Drum History
257 episodes - English - Latest episode: 18 days ago - ★★★★★ - 218 ratingsA podcast all about the rich history of the drums - and how they became what they are today! Join Bart van der Zee as he speaks with experts about the curious journey of the ever-evolving drum set.
Homepage Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Overcast Castro Pocket Casts RSS feed
Episodes
Drumsticks of the Legends with Chris Bennett
June 29, 2021 04:00 - 58 minutesChris owns Bopworks drumsticks and he has recreated drumstick models of some of the most legendary players in drum history. Gene Krupa, Shelly Manne, Art Blakey, Mel Lewis are some of the stick's that Chris has gotten the rights to recreate and produce in Austin, Texas. He teaches us the process he had to go through to get the rights from the familys of these legends and then getting the sticks made. We also discuss the impact the different types of sticks can have on the sound and feel of cy...
Drumsticks of the Legends with with Chris Bennett
June 29, 2021 04:00 - 55 minutesChris owns Bopworks drumsticks and he has recreated drumstick models of some of the most legendary players in drum history. Gene Krupa, Shelly Manne, Art Blakey, Mel Lewis are some of the stick's that Chris has gotten the rights to recreate and produce in Austin, Texas. He teaches us the process he had to go through to get the rights from the familys of these legends and then getting the sticks made. We also discuss the impact the different types of sticks can have on the sound and feel of cy...
The History of Zickos Drums with Wes Faulconer
June 22, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourBill Zickos was the inventor of Acrylic Drums in 1959 and changed the drum world forever when clear drums went to market a decade later thanks to famous drummers using them such as Keith Moon, Bill Ward, Ron Bushy, and even John Bonham. Bill passed away at age 90 in 2020 and left a huge legacy in the community. His unique and inventive techniques of making drum shells and creating hardware was way ahead of its time, and his story is full of ups and downs like all the great drum history storie...
Tony Williams Clinic Breakdown (1982) with Rob Hart
June 15, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourThis is a very fun episode where Rob Hart plays us multiple clips from a Tony Williams clinic that he tape recorded in 1982 in Boston. We break down each segment and Rob gives us his first hand experiences from being a student of Tony in the early 90's in the San Francisco Bay Area. We hear tony talk about his famous ride patterns, setting up his kit, hi-hat work, using brushes, and much more - and then each topic has a great explanation and discussion with Rob. Learn more about everything Ro...
20 years of Prologix Percussion with Jason Edwards
June 08, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourPrologix is celebrating 20 years of creating innovative and high quality practice pads that have become an industry standard. I sit down with company founder, Jason Edwards, about the origins of starting the company in his garage, then slowly growing the business, up to winning multiple "best in shows" at NAMM, to the modern days where Prologix are an international company that has some of the biggest names in the industry as endorsers. Jason also had a long relationship with the legendary Ji...
Before Ringo and Best: The Colin Hanton Story
June 01, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourColin Hanton was the original drummer for the Quarrymen which featured John Lennon, Paul McCartney, and George Harrison in Liverpool circa 1956. He shares the amazing story of first meeting John Lennon and then the group evolving and growing gig by gig and adding the other future Beatles as time went on. It is amazing to hear the difficulties they faced trying to scrape together money to buy instruments and afford a 2 song EP which is an incredible story all in itself. We cover when Colin lef...
The History of A&F Drum Co. with Ramy Antoun
May 25, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourA&F is celebrating their 5 year anniversary and Ramy Antoun, founder of the company, joins me to discuss the history of the company, his personal background as a successful drummer both on the road and in the studio. A&F is a one of a kind brand that has exploded in popularity in a very short time and stands out with the unique art deco designs and timeless inventions that Ramy is bringing to the drum world. Enjoy this great conversation with a true innovator in the community! Check out A&F h...
100th Episode Special - Get to know Bart with Spencer van der Zee
May 18, 2021 04:38 - 1 hourIn this special 100th episode, Bart gets interviewed by his brother, Spencer, and discusses his background in drumming, audio engineering and the podcast in general. I figure after 100 episodes I should probably let people know some more info about me and how I got to this point. Thanks so much to everyone who has enjoyed the show over the last few years, and shared it with friends, and sent me such great messages. I am just getting started and have a long way to go! Big thanks to my brother ...
The History of Cable Tension Drums with Bryan Bedson
May 11, 2021 03:48 - 1 hourBryan is the founder of Dialtune drums and he tells us about some examples of cable tension drums that he discovered in his journey to create a modern day drum that is easily tuned with just two knobs. A cable tension drum by definition is a drum that uses a system of pulleys with cable or string/rope to make it possible to tune the drum using one point of tension, typically a knob or a key. The drums that Bryan teaches us about from his patent search are really remarkable, and I share my exp...
The Roots of Reggae Drumming with Gil Sharone
May 04, 2021 04:00 - 56 minutesGil is a world renowned drummer who shares his deep passion and knowledge for Reggae drumming in this great episode. He takes us through all the sub genres such as ska, rocksteady, dub, and dancehall. Plus he teaches us about the legends in Reggae drumming such as Lloyd Knibb and Carlton Barrett and the gear that these Jamaican drummers would use when playing with icons such as Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Lee Perry and many more. Here is some more info on Gil: Los Angeles native, Gil Sharone, is ...
A Look at Rope Tension Drums with Bill Whitney
April 27, 2021 02:40 - 1 hourBill takes us back over a thousand years to learn the origins of rope tension drums and how the technology evolved over the centuries. We learn about shell construction, head types, guts and snare history, and much much more. Bill is a wealth of information and is the man behind Calderwood Percussion. He is a master drum builder and an all around great musician on many instruments. Check out Calderwood Percussion here: https://www.calderwoodpercussion.com/ Be sure to check out the Patreon bon...
The History of Acrylic Drums with Jim DeRogatis
April 20, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourJim is an extremely respected music critic on the radio, but he is a drummer at his core. He shares his passion and knowledge of acrylic drums with us starting in 1959 with Zickos, into the 70's with Fibes, and the explosion of popularity with the Vistalites thanks to John Bonham. We discuss the evolution of acrylic shell construction, the color varieties of the extremely unique Ludwig stripe kits, the players who made these drums famous like Billy Cobham and Karen Carpenter, and tons of othe...
The History of Ludwig Bass Drum Pedals with Steve Zemanek
April 13, 2021 02:39 - 53 minutesSteve takes us through all the decades of Ludwig bass drum pedals starting in 1909 with the iconic first commercially produced bass drum pedal that completely changed the world of drumming, up to the modern re-introduction of the Speed King. Steve is a passionate collector of Ludwig bass drum pedals and wrote a new book called "The Ludwig Line: Bass Drum Pedals" that is full of detailed descriptions and photos of his collection that covers most everyLudwig pedal that was ever made. He is only...
Legendary Teachers: Alan Dawson with John Ramsay
April 06, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourJohn was a student of Alan Dawson for many years and shares many of his experiences with Alan and a great spotlight on the life of this truly legendary teacher. We hear what it was like to walk into the room and learn from Alan Dawson using his extremely musical and innovative techniques. Alan would squeeze the absolute most out of books such as Syncopation and Stick Control, along with countless other ways that teaching Alan became the icon he is today. John Ramsay is the former chair of the...
Debunking Cymbal Myths with NickyMoon
March 30, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourNick and I discuss 11 different popular cymbal myths in this episode, many of which were submitted by listeners of the podcast! We cover things such as "old cymbals are always better", "hand hammering is automatically good", "covering my cymbal in ketchup makes it sound better", and many more. This is a really fun episode where I learned a ton from my pal Nick Margarite aka NickyMoon. Nick is a great independent cymbal maker based out of New Jersey and the man behind NickyMoon cymbals. Check ...
The History of Military Tattoos with Mark Reilly
March 23, 2021 04:00 - 1 hourA Military Tattoo is a ceremony that dates back to the early 17th century in the Netherlands when Drummers would notify the soldiers at the local bars at 9:30pm that it is time to return to the barracks. This was known as "Doe Den Tap Toe " or "Turn Off The Taps". This tradition continued and evolved over the centuries to be a nightly ceremony that was designed to entertain in the summer months, Fast forward to modern days and it is a worldwide, mega event that celebrates the best drummers an...
The History of Bosphorus Cymbals with Emrah Sipahi
March 16, 2021 04:00 - 52 minutesThis is the full history of Bosphorus Cymbals - A traditional handmade Turkish cymbal brand that has been around since 1996, but has what seems like centuries of knowledge and expertise. The tale of Bosphorus is tied into the other major company that originated in Turkey that we all know about, but once they left the country many cymbal makers were left with a mastery of the art and that knowledge was passed on to the founders of Bosphorus Cymbals. = Check out Bosphorus here: http://www.bosph...
A Look at 1920's Drummers with Nicholas D. Ball
March 09, 2021 05:00 - 1 hourNicholas and I dissect 9 amazing audio examples of 1920's drummers including Zutty Singleton, Baby Dodds, Gene Krupa and many other greats in this episode. We also talk about that bizarre restrictions that were placed on drummers in the 20's in recording studios which is a fascinating and not largely known topic. We talk gear, playing styles, and the great musicians of the day and lots of other great information along the way. - Nicks website is a great resource for everything you want to kno...
The History of Electronic Drums with Justin Greenawalt
March 02, 2021 05:00 - 1 hourThis is an in-depth look at Electronic Drums dating back to the 1960's with Justin Greenawalt of 65 Drums on YouTube. Justin has an incredible passion and knowledge for e-drums and he has done tons of research to understand the full history of the instrument and shares it with us to cover each decade of the history and we end with discussing what we can look forward to in the future of electronic drum kits. Here are the links to Justin's extremely detailed and great videos on the history of ...
The Biography of Tony Williams with Dave Goodman
February 23, 2021 05:00 - 1 hourTony Williams began playing professionally at the young age of 13, but he gained international attention when he joined the Miles Davis Quintet at age 17. My guest, Dave Goodman, wrote his 100,000 word doctoral thesis on Tony and we have condensed all that great information into an hour long episode that covers Tony's early life, lessons with Alan Dawson, rise to fame, evolution of his equipment, and everything you would want to know about the great Tony Williams. Dave Goodman is located in S...
The History of Tama Drums with John Palmer
February 16, 2021 05:00 - 1 hourTama's parent company, Hoshino Gakki, dates back 113 years to 1908 in Japan where it started a book and sheet music seller. Hoshino then entered the world of distribution and later instrument production with the Spanish guitar brand - Ibanez. Hoshino didn't enter the drum world until the early 60's as Star Drums, and the world was never the same. Star was a leader in the "Made in Japan" revolution of drums, until the 1970's when star transitioned to Tama Drums and they became a major player i...
Legendary Teachers: Freddie Gruber with Bruce Becker
February 09, 2021 05:11 - 1 hourFreddie Gruber is known as the teacher of iconic drummers such as Neil Peart, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Smith, Dave Weckl, and my guest Bruce Becker. Freddie has somewhat of a mysterious background that wasn't well documented, but Bruce fills us in on what is known about his life and career, plus many great stories of what it what it was like to be on the inner circle of his friends. Freddie was a real character of a person and you really get a feel for that with this episode. Bruce Becker is le...
The History of Drum Lessons with Mike Johnston
February 02, 2021 05:00 - 1 hourMike takes us back to the advent of the drum set and how people would learn to play in the early 1900's and how things have and haven't changed over the years. We go through each advancement in education including face to face lessons, lessons on records (LP's), drum books with CD's, drum tapes and DVD's, online lessons, and what the future holds for the world of drum lessons. Mike Johnston is a leader in the world of online drum lessons and has a contagious passion for education. Check out e...
The Ultimate Gene Krupa Gear Guide with Brooks Tegler
January 26, 2021 05:00 - 59 minutesBrooks has recently released his long awaited book -"The Tools That Built The Gene Krupa Legend". After a decade of work, this is the be-all and end-all source for everything you would ever want to know about the most minute details of Genes life and equipment through his entire career. Brooks gives us a quick refresher biography of Gene and then he jumps into the details of how he put such a great resource together. We pick some key points of interest to spotlight as we talk about his gear a...
The Science and History of Acoustics with Thomas Antoine
January 19, 2021 05:00 - 1 hourThis is a a unique episode that takes a deep dive into the history of acoustics as we know it today dating back to 6000 b.c. Thomas is a French drum builder who makes extremely scientifically progressive and modern drums, but he is also a noise vibration and harshness engineering expert in the automotive industry. All of that combines together for a passion for how acoustics have changed over thousands of years and how it effects drums in 2021. Check out Thomas' drum brand here: www.repurcuss...
The History of the 5000 Pedal with Vincent Ward
January 12, 2021 04:36 - 1 hourThe iconic 5000 pedal dates back to the early 1940's where it was created by the Martin Fleetfoot company, and it has been a staple of the drum world ever since. The 80 year history has many twists and turns until it reaches the modern DW 5000 pedal that we all know and love. Vincent tells us all about each and every era of the pedal including Gretsch, George Way, Camco, Rogers, John Gray, Tama, and DW and many more. The impact that this one pedal design has had on the drum world is unbelieva...
Life, Career and Lessons with Pete Magadini
January 05, 2021 05:00 - 57 minutesPete Magadini is a modern legend as a teacher and clinician who has taught drummers such as Michael Shrieve, Chad Wackerman, Mike Johnston and many more. He is also a very established performer who has worked with artists such as Diana Ross, George Duke, Al Jarreau, and many more. He shares his approachable theory on Polyrhythms and many other great lessons on life and drumming and the story of his career and rise as a top teacher. Here are links for this episode: Petes Website: http://www.p...
The History of Cocktail Drums with John Mettam
December 29, 2020 05:00 - 1 hourCocktail drum kits date back to post World War 2 in an orchestra pit in England where space is at a premium and the drums needed to grow taller, as opposed to wider. the "stand up drum set" evolved from there and became a staple of jazz lounges, street performers, comedy acts and many great drummers who wanted a unique look and feel to the drums they play. John Mettam is the founder of cocktaildrum.com and a longtime performer and cocktail kit enthusiast. He shares the full story of these ico...
Drumming for Charlie Brown with Jerry Granelli
December 22, 2020 05:00 - 56 minutesJerry was the drummer for the iconic "A Charlie Brown Christmas" soundtrack and he shares the story of the writing and recording of the album and great info on the creation of the TV special. He tells us about how he wanted nothing to do with Charlie Brown for 30 years, until he came to the realization that he has made millions of happy people and he should embrace it. We also hear the full story of his illustrious career and his background in drumming. You can learn more about Jerry at his ...
Drum Manufacturing Myths - Europe vs. America with Fritz Steger
December 15, 2020 05:00 - 1 hourWe are lead to believe that the bass drum pedal was invented in the USA, and that the drum set as we know it today was first created in the states - but Fritz shares examples that show many revolutionary drum inventions that were first created in Europe. We also discuss brands like Sonor, Trixon, Paiste, plus drumming and drum building in communist countries and many other great facts and stories along the way. Fritz is a veteran in the drum industry and has owned and operated DrumHouse Freib...
Orion P. Howe - The Medal of Honor Drummer Boy with Marlene Targ Brill
December 08, 2020 05:00 - 49 minutesOrion was a 14 year old drummer boy in the Civil War when he earned the Medal of Honor for an extremely courageous act in battle. Marlene Shares his amazing story that begins when he enters the war at 12 years old through the rest of his life, and the lives of his musical family. We learn all about drummer boys and the role they played in the war, including Johnny Clem - the youngest noncommisioned officer in army history who began as a drummer. Marlene wrote "Diary of a Drummer Boy" which is...
The Story of Peavey Drums with Rob Cook
December 01, 2020 04:25 - 1 hourPeavey Drums were short lived but the Radial Pro series has become a cult classic to many drummers. Rob shares his experience with the first generation of Peavey Drums that was full of problems from the beginning that never got off the ground and the second generation which is the ultra unique Radial Pro's that were short lived but are a part of drum history. This episode is a lesson in the harsh realities of the music business. Rob is an industry veteran of 40 years including running multipl...
The History of Noble & Cooley with Jay and Nick Jones
November 24, 2020 05:00 - 1 hourN&C is the oldest drum company in the US, founded 166 years ago in 1854. The company began at a kitchen table with Silas Noble making Toy Drums for Christmas presents. Once the Civil War broke out, he then partnered with James Cooley to make drums for the Civil War and the company grew massively from there. Jay and Nick Jones are the the 6th and 7th generation to continue on the family business. They carry on the masterful drum building that has existed for almost two centuries, and they also...
A Look at The Curotto Collection with Mike Curotto
November 17, 2020 05:00 - 1 hourMike has 650 rare and valuable snare drums in his San Francisco home! He tells us all about the rarest snares that he owns and how he got into this level of collecting. Mike also shares tips and trick for how to begin your own collection and how to utilize eBay to find great deals on legendary snare drums. Mike is a true legend in the drum community and his collection of snare drums has got to be one of the largest privately owned collections of snare drums in the world. Mike is not buying th...
The History of SJC Drums with Mike Ciprari
November 10, 2020 05:00 - 1 hourMike is the co-founder of SJC and shares the great journey he and the company have been on in its 20 year existence. They erupted on the scene right when boutique drum companies were popping up everywhere, and I think it is safe to say that they came out on top - but it was full of serious ups and downs in the relatively short existence of the company. We hear about the rocky relationship that Mike had with his co-founder brother Scott, who is a true mastermind at drum building and a massive ...
Legendary Teachers: Max Abrams with Neal Wilkinson
November 03, 2020 05:00 - 1 hourMax Abrams was THE drum teacher in England in the mid 1900's and taught Stewart Copeland, Simon Phillips and my guest, Neal Wilkinson. He operated like a drill sergeant and didn't give his students much praise, but it created countless professional drummers. Before he was a teacher, Max was a top drummer around the Jazz and Big Band scene in England in the 30's, 40's, and 50's. Neal Wilkinson is one of the UK's top studio drummers and has worked with artists like Paul McCartney, Van Morrison,...
The History of Mapex with Jeff Mulvihill
October 27, 2020 03:56 - 1 hourMapex was founded in 1989, but its parent company, KHS, goes back 80 years in China and has a very interesting story beginning in after school music programs. Jeff is the brand manager for Mapex and is full of great stories about this relatively young drum brand and goes through the origins of all the iconic lines of drums that Mapex is famous for today. Jeff is the brand manager of both Mapex and Sonor drums and is a working drummer in Nashville, Tennessee. Learn everything about Mapex at ww...
Dealing and Collecting Celebrity Drums with Donn Bennett
October 20, 2020 01:45 - 1 hourDonn Bennett is one of the worlds foremost dealers in celebrity drums that were owned by the top drummers in the world such as Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa, Hal Blaine, Art Blakey, Elvin Jones and MANY more... Donn shares how he got into this unique profession and some stories of acquiring some ultra rare drums. He also tells us how he authenticates these ultra rare drums and what happened when he comes across a counterfeit drum that is being advertised as being owned by Ringo. Check out Donn's col...
Recording Vintage Drums with Dan Bailey
October 13, 2020 03:47 - 1 hourDan Bailey shares his tips and tricks for recording with vintage drums in his studio including favorite drum brands, head choices, mics and recording gear. Dan and I go off the deep end in this episode and completely nerd out about recording and engineering..and it's great! Learn his entire mic and pre-amp choices he uses in his studio. Dan is the drummer and Music Director for Father John Misty, along with recording and performing with many other major artists. You find out everything about ...
The History of Meinl with Norbert Saemann
October 06, 2020 04:00 - 1 hourNorbert takes us through every decade in the history of Meinl and gives a detailed look at the 70 year history of this iconic company. We begin in 1951 when Roland Meinl started out making wind instruments and creating his own cymbals by hand in his home with his wife. He then went head first into distributing Hoshino (Tama) drums in Germany and carried on in that fashion until the company grew into what we know today in a slow and steady rise to the top. Meinl has now grown to be one of the ...
The Role of Percussion Around the World with Colin O'Donohoe
September 29, 2020 04:00 - 1 hourWe discuss how percussion is used in Ireland, Turkey, Iran, Africa, and other various countries in comparison to the downbeat focused western music that dominates pop culture. It is a big eye opener to learn that drummers are often used to support the melody of the music more commonly than providing a head-bobbing back beat that we are used to in American music. Colin O'Donohoe AKA "World Maestro" has had extensive travels and played with musicians across the globe where he has learned the hi...
The History of Vic Firth with Mark Wessels
September 22, 2020 04:00 - 1 hourVic Firth was a prolific timpanist, drum set performer, and educator all before he started his iconic drum stick company that we all know today. This episode starts as a biography of Vic, but then goes through the origins and rise of his company with great stories like how Vic used to have his employees matching sticks by tapping them on a tombstone he got from a friend in his basement. Mark Wessels is a long time employee of Vic Firth and is now the Director of Education at Vic Firth/Zildjia...
The History of Cymbal Making with Nick Margarite (NickyMoon)
September 15, 2020 03:43 - 1 hourNick takes us through an in-depth look at the full history of cymbals, bronze, the iconic brands such as UFIP and Paiste, and all of the processes that are used around the world to create cymbals through time. The episode starts 7000 years ago and works up to the modern revolution of independent cymbal makers like NickyMoon. Nick is a master cymbal maker that has a deep passion for preserving the history of this art form. Not only does he tell us about all the milestones throughout time in Ch...
A Look at Broadway Drummers with Warren Odze
September 08, 2020 03:21 - 1 hourLearn the history of broadway drummers dating back to the days of Vaudeville, up to the modern times where shows are technical marvels that run Ableton, have screens on all the music stands, and the drummer is often playing remotely in a complete different part of the building! Warren Odze is a broadway veteran and has been performing on the stage since the 70's, but his music career has been in full swing for over 50 years. He takes us through the changes that drummers on Broadway have faced...
The History of Pearl Drums with Raymond Massey
September 01, 2020 03:51 - 1 hourWe go back to post World War 2 Japan and learn about the origins of Pearl as a music stand manufacturer in 1946. They then entered the world of drums in the 50's and began to rise to the drum company that we know today by creating "stencil drums" for over 30 other brand names, including CB-700 and Apollo, before creating the iconic Pearl "Presidents Series" in 1966. Raymond Massey is the Director of Product Development and gives us an extensive run through of each decade of this iconic drum b...
Legendary Teachers: Moeller and Chapin with Claus Hessler
August 25, 2020 03:52 - 1 hourClaus teaches us all about the Moeller Technique and its origins with Sanford Moeller, and how he passed the technique along to the legendary Jim Chapin who taught Claus and many famous drummers. This episode is full of great history and stories about how this method of playing was passed down through the generations, and also hear all about Claus's passion for rope tension drums, collapsed rudiments, and a number of other topics! Claus Hessler is an author, performer and educator who had a v...
Living A Ludwig Life with Jim Catalano
August 18, 2020 03:56 - 1 hourJim was the director of marketing at Ludwig for 36 years and was the right hand man to Bill Ludwig II, aka "The Chief". He shares amazing stories about his time he had with the chief, and his four decade career in the drum industry with Ludwig, and also Premier and Slingerland. Jim brought The Chief out of retirement and back into the company after he had sold the company to Selmer, then he had a great rest of his career with Jim by his side. This episode is a great blueprint for how to work...
The History of North Drums with Roger North
August 11, 2020 04:00 - 56 minutesNorth drums are some of the most unique looking drums ever made. They are horn shaped fiberglass drums that were made between the late 60's through the early 90's and were created by my guest, Roger North. Early on, Roger played the first North Drums tom on stage at Woodstock 1969 with his band Quill before he ever actually went into production and created the business. A few years later, he was in full swing and creating drums for Billy Cobham, Alan White, Gerry Brown, Doug Clifford and many...
The Biography of Joe Morello with Steve Fidyk
August 04, 2020 04:00 - 1 hourJoe Morello was one of the most innovative and masterful drummers of the last century, but did you know he was playing Violin with the Boston Symphony at age 9? Learn about how the iconic "Take 5" Drummer made the switch to drums and became the legend we know today. Steve Fidyk is a legendary drummer and educator in his own right, and he was lucky enough to study with Joe and have a very close relationship with him as a student and a friend. Joe began his music life as a virtuosic violinist w...
A Look at The Cymbal Book with Hugo Pinksterboer
July 28, 2020 04:00 - 1 hourLearn the origins of this iconic book that is the most thorough and extensive resource for all things cymbals! Hugo tells us how he gathered all the information for the book and we learn tons of valuable tips and tricks along the way. While writing the book, Hugo was taken all over the world by the major drum companies who wanted to teach him the origins of the companies that we all know and love. That gave him a great understanding of the cymbal making process, the history of the companies, ...