Democracy in Danger artwork

Democracy in Danger

226 episodes - English - Latest episode: 18 days ago -

All over the world, liberal democracy is under threat. Autocrats are taking hold. They’re crushing dissent. Controlling the media. Trampling voting rights. Don’t let them.

Join hosts Will Hitchcock and Siva Vaidhyanathan as they put the illiberal turn in context. Hear leading thinkers discuss serious threats to government by the people: from the dark web and media disinformation, to climate change, economic inequality and violent extremism. Help save the rule of the people — one episode at a time. And make democracy work better.

Listen, subscribe to the show, leave us some stars and tweet us your thoughts @DinDpodcast. New episodes drop every other Wednesday.

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Episodes

No Lone Wolves [Rebroadcast]

January 19, 2021 13:00 - 31 minutes - 71.8 MB

Among the more troubling kinds of iconography embraced by the mob that swarmed the U.S. Capitol earlier this month were symbols of the White Power movement. Historian Kathleen Belew traces an unbroken line from far-right militias operating largely under the radar since the 1980s to this very moment. Give this episode from September another listen.

Tempting Hate [Rebroadcast]

January 12, 2021 13:00 - 32 minutes - 74 MB

Still reeling from last week’s turmoil in Washington? Yeah, same here. We thought it would be a good time to bring you a rebroadcast of last September’s show on violent extremist groups and their recruitment strategies. What draws young people into the toxic universe of far-right groups that pine for a white ethno-state? The temptation to hate often begins with innocent chatter before it’s fed by degrees — and algorithms, says Cynthia Miller-Idriss, a sociologist and education expert who trac...

Insurrection [Special Episode]

January 09, 2021 13:00 - 106 MB

The Confederate flag flew inside the U.S. Capitol this week, a feat not even Robert E. Lee achieved. Egged on by President Trump, a violent mob laid siege to the building, bringing death and mayhem, and temporarily halting the work of Congress to certify Joe Biden’s victory. Siva and Will — together with their University of Virginia students — reflect on what happened. Much as the nation was stunned, these acts were not unprecedented or unpredictable.

Aftermath 2020

November 18, 2020 02:24 - 50 minutes - 117 MB

It’s been a long year: A tiny virus laid us low, protests over racial injustice erupted across the country, climate change loosed record-setting wildfires and hurricanes, and citizens voted in one of the most fraught national elections ever. So what did 2020 reveal about the state of democracy in America and across the world — and what will come in its wake? In this live recording for our season finale, a panel of experts helps Will and Siva break it all down and build it back up. Where do w...

S1 E18. Aftermath 2020

November 18, 2020 02:24 - 50 minutes - 117 MB

It’s been a long year: A tiny virus laid us low, protests over racial injustice erupted across the country, climate change loosed record-setting wildfires and hurricanes, and citizens voted in one of the most fraught national elections ever. So what did 2020 reveal about the state of democracy in America and across the world — and what will come in its wake? In this live recording for our season finale, a panel of experts helps Will and Siva break it all down and build it back up. Where do w...

S1 E18 – Aftermath 2020

November 18, 2020 02:24 - 50 minutes - 117 MB

It’s been a long year: A tiny virus laid us low, protests over racial injustice erupted across the country, climate change loosed record-setting wildfires and hurricanes, and citizens voted in one of the most fraught national elections ever. So what did 2020 reveal about the state of democracy in America and across the world — and what will come in its wake? In this live recording for our season finale, a panel of experts helps Will and Siva break it all down and build it back up. Where do w...

S1E18 - Aftermath 2020

November 18, 2020 02:24 - 50 minutes - 117 MB

It’s been a long year: A tiny virus laid us low, protests over racial injustice erupted across the country, climate change loosed record-setting wildfires and hurricanes, and citizens voted in one of the most fraught national elections ever. So what did 2020 reveal about the state of democracy in America and across the world — and what will come in its wake? In this live recording for our season finale, a panel of experts helps Will and Siva break it all down and build it back up. Where do w...

S1E17 - So Long, Mr. Trump

November 11, 2020 01:00 - 49 minutes - 117 MB

President Trump is calling for recounts and crying voter fraud while the Biden transition team roars to life, laying the groundwork for action on key issues like climate change, the pandemic and economic reignition. But our guests this week say America’s democratic institutions will continue to buckle if political leaders and citizens alike don’t take bold action to strengthen — and alter — them. Join Will and Siva for an election wrap-up and a look ahead with commentators Jamelle Bouie and ...

So Long, Mr. Trump

November 11, 2020 01:00 - 49 minutes - 117 MB

President Trump is calling for recounts and crying voter fraud while the Biden transition team roars to life, laying the groundwork for action on key issues like climate change, the pandemic and economic reignition. But our guests this week say America’s democratic institutions will continue to buckle if political leaders and citizens alike don’t take bold action to strengthen — and alter — them. Join Will and Siva for an election wrap-up and a look ahead with commentators Jamelle Bouie and ...

S1 E17 – So Long, Mr. Trump

November 11, 2020 01:00 - 49 minutes - 117 MB

President Trump is calling for recounts and crying voter fraud while the Biden transition team roars to life, laying the groundwork for action on key issues like climate change, the pandemic and economic reignition. But our guests this week say America’s democratic institutions will continue to buckle if political leaders and citizens alike don’t take bold action to strengthen — and alter — them. Join Will and Siva for an election wrap-up and a look ahead with commentators Jamelle Bouie and ...

S1 E17. So Long, Mr. Trump

November 11, 2020 01:00 - 49 minutes - 117 MB

President Trump is calling for recounts and crying voter fraud while the Biden transition team roars to life, laying the groundwork for action on key issues like climate change, the pandemic and economic reignition. But our guests this week say America’s democratic institutions will continue to buckle if political leaders and citizens alike don’t take bold action to strengthen — and alter — them. Join Will and Siva for an election wrap-up and a look ahead with commentators Jamelle Bouie and ...

S1E16 - Border of Cruelty

November 02, 2020 18:37 - 29 minutes - 73.9 MB

Last month we learned that 545 immigrant children remained stranded in the United States, separated from their families: casualties of the president’s hard-nosed stance on immigration. And yet, despite all the tough talk and draconian policies, Trump’s administration hasn’t deported people as aggressively as his predecessor. So as Americans head to the polls this week, what should they make of this legacy, and what hope is there for a more humane future? Political scientist Elizabeth Cohen h...

Border of Cruelty

November 02, 2020 18:37 - 29 minutes - 73.9 MB

Last month we learned that 545 immigrant children remained stranded in the United States, separated from their families: casualties of the president’s hard-nosed stance on immigration. And yet, despite all the tough talk and draconian policies, Trump’s administration hasn’t deported people as aggressively as his predecessor. So as Americans head to the polls this week, what should they make of this legacy, and what hope is there for a more humane future? Political scientist Elizabeth Cohen h...

S1 E16 – Border of Cruelty

November 02, 2020 18:37 - 29 minutes - 73.9 MB

Last month we learned that 545 immigrant children remained stranded in the United States, separated from their families: casualties of the president’s hard-nosed stance on immigration. And yet, despite all the tough talk and draconian policies, Trump’s administration hasn’t deported people as aggressively as his predecessor. So as Americans head to the polls this week, what should they make of this legacy, and what hope is there for a more humane future? Political scientist Elizabeth Cohen h...

S1 E16. Border of Cruelty

November 02, 2020 18:37 - 29 minutes - 73.9 MB

Last month we learned that 545 immigrant children remained stranded in the United States, separated from their families: casualties of the president’s hard-nosed stance on immigration. And yet, despite all the tough talk and draconian policies, Trump’s administration hasn’t deported people as aggressively as his predecessor. So as Americans head to the polls this week, what should they make of this legacy, and what hope is there for a more humane future? Political scientist Elizabeth Cohen h...

Judicial Review

October 27, 2020 13:04 - 31 minutes - 71.6 MB

Amy Coney Barrett’s appointment to the Supreme Court on the eve of a presidential election has raised questions about Congress’s duty to check the power of the judiciary. Risa Goluboff, dean of the UVA Law School, offers Will and Siva some judicial — and judicious — history, and weighs the future. What will Justice Barrett do to the Supreme Court? How will it change her? And what’s with all the turtles carved into the court’s building? Well, Goluboff says, the pace of justice is slower than ...

S1 E15 – Judicial Review

October 27, 2020 13:04 - 31 minutes - 71.6 MB

Amy Coney Barrett’s appointment to the Supreme Court on the eve of a presidential election has raised questions about Congress’s duty to check the power of the judiciary. Risa Goluboff, dean of the UVA Law School, offers Will and Siva some judicial — and judicious — history, and weighs the future. What will Justice Barrett do to the Supreme Court? How will it change her? And what’s with all the turtles carved into the court’s building? Well, Goluboff says, the pace of justice is slower than ...

S1E15 - Judicial Review

October 27, 2020 13:04 - 31 minutes - 71.6 MB

Amy Coney Barrett’s appointment to the Supreme Court on the eve of a presidential election has raised questions about Congress’s duty to check the power of the judiciary. Risa Goluboff, dean of the UVA Law School, offers Will and Siva some judicial — and judicious — history, and weighs the future. What will Justice Barrett do to the Supreme Court? How will it change her? And what’s with all the turtles carved into the court’s building? Well, Goluboff says, the pace of justice is slower than ...

S1 E15. Judicial Review

October 27, 2020 13:04 - 31 minutes - 71.6 MB

Amy Coney Barrett’s appointment to the Supreme Court on the eve of a presidential election has raised questions about Congress’s duty to check the power of the judiciary. Risa Goluboff, dean of the UVA Law School, offers Will and Siva some judicial — and judicious — history, and weighs the future. What will Justice Barrett do to the Supreme Court? How will it change her? And what’s with all the turtles carved into the court’s building? Well, Goluboff says, the pace of justice is slower than ...

S1 E14. Culture of Himpathy

October 20, 2020 20:17 - 34 minutes - 79.2 MB

Kate Manne argues that contempt for women is not a bug but a feature of Donald Trump’s politics. She says this helps explain why “masculine” issues — like the military, gun rights, law enforcement and border security — have drowned out health care, education, climate change and food protection. Manne, a philosopher at Cornell, also tells Will and Siva how such misogyny is refracted in the “himpathy” afforded to male perpetrators of sexual violence, and internalized not only by men but many w...

S1 E14 – Culture of Himpathy

October 20, 2020 20:17 - 34 minutes - 79.2 MB

Kate Manne argues that contempt for women is not a bug but a feature of Donald Trump’s politics. She says this helps explain why “masculine” issues — like the military, gun rights, law enforcement and border security — have drowned out health care, education, climate change and food protection. Manne, a philosopher at Cornell, also tells Will and Siva how such misogyny is refracted in the “himpathy” afforded to male perpetrators of sexual violence, and internalized not only by men but many w...

S1E14 - Culture of Himpathy

October 20, 2020 20:17 - 34 minutes - 79.2 MB

Kate Manne argues that contempt for women is not a bug but a feature of Donald Trump’s politics. She says this helps explain why “masculine” issues — like the military, gun rights, law enforcement and border security — have drowned out health care, education, climate change and food protection. Manne, a philosopher at Cornell, also tells Will and Siva how such misogyny is refracted in the “himpathy” afforded to male perpetrators of sexual violence, and internalized not only by men but many w...

Culture of Himpathy

October 20, 2020 20:17 - 34 minutes - 79.2 MB

Kate Manne argues that contempt for women is not a bug but a feature of Donald Trump’s politics. She says this helps explain why “masculine” issues — like the military, gun rights, law enforcement and border security — have drowned out health care, education, climate change and food protection. Manne, a philosopher at Cornell, also tells Will and Siva how such misogyny is refracted in the “himpathy” afforded to male perpetrators of sexual violence, and internalized not only by men but many w...

S1 E13 – The ‘F’ Word

October 14, 2020 12:56 - 32 minutes - 73.6 MB

Fascism. We know what that looked like in 20th-century Germany and Italy: dictatorship, genocide, war. But can a creeping enthusiasm for authoritarianism in the 21st century — in democracies like India, Hungary and even the United States — be called “fascist”? Yale philosopher Jason Stanley thinks so. Not only that, he tells Siva and Will, but democracies are especially susceptible to fascism. Find out why.

S1 E13. The ‘F’ Word

October 14, 2020 12:56 - 32 minutes - 73.6 MB

Fascism. We know what that looked like in 20th-century Germany and Italy: dictatorship, genocide, war. But can a creeping enthusiasm for authoritarianism in the 21st century — in democracies like India, Hungary and even the United States — be called “fascist”? Yale philosopher Jason Stanley thinks so. Not only that, he tells Siva and Will, but democracies are especially susceptible to fascism. Find out why.

The ‘F’ Word

October 14, 2020 12:56 - 32 minutes - 73.6 MB

Fascism. We know what that looked like in 20th-century Germany and Italy: dictatorship, genocide, war. But can a creeping enthusiasm for authoritarianism in the 21st century — in democracies like India, Hungary and even the United States — be called “fascist”? Yale philosopher Jason Stanley thinks so. Not only that, he tells Siva and Will, but democracies are especially susceptible to fascism. Find out why.

S1E13 - The ‘F’ Word

October 14, 2020 12:56 - 32 minutes - 73.6 MB

Fascism. We know what that looked like in 20th-century Germany and Italy: dictatorship, genocide, war. But can a creeping enthusiasm for authoritarianism in the 21st century — in democracies like India, Hungary and even the United States — be called “fascist”? Yale philosopher Jason Stanley thinks so. Not only that, he tells Siva and Will, but democracies are especially susceptible to fascism. Find out why.

S1E12 - Trump Speak

October 07, 2020 15:39 - 36 minutes - 83.6 MB

In less than a week, Donald Trump told Americans not to let coronavirus “dominate” them, spread falsehoods about the flu, and told a violent hate group to “stand back and stand by.” These are just the sort of statements that make him a demagogue, says Texas A&M rhetorician Jennifer Mercieca. This time, Mercieca helps Will and Siva make sense of the president’s penchant for inflammatory language. How has it overshadowed the public sphere for five years, and what does it say about the state of...

Trump Speak

October 07, 2020 15:39 - 36 minutes - 83.6 MB

In less than a week, Donald Trump told Americans not to let coronavirus “dominate” them, spread falsehoods about the flu, and told a violent hate group to “stand back and stand by.” These are just the sort of statements that make him a demagogue, says Texas A&M rhetorician Jennifer Mercieca. This time, Mercieca helps Will and Siva make sense of the president’s penchant for inflammatory language. How has it overshadowed the public sphere for five years, and what does it say about the state of...

S1 E12 – Trump Speak

October 07, 2020 15:39 - 36 minutes - 83.6 MB

In less than a week, Donald Trump told Americans not to let coronavirus “dominate” them, spread falsehoods about the flu, and told a violent hate group to “stand back and stand by.” These are just the sort of statements that make him a demagogue, says Texas A&M rhetorician Jennifer Mercieca. This time, Mercieca helps Will and Siva make sense of the president’s penchant for inflammatory language. How has it overshadowed the public sphere for five years, and what does it say about the state of...

S1 E12. Trump Speak

October 07, 2020 15:39 - 36 minutes - 83.6 MB

In less than a week, Donald Trump told Americans not to let coronavirus “dominate” them, spread falsehoods about the flu, and told a violent hate group to “stand back and stand by.” These are just the sort of statements that make him a demagogue, says Texas A&M rhetorician Jennifer Mercieca. This time, Mercieca helps Will and Siva make sense of the president’s penchant for inflammatory language. How has it overshadowed the public sphere for five years, and what does it say about the state of...

S1 E11 – Big Bad Data

September 29, 2020 22:19 - 30 minutes - 70.2 MB

When Phil Howard lived in Budapest, he watched as Hungary’s fledgling democracy was polluted with polarizing stories spread online. It’s a phenomenon now threatening political discourse everywhere, and recent tweaks meant to improve social media policies and algorithms, he says, amount to “a drop in the bucket.” But find out why Howard, a professor of internet studies at Oxford University, thinks we need more social media, not less; and how machine learning and big data might be democratized...

S1 E11. Big Bad Data

September 29, 2020 22:19 - 30 minutes - 70.2 MB

When Phil Howard lived in Budapest, he watched as Hungary’s fledgling democracy was polluted with polarizing stories spread online. It’s a phenomenon now threatening political discourse everywhere, and recent tweaks meant to improve social media policies and algorithms, he says, amount to “a drop in the bucket.” But find out why Howard, a professor of internet studies at Oxford University, thinks we need more social media, not less; and how machine learning and big data might be democratized...

S1E11 - Big Bad Data

September 29, 2020 22:19 - 30 minutes - 70.2 MB

When Phil Howard lived in Budapest, he watched as Hungary’s fledgling democracy was polluted with polarizing stories spread online. It’s a phenomenon now threatening political discourse everywhere, and recent tweaks meant to improve social media policies and algorithms, he says, amount to “a drop in the bucket.” But find out why Howard, a professor of internet studies at Oxford University, thinks we need more social media, not less; and how machine learning and big data might be democratized...

Big Bad Data

September 29, 2020 22:19 - 30 minutes - 70.2 MB

When Phil Howard lived in Budapest, he watched as Hungary’s fledgling democracy was polluted with polarizing stories spread online. It’s a phenomenon now threatening political discourse everywhere, and recent tweaks meant to improve social media policies and algorithms, he says, amount to “a drop in the bucket.” But find out why Howard, a professor of internet studies at Oxford University, thinks we need more social media, not less; and how machine learning and big data might be democratized...

S1E10 - Voting Blocked

September 22, 2020 16:48 - 30 minutes - 69.3 MB

In 1890, Mississippi adopted a new constitution that offered a blueprint for Jim Crow. It all but banned African Americans from voting, erecting a charade of roadblocks: poll taxes, literacy tests and other targeted assaults on the franchise. As historian Carol Anderson explains, such laws blocked Black citizens from polling booths for decades. And today, she says — as the core safeguards of the Voting Rights Act unravel — Americans keep risking their lives to protect the kernel of democracy...

S1 E10. Voting Blocked

September 22, 2020 16:48 - 30 minutes - 69.3 MB

In 1890, Mississippi adopted a new constitution that offered a blueprint for Jim Crow. It all but banned African Americans from voting, erecting a charade of roadblocks: poll taxes, literacy tests and other targeted assaults on the franchise. As historian Carol Anderson explains, such laws blocked Black citizens from polling booths for decades. And today, she says — as the core safeguards of the Voting Rights Act unravel — Americans keep risking their lives to protect the kernel of democracy...

Voting Blocked

September 22, 2020 16:48 - 30 minutes - 69.3 MB

In 1890, Mississippi adopted a new constitution that offered a blueprint for Jim Crow. It all but banned African Americans from voting, erecting a charade of roadblocks: poll taxes, literacy tests and other targeted assaults on the franchise. As historian Carol Anderson explains, such laws blocked Black citizens from polling booths for decades. And today, she says — as the core safeguards of the Voting Rights Act unravel — Americans keep risking their lives to protect the kernel of democracy...

S1 E10 – Voting Blocked

September 22, 2020 16:48 - 30 minutes - 69.3 MB

In 1890, Mississippi adopted a new constitution that offered a blueprint for Jim Crow. It all but banned African Americans from voting, erecting a charade of roadblocks: poll taxes, literacy tests and other targeted assaults on the franchise. As historian Carol Anderson explains, such laws blocked Black citizens from polling booths for decades. And today, she says — as the core safeguards of the Voting Rights Act unravel — Americans keep risking their lives to protect the kernel of democracy...

No Lone Wolves

September 16, 2020 00:02 - 30 minutes - 74.2 MB

Charleston. Tree of Life. Christchurch. All these deadly attacks have some grim details in common — their death tolls were massive... white-power ideology fueled their architects... and they only seemed to be the work of loners, according to historian Kathleen Belew. Join Will and Siva as Belew traces the unsettling history of anti-government militias since the 1980s. Often misunderstood in this story, she says, is the deadliest act of domestic terrorism on record in America: the Oklahoma Ci...

S1E9 - No Lone Wolves

September 16, 2020 00:02 - 30 minutes - 74.2 MB

Charleston. Tree of Life. Christchurch. All these deadly attacks have some grim details in common — their death tolls were massive... white-power ideology fueled their architects... and they only seemed to be the work of loners, according to historian Kathleen Belew. Join Will and Siva as Belew traces the unsettling history of anti-government militias since the 1980s. Often misunderstood in this story, she says, is the deadliest act of domestic terrorism on record in America: the Oklahoma Ci...

S1 E9. No Lone Wolves

September 16, 2020 00:02 - 30 minutes - 74.2 MB

Charleston. Tree of Life. Christchurch. All these deadly attacks have some grim details in common — their death tolls were massive... white-power ideology fueled their architects... and they only seemed to be the work of loners, according to historian Kathleen Belew. Join Will and Siva as Belew traces the unsettling history of anti-government militias since the 1980s. Often misunderstood in this story, she says, is the deadliest act of domestic terrorism on record in America: the Oklahoma Ci...

S1 E9 – No Lone Wolves

September 16, 2020 00:02 - 30 minutes - 74.2 MB

Charleston. Tree of Life. Christchurch. All these deadly attacks have some grim details in common — their death tolls were massive... white-power ideology fueled their architects... and they only seemed to be the work of loners, according to historian Kathleen Belew. Join Will and Siva as Belew traces the unsettling history of anti-government militias since the 1980s. Often misunderstood in this story, she says, is the deadliest act of domestic terrorism on record in America: the Oklahoma Ci...

S1 E8 – Tempting Hate

September 10, 2020 21:04 - 31 minutes - 72.6 MB

What draws young people into the universe of toxic far-right groups that pine for a White ethno-state? The temptation to hate often begins with innocent chatter before it’s fed by degrees — and algorithms, says Cynthia Miller-Idriss, a sociologist and education expert who tracks such groups. They work through a mix of alluring aesthetics, direct appeals in social media and online gaming, even in old-fashioned flyers on college campuses. But, Miller-Idriss has found, the path to extremism can...

S1 E8. Tempting Hate

September 10, 2020 21:04 - 31 minutes - 72.6 MB

What draws young people into the universe of toxic far-right groups that pine for a White ethno-state? The temptation to hate often begins with innocent chatter before it’s fed by degrees — and algorithms, says Cynthia Miller-Idriss, a sociologist and education expert who tracks such groups. They work through a mix of alluring aesthetics, direct appeals in social media and online gaming, even in old-fashioned flyers on college campuses. But, Miller-Idriss has found, the path to extremism can...

S1E8 - Tempting Hate

September 10, 2020 21:04 - 31 minutes - 72.6 MB

What draws young people into the universe of toxic far-right groups that pine for a White ethno-state? The temptation to hate often begins with innocent chatter before it’s fed by degrees — and algorithms, says Cynthia Miller-Idriss, a sociologist and education expert who tracks such groups. They work through a mix of alluring aesthetics, direct appeals in social media and online gaming, even in old-fashioned flyers on college campuses. But, Miller-Idriss has found, the path to extremism can...

Tempting Hate

September 10, 2020 21:04 - 31 minutes - 72.6 MB

What draws young people into the universe of toxic far-right groups that pine for a White ethno-state? The temptation to hate often begins with innocent chatter before it’s fed by degrees — and algorithms, says Cynthia Miller-Idriss, a sociologist and education expert who tracks such groups. They work through a mix of alluring aesthetics, direct appeals in social media and online gaming, even in old-fashioned flyers on college campuses. But, Miller-Idriss has found, the path to extremism can...

S1 E7. Disinformation Wars

September 01, 2020 19:32 - 31 minutes - 71.9 MB

Internet giants like Facebook, Google and Twitter aren’t just part of the disinformation problem — they are the problem, according to author Nina Jankowicz. Her new book, “How to Lose the Information War,” details Russia’s efforts to meddle in the affairs of other countries by turning the tools of free speech against democracy itself. In this interview, Jankowicz makes clear the stakes are high, but the solutions — regulation and education — are within our grasp. Join Will and Siva as they ...

Disinformation Wars

September 01, 2020 19:32 - 31 minutes - 71.9 MB

Internet giants like Facebook, Google and Twitter aren’t just part of the disinformation problem — they are the problem, according to author Nina Jankowicz. Her new book, “How to Lose the Information War,” details Russia’s efforts to meddle in the affairs of other countries by turning the tools of free speech against democracy itself. In this interview, Jankowicz makes clear the stakes are high, but the solutions — regulation and education — are within our grasp. Join Will and Siva as they...

S1 E7 – Disinformation Wars

September 01, 2020 19:32 - 31 minutes - 71.9 MB

Internet giants like Facebook, Google and Twitter aren’t just part of the disinformation problem — they are the problem, according to author Nina Jankowicz. Her new book, “How to Lose the Information War,” details Russia’s efforts to meddle in the affairs of other countries by turning the tools of free speech against democracy itself. In this interview, Jankowicz makes clear the stakes are high, but the solutions — regulation and education — are within our grasp. Join Will and Siva as they ...