keen take a multifaceted approach to deliberative democracy and the structural challenges of democratic practices today. Are elections as we know them today indispensable to democracy? Are there other kinds of decision-making processes that can empower citizens instead of elevating elit...

Innovating Democracy | Featuring Claudia Chwalisz

November 10, 2021 18:45 - 40 minutes - 55.1 MB

Innovating Democracy  Claudia Chwalisz is the Innovative Citizen Participation Lead at the OECD Directorate for Public Governance. In this interview, she talks with host Andrew Keen about the importance of innovation in democratic governance to shift away from structures that encourage short-term thinking. Deliberative democracy, Chwalisz argues, can help engage citizens in the decision making process without presenting them with oversimplified or false choices, as can be the danger with r...

Claudia Chwalisz

November 10, 2021 18:45 - 40 minutes - 55.1 MB

Innovating democracy | Claudia Chwalisz is the Innovative Citizen Participation Lead at the OECD Directorate for Public Governance. In this interview, she talks with host Andrew Keen about the importance of innovation in democratic governance to shift away from structures that encourage short-term thinking. Deliberative democracy, Chwalisz argues, can help engage citizens in the decision making process without presenting them with oversimplified or false choices, as can be the danger with re...

Darryl Pinckney

October 20, 2021 13:30 - 36 minutes - 50.8 MB

The state of American democracy | American novelist, playwright, and essayist Darryl Pinckney takes host Andrew Keen on a tour d’horizon of the state of American democracy, from the current political discourse to the impact of identity politics, cancel culture, social media, and the role of education in teaching the young generation what it means to be a citizen.

The State of American Democracy | Featuring Darryl Pinckney

October 20, 2021 13:30 - 36 minutes - 50.8 MB

The State of American Democracy American novelist, playwright, and essayist Darryl Pinckney takes host Andrew Keen on a tour d’horizon of the state of American democracy, from the current political discourse to the impact of identity politics, cancel culture, social media, and the role of education in teaching the young generation what it means to be a citizen.

Democracy Delivering Results | Featuring Danilo Türk

September 15, 2021 10:47 - 48 minutes - 67.1 MB

Democracy Delivering Results On the occasion of the International Day of Democracy, host Andrew Keen sat down with Danilo Türk, former President of Slovenia and currently President of Club de Madrid for a review of the challenges facing democracies around the world today. The basis of liberal democracy, they discuss, must be reinvented, not just reinterpreted or revived. From electoral systems to the interaction between the economy and politics, Türk argues that international collaboration...

Danilo Türk

September 15, 2021 10:47 - 48 minutes - 67.1 MB

Democracy delivering results | On the occasion of the International Day of Democracy, host Andrew Keen sat down with Danilo Türk, former President of Slovenia and currently President of Club de Madrid for a review of the challenges facing democracies around the world today. The basis of liberal democracy, they discuss, must be reinvented, not just reinterpreted or revived. From electoral systems to the interaction between the economy and politics, Türk argues that international collaboration...

Hélène Landemore

September 08, 2021 09:56 - 40 minutes - 55.8 MB

Fostering collaboration | Hélène Landemore is Professor of Political Science at Yale University. In this interview, she talks with host Andrew Keen about a wide range of innovations and influences on democracy. They discuss how to engage citizens, from experiments like citizen assemblies to finding ways to increase more regular participation in politics. The answer, Landemore says, could be technology, if only it were used more creatively to encourage democracy rather than for entertainment.

Fostering Collaboration | Featuring Hélène Landemore

September 08, 2021 09:56 - 40 minutes - 55.8 MB

Fostering Collaboration  Hélène Landemore is Professor of Political Science at Yale University. In this interview, she talks with host Andrew Keen about a wide range of innovations and influences on democracy. They discuss how to engage citizens, from experiments like citizen assemblies to finding ways to increase more regular participation in politics. The answer, Landemore says, could be technology, if only it were used more creatively to encourage democracy rather than for entertainment.

David Stasavage

August 16, 2021 09:09 - 33 minutes - 45.5 MB

Non-western democracies | David Stasavage is the Dean for Social Sciences at New York University, and the author of The Decline and Rise of Democracy. Stasavage and host Andrew Keen go over some non-western examples of early democracies, departing from the lineage of Athenian democracy. From elections, to bureaucracy and conceptions of meritocracy, they discuss the components of democratic governance that have aided and hindered its success throughout history.

Non-Western Democracies | Featuring David Stasavage

August 16, 2021 09:09 - 33 minutes - 45.5 MB

Non-Western Democracies David Stasavage is the Dean for Social Sciences at New York University, and the author of The Decline and Rise of Democracy. Stasavage and host Andrew Keen go over some non-western examples of early democracies, departing from the lineage of Athenian democracy. From elections, to bureaucracy and conceptions of meritocracy, they discuss the components of democratic governance that have aided and hindered its success throughout history.

DeLesslin "Roo" George-Warren

July 28, 2021 10:45 - 39 minutes - 53.8 MB

A political wilderness? | DeLesslin “Roo” George-Warren is a queer artist, researcher, and organizer from Catawba Indian Nation and a Humanity in Action Landecker Fellow. He talks with host Andrew Keen about Catawba Nation views of property, democracy, and the environment in the search for an indigenous view of the meaning of citizenship. Just as arriving Europeans falsely viewed the North American landscape as wilderness, when it was in fact masterfully stewarded by indigenous peoples, they...

A Political Wilderness? | Featuring DeLesslin "Roo" George-Warren

July 28, 2021 10:45 - 39 minutes - 53.8 MB

A Political Wilderness?  DeLesslin “Roo” George-Warren is a queer artist, researcher, and organizer from Catawba Indian Nation and a Humanity in Action Landecker Fellow. He talks with host Andrew Keen about Catawba Nation views of property, democracy, and the environment in the search for an indigenous view of the meaning of citizenship. Just as arriving Europeans falsely viewed the North American landscape as wilderness, when it was in fact masterfully stewarded by indigenous peoples, the...

Roya Hakakian

July 09, 2021 14:06 - 30 minutes - 42.2 MB

Roya Hakakian is a writer and poet and the author of A Beginner's Guide to America: For the Immigrant and the Curious. Talking just before July 4th, host Andrew Keen speaks with Roya Hakakian about her own experience coming to the U.S. from Iran, the meaning of America’s Independence Day, and what we should think about during the holiday.

Citizenship and July 4th | Featuring Roya Hakakian

July 09, 2021 14:06 - 30 minutes - 42.2 MB

Citizenship and July 4th Roya Hakakian is a writer and poet and the author of A Beginner's Guide to America: For the Immigrant and the Curious. Talking just before July 4th, host Andrew Keen speaks with Roya Hakakian about her own experience coming to the U.S. from Iran, the meaning of America’s Independence Day, and what we should think about during the holiday.

Bonus Episode: Live with Dr. Carol Anderson

June 23, 2021 19:00 - 59 minutes - 81.5 MB

On June 1st, 2021, we hosted a live session of How to Fix Democracy with Dr. Carol Anderson, Charles Howard Candler Professor of African American Studies at Emory University, to discuss recent voter suppression measures in the United States and her new book, The Second: Race and Guns in a Fatally Unequal America.

Voter Suppression | Featuring Dr. Carol Anderson

June 23, 2021 19:00 - 59 minutes - 81.5 MB

On June 1st, 2021, we hosted a live session of How to Fix Democracy with Dr. Carol Anderson, Charles Howard Candler Professor of African American Studies at Emory University, to discuss recent voter suppression measures in the United States and her new book, The Second: Race and Guns in a Fatally Unequal America.

Digital Democracy and Citizen Engagement | Featuring Wietse Van Ransbeeck

June 18, 2021 12:03 - 34 minutes - 47 MB

Digital Democracy and Citizen Engagement Wietse Van Ransbeeck is the Co-Founder and CEO of the Citizen Lab, a Brussels-based company that works with governments to enable public participation in decision-making. With host Andrew Keen, Van Ransbeeck discusses his goals to make citizenship easier by using new technology to help local democracy be more participatory. In many past How to Fix Democracy interviews, technology’s negative impact on democracy has been highlighted, so it is great to...

Wietse Van Ransbeeck

June 18, 2021 12:03 - 34 minutes - 47 MB

Wietse Van Ransbeeck is the Co-Founder and CEO of the Citizen Lab, a Brussels-based company that works with governments to enable public participation in decision-making. With host Andrew Keen, Van Ransbeeck discusses his goals to make citizenship easier by using new technology to help local democracy be more participatory. In many past How to Fix Democracy interviews, technology’s negative impact on democracy has been highlighted, so it is great to have Van Ransbeeck’s perspective on the po...

Democracy Through the Camera Lens | Featuring Astra Taylor

June 04, 2021 14:49 - 38 minutes - 52.8 MB

Democracy Through the Camera Lens  Astra Taylor is an author and filmmaker whose documentary What is Democracy? covers much of the same ground as our own series, but with a different essential question in mind. In this interview, Astra Taylor and host Andrew Keen reflect on what they drew from ancient Athenian democratic practices in their respective quests to understand democracy and predict what it will look like (and sound like) in the future. From the evolution of citizenship to the im...

Astra Taylor

June 04, 2021 14:49 - 38 minutes - 52.8 MB

Democracy through the camera lens | Astra Taylor is an author and filmmaker whose documentary What is Democracy? covers much of the same ground as our own series, but with a different essential question in mind. In this interview, Astra Taylor and host Andrew Keen reflect on what they drew from ancient Athenian democratic practices in their respective quests to understand democracy and predict what it will look like (and sound like) in the future. From the evolution of citizenship to the imp...

Eric Liu

May 26, 2021 09:56 - 34 minutes - 47.8 MB

Citizen power | Eric Liu is the co-founder and CEO of Citizen University and the Director of the Aspen Institute’s Citizenship and American Identity Program. In this episode that delves into the meaning of citizenship and the nature of power in politics, Liu and host Andrew Keen discuss contemporary conceptions of power in the United States and responsibilities of citizens. There is a tension, especially in America, between individualism and citizen responsibility toward building communities...

Citizen Power | Featuring Eric Liu

May 26, 2021 09:56 - 34 minutes - 47.8 MB

Citizen Power  Eric Liu is the co-founder and CEO of Citizen University and the Director of the Aspen Institute’s Citizenship and American Identity Program. In this episode that delves into the meaning of citizenship and the nature of power in politics, Liu and host Andrew Keen discuss contemporary conceptions of power in the United States and responsibilities of citizens. There is a tension, especially in America, between individualism and citizen responsibility toward building communitie...

Nanjala Nyabola

May 14, 2021 09:50 - 39 minutes - 54.9 MB

What is global citizenship? | Nanjala Nyabola is a writer, political analyst, and activist based in Nairobi, Kenya. In this interview, she talks with host Andrew Keen about the meaning of citizenship especially in relation to global citizenship. If citizenship is related to rights and freedoms in a country, she says, global citizenship means enjoying similar rights and freedom around the world. In reality, as they cover in this fascinating interview, this is a luxury of the few, not the many...

What is Global Citizenship | Featuring Nanjala Nyabola

May 14, 2021 09:50 - 39 minutes - 54.9 MB

What is Global Citizenship? | Nanjala Nyabola is a writer, political analyst, and activist based in Nairobi, Kenya. In this interview, she talks with host Andrew Keen about the meaning of citizenship especially in relation to global citizenship. If citizenship is related to rights and freedoms in a country, she says, global citizenship means enjoying similar rights and freedom around the world. In reality, as they cover in this fascinating interview, this is a luxury of the few, not the many...

Devil's Curse of Migration | Featuring Abdul-Rehman Malik

April 21, 2021 16:54 - 36 minutes - 50.4 MB

Devil’s Curse of Migration  Abdul-Rehman Malik is a journalist, community organizer, and Associate Research Scholar and Lecturer in Islamic Studies at Yale Divinity School. Malik and host Andrew Keen address the contradictions of belonging and inclusion. Migrants, they discuss, face these contradictions constantly, seeking belonging in their new homes, but not excluding their own multifaceted identities. If there is a principal Muslim virtue that can aid conceptions of citizenship and fix ...

Abdul-Rehman Malik

April 21, 2021 16:54 - 36 minutes - 50.4 MB

Devil’s curse of migration | Abdul-Rehman Malik is a journalist, community organizer, and Associate Research Scholar and Lecturer in Islamic Studies at Yale Divinity School. Malik and host Andrew Keen address the contradictions of belonging and inclusion. Migrants, they discuss, face these contradictions constantly, seeking belonging in their new homes, but not excluding their own multifaceted identities. If there is a principal Muslim virtue that can aid conceptions of citizenship and fix d...

Democracy, Citizenship, and Dystopian Fiction | Featuring Margaret Atwood

April 07, 2021 09:08 - 42 minutes - 58.2 MB

Democracy, Citizenship, and Dystopian Fiction  Margaret Atwood is an award-winning author, who has written numerous best-sellers including the 1985 novel The Handmaid’s Tale. In this episode, she discusses with Andrew Keen her impressions of citizenship and the importance of fiction writers in a democracy. Dystopias, Atwood says, show us the future if we do not correct the mistakes of the present, and so writers of dystopian fiction aid democracies by showing the consequences of inaction.

Margaret Atwood

April 07, 2021 09:08 - 42 minutes - 58.2 MB

Democracy, citizenship, and dystopian fiction | Margaret Atwood is an award-winning author, who has written numerous best-sellers including the 1985 novel The Handmaid’s Tale. In this episode, she discusses with Andrew Keen her impressions of citizenship and the importance of fiction writers in a democracy. Dystopias, Atwood says, show us the future if we do not correct the mistakes of the present, and so writers of dystopian fiction aid democracies by showing the consequences of inaction.

Can America Lead Again? | Featuring Tom Malinowski

March 24, 2021 12:52 - 33 minutes - 45.8 MB

Can America Lead Again? Tom Malinowski is the U.S. representative for New Jersey's 7th congressional district and was formerly the Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor in the Obama administration. He and host Andrew Keen discuss the stature of American democracy today in light of the Biden administration’s proposed global Summit for Democracy. Representative Malinowski also discusses his personal story of immigration to America and what it means to be an Amer...

Tom Malinowski

March 24, 2021 12:52 - 33 minutes - 45.8 MB

Can America lead again? | Tom Malinowski is the U.S. representative for New Jersey's 7th congressional district and was formerly the Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor in the Obama administration. He and host Andrew Keen discuss the stature of American democracy today in light of the Biden administration’s proposed global Summit for Democracy. Representative Malinowski also discusses his personal story of immigration to America and what it means to be an Amer...

Smart Cities, Smart Citizens? | Featuring Bianca Wylie

March 10, 2021 15:13 - 34 minutes - 47.3 MB

Smart Cities, Smart Citizens?  Bianca Wylie is co-founder of Digital Public, co-founder of Tech Reset Canada, and Senior Fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. In this episode, she discusses with Andrew Keen the architecture and geography of citizenship from our countries and cities to cyberspace. She argues that digital technology has blurred the lines between public and private spheres with adverse effects for citizenship and democracy. The solution lies with the s...

Bianca Wylie

March 10, 2021 15:13 - 34 minutes - 47.3 MB

Smart cities, smart citizens? | Bianca Wylie is co-founder of Digital Public, co-founder of Tech Reset Canada, and Senior Fellow at the Centre for International Governance Innovation. In this episode, she discusses with Andrew Keen the architecture and geography of citizenship from our countries and cities to cyberspace. She argues that digital technology has blurred the lines between public and private spheres with adverse effects for citizenship and democracy. The solution lies with the st...

Richard Bellamy

February 12, 2021 11:23 - 29 minutes - 40.6 MB

Active, equal, and collective | Richard Bellamy is Professor of Political Science at University College London and the author of Citizenship: A Very Short Introduction. For him, being a citizen today is being an “active and equal participant in sustaining cooperative and collective goods in your political community.” However, the current idea of citizenship contains paradoxes, faces challenges, and is in constant flux. Bellamy and host Andrew Keen explore the whole picture of citizenship as ...

Active, Equal, and Collective | Featuring Richard Bellamy

February 12, 2021 11:23 - 29 minutes - 40.6 MB

Active, Equal, and Collective Richard Bellamy is Professor of Political Science at University College London and the author of Citizenship: A Very Short Introduction. For him, being a citizen today is being an “active and equal participant in sustaining cooperative and collective goods in your political community.” However, the current idea of citizenship contains paradoxes, faces challenges, and is in constant flux. Bellamy and host Andrew Keen explore the whole picture of citizenship as ...

Adrienne Clarkson

January 27, 2021 13:07 - 28 minutes - 39.9 MB

Citizenship and belonging | Adrienne Clarkson is the co-founder of the Institute for Canadian Citizenship and the former Governor General of Canada. Madame Clarkson tells host Andrew Keen her story of coming to Canada, learning what it was to be Canadian, and her journey to becoming Governor General of the country. Along the way, she formed important ideas of what citizenship and belonging means in Canada and around the world.

Citizenship and Belonging | Featuring Adrienne Clarkson

January 27, 2021 13:07 - 28 minutes - 39.9 MB

Citizenship and Belonging  Adrienne Clarkson is the co-founder of the Institute for Canadian Citizenship and the former Governor General of Canada. Madame Clarkson tells host Andrew Keen her story of coming to Canada, learning what it was to be Canadian, and her journey to becoming Governor General of the country. Along the way, she formed important ideas of what citizenship and belonging means in Canada and around the world.

Adam Hochschild

December 09, 2020 14:12 - 27 minutes - 38 MB

The contradictions of human nature | Adam Hochschild is an award-winning author, historian, and journalist. In this interview, hosted by Andrew Keen, he discusses the contradictions within the history of democracy in Europe and America. Hochschild points out that capability of democracies to wage war, torture, and enslave people abroad, while aspiring to uphold enlightened values at home. Beyond historical examples, Hochschild and Keen examine how capitalism and inequality contribute to unfu...

The Contradictions of Human Nature | Featuring Adam Hochschild

December 09, 2020 14:12 - 27 minutes - 38 MB

The Contradictions of Human Nature  Adam Hochschild is an award-winning author, historian, and journalist. In this interview, hosted by Andrew Keen, he discusses the contradictions within the history of democracy in Europe and America. Hochschild points out that capability of democracies to wage war, torture, and enslave people abroad, while aspiring to uphold enlightened values at home. Beyond historical examples, Hochschild and Keen examine how capitalism and inequality contribute to unf...

Human Capital-ism | Featuring Daniel Markovits

November 24, 2020 14:06 - 24 minutes - 34 MB

Human Capital-ism Daniel Markovits is Guido Calabresi Professor of Law at Yale Law School. In this interview with Andrew Keen, he explains how the accumulation of human capital--the skills and education that enable advanced economies--has been captured by the elites. But, he argues, because these skilled workers in fields like law and finance are also laborers, they find themselves alienated in the Marxist sense, despite also achieving higher and higher incomes. To help fix democracy, Mark...

Daniel Markovits

November 24, 2020 14:06 - 24 minutes - 34 MB

Human capital-ism | Daniel Markovits is Guido Calabresi Professor of Law at Yale Law School. In this interview with Andrew Keen, he explains how the accumulation of human capital--the skills and education that enable advanced economies--has been captured by the elites. But, he argues, because these skilled workers in fields like law and finance are also laborers, they find themselves alienated in the Marxist sense, despite also achieving higher and higher incomes. To help fix democracy, Mark...

Jan Sowa

November 20, 2020 16:52 - 27 minutes - 38.5 MB

No nostalgia | Jan Sowa is an Associate Professor at the Academy of Fine Arts in Warsaw, Poland. In this interview, he explains the Marxist view of capitalism as more than an economic system. The social and cultural aspects of a capitalist system are just as important and have shaped democracy in the modern era. In Sowa’s view, democracy must continue to develop beyond its current structures and practices to incorporate new ideas for better representation.