Confessions of an ex NYC male sex worker

In our first interview with a male guest, we're pulling out all of the stops. Sebastien is an ex New York City rent boy and long term friend of mine. We’ll go in depth about his ‘job,’ the world of chemsex, his spiral into addiction and his recovery. Tune in to listen to his story now.

CHAPTERS

0:00 Introduction

4:02 How we met

6:25 How did a foreigner find himself at UCLA

7:12 Dry wit disclaimer

9:48 What kind of household did you grow up in?

10:39 Did you have a sense of your sexuality or asexuality when you were a boy?

14:36 What was your relationship like with your parents?

24:52 Childhood trauma and being denied humanity

26:36 The transition from being private to being a sex worker

32:46 Sexual hierarchies

34:36 Must you be a dom or sub in the gay community?

37:30 What is the true nature of someone who flips?

51:35 what is your favorite kind of man to interact with?

1:05:45 Is it difficult for someone who is overweight or unattractive in the gay community

1:07:37 Key sexual differences between men and women

1:10:12 Does sexual consent exist in the gay community

1:20:55 Will you struggle with addiction for the rest of your life or can your be temperate?

1:26:48 Was being a sex worker a full time job?

1:29:46 More key differences between men and women. Novelty and variety.

1:34:52 Are viagra, Trimix, or Cialis addictive?

1:35:51 Once a ho always a ho?

1:36:40 How do you give back to the community?

 Welcome to the closeness podcast, your new sexual education. My name is Tari. I'm your host. And after nearly 60 episodes of closeness today's interview features our first male guest. If you haven't done so already, please take a moment to subscribe to our [email protected]/closeness or anywhere else. Podcasts can be found. Now, are you ready to come closer? Let's get started. Today's interview is with a friend of mine who I've known for nearly 25 years. And what I think you'll find fascinating about his story aside from the juicy details of this title and the cover art is this man's sexual or even non-sexual journey over the years. But before we jump into this story today, I want to use this opportunity to spend a few minutes talking about my background, how I grew up in my story as well. And interestingly, whether we're talking about mostly spiritually, financially, or sexually, we both took such different paths to become the men who we are today. Speaker 0 00:00:55 I think you're going to find both of our stories, fascinating, interesting, and fun to listen to. So let me tie it all together. My friend, Sebastian and I met while completing our undergrad at UCLA, but I want to share a little bit about how I wound up there prior to living in Los Angeles. It was my senior year at UC Santa Barbara, and I had already spent one year living abroad in Venice on top of spending about two years, studying Italian before living abroad. I wasn't ready to graduate because I was having so much fun. So I petitioned the UC system to allow me to extend my college education for one more quarter, while I transferred down to UCLA there, I would take Japanese Italian conversation, modern dance and jazz, and to my luck and surprise, I wound up with Italian roommates as well. This allowed me to keep practicing the language, to be social with Italians and to keep the Italian language at the forefront of my mind. Now I had studied philosophy, ethics, public policy, art history, and Italian in Italian and in Italy, and also had to give my final exams orally in Italian. For those of you who don't know is a very different system there, you don't get an, a, B, C, or D. You get a zero to 30 or three. <inaudible> like 30 and high marks. You get this grade by sitting in front of your teacher's desk and conversing with her, impressing her with your knowledge. And if everything works out the way it should, then you get your high marks. If not, you get lashings with the back of the ruler and her forced to sit in a corner with a dunce cap on your head. No, I'm kidding about that part. So try to imagine speaking to your professor in a foreign language as best you can, while under pressure about philosophy, that's been translated from German into Italian, which I'm translating into English and then back into Italian in my brain all while trying to maintain a calm, collected demeanor. Speaker 0 00:02:40 Well, let's just say it was quite an interaction. Interestingly, once. And for another course, I can recall penning a 60 page paper, which I called multiple entendres or the OPO sense on Italian, which thoroughly chronicled several of my erotic adventures thus far set in Venice, Italy, needless to say, I was able to pull <inaudible> or a pluses on all of my oral and written exams whilst in Italy, humble brag. So fast forward a couple of years, I turned 21 in Venice, Italy, I'm 22 and a senior now about to graduate. And while I'm looking for a place to live at UCLA, I somehow come across two Italian roommates. One of which turns out to be cross-dresser and later came out as being gay and the other was depressed. A good percentage of the time we were there. It was my first experience with someone who took pills for depression. Speaker 0 00:03:28 But for me at that time in my life, it was a pretty golden era. I was set to graduate with high honors, partially due to the great grades I pulled in Italy, but I wasn't ready to leave yet. I was in love with academia in a sense, it felt like a dream because when you're at university, there's almost always pressure to go home and study or to write a paper or to get something done for a class. But because most of my load was movement dance, a language that I already spoke in a curiosity about taking Japanese level one, it was such a special time for me because it didn't require so much energy focused, staying up late for final exams and other hard work. And Sebastian, you might be able to chime in here. My lifestyle was in a dance class, practicing Italian, or working out at the gym. Speaker 1 00:04:11 I do actually remember, well, the data we met, it was at the Jimmy, right? And somehow you spotted me from across the room and you came over directly and introduce yourself. And, um, I feel like I had so much in common with you. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:04:26 Yeah. I felt the same. You didn't have that typical bro. Look, you know, the one where you have to pull your socks up to your knees, you have a goatee that's four inches long and a backwards hat on your head and a size XXL t-shirt you on the other hand felt super approachable for me too. I love the way he dressed. And interestingly enough, in terms of our height, body type and weight, it was almost as if we were twins Speaker 1 00:04:46 Being Italian and gay, I guess, helped too in the fashion department. Speaker 0 00:04:51 Yeah. I mean, can you think of a better combination on the planet for aesthetics? So I think I actually approached you initially because I saw that your legs were bigger than mine. And I wanted a little help in that department that might've been my opener to chat you up. Speaker 1 00:05:04 Uh, flattery, there always is the perfect opener for a conversation. And you did struck a chord, uh, resonated with me. But no, I think, uh, your smile was, uh, was, uh, what struck me and how friendly you were, you know, somebody you haven't met before. And there was, uh, something that resonated a lot Speaker 0 00:05:23 For me. I always liked you as a person, interestingly though, at the same time, even though you and I got along so well, I always felt like you had this impenetrable wall up and it was weird because even though I couldn't get through it, you were still friendly and respectful and cordial and educated. So I adored every time we spent time together and at the same time, I could sense that you weren't letting anybody in. So during our first interaction at the gym, I felt like I had to encourage you a little bit to hang out with me. I think what I did was offer you a ride, is that right? It Speaker 1 00:05:58 Did go like that. And surprisingly, I did accept your offer for a ride home, knowing that possibly I could have ended up in the hands of a, of a rapist or a serial killer. And I guess I took my chance and it paid off. So thank you for not killing me that night. Yeah, yeah, Speaker 0 00:06:12 Yeah. It was more than my pleasure. So we had so many things in common right away, obviously fitness and taking good care of ourselves. He is Italian. And so I learned to speak Italian I'm half Italian, but no one in my family knows how to speak it. I think you must have been in the U S already for a little while. So how did a foreigner like yourself wind up at UCLA? Speaker 1 00:06:32 I had this fantasy about living one day in California, in Los Angeles when I started watching Baywatch in high school and all of those people with no shirts on running day in, day, out on the beach for no reason. And it was always a sunset. Of course the cinematography was incredible. And I remember that day, I thought one day I will be in Los Angeles doing the same thing, running up and down the beach for no reason. And that I was okay. Speaker 0 00:06:57 Okay. So you were inspired to come out to California literally because of Baywatch and you got here, what? On a student visa? Speaker 1 00:07:04 Um, yeah. To start at UCLA. Speaker 0 00:07:06 Yeah. And they give you like five years or something. Speaker 1 00:07:08 They did give me five years. Yeah. That's pretty. Speaker 0 00:07:12 Let me take a moment to mention here. And also at the end of the podcast that my friend Sebastian has an incredibly dry sense of humor. So what that means is, as you're enjoying this episode, if you hear something that's a little off color or politically incorrect, you've got to know that it's done from a place of compassion on both of our parts. And that Sebastian has a really great heart. Nonetheless, almost from the very first day we met each other. Our dynamic together has been consistently the wit the sass, the sarcasm and this amazing playfulness of not being able to tell if either of us are joking or not good times. Good times. Yeah. So immediately we had this connection that I guess was loosely based on fashion, food, aesthetic, perfectionism language, sex, romance culture. Does that sound about right to you? Speaker 1 00:07:59 Yeah, it was incredibly pretentious the way we were interacting with each other, but it was incredibly fun too, because I was able to speak my language with somebody else. And I thought I was the only one left on earth. So I had found my tribe and I felt like there was a friendship there. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:08:17 Something I've always found fascinating about speaking a foreign language or sharing a language in common with a friend of yours is that you get this witty banter that comes out these jokes that you can make from these multi-lingual nuanced comments that are actually hilarious, but it feels like a secret language between the two of us. Speaker 1 00:08:34 I do remember sitting in nice restaurants and speaking our own language, which was a mix of Italian and English and everything in between. Nobody was able to understand what was going on except us. And, uh, again, he made us feel special. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:08:46 How long did we know each other in Santa Monica? It was about a year and we became sort of like gym buddies and friends and weekend, uh, Speaker 1 00:08:56 A little of everything we can spend driving on a convertible to exotic locations, Speaker 0 00:09:01 Malibu, Hollywood Hills, all that. The interesting thing is we both had the sense that we looked up to one another for similar reasons. The two of us haven't spoken at length in possibly a decade. Correct. And so I feel like we both really have a sense of how the other person was during very formative years. Speaker 1 00:09:19 That is correct. I think, uh, we've seen each other grow and change and also how far we've come. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:09:27 So I think something we should jump into right off the bat, because after all this is an intimacy podcast is the story of your sexuality. You have such an unusual story. And I, and I think it has to be told. So let's start by talking about how you grew up the kind of household you lived in the timing of how your sexuality ripened and how that affected you as you got older. If I remember right, you grew up in a very, very strict and religious household, is that right? Speaker 1 00:09:53 A very religious one, indeed. Yeah. Um, a household where being gay was not an option per se, as it was considered like a moral defect, something, nothing the prayer or meditation, or God would wouldn't fix or take away Speaker 0 00:10:08 And to be clear, they felt that homosexuality or your sexuality was a choice. And so therefore this was a flaw that anyone who identified that way needed to fix, Speaker 1 00:10:18 Correct. Yeah. A defect of character that, or living a life of sin that will say, yeah. Speaker 0 00:10:24 And in your religion, it's still like this today. That is correct. Yeah. Was your family heavily involved in the church? Speaker 1 00:10:31 They were, my father was one of the local elders. And so everybody in the family was expected to be exemplary in their behavior. Okay. Speaker 0 00:10:39 For many kids early on, they have this sense that they're either attracted to one gender or another. But when you were younger, did you actually feel any sexual attraction to other boys or girls? Speaker 1 00:10:50 I must've sublimated that at an early age. I do remember being very asexual in elementary school, middle school, high school. Uh, women didn't do much for me as well as boys. So I didn't really know what was my calling in that regard. Speaker 0 00:11:05 So then did you realize that the time that you were in fact a sexual and did it occur to you that you were that way? Speaker 1 00:11:12 Uh, no. Really. Since nobody was explaining that to me or had somebody I could relate to or talk to about these things, because of course, all of my allowed friends who are a part of the church and, uh, anything I said about sex or anything really there was beyond, uh, the aloud was being reported directly to the elders in the church. And it would have gotten into trouble. Yes. Speaker 0 00:11:36 And that was during what age period for you? Speaker 1 00:11:38 From elementary to middle school? I do remember days in middle school when I was bullied all day long and be called gay and fag names like that. And I would come home and not be able to relay any of that information to anyone, because again, it wasn't a problem. Right. Gay doesn't exist. And if people make fun of you, you have to be above that. Speaker 0 00:11:59 I went through a lot of this myself. So did you understand at the time what they meant by those names or what they were intimating? Speaker 1 00:12:06 I must have internalized homophobia at a very early age because I didn't identify with being gay or the names they were calling me. They were yelling at me this name and I thought, I don't want to be that. I didn't even know what gay meant. I just knew I wanted to have no part in it. Right. Speaker 0 00:12:23 Because of how hostile they seemed. Speaker 1 00:12:27 Yeah. It seemed like being gay was not a very popular choice in high school. And I think I chose the path of least resistance. Speaker 0 00:12:36 Yeah. Yeah. I had a very similar experience to you and I probably was being made fun of at the exact same time on the other side of the planet, just nine hours earlier for being gay. And I remember kids calling me fag all the time and I was telling you the same thing earlier. I had no idea what it meant, but all I knew was I better not be that because the way they snapped it at you made it sound like it was something atrocious. But then when I actually found out what homosexuality is, what gay meant, what the word fag was implying. I remember thinking, why are they yelling this at me? And why are they so angry about it? It made no sense to me. Why is someone caring about in fifth or sixth grade? Like whether a guy likes a guy or whether he likes a girl. So I can totally relate because it had the same confusing effect for me all the way through high school and not even being confused about my own sexuality in my case, but being confused about what the hatred and anger was about. Speaker 1 00:13:27 Yeah. I can just imagine how a child must go through being bullied for something they are or where they come from. And it's just not right. Because at that point, the child has no protection or defenses I can stand. Speaker 0 00:13:40 Right. So do you feel then that you were from very early on walled up or did you have a sense that you were either shy or timid or closed off or maybe a little defensive? Speaker 1 00:13:51 Yeah, I must have started around six year olds when I started school. I realized that a lot of the things that I was told in the household were not true, such as, uh, about God and religion and what you're supposed to do and not, and how everybody outside of that particular religion, they're from the devil and the bad and the dangerous. And then the first day of school, I saw them and I said, Oh, these are nice people. They're just like me. If anything, they have a cakes for whenever they have a birthday and a presence and they seem to have fun. So I knew something was wrong. And I was smart enough to pick up the bullshit that I had been fed day after day since they was seen in the womb since in the womb of my mother, probably three times a week. Speaker 0 00:14:35 Yeah. And twice on Sunday. Is that okay to ask about your relationship with your parents and how you get along with them now? Speaker 1 00:14:42 Very loving and caring people really back then, I guess they did what they thought was best for me in my own interest. So I can't really blame them for trying, or Speaker 0 00:14:52 You do talk to them much now or Speaker 1 00:14:54 Now. And then, uh, we have a bit of a former relationship, but we talk and we share and it's all good. Speaker 0 00:15:02 Okay. So that gets us through childhood and middle school. When it came to high school, were there any changes and then bring us around to where we met in Los Angeles. Speaker 1 00:15:12 So I arrived to Los Angeles full of expectations because of course my ideal, you know, of how people live in LA or in the U S for that matter was an episode of Beverly Hills nine zero two, you know, whatever, or one of those silly, you know, I think the reality was that I really liked living in Los Angeles and the, the, the college experience. And, uh, I decided back then that this is where I want to live. I don't care for being back in Europe for that matter. So there was a long term commitment that I realized a few years later. Okay. Speaker 0 00:15:45 Okay. But what was calling you out to the U S was distinctly not sexual you, weren't trying to go meet someone you weren't hoping to meet other men and women out there. This was something other, it was something different like sunsets or the idea of happiness that was packaged a little bit differently for you. Speaker 1 00:16:03 Uh, I laugh now, but back in college, I still had no idea what my sexuality was or was supposed to be or how I could have expressed it. So there was completely unknown asexuality of some form. Right. Speaker 0 00:16:15 Yeah. I want to ask you about that a little bit more. So your sexuality was totally unknown. Did you actually know that it was unknown for instance, did you just think to yourself back then you were undecided and you didn't know what you wanted or was the idea of attraction to any other human being just completely out of your hemisphere. And were you aware that sexuality existed or were you just oblivious to it? All? Speaker 1 00:16:37 I now realize that censorship and, uh, uh, the unconscious is an incredibly powerful section of your mind when things don't disappear, they're just not accessible. And clearly there was a lot of many things that hadn't processed, but it was still there down there in a frozen dark place. Speaker 0 00:16:57 Hmm. You've jokingly said before that, when I approached you, you felt safe with me, but you've always had this concern that someone was hitting on you or that they wanted to take something from you. So it sounds like you did have awareness of something, some form of sexuality. Speaker 1 00:17:14 I believe there might've been too, uh, my mistrust of people in general, especially adults since an early age, I realized that not everything the adults say is the truth. Yeah. They're not to be trusted to trust my own instincts in what I believe was the truth. I guess I wasn't giving trust to people until I felt safe at some point. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:17:37 Yeah. So it sounds like until you're in your twenties, sexuality had no bearing on you whatsoever. It didn't play on you. It didn't affect you. You weren't really repressed by it. It just kind of didn't exist for you. Does that sound about right? Yeah, Speaker 1 00:17:50 I didn't resonate much. And I thought it was just in the way of getting things done, like friends and travel relationships. And I would engage with girls and boys interchangeably. I would remove the sexual component as a way to make it safe and neutral for what I was able to, uh, bear back then. Okay. Speaker 0 00:18:10 Yeah. You mentioned earlier to me that you didn't have a ton of validation from girls or boys telling you you're so pretty, you're so handsome or so beautiful or what a beautiful figure or a body that it came more in the form of being book smart or intelligent or eloquent. I want to ask you then when you were in college and you came to UCLA, did you have, did you not have American guys or girls overtly hitting on you? Because sometimes when guys are the most oblivious, I E are also gay women have no problem throwing themselves at you or suggesting you go home together. Did you ever experience anything like that Speaker 1 00:18:45 Is, is exactly what happened? I would start seeing girls approaching and engaging and asking now to go have a date or a drink. And, uh, for me it was all new, but exciting and enticing because now somebody is paying attention to your attention. Yeah. You see, when I was a, a child, I do remember I was, uh, taking space, you know, at the dining table or in the car, but I don't remember. I met her. I don't remember people engage with me a in a way that made me feel like I mattered. So suddenly I'm here in Los Angeles and there's people that noticing and paying attention and they're engaging. And that was all new to me. But at the same time, it was very exciting. Speaker 0 00:19:28 I'm sorry to hear that beginning part. Did you have a sense before that you didn't matter? Speaker 1 00:19:32 Um, like most things that were uncomfortable, they were relegating a side of my brain where they wouldn't hurt or would just disrupt. So come on. Speaker 0 00:19:43 So it occurred to you when you started getting attention from women that suddenly I am a sexual being. Right. Speaker 1 00:19:50 And it was a revelation. Did Speaker 0 00:19:52 You have your first sexual experiences around the time that I knew you? Uh, I did not. So what would happen if you went out with these girls or they talk to you or they leaned it like, Speaker 1 00:20:01 Uh, by the time they'll put the hand on my pants, I would call it a night and said I had a headache or something or an exam the next day and just go home. Speaker 0 00:20:10 Were you scared or nervous about anything? Oh, it wasn't Speaker 1 00:20:13 Scared is just that I didn't care for that at Speaker 0 00:20:16 All. What was it that you didn't like about it? Speaker 1 00:20:18 Um, it was something that I never experienced before and I needed time to process and, you know, and a college, half drunk girl, maybe it'd be too aggressive. Speaker 0 00:20:28 Right. Would you say that these experiences, they were just a couple or numerous, numerous, you suddenly, finally felt like you were getting attention from women Speaker 1 00:20:38 And man, like I remember the leering and the looks and it was equally enticing and flattering to be from both sides. Guys Speaker 0 00:20:48 Tend to be a lot more overt and obvious when it comes to staring. I don't imagine it was much different back then, but were men more aggressive with you? Speaker 1 00:20:57 I may be. I may have given a vibe that I wasn't interested in in, you know, that, uh, and I made clear, I said that from the very beginning, so that would have scared off a few people. Uh, but of course there's always some cases that have been more adventurous and like to pursue. And, uh, they made the extra effort to become my friends and they were lovely and incredible friends and I still I'm in contact with them. So beautiful. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:21:24 When do you think you knew about sexuality? Speaker 1 00:21:27 Sexuality? When I was a, probably four year old and a stumbling to, uh, a science book anatomy. Okay. So I knew all of that. I just didn't feel the emotional connection to it. Right. Speaker 0 00:21:39 When did this change, what was the pivotal moment or story that changed everything for you? Speaker 1 00:21:46 Uh, one day Miami on the beach and I was seeing all these boys walking up and down the beach, and I would notice that I was paying much more attention to them than to the girl I was dating. And then that same day I told her that I know I am gay and there was the end of the relationship. Speaker 0 00:22:04 Gosh. Okay. Well back it up a little bit. How did you start dating this girl and was their sexuality there? Speaker 1 00:22:09 There was, it was good. Um, it was an incredible experience. She was, he's a very sweet girl. And I think we had a lot of, uh, wounds that at some point were the same. So we saw a lot of each other in the relationship. How old are you? Must've been 23. Speaker 0 00:22:31 Oh, so this was around the time we knew each other. Yeah. How long then were you together with this first a new girlfriend? Speaker 1 00:22:38 About 10 years. Wow. So really grouped together in a sense. And we became more than just a lovers and friends. We became also, we had a business together. We were working, we were really helping and supporting each other, but at some point too, we became more like, um, brothers where the sexual part is not as relevant. Speaker 0 00:23:02 You met at 23 were together until you were about 33. And in the beginning you were sexual, you were sleeping together. Speaker 1 00:23:09 That is correct. Yes. Was she your first? She was my first. Speaker 0 00:23:14 So the catalyst that actually helped you realize you were gay was kind of this singular event, noticing these men on the beach, noticing that you were having a physical response or an attraction to them, but prior to this, for the better part of 10 years, you were in an actual full-fledged relationship with a woman, Speaker 1 00:23:31 You know what they say? You start desiring what you see. Right. And I'm seeing all these beautiful boys. I understood that the moment that that's what I wanted, this where I belonged, I felt like it was my obligation to a relationship with my girlfriend. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:23:48 So you were with a woman for most 10 years, and it wasn't until you were in your early thirties that you actually knew, which is just really unbelievable. I mean, if you try to imagine for anybody who's listening, coming to terms with your sexuality or knowing what you like, not when you're not a lesson, not in your teens, not in your twenties, but in your actual thirties before it happens. It's incredible. Speaker 1 00:24:10 That is correct. Yes. And they came to me in one day and, uh, the same day I took action to tell her, and also at the same time, there's a lot of, uh, guilt and shame that comes to it because you feel like it's your fault for being gay, right? Like you didn't talk to him a child because now I'm making another person uncomfortable and miserable. And I feel like it's my responsibility. That what was going on in my mind, like then now I know better. I was very, very lucky to be with a person who not only, she was a very sweet one, but also incredibly understanding of the issue. And we were able to be friends down to this day. Speaker 0 00:24:52 Right. Very good. The reason I've wanted to take a considerable amount of time to explore your early life with you is because you then went on to live such an extraordinary, unusual, unbelievable mind-bending life afterwards. And I think the contrast is very interesting and we don't often get to hear this kind of a story. We know that many people who identify as gay or straight for that matter, know this very early on in life. We also know that people know early on that they might be gay, but they've kept it secret. Then they get married and then they can't handle it anymore. And they reveal it to their partner and make a lifestyle change then. But for you where most of your adult life sexuality just wasn't even on the table or it was repressed, or you had no sense of what you wanted until you were in your early thirties, that's both tragic and unusual. And of course, very fascinating. Speaker 1 00:25:48 I believe it's my understanding that the trauma, when I was six, seven was so big that I decided my psyche decided to split and just very a side of me in a place where I had no access and just not have to deal with it. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:26:03 Yeah. And that's such a horrific part about being a human is that if you happen to be unlucky enough, to have trauma, and we all do that, we don't process it correctly. We don't have the tools or resources to handle it. And so it just goes somewhere else to either play itself out in a really ugly way later, or we do the work and we try to process it the best way we can. Speaker 1 00:26:24 I was denied my humanity, the ability to be myself as I was in it. So all the facts and, uh, other characters Speaker 0 00:26:35 You were, let's try to bridge the gap now between this person who you were and getting into sex, work, you from being a very private and secluded person who didn't share a lot about your emotions and how you feel Speaker 1 00:26:50 To being sort of the opposite where I had no boundaries. All of a sudden I was started as a temporary job to get some extra cash turned out, to be an incredible experience that told me so much about myself. I learned how to be comfortable in my own skin, how to live my sexuality as it was, because I was surrounded by people that were applaud in that instead of frown upon any deviation of what's supposed to be the standard of human sexuality, Speaker 0 00:27:19 What type of work exactly did you get into then? And how did you go from bringing a 10 year relationship with a woman to a close to exploring this unbridled side of sex work? Did someone else turn you onto it? Did you stumble into it? Did you try to seek it out? How did you decide that you even wanted to make money doing it? Speaker 1 00:27:40 He started as an easy way to make money in a city like New York when, uh, it's notoriously hard to make it later on and realize that it was something I actually liked. I liked to engage it with people. I liked the intimacy, the physical contact, the relationship that you have with people that are just looking for a human warmth and companionship, and yes, even sexuality, people that are in the same position as you are, they have wounds and they have a horrible past and through it, all they find in the sexual act, a form of a being themselves and a peace and nobody's judging them. Speaker 0 00:28:24 So how did you set yourself up for some sort of exchange or compensation? In other words, it's one thing to pick a guy off the street and bed him, but it's another to make it an exchange. Um, Speaker 1 00:28:36 I was bougie already back then. I didn't go on the street. They would reach out to me. And since early on, I had a very specific screening system to see who was calling. And then I would ask specific questions to see how they would match what I had in mind. So if I felt like it was too much work and not enough money, or if it was going to be trouble or danger, then I had a way to screen that when I decided to take on a client, I made a background checks. I would do that on the name, phone number, see if they matched or not. So I knew who I was meeting before I even showed up at the door and maybe it was a CEO, maybe it was a big company. Um, um, somebody worked in finance, old people that have normal jobs like we do. There were no weird people. They were not perverts. They were regular people. And, uh, there was a comfort to be able to interact with these amazing people in a, in a human level that maybe they haven't done it with somebody, uh, ever before in their life. Speaker 0 00:29:43 And how did you make yourself, uh, find-able for these escort type services Speaker 1 00:29:48 Through carefully placed ads online. Okay. But then soon enough, I discovered that there was this thing called regulars, which is people that like you so much, that they want you to come back and spend time with you. And very often it wasn't even sexual. It was about companionship. And it was about being in the presence of another man and feel the human touch and talk about life and whatever was going on in their lives. Speaker 0 00:30:16 I think you said you wouldn't wind up dead in public with the clients. So Speaker 1 00:30:19 If they wanted dinner had to be in a hotel in the room, et cetera. Speaker 0 00:30:23 And where did this rule of not being seen in public? Come from? Speaker 1 00:30:28 I made my rules is I, you know, she went on of course and, uh, I guess, uh, learn by mistakes, what was working and what wasn't. And I realized they know good screening and, uh, being direct and honest and, uh, appeal more to the human level. Instead of just to the raw sexuality. It's a winning approach, Speaker 0 00:30:50 Safe to say, you've had a considerable amount of sexual experience over your life, which I think makes you the perfect person to talk to about how to actually turn a man on, which I think will be very interesting to both our male and female listeners. Would you care to illuminate us? Speaker 1 00:31:05 Well, normally we find that remark very offensive if I wasn't the whole actually. So, so you will say yes. Speaker 0 00:31:11 Okay. Maybe we can start with finding out if you have a certain technique that you use to read your partner or know what they're going to like or want from you when they meet, you Speaker 1 00:31:21 See the misconception about men and sexuality is that they want to be dominant on top and controlling and have everything under control, including the position they place. And when to start, when to finish, the reality is that are a lot of them want to just sit and relax and have a good time and have somebody else take care of them. Like any woman knows how to that's right. That's right. Speaker 0 00:31:47 Yeah. I think most people desire this opportunity to relax and have someone take care of them, especially people who are in high powered positions work a stressful job, or need to tell a lot of people what to do, regardless of whether you're a man or woman. I often see people do not want to have to think or make decisions. And then it plays itself out of course, with different levels of intensity, whether it's bondage and BDSM, or just having their partners seducing and loving them. Speaker 1 00:32:12 I came to understand that the more responsibility and stress and yelling that had to do throughout the week, or how many people that to fire that week, the more they become calm and relaxed and very sweet. And they just want to not be in control of much and we're back. So you sound good on the mic. Thank you, Tony. When I hear the feedback on my voice, I like it, right? Yeah. I like it too. Does it give you a sense of power to be able to your lights with your voice? No. Speaker 0 00:32:41 I just enjoy that set studio to 100. Speaker 1 00:32:43 You seem to enjoy doing that very much. It pleases me. We were talking about how to please a man and how the heterosexual stereotype. Sometimes doesn't apply to the gay model where it's a bit more flexible on one hand and on the other is incredibly strict. There's a hierarchy in the male gay community. There not many people know about, Speaker 0 00:33:06 Which is exactly why I am so happy. You're here. Can you define for us what this hierarchy is and what this sexual model is so that our listeners have a good idea of what you mean? Speaker 1 00:33:17 I have a feeling that we enjoyed that, um, it's the common knowledge that the man has to be. The one that takes the initiative in asking out the girl and picking the place and pay for the dinner and all of that, which sounds like a lot of unnecessary work, but I'm not here to judge. I'm just saying the expectation is the one that demand has to be the one that's assertive taken initiative and, uh, so on and so forth. Even in the bedroom, whereas four, a two men interacting in a sexual way. It's much easier. It's just about reading the other person's, uh, body, I guess, and see how they react and just go with it. And, uh, the two people can interchange the dominant position and change. We will call the flipping. Speaker 0 00:34:09 So used correctly, that's he flips? Speaker 1 00:34:12 Correct. Okay. Or I'm a bottom, but I can flip. And, um, even though they never want to flip, I'm giving our secrets body. Shouldn't the bottles never want to flip. They never want to flip people when they say the averse and they don't mind flipping they're aligned to your face in the same as a girl would say, Oh yeah, sure. I would like to go with you or your parents, whatever wedding this weekend Speaker 0 00:34:35 In the gay community. Is it mandatory to either be dominant or submissive? Speaker 1 00:34:39 It's just like absolutely necessary. If you want to have a social life, see gay people are structured in a very rigid hierarchy where you have the alpha males on top, and then you have the beta ones pretty much like a pack of dogs. And within that, as a sub cultures, you have the bears, the Twinkies, and then you have the leather and the fetish and the perverts and the pigs. And then you have the others. And the, I can think of many more, but there's a lot of variety. And at some point you will find your clan where you belong and you'll tend to associate with those people. But also when you are out and searching for a mate sexually, you identify immediately with the tribe you belong to. It saves a lot of time from both sides. Speaker 0 00:35:25 So indulge us. What is a pear, a Twinkie, a pig. Speaker 1 00:35:30 That's the thing. Twinkies don't pair together sexually a Twinkie will go looking for a daddy. Okay. Oh, look, the hair is two people. Not as in Speaker 0 00:35:38 The fruit. Well, they'll fruits as I'm so worried about the, Speaker 1 00:35:42 There's also a figure that is universally accepted as the, you know, like with the blood donations, you know, there's one kind that's universal and goes on everybody. That will be the daddy. Okay. Everybody's that his issues. That's why they're gay. Oh, right, right. You know, emotionally unavailable father, a father was emasculated by a very powerful mother. Those are all family dynamics that create a lot of gay people. The goal in life is the one to find that authority figure that daddy figure that takes care of you emotionally, maybe also financially. Speaker 0 00:36:17 Do you think they're more bottoms and tops by a large number? Speaker 1 00:36:20 Um, try not to make a joke here, but I would say yes, Speaker 0 00:36:24 Like a parade of distribution or the 80 20 principle, Speaker 1 00:36:27 Uh, very close. And also they're much more sexually active and aggressive in their hunting. Speaker 0 00:36:34 The tops, the bottoms, the bottoms are words Speaker 1 00:36:36 That surprisingly see the tops. No, they have choices. No, they are a minority. No, they are in high requests and they know that they can have what they want whenever they want bottoms have much more competition. So they have to hunt for it. Okay. And it can be very aggressive when they set their eyes on something Speaker 0 00:36:53 Bottoms up. So even though they're submissive, they're very aggressive. That's it? Speaker 1 00:36:58 There's a power dynamic here. There's a very interesting book called codependent. No more where explains this kind of dynamic where the real power in a Dom sub relationship is always the sub person who has the real control. It's not the daddy that has the power is the house. Boy. There manages everything in the house in the same way, a lot of power couples. Whereas the husband will be the face of the household. The wife is actually the one that leads and takes the decisions for the whole family. Speaker 0 00:37:31 For someone who can knows how to or enjoys flipping, what do you think their true nature is? Or is it different for everybody? Speaker 1 00:37:39 It's a very personal experience. And it goes with the chemistry of the person that's in front of you. Speaker 0 00:37:45 This probably ties into the way you're able to read people when you are close to them. Tell us a little more about that. Speaker 1 00:37:51 Um, I do remember days when the client would walk in and all I needed to do in order to understand what were the needs of the person was to just give him a hug and feel the feedback that I got from his body tension, relaxed or whatever that was. And that was enough for me to understand if it was more dominant or assertive or a submissive, or he just wanted a bit of a loving affection or Speaker 0 00:38:17 Something else. Yeah. I don't know if you've ever articulated that to someone else, but hearing you share it with me, cued me into the fact that I do the same thing with a hug. It tells you so much, are their shoulders tight? Do they Pat you on the back? Like they're burping a baby. Are they tense in their neck and arms, whether there's eye contact or not, whether they melt into you and they give you a hug, whether there's space for intimacy right away, or they need a little more space and distance. And it's actually quite a fascinating thing for anyone to tap into who has the ability to learn, to read someone through touch through a hug, through connection. And what's so beautiful about a hug is it's very, non-threatening, it's safe, it's comfortable. It's such a very gentle way of connecting it's benign. And yet you can tell them most everything you need to know from one, Speaker 1 00:39:03 It's an incredibly powerful tool that if used correctly can really help you read. So understand who is in front of you. Speaker 0 00:39:12 So if I understand correctly, your process goes something like this, you meet someone new and you give them a hug or a warm embrace to feel into who they are, what their needs are, what they want from you. Speaker 1 00:39:23 No, sometimes was the opposite of what he requested or said he was. Speaker 0 00:39:28 And this would inform how dominant or submissive you would then be with the interaction. Speaker 1 00:39:32 Well, being a very versatile person, I would say, and being there I was performing and working. I was on the clock. So I was supposed to perform, right. That's what your mindset is at the moment. Or you want to please, or make sure that a person is having a good time. And that also translates in me reacting a certain way. So if I feel like the other person will be more submissive, I would automatically go in that dominant modes where I take the lead and I decide and everything. And I'm in control. Speaker 0 00:40:04 Do you think that performing is about pleasing the other person and making sure they have a good time Speaker 1 00:40:09 Part of it? I believe there's also second aspect, which is, uh, about, uh, do something that makes you feel good when you see that a sparkle in their eyes. When you see that they are sexually pleased, then they finally got the one touch that it never had in their life because they may be, have a wife and family and responsibilities, but they, they made the decision to not to pursue well, they know they are, it fills your heart with majority. Yes. Speaker 0 00:40:39 You talk a little bit like someone who's a people pleaser. Speaker 1 00:40:43 I drew, I am a people pleaser been raised in a household where the emotional aspect wasn't really addressed something called child. Emotional neglect syndrome may appear, which is a situation where the emotional needs of the child are not addressed and usually results in a weak boundaries, in a lack of trust. And in being a people pleaser and a perfectionist. And all of that goes well with, uh, being a sex worker because you live for the joy of pleasing the other person and give them what they need. Do you feel like you get what you need? It's an incredible satisfaction and validation to be hired for what I did. It's, uh, an immediate gratification, a very selfish one, indeed. But at the same time, when you see the good you do and how well they respond, when you connect with them on a human level, then it makes my day all better. Because I know then now with the, without the money, I would have enjoyed that experience. Anyway. Speaker 0 00:41:47 Can you define for us what your working definition of sex is during three different chapters of your life? What it was for you say until you were age 23, who would it became for you in your thirties and what it is for you now in your forties? Speaker 1 00:42:02 I've come to realize that I have an addictive personality and that usually comes out in two different ways. One is a, an addiction or a search for pleasure. And the other one is for power being the first, I think I pursued my whole life, the most ultimate exquisite, impossible to get pleasures, you know, the exclusive vacations and the best clothes. And we shared a lot of that in our common paths. We only would hang out with the best restaurants. And if that food wasn't perfect, the one bite wasn't perfect, we would be so disappointed. You know, it's a very Epicurean way of seeing the world. And I pursued that since I was a child. Looking back. I remember when I started masturbating at 11, it was the only time I was by myself in the tub without supervision. I got addicted to orgasm. There was my way of, uh, enjoying something that felt good. Sure. And that's where everything started. Right. Speaker 0 00:43:06 You know, I had a guy come by who was purchasing something from me on offer up. It was picking up a sofa for a lady friend of his, and he was very overtly gay. And as he was just talking very casually about sex, he would say, you know, sex is just a handshake. In fact, he laid it out as his global Maxim. This is just how it is. It's a handshake. So this man's working definition of sex is this is just a different way to say hello, does that resonate with you? Or is there an emotional component to it? Um, Speaker 1 00:43:33 It does resonate with me that in certain parts, like let's say hell's kitchen in New York city, you know, quick fucking the back behind the dumpster can be just a way to say hi and you know, to friends. But, um, outside of the specific enclave of gay population, I would assume you have to be a bit more strict in what you define in how you define sex. So I would say if your Dick is out at any point, I would say that sex. Okay. Okay. Oh, and oral is sex too, by the way, bill Clinton taught us that. Speaker 0 00:44:09 Okay. Now when you have sex these days, years after all of the sex work, how do you experience sexuality and sex? Now? Speaker 1 00:44:18 I think sex, like everything else in our, this part of our life, like our beliefs, they grow with you and they change and they have to change is always growth. So of course I'm not interacting a sexual way with people. The way I did 10 years ago, Renna was a sex worker. When I was a teenager, I tend to connect more on a personal level and I'm more selective and I'm in the moment I enjoy what's happening and I don't need anything else outside of it always be looking for the next or the better experience that's going to come after that. And I'll see if I may add something. Now I can, um, still enjoy the attention that I can get from other men and decide not to act on it. And I think that's a bit of growth, you know, it's not just because somebody is throwing themselves at you, that you have to do something about it. You can just enjoy the flattery and respectfully decline and be a mature adult about it. Speaker 0 00:45:16 I would say that's a pretty major form of growth because how do you even begin to realize or recognize that saying yes to an opportunity that you like, and you want to have, especially as a man is detrimental and when it comes to sex and enjoyment and pleasure seeking, and you're having another and another and another, and it's satisfying something for you, how did you come to realize that you don't have to say yes to everything? Did that happen in a moment or over time? Speaker 1 00:45:42 On one hand, it comes from the, my past, as a sex worker. And at some point I was maybe exaggerating a bit in the variety and the quantity and in a time that I spent in enjoying interacting with other men or get to know them, you know, in a biblical sense. But the point is, is, um, the point is, I don't know. Speaker 0 00:46:07 Oh no, that it was his growth that you're able to say no. So even though sex is available to you now, it's there, you can take it in a moment, your ability to say no. Did that hit you in an aha kind of moment? Or is this something you've been working on over time that you don't have to say yes to, Speaker 1 00:46:28 Uh, when you start a journey of, um, introspection and soul searching and trying to end betterment be a better person and a better, uh, partner and member of the society, you realize that you don't have to react to everything that's around you just because it's there. So even though I used to react like that, you know, every boy that I didn't put my hands on was, you know, a last one now it's just a way to gauge my loss. It, again, it must be something that really cared about because when the brain is interfering like that, it's messing me up. It means that, um, Speaker 0 00:47:03 You were saying you don't have to sleep with everyone. Speaker 1 00:47:05 Well, I don't think we might decay. And right now my brain growth, I'm not like 40 something. So yeah, Speaker 0 00:47:12 I think that there's a component of that that has to do with maturity as well. Like just being in your forties, it's like something clicks over where you can just take a breath and not have to avail yourself of everything that comes your way. All right. Here's a silly question. You know, I think women who do sex work probably don't want to be referred to as hoes or horrors know, you sort of use it in an endearing or playful joking way. Can anybody call anybody a ho or is the person who is being the ho the only one who can own it because they're the ones who are doing it. Speaker 1 00:47:40 You can, if you are one, you can, then you are entitled to use the words. It's a way to add a bit of levity to the situation and the dramatize. Speaker 0 00:47:49 But if someone referred to you as a ho or an ex ho would that be offensive Speaker 1 00:47:54 Coming from another whole Rexel will be, uh, a term of endearment. Oh, absolutely. Right. Speaker 0 00:48:00 But coming from anyone else, it'd be offensive. Incredibly offensive. Okay. Interesting. Good. Did you want to say anything else about tapping into unexpressed parts of sexual desires in your clientele? Things that they may not have been able to get into before, due to shame homophobia or kinks that they weren't aware of? Speaker 1 00:48:18 Yeah. We always underestimate the power of internalized homophobia and how that can really sabotage our own life in terms of happiness, but also having a healthy sexual life and sometimes body language doesn't lie. Right? So, uh, you can really get feedback from touching them or putting, getting close to them. Speaker 0 00:48:38 What is internalized homophobia for our listeners? Speaker 1 00:48:41 I would say it's a set of rules in terms of moral and what's right and wrong that we learned as children from school, society, TV, parents, uh, religion. And whether you agree with them or not, they become part of you of your heritage as long along with the cultural, you know, rules and all of that, and the morals. And, uh, as an adult, you have the responsibility to go back and screen through all of those rules and morals. And the sidewalk still is part of you and what you never was, uh, if you happen to be okay, you may want to, at some point, let go of the homophobia, which is the idea that gaze bad, no matter what God doesn't like gay people and my family doesn't like them and et cetera, et cetera. So it's a way to detach or disconnect the shame and guilt from the act itself. Speaker 0 00:49:36 Okay. And do you feel like you were able to get other men or clients to tap into their primal needs and kink relatively easy? Do you feel like that's a skill set of yours? Speaker 1 00:49:46 Unfortunately, yes. I really enjoyed back then every version and nuance of a sexual interaction with other men. And it was a way for me to learn and to give or to teach sometimes. And it's done in a very playful way. You see men interact in a very primal way of being like you would see animals in the wild, right? When you have always the dominant person that takes control, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and it's fascinating being able to that, to be part of that process. Speaker 0 00:50:21 Do you see the straight world as being a lot of, uh, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but a lot of, a lot of extra, a lot of dancing around and beating around the proverbial Bush, things that have to happen before you can get to the point or access that primal aspect. If they can even get there at all. Speaker 1 00:50:39 It seems to me like it's a lot of extra work that's unnecessary and it could be easily streamlined by being a director at the very beginning. Not necessarily even at the initial meeting, even from the chatting on the app, being about who you really are and what you want and what you're looking for, instead of sending your best 10 Instagram photos, they've been heavily retouched and then create this persona. Uh, I like long walks on the beach. Sure. You know, we all know that we're here because you're looking for Dick. So be honest. And I'll be honest with you and I'll tell you if that matches what I'm looking Speaker 0 00:51:18 Course. And what might you say to a woman who says, no, no, I want so much more than that. I need walks on the beach, emotional connection. Speaker 1 00:51:24 I would say, you know, you can't really bullshit a bullshitter, so I can see through that. And I wouldn't really be able to interact with that person. Speaker 0 00:51:35 Gotcha. So what's your favorite kind of man to interact with his energy? His countenance, his lifestyle class. Speaker 1 00:51:43 It's the sexy man who doesn't know he is. And the still hasn't found that power and he doesn't know how to, he doesn't know he has it let alone how to control it. And he's incredibly refreshing to interact with these people. They're still in the sentence. Sweet and sexy. And they treat you like one up here. They don't have any feeling of, uh, being better just because they have a bigger, a better body or just because they incredibly handsome. Speaker 0 00:52:17 That's beautiful. Do you find that that kind of man falls into any category in terms of lifestyle or preference or age? Speaker 1 00:52:24 They just, I can be a 20 year old, 30, 40, 50 for me, the most amazing sexual experiences I've had were with people that I don't really remember faces of bodies or names or everything, but, um, uh, the farthest from what I think is my ideal of sexy men. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:52:44 Yeah. That's really interesting. You're captivated by that innocence and it doesn't really matter how they look. Okay. So then what do you think the most difficult man to interact with is, um, Speaker 1 00:52:59 I'm trying not to be disrespectful here, but I will say greedy bottoms Speaker 0 00:53:07 And, uh, who is the greedy bottom? Exactly. Speaker 1 00:53:10 Um, it's a forming the, you know, kaleidoscope of gay men out there that has a very high sex drive. They enjoy being treated now very nicely. Let's say, in the bedroom and to compensate for feelings of, uh, inadequacy, I would say maybe. Speaker 0 00:53:31 And what does it mean to you? Exactly. If a bottom or a greedy bottom is emotionally constipated Speaker 1 00:53:38 Constipated, man. And this is a real thing is a person who is, uh, not able to access his feelings and emotions. So, um, or you will not express any of that with words or anything. And all you have to do is guess those are the hardest clients, by the way, I will never see one a second time. Speaker 0 00:54:00 Okay. And what kind of hug does an emotionally constipated man have to offer? Speaker 1 00:54:05 He stands up there like a piece of goldfish. And you do all the work? Yes. Oh yeah. They're very rigid. Um, physical intimacy, something they never managed. So it kind of sucks. You dry. Uh, it's more like you can get a feedback and that, um, puts me off balance because I need constant feedback from my, the person I'm with to enjoy my own personal experience. So the more I see the pleasure in the rise or the Morrissey, the satisfaction, the more it makes me happy. And it makes me feel accomplished because then also sex for me was incredibly fulfilling. Right. Whereas the worst people I ever hooked up were those, uh, young models, tall, beautiful men, and they know they are and they expect to just lie there and, uh, be, has had everything done to them. And it's just an incredible turn off. Speaker 0 00:55:03 Yeah. That actually goes both ways in the straight community as well. It's interesting. The comments you made about the person who's closed up wild up or stiff, do you find that afterwards they have mixed feelings about the experience with you? Speaker 1 00:55:15 I've had clients, you know, hugging me in the end and expressing the gratitude for what I did and maybe they would shed a tear or two. Right. And these can be people in the 70, 60, 20. It doesn't matter very times. Unfortunately, people come to the realization that they're gay very late in life when they already have a family, children, responsibilities work career. And, uh, we can't really hold it against them if they decide to choose that instead of their own, you know, identity Speaker 0 00:55:46 Able to love all men sexually, or do you have, Speaker 1 00:55:53 I had the power? I don't think I have it anymore. I have to have a very strong connection and a physical attraction. Speaker 0 00:56:03 Gotcha. But previously, how did you overcome that hurdle? Especially being male. And Speaker 1 00:56:10 It wasn't a hurdle I saw through that. I saw it wasn't their heart and what they wanted. And, uh, I just connected on the common grounds and build that from there. The way Speaker 0 00:56:21 You talk about sex work is as though it was a, like a strong desire for you to be involved in that way. Speaker 1 00:56:28 It was my calling. It was my perfect job. I was able to interact with people. I had fun. I was able to be myself, be comfortable in my own skin. I learned a lot about myself. I had all the validation that I wanted from these powerful men, sometimes beautiful men. And that's a stroking your ego. And that's addictive being, having an addictive personality. Of course it became something I needed. I needed a validation. I needed attention. I needed money. I needed sex and I needed drugs some later in the, and I needed all of that immediately. So it's the addictive mind that, um, tricks you into thinking you need all of that and you need it immediately in order for you to feel good. Speaker 0 00:57:15 What are some of your biggest turn-ons and turn-offs for you personally sexually Speaker 1 00:57:20 Turn it on will be a good sexual chemistry. And again, it can happen with anybody when you least expect it has nothing to do with the physical appearance. They just don't know, try, they belong to et cetera. And, um, what's the second question. Speaker 0 00:57:35 What are some of your turnoffs? I think you, maybe we talked about that a little bit. Speaker 1 00:57:39 Yeah. Somebody who doesn't engage, maybe because he doesn't know what to do with those emotions. Uh, but uh, now getting feedback from my date is a big turnoff because then being a people pleaser, I get activated in the same way as the person in front of me. Gotcha. Speaker 0 00:57:56 Yeah. So then what would you say was the most addictive part of the work that you did? Speaker 1 00:58:02 Uh, the being worshiped, like you're a gods you show up and they worship every inch of your body. Speaker 0 00:58:10 And how is that different from feeling attraction? This idea of being worshiped like a God, Speaker 1 00:58:14 They treat you like you are as some sort of Damie college. Like you have something special that other men don't, and it's what they want to, they want to incorporate a piece of you, whether it's youth, a great body, a big deck, whatever they think in their fantasy. It's, um, very, very primal. Again, incorporation of the other person's quality into what you think may be your lost youth, your, uh, you know, your security on your own, uh, sexual attractiveness or Sonic support. Speaker 0 00:58:46 Yeah. Those are huge observations, especially the part of feeling like maybe youth has been lost. And so people seek that out in a partner and somehow they find that validating or reassuring that they're still attractive to someone who's maybe more attractive than them or younger. But for you, you're saying that the most attractive part of this was feeling this kind of warship. Speaker 1 00:59:08 That is correct. Yes. Yeah. Wow. And, um, there went even beyond the know the money and all of that. Speaker 0 00:59:15 This kind of brings us around to the territory of addiction and drugs. Speaker 1 00:59:19 That's correct. I guess common knowledge. There's a lot of drugs when it comes to sex work or sex in general. And there's some cities that have a culture of, uh, mixing drugs and sex for recreational use. And it's called part in play in big cities like Berlin, London, you know, New York, they all have big communities that do that. Speaker 0 00:59:42 Take us through what the common ones are, how they're used, how they're mixed. So everyone listening can have a framework for this. No, Speaker 1 00:59:49 Do not, of course approve or want to glorify any in a form of drugs and sex mixed together. But back then, for me, it was revelation. I always put off trying any drugs because I knew I saw the effect that he had on people, how he slowly eroded their values and he led them to isolation. And to this, uh, being stuck in a circle when they are not able to pull themselves out of it at the same time, the temptation is high because there's clients that pay you more for you to do drugs with them. They hire you to go into drugs with them. And if you don't or you fake, they see it. So at some point the financial pressure is okay, I'll try, or maybe I'll fake or maybe just smoke a bit. And then, um, before you know, it, uh, you know, it becomes part of the, your daily job. You have to do drugs in order to do your job. Speaker 0 01:00:42 So is that sort of how you got into doing drugs because the job actually required it of you? Speaker 1 01:00:48 That's correct. Yes. I never really tried. I need trucks or even smoking or drinking even in college. And, um, I guess, uh, when I started, he became a revelation to me, how they can really enhance the experience is also very dangerous because you mix two things. They're incredibly can be very rewarding for your brain, which is sex and drugs. And some of them release an immediate cascade of dopamine in the brain there make you feel like you're gods and you make a feel invincible. And the drug of choice for the gay community in many cities is a methamphetamine, which is about a hundred times more powerful than cocaine in being a stimulant. The danger is that, um, it doesn't last a few hours. It stays in your body for about, uh, 20, 22 hours before it gets to half-life. So that means that your actions or what you think a conditioned for the next, pretty much day, you have to use it. So the next day you start using again, because you still feel like you want to, um, have that kind of feel good feeling. Okay. Speaker 0 01:02:00 Yeah. So then was your first experience with meth with the client? Speaker 1 01:02:06 Yes, it was a client and, uh, he requested me to use, and, um, of course it gives an immediate sense of euphoria and wellbeing, but then at the coming down part was horrible because you can sleep at night, you know, 22 hours long. You can not sleep for that amount of time. You don't eat, you have a lot of energy. And finally, when it gets out of your system, you literally crack the next day. You feel horrible. Speaker 0 01:02:33 So how do you go from an experience like that, where you say to yourself, God, I never want to experience anything like that ever again, too. I think I'm going to do this again. And again, can you walk us through the addiction process? How did it go from enjoying the high and hating the crash to addiction? Speaker 1 01:02:52 Um, I realized early on that if you start partying again, you feel good again. So there was one and then a bit of research online. I find out ways to sleep at night, despite being partying that day, or how to compensate for the side effects with other drugs. You know, one is a stimulants, I would say an upper. So why don't we mix it with a downer? And all of a sudden you have a whole different experience. Speaker 0 01:03:19 Someone who, well, I know how much you value your body, your life, your wellbeing. How does that play against because you and I are so similar in that way, and I could never do that, but somehow you were able to do it. How, how did you manage that at the beginning? Speaker 1 01:03:35 You rationalize a lot. So you think it's just for the money I'm doing it because they pay me extra. And then before, you know, it, you only book party clients because you know, they go for days on end. So you can make a thousand dollars in a few hours and guess what? In those few hours you basically do drugs and have sex and then hang out with boys. So what does not to like right back then, I thought, right, this cannot end bad in any possible way. Also the sense of wellbeing that the crystal meth gives you, you know, that dopamine in your brain keeping released, it's a positive, very, very strong reinforcement. So you keep going at that for the feeling of wellbeing that you can when you use the other aspect, is that very closely related drugs to methamphetamine, like for instance, amphetamine proper, which will be Adderall, that gives you focus, et cetera. And MGMA also known as Molly. Uh, they're very S there's very small changes in those molecules, but Molly, for instance, uh, taps into your empathy, crystallized methamphetamine goes straight into your sexuality. It makes you very, very sexual. So parts of you, you didn't even know had in terms of a raw sexuality, they come out to very quickly. And sometimes they're very unpleasant to see. And sometimes these a nice surprise. Speaker 0 01:04:56 I'm curious as a man, if you ever felt like you were in any danger that someone was too large for you or took advantage, or you felt nervous for your life or scared in any way, often when women do this, this is something they need to look out for, or it's a big concern for them. Speaker 1 01:05:13 I never felt like I was in danger. I think there's a sort of respect to that. It comes to other people that party like you, and, uh, they respect each other. And, uh, also you do a bit of screening, you know, anybody that sounds a bit too crazy or called you 4:00 AM in the morning, very agitated probably is not a good choice to Uber over there. Uh, but that being said, I never felt like I was in danger. And actually I was treated with the most respect with, uh, these wonderful people that happen to be, or to have an addiction problem. Speaker 0 01:05:46 Almost anytime I come across someone who's gay, they inevitably have an incredible figure. They're well taken care of. Well-manicured aesthetically. They look phenomenal. If someone is pudgy or fat or chunky in the gay community, does he have a significantly more difficult time having fun or having sex, getting a relationship or does it just depend on the individual and what they like, Speaker 1 01:06:08 There'll be very personal and changes from person to person personally. I, I like that. I find it very attractive, you know, people that have a bit of little meat on their bones, curvaceous, curvaceous, but again, that's me. Right? Um, and it goes a lot with your, the way you project your personal image. If you see yourself as having a defect that prevents you from interacting with other human beings, probably you will have problems. If you're confident, it doesn't matter if you're tall or short or whatever, the situation you will be very successful in what you do. Good. Okay. Speaker 0 01:06:45 I want to talk to you a little bit more about sexual intimacy. And I imagine that when you're intimate with another person, do you find it hard to keep things fresh and new? If you're with a consistent partner now versus all the fun and excitement you used to have with a multitude of different ones? Speaker 1 01:07:01 I used to think that I was just someone who had a lot of love to give. And so I was able to do that. And at the same time, date men, like I have a relationship, I have a long-term relationship. Yes, of course, that didn't work out very well. And also I was in probably this denial situation when a thought that the world revolved around me and my glorious Dick, right. Everything, that's all the matter. Right. Because people pay money for it. So it must be something amazing. Right. And the SWAT, of course, I deluding myself into B and also math makes you, Bulletproof makes you feel like you're invincible. Speaker 0 01:07:37 What do you think? Some of the key differences are between men and women sexually Speaker 1 01:07:41 With women. There's a lot of fluff right here to romance them, blah, blah, blah. And also they have a different sexual drive. The men, men have a much higher sexual drive because of course are men, right? Testosterone, look at what happened with animals. It's always the men, the males chasing the females no other way around. Um, so you put two men in the same place. They're going to end up in a look at what monkey is doing the zoo, right? It doesn't matter if a man or a woman they need to get off. Right. And masturbate all day long, keep in mind, monkeys are the closest thing. I know they have a lot of stamina. You know, women can be in a position with the lights. I've been there for 45 minutes. Whereas a power bottom can go for four hours and do 15 men. Speaker 1 01:08:17 You know, they just don't, they don't stop literally. And these are people that don't necessarily party that can be sober. Wow. They go for hours. They take anything for as long as they, you know, so you understand how the scenarios are much more varied besides men like variety. Right? So the possibilities are endless when you put two, three, four men in one room, whereas a man and a woman is like, Oh, what should we do? Okay. Missionary, you know, fuck. And then watch a movie. Yeah. Right. So if I must pop voice first, she need some oils. That will be lovely. The face Mister is calling my name. Also, all this talking about sex is making me parched. I don't know. Uh, it's good to laugh about this stuff. All right. Speaker 0 01:08:58 Someone with the body of work that you have, I imagine you might find yourself in positions where you're doing the same thing over and over. You find something that works. And then because it, does you repeat it with different clients. Do you think of yourself as someone who's got tons of tools in your toolbox? Do you go back to old favorites? How does all of that work for you? Speaker 1 01:09:17 I definitely have a lot of tools. Some of them are very effective. Uh, the dominant daddy always works for everybody. But, uh, Speaker 0 01:09:27 Tell us about that guy. Who's the dominant dad. Speaker 1 01:09:30 I don't know if I want to give out this piece of power. Yeah. You know, with the great powers come responsibility as well. So I don't want to encourage any bad behavior. Yeah. Gay piglet out there to pick up, you know, something that I not ready to control yet. But, um, it's the longing for letting go and not being in control and relinquish your power to somebody else. It's the most powerful form of a power dynamic between people, if it's done correctly. And if you feel like you have the power, you can use it as much as you want. And the bottom, the sub, pardon me, will have no choice and we'll enjoy being manhandled by the other person. Speaker 0 01:10:12 So sexual consent is an enormously important topic. Does consent exist in the gay community in the same way or as much as it does in the heterosexual community? Yeah. Speaker 1 01:10:24 Yes, of course. Um, the constant feedback is part of what makes my experience with the man comfortable for me when I stopped receiving feedback, I stopped on my track because I don't really know if I'm doing something wrong or if there's something going on from his, and until I do, I'm not able to focus. Right. But they'd been said, yes, there is. Uh, we always would, uh, agree on what they get into or not before they meet. So they put them on the table. Whereas I feel like in a heterosexual dating is more of like, uh, discovering bits and pieces. And then at some point you decide if you want to pursue, keep pursuing the relationship or not with man is much easier. The moment that you start chatting the, after the pleasantries you go into. So what are you getting into top bottom, Dom sub uh, you like kinky or whatever is the case. And if that matches your erotic map that you have in your brain, then you have a possible match. Yeah, for sure. Speaker 0 01:11:21 It's incredible to be able to language, things like that. And I think in the heterosexual community, it would make things infinitely easier between men and women, if men were actually allowed to or felt that they were allowed to ask, what are you into? What's your kink? How do you like to have sex? What are you open to right from the get-go. But for most women, for many women, this is just a non-starter. You can't ask these questions. They come with time, you get to know them. They unfold bit by bit. As you alluded to you, can't sit down on your coffee date and lead with. So is it going to be missionary, doggy style? And by the way, do you like bondage? And so we are always in a sense having to do some mind, reading some guessing, some intimating, because you don't want to make the person feel uncomfortable. Speaker 0 01:12:04 You don't want to make them feel embarrassed. And many women will just bring the entire interaction to a close or relationship to a close. If she feels the tiniest bit uncomfortable. In fact, discomfort, in my opinion, is the kryptonite of all dating and relationships. So if you say something direct and honest, here's what I'm into. Here's what I like. What about you? And she perceives this as a God forbid, red flag or even worse. It makes her feel uncomfortable because it's something that's new to her, or she's not familiar with it, or it doesn't come from her playbook, how she does it and how it's supposed to go during dating. Then you run the risk of the whole thing going amok. So there's something beautiful and pristine and simple, even though women might say there's something mysterious and elegant and fun and exciting about drawing someone out and getting to know them and discovering a bit by bed and not putting it all on the table. Speaker 0 01:12:59 But for, from a man's perspective, understanding what's actually on the table where the boundaries are, where the limits are, what you do, like what you don't like, just gives a roadmap. That's so much easier to follow me personally. I do think that's a more effective way in today's society for men and women to get along. Even if it takes away a little bit of the mystery and the uncertainty and the excitement of where is this going, because no, one's going to get hurt if you're clear and everybody respects each other's boundaries and you're able to articulate what you do. And don't like, Oh, I mean, I dream of a world like this, but I think because many people and often many women who often carry a lot of shame or guilt around sex, or they don't want to be perceived as this way or that way. They don't want to look too promiscuous, slutty. Horesh whatever we have to sidestep this all the time. And the direct approach just gets thrown out and replaced with games, deceit, dishonesty, manipulation, and unfortunately lots and lots of lies. Speaker 1 01:14:01 Uh, believe it or not, that happens also in the gay community, the emotionally constipated people we refer to about people that they think they want something, but actually they want something else. Right. Right. I would say likely the majority of men, they just know what they want. And that's refreshing because you have a way to determine if you want to interact and engage with this person or not sure. Speaker 0 01:14:24 I just can't say it enough. I think a direct approach in dating is not only so much easier, but mandatory at this point. And that's even if it's not natural for women to be this way, even if it's difficult for them to be direct, honest, upfront with how they feel, clarify what they want, not use words like, I don't know, or I'm just trying to see where this is going, or I'm not sure what I want yet, because for obvious reasons, when it's direct and clear and honest, everyone's on the same page, you know what you're getting and no one's getting hurt. And if something makes you feel uncomfortable or uneasy, you just let the person know and step out of it. As opposed to hints, staying silent, hoping that the guy will get it or be able to read your body language or expecting him to be a mind reader. Direct communication makes everything so much easier. So then if I can ask in your previous relationship with a woman, were you able to read her as easily? Even if she wasn't as direct and upfront? Speaker 1 01:15:20 I was trying hard to fulfill my role as I guess, a mate or a partner. And I was more of a relationship of equals. So I didn't really read too much into it, but back then also I wasn't as sexually emancipated as I later became. Yeah. Speaker 0 01:15:37 You've often spoken about fulfilling roles and being what or who people want you to be. Who do you want to be today in terms of your sexuality, your dominance, your romantic life, Speaker 1 01:15:48 Uh, someone who is able to be himself without having to justify or control or change who I am. Speaker 0 01:15:58 Do you ever crave like warm, connected, tender sex or love making? Speaker 1 01:16:03 Well, the time I think is the most beautiful expression of love you can have for somebody it's the fusion of two souls and it goes beyond the bodies. Speaker 0 01:16:14 I don't want to lead this question, but do you feel at your age now that you're called toward primal carnal eroticism, like call it hot fucking or do you lean more toward, you know, to sort of sum up that gentle more intimate, more passionate lovemaking style? Speaker 1 01:16:31 I don't particularly enjoy using the expression lovemaking. Um, sex is a very powerful act that taps into our, uh, primordial part of our brain, right. It's necessary for the, to procreate so that the, this piece is doesn't get extinct. So we are fulfilling a biological purpose. There's no other way around it, right? So the reason that there's a lot of incentives for us to engage in sex, you know, pleasure, orgasm, you know, and so on and so forth is a cultural added bonus to it. But when you bring it down to basic, we are fulfilling a biological needs of preserving the human species. So in that sense, it's not really lovemaking. It's about, uh, it's about, uh, propagating your DNA with as many with as many people as well. Speaker 0 01:17:26 But at the same time you spoke about finding it to be a beautiful connecting experience. I'm saying lovemaking to distinguish between that intense primal fucking right. So you've got, Speaker 1 01:17:36 Oh no, with gay people is always intense. I'm a fucking, the lovemaking can last five minutes and then you go back to the pound and I'll tell you that those screams of joy really can really brighten up your day. Speaker 0 01:17:54 Uh, so addiction for how many years would you say that you were addicted to drugs of some sort? Speaker 1 01:18:03 Uh, I think when I started, I went a bit Olin, so I tried a bit of everything. You know, Molly ecstasy ecstasy is the same crystal meth, uh, ketamine G starting at cannabis, 33 34, maybe pretty much. Yeah. And then it was about three years, two, three years. And, um, in the latest months, I think I mentioned I was intentionally booking just clients that would party because I wanted to part party with them. You know, I wasn't just the easy money. It was. I craved that. And then at some point it became a daily ritual that I did by myself would just smoke a bit just to, you know, as people do with a cigarette. Speaker 0 01:18:43 Well, and you say smoke, you're not talking about weed, Speaker 1 01:18:46 I'm smoking, I'm talking about smoking meth, all right, right. And become something that you need to just go through the day, a crutch that you need to, you know, do your work and, uh, you know, whatever function on it. While at some point when you keep using it, you become tolerant. Of course, and you don't get high anymore. And the side effects subsides, and you just, basically, you are on a 50 naturals a day, every day. That's the feeling that you have. You're very focused. You get a lot done, but you don't get high anymore. You don't get that. Um, even that sexual drive anymore. And it becomes just a crutch to go through your day. And that's when I decided to end it because it was becoming a manageable and it was interfering with my daily life. You see the addiction, any of them really, uh, can be sex addiction or alcohol or gambling or shopping food. Speaker 1 01:19:42 Uh, they all have in common that they bring to isolation. You know, you start doing it with friends and then the moment you start drinking or eating or smoking by yourself, you are in stage three addiction. And that's what it was. And when you were there, you need something or somebody to help you out because it's at the point when you can't stop yourself, you know, you've set boundaries and limits and say, okay, I'm going to, I'm not going smoke today. Or I'm going to limit myself to this and that. And of course you break it three minutes later, you know, or you flush it. And then three hours later, you call the dealer again. Speaker 0 01:20:16 So we can clearly say that you've got an addictive personality. Speaker 1 01:20:20 I've had an addictive personality since I can remember. Okay. Speaker 0 01:20:24 Does that mean for you that you have to be careful with anything and everything that you involve yourself with food, sweets, gambling, movies, sex, whatever. Speaker 1 01:20:33 Absolutely. I see. And I feel that when I turned down, one of the addictions, let's say I stopped using drugs. Then it turned up the others, which can be sex. If I stop hooking up with people, then I transferred that to a different venue. Food that can be shopping, it can be gambling. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Speaker 0 01:20:55 From your position, do you think that this is something you're going to have to live with for the rest of your life? Or do you think that with some things you'd be able to dabble in them? Not that you want to dabble in crystal meth, but can we go do a little bit of Emporio Armani shopping, indulgent a little bit of sweets, or is it all or nothing Speaker 1 01:21:13 Off the record? I will say there's a lot of, uh, drugs that, um, I feel a lot of people have control over and they can go back now. And then if they want to, one of them will be marijuana. For instance, there's others that once you get addicted is incredibly hard to get out of it, especially by yourself. One of them will be alcohol. Now the one is meth, and then all the opioids, synthetic and not Speaker 0 01:21:40 Did you wake up one day and then in a flash or a moment decide you were going to stop taking drugs, Speaker 1 01:21:44 Believe it or not marihuana saved my life. Okay. I was one of the few people that would mix it with, um, meth or in my, you know, party, routine, and marijuana to me gives me incredible introspection. And it takes all the walls and defenses that you have around you down immediately. And you can see the others, you can see yourself, you can see the dynamic of people interacting. You can see if you're a restaurant. If two people are fighting all this tension, you can see there's any dynamic. It gives you superpowers to see through all of that. And you see, you can also turn that flashlight into yourself and you can get a glimpse of what's down there. Let's say you can shine a bright light for just a moment in that dark part of your soul, that in that part of your soul, that you haven't had a chance to have access to for decades maybe. And even though it's just a glimpse, it's a starting point to maybe do some changes. Speaker 0 01:22:42 Have you found any other tool that helps you tap into that place? Speaker 1 01:22:46 Yeah, my vanity, uh, one day I was in this beautiful suite or the one of those expensive hotels and, um, uh, looking at stuff in the mirror. And I didn't like what I saw, what I had become this dark manipulative, greedy, selfish person that, and also, uh, you know, partying, doing drugs ages you very, very quickly. And that I do not care. I saw like I was low in my, you know, body and my, um, and that that's when I decided I needed to stop that. So my vanity and cannabis saved my life. Believe it or not. Yeah. Speaker 0 01:23:26 Yeah. What are some tools that you use for recovery or to help you pull through? Are you into yoga meditation or things like that? Speaker 1 01:23:35 I'm glad you asked. Sorry. Um, I started with ways to cure myself alone. So I started therapy and things like that. And, um, I was suggested by a therapist to find support groups because clearly I was at the point when I need external help. I couldn't get myself out of the situation alone. And the support groups have been very helpful in all of a sudden, you talk to people that have, uh, the same issues, the same background, and you think you're so special and then realize, no you're one in a million. You think you had a bad child, childhood there's hundreds of people that did. Do you think you were, you know, you had an emotionally unavailable father who hasn't had one, you know, and you can connect with these people and see how they made it and you think, Oh wow, I can make it to out of this. The other aspect is what I was missing is, um, my spiritual side, since I rejected religion at a very early age or the idea of God, I had this void inside of me, somehow, I filled it with, uh, drugs and sex. Speaker 0 01:24:41 At what point in your life then did you realize that you wanted to fill it with something more meaningful or more spiritual? For example, what does spirituality mean to you? Speaker 1 01:24:50 Uh, I think I was on my first support group when they talked to a lot about spirituality, how important that is. And, um, I started taking meditations in the first thought to these people that we're a bunch of hippies. They meditate, they pray to God, you know, and just go along with it to make them happy. And then I tried and he's really a very simple, scientific way to calm yourself down. It's self-soothing right. You change your, the way you breathe. You change your thoughts in your brain in a meditation creates synopsis. And God knows how many synopsis I burned to during those years of partying. Um, yoga is something that keeps me grounded. So all things that connect me to other people on a spiritual level, and that meaning have a positive impact in the life of any addict. Speaker 0 01:25:39 Do you have to completely separate yourself from people and friends who use drugs now, or are you able to spend time with people who regularly use, Speaker 1 01:25:48 Right? I think it varies from person to person. They call it a trigger. Um, personally, I don't get triggered by being around people that use drugs. It's not an issue for me. See, at the very core, the recovery from addiction is that you to realize that you are an addict, you have always been, you will always be, it's like a sickness. You need your daily dose of medicine. You'll be fine by you always be an addict. And, um, that's how you can, uh, manage it. The moment that you relax and say, well, I'm good. Then you relapse back again. Also knowing your limits, right? If you know that certain things are triggers for you, you just avoid them all together. Um, supportive friends, right? You surround yourself with the people, the other sober, not partying or in any way to support your choices. And they don't think you are. Um, they don't judge you for trying to be a better person and improve yourself Speaker 0 01:26:48 When you were a sex worker. Was that like a full-time job for you? Was it something you could do repeatedly for days or weeks on end? Speaker 1 01:26:55 Um, help me understand the question. Are you asking how many clients I could do in one day? Speaker 0 01:27:00 I think that's where I'm going. Yes. Speaker 1 01:27:02 Awesome. Uh, depends how much fun I was having, if it was a good fun, yes. Um, numbers doesn't really matter. It's more about the experience, you know? Okay. Speaker 0 01:27:13 So you were actually enjoying the work that you were doing on most occasions, short of the times you were having bad chemistry with someone to being emotionally unavailable. Okay. Wow. And are you coming each time or do you hold back? Speaker 1 01:27:25 I did not. There was reserved for special, special people off that one special bottom that you see the glimpse in the rise and the puppy eyes and the big smile, and you want to give them something special and then they get it. Speaker 0 01:27:40 So it sounds like they really need to deserve it. So then how often per week did you come across someone special like this or feel compelled to bequeath that upon someone? This Speaker 1 01:27:50 Is incredibly personal time. Speaker 0 01:27:52 Super intimate. There's a reason behind it though. Speaker 1 01:27:55 No, I'm starting because I have to, uh, try to think about that. I never talked about this with anyone before, so I don't even know how to answer that. Maybe three to five Speaker 0 01:28:03 Times per week, per week. Oh, wow. Okay. That's still a lot. Yeah. I asked because there's a practice or even a spiritual practice known as semen retention and yeah, Speaker 1 01:28:12 I'm just going to go ahead and say that I don't really care for that borrowing from more, um, borrowing, pop culture. I would, uh, take the analogy of the road to HANA as you know, very well. Since you are a Hawaii kind of guy, a Hawaii kind of guy, he has, um, a place in Maui called HANA. It's a small town, nothing really special about the town is up in the Hills. What's um, referred to normally as the road to HANA is the narrow street that coasts the coastline. It goes all the way up to the top. And there's so many beautiful things you can stop and enjoy and see you on your way to HANA, which is the surfer towns, the beaches, the waterfalls, jungle meeting people, and maybe something going on in the bushes who knows the point is you may or may not get to HANA. It doesn't matter if you enjoyed the journey, Speaker 0 01:29:11 Not the destination. Speaker 1 01:29:13 So I can enjoy. I used to enjoy 12 hours of nonstop, Sachs, thank you for the pharmaceuticals and a non necessarily have to come, Speaker 0 01:29:24 Right? Because for men, it can be very exhausting to come all the time, incredibly exhausting. And that's where I tied all together is where do you find the stamina, the energy, when you're that drain depleting yourself five, six, seven times a week. Speaker 1 01:29:39 It's nature's way of saying you've done your job now, stand aside. You're done. But also there's another aspect it needs to be considered. You know, when you're in a monogamous relationship or you're dating not to go back to what you were saying, you know, I'm trying to point fingers or anything about, let's say a man and a woman. They tend to be like, long-term even if you're dating. And so for quite some times you have sex with the same person. And the moment that you introduce an element of variety of something new man recharge very, very quickly. So the more you keep adding boys to the room, the more the energy level goes up. And all of a sudden it's, uh, a lot of sweaty bodies doing something that is unspeakable and it's beautiful. Speaker 0 01:30:22 Well, that is a very interesting, almost spiritual sounding concept because you're literally saying that a man's energy level, in fact, his ability to have more sex rises in direct proportion to the new stimulation and novelty of people, partners things in his sight. Speaker 1 01:30:42 That is absolutely right. Add a new toy, a couple of cufflinks or Speaker 0 01:30:47 A new nipple clamp. Speaker 1 01:30:50 You put client. Yes, for us would be like a new boy or whatever. And all of a sudden, everybody's, you know, that's interesting Speaker 0 01:30:59 For women listening to the show. I think it's really important to hear what he's describing. He's talking about not just a psychological, but a physiological change when you introduce variety or novelty or newness, some women for sure are wired like this. No doubt, but almost all men enjoy variety and novelty on some level, it doesn't need to be judged. It doesn't need to be reduced down as being basic. It doesn't mean that comments need to be made like, Oh, a man will fuck anything. Or he got hard looking at this cartoon picture or Jessica rabbit gets him off. We truly are wired to be visually stimulated and we enjoy change and variety. And so just as a little side note, what this often creates in relationships is a major problem where the partner doesn't understand why isn't she enough, or if she just gave him incredible sex. Speaker 0 01:31:53 And he says, Oh, I love you so much. You're perfect. You're my, everything I have no want for anything else. Why then does head turn when a waitress walks by or he can't help, but notice someone who walked by him on the street, or why does he watch porn or an even better question? Does he still masturbate? And that's because of a love and desire for variety and passion and likely when Amanda's masturbating, he's possibly thinking about you as his partner, but also many other things as well. So even though this won't be true for everybody, if you take a man who's head over heels in love with his partner and you put five stunning and attractive women in front of them and say, Hey, these women want to have sex with you. You can have sex with them. There's no ramifications. You won't get into trouble. Speaker 0 01:32:37 Your wife is okay with it. Please have at it. Very few men would turn that down. Whereas an I do want to be careful saying this because I know this is not for every woman. And I know women who enjoy sex are a little bit more liberated with sex or have a little bit more of a masculine side. You would also fall into the category I just described. But so often when a woman's heart is full, when she's deeply in love, when she's so satisfied with the person she's with, she doesn't actually have that craving. And especially if you're having sex with the frequency that she enjoys having sex, whether it's two to three times a week or five times a week, then there really is not want or need for anything else. I'm not trying to have my cake and eat it too. When I say this, it's just fundamentally something that's true. Speaker 0 01:33:23 And I think anybody who has been in relationship long enough or been in love or really felt devoted and dedicated to the person that you're with would know this. It just can't be overstated enough that men are in fact different from women. We're very visually focused and specifically this idea of novelty, newness, and variety. It's not something that you just get over or let go, or, or that it's a maturity thing. And when you grow into a mature man, who's ready to handle a real relationship. Then magically you're able to let go of this Peter pan, like craving for different types of women or never wanting to grow up or wanting to be the alpha dog or what have you. But in fact, it sticks with us. I mean, I know people who are in their seventies and eighties and nineties who still make sexual comments, who still look at women whose heads still turn when a young 20 something girl walks by and whether that's gross to someone or not, it is biology and we are wired to be, it's not a choice. Okay. So let me get back to having orgasms and ejaculation, because watch this, do you experience depletion or an energetic loss or feeling exhausted, or do you feel like it's a mental thing because you could suddenly regain potency just by introducing a new partner, a man into the room. Speaker 1 01:34:43 I think I'm trying to say the sexual fatigue can easily be taken care of, right. In many ways. Exactly. Or we can go around it. Do you feel like Speaker 0 01:34:53 Drugs such as Trimix Cialis Viagra fall into a category of addictive substances as well? Or can you continue to enjoy these today? Speaker 1 01:35:01 Not addicted mentally or physically, it's more of a, you feel like you need them and then become everyday use. Thank God. They don't have a lot of side effects, but yes, it can become like more of a crutch that you feel you need to perform. Speaker 0 01:35:16 Now that you're on the other side of all of this, how were you able to demonstrate for yourself or show yourself that you don't need these things to be able to get hard, Speaker 1 01:35:25 Uh, math sense, stimulants stimulants in general, um, vaso constrictors, which is the opposite of what NASA dilator. Yeah. Cialis and alcohol and marijuana and all of the downers. Do they facilitate erection? So stimulants like cocaine and meth do the opposite, right? So the moment you stop doing them, your Dick will start working just fine without anything. Oh, just back to normal. That's absolutely right. Speaker 0 01:35:49 So present day, you are in recovery. You are no longer, huh? Speaker 1 01:35:55 I am no longer at home. I applied the principle in the Bible for once I was a ho and now I'm found Speaker 0 01:36:00 And you've walked through the Valley of the shadow of meth Speaker 1 01:36:07 Borderline last to me. I don't take all that time. Uh you're right. Sorry. I don't no longer identify myself with the ho as being a ho as being a ho. Right? Right. So being an ex ho, I have all the compassion, empathy, and compassion for all of the other hoes out there. And I understand the struggle and if I can, I help them. Well, that's very big of you, you know, I think I've, uh, gotten so much in my life and now it's time for me to start giving back to the community. Speaker 0 01:36:42 And in your own words, how do you see giving back to the community? Is this through real estate or Oh, Speaker 1 01:36:47 As a power tasks, but sure. Let's go there. Yeah. Speaker 0 01:36:51 Well, other than doing your part to satiate these greedy bottoms, are there any other ways that you're giving back, Speaker 1 01:36:57 Um, helping people that struggling with addiction and people that are in recovery associating with them and give them tools Speaker 0 01:37:07 In doing so. I mean, are you, that does sort of publicize your life a little bit Speaker 1 01:37:12 At some point, you, you, you know, when you are with, uh, your kind right, you can be open about what you do or you did et cetera. And what recovery is teaching you is that shame and guilt is something that you don't want to carry with you. It's incredibly heavy. It's a luggage that you don't want to carry with you your whole life. And it's very disruptive. So the moment that you learn how to let go of all that shame and guilt for, for instance, being a sex worker or for being promiscuous. So for having done drugs or all of that, and you stop judging yourself for that, considering that it's something that you used to be, but I'm no longer that person. And I can live with that. So in that moment, I'm a, a person who doesn't have to carry all that guilt and shame. And I can talk about this openly with people I trust in a safe environment like here, Speaker 0 01:38:14 You know, I see your life as sort of having different seasons. There is this a sexual period of your life, and then this extremely hyper sexual period of life. And now there's this now moment. When did you carry the most amount of guilt and shame was as a child when you were doing all of this as a sex worker, is it now reflecting back actual life Speaker 1 01:38:34 Carried the most guilt and shame when I was doing that and not being able to talk to a single living soul about that, it was part of my day. It was my job. It would take 12 hours of my day. I was proud of it. I couldn't talk to anybody about that. And that made you feel shame, uh, was projecting my own shame. I'm quite sure that my friends would have understood and would have been fine with it. I just didn't, I wasn't able to carry myself too. Um, I wasn't able to bring that fact to my own awareness because the moment I said it was true, right. When I said, Oh, I'm a sex worker. It becomes a reality. Right. Speaker 0 01:39:20 Would you change any part of your life if you could do it all over again? Speaker 1 01:39:23 Absolutely not. What they did. I chose to do. I had an amazing time. It was incredibly dangerous. It could have been dead. The rest of it. I was lucky, but also was an incredibly formative experience. I met incredible people. I've seen the most beautiful houses in the world and, uh, I've been treated like royalty and catered and taken care of. I also felt so in tune with myself and my own body for the first time in my life, I was in sync with that. I was able to be myself and sometimes, um, drugs really helped to reach the moment when you have an epiphany. You know, I think I talked to Jesus a couple of times from my point is the reason not everything is bad. You know, now the end is always bitter and dark with every addiction. But everything that happened in my life led me to share right now, talking to tare about my past. And hopefully this podcast will help other people to feel less ashamed of who they are. So, yeah, I'm happy about everything that they brought me here. Speaker 0 01:40:30 Is there anything else you'd like to get off your chest? Anything more? Speaker 1 01:40:33 We haven't said enough. I think I feel like it is enough to scandalize half of the American population, but if you have another couple of topics that would like to add while I would like to revisit when we first met and I, the reason why I didn't run off, uh, scared is that, um, I perceived you as a, not a threat sexually. Yeah. So you had your thing going on and I saw your next confident walk and you walked up to me and was straight and say, blah, blah, blah. And I felt like you're not coming onto me. And you were being straight friendly. And that was fine with me. I felt like I was safe. I didn't have to judge your motives. Speaker 0 01:41:19 Wow. Thank you. I have so much care and love for you, man. There are very few men alive on the planet who I feel that connection with. And I purposely wanted to have this conversation, our rekindling on record, because I thought that the places we could go and the things that we discuss would be really interesting and special for other people to listen to. Plus, I also think it's rare for men to share this level of intimacy and this kind of closeness with one another as friends. You know, I want to say to you without making it sound too funny is I was really fascinated by you. I had never met anyone like you before. And it was almost like, I guess I could describe it as a very non-sexual crush. I knew right away. I wanted to spend time with you and get to know you and figure out why you were the way you were. Speaker 0 01:42:03 And of course, the fact that we can make each other laugh so easily just made it all the more delightful. And even though in my universe, I was often told, Oh, I dress nicer than anyone else. I'm so clean. Cut. I put myself together. Well, you just put that to shame. When I watched you do it the way his shirt was perfectly tailored in a knowing your neck size and, and your waist size, and the fact that we can both still fit into a size such-and-such pants, you know, it's, it was very fascinating to me. And you had this very, you know, Italian flare and the perfection of your shoes and laces and all of these aesthetic things really spoke to me. But you were also able to do it with an air of what appeared to be confidence and savoir, Faire, and playfulness. And you're one of the few men, literally two men come to mind you. Speaker 0 01:42:50 And one other person who I laugh the most with, and I feel like as a man, that's very hard to come by. Girls think they make each other laugh all the time. They think each other is hysterical. Guys make girls laugh, but it's really rare that I'm in the company of another man, constantly giggling and holding. I mean, I'd probably laugh more in this episode than all of my episodes put together, you know, just trying to hold back. And it's your, like your dry sense of wit. So there's just so much I love about you and the journey you've been through is just insane to me, but I feel so lucky to have known you practically since childhood. I mean, since our very, you know, most formative years, Speaker 1 01:43:24 I think you're one of the few people that have been a constant in my life, um, for a very long time. And it's sort of like, uh, an anchored and you keep, you know, you need Constance that otherwise you sort of spinning out of control. Right? Let me ask you, what do you think when you first learned what a sex worker you first thought was that like, Oh, now it makes sense. Or it was more like, Oh, that's interesting. No, it really took me Speaker 0 01:43:52 By surprise because my first impression of you, how I know you is something so different. I mean, it didn't surprise me when I found out you were gay. That kind of cute, a couple of things for me, but the same judgements I have about that are the same things that people have about me. You know, people think I'm gay, I've got pink furniture and I've got drapery and I dress a certain way and I take care of myself and whatever the other factors are. So the same criteria that people judge me on to decide whether they think I'm gay or not is what put it together for me. When you told me you were. But yeah, the sex worker thing kind of blew me out of the water. I think you're probably the first male sex worker who I've ever spoken to. It's kind of like a rare glimpse for people. Speaker 2 01:44:38 Oh yeah. Speaker 1 01:44:41 Well, I've had my share my share of sex workers in a way or another. And they all, most of them turn out to be very normal people, right? Because they have normal lives and their families that they care for them. And they're very sweet and they tried to help each other. Speaker 0 01:44:57 Do you think it's like, anything else that it's a skill set and when you train your eye or your heart or your body or your Speaker 1 01:45:03 Touch, I think it's a quality that you have to not, you can not force yourself to be a performer. If you're shy, you can not force yourself to be a dancer if you don't have it. Yeah. I guess I was gifted. I found my gift. It wasn't my crotch, but let me ask you tare. The story think he has had, has been a Riza. Ho Speaker 2 01:45:33 What does he stand? Oh my God. Well, well, Speaker 0 01:45:38 I make very clear in my podcast that language like that. <inaudible> I mean, when we're talking about women, right? I am going to be a little philosophical here. I'll say, well, what constitutes a ho no one can say, is it one partner a week, one partner a day? Speaker 1 01:45:51 You're absolutely right. Who can, how many is too many? What determines, right? Oh yes. There should be parameters of some sort. Speaker 0 01:45:57 Well, you can say there should be, but also who gets to decide them, right? If it's someone who's religious or someone who's conservative, it's going to be very different than someone who's. Open-minded Speaker 1 01:46:07 Not to mention the dry hoes. She's would you care to expand on this? I know Speaker 2 01:46:16 If you could define it for us, that be great. Speaker 1 01:46:18 What if I must say tare, um, a dry oil. How will be somebody who is internally promiscuous, but because of necessities or maybe on the down-low married, et cetera, doesn't act on it, but he he's Speaker 0 01:46:31 That's right. So there's no parameters for Howship or hood or anything like that, or how to define it. Whoredom whoredom I think would Speaker 2 01:46:39 Be the better. Speaker 0 01:46:42 So how then could I even judge myself or judge someone else to be there? Speaker 1 01:46:47 You shouldn't, uh, for many reasons, first of all, women, those over being called hoes in a very, um, derogatory way. Absolutely. And men don't, they have a pass for that. Right? So being a gay man somehow protects you from that. But at the same time, there's the same dichotomy. If you are a top, you can sleep with as many boys as you want. If you're a bottom, you are a gritty hole or a thirsty hole. So they caught him is right. Sure. Um, not healthy in any way. Right? Speaker 0 01:47:21 Right. In the gay community, you have permission to play with these terms. They become fun and funny. Speaker 1 01:47:26 Absolutely. You have to add a bit of library and it gives you a license to just not take yourself too seriously, or judge other people. Speaker 0 01:47:33 And I find in my world, it's very interesting because it's so polarizing with women. You either have women who truly do not want to be treated poorly, be called anything, derogatory, like ho bitch sled. Any of that is extremely offensive. They would feel disrespected. And unless it's in the bedroom, Speaker 1 01:47:51 So there's not a dichotomy. Shouldn't that the way you act in the bedroom be the same, you know, Speaker 0 01:47:57 One might think, but I think there's three categories. There's the ones who completely are up in arms about it. But in the bedroom feel differently. There's ones who actually are, and this is, what's so important to you. I got to say this for everyone listening. It's like, there are people who want nothing to do with that Lang they don't want to be, um, spit on slap choked, you know, Speaker 1 01:48:17 Would fall into the emotionally constipated category. But, uh, by the way, you're welcome. Speaker 0 01:48:25 And then there's people who love it. So they got love. It really don't love it. And then a man's job, a straight man has to be able to have the sensitivity to recognize who's what now I think probably in your, where you're like everybody wants some level of that deep down. My experience is that, you know, there are obviously a subset of women who do not want to be treated that way and it triggers them, right. It might trigger trauma. It might hurt them immensely in some way, or they just feel totally disrespected. So it's an interesting journey to be a man who is expected to be dominant and assertive. And also we have to have this sensitivity to read. We always talk about the dangers of it because you don't want to harm or rape someone. You don't want to put someone in a compromised position. Speaker 0 01:49:05 Who's making them feel uncomfortable. Right. But we also never talk about the other side of that, which is if a man has learned to be so careful with what he says does and how he interacts with people, then when you come across a woman who would actually love to have that side brought out of her, that primal carnal, animalistic, delicious side, or someone who just knows she's like that to begin with. It's harder. I think for men these days to be able to tap into that and access it because they feel bound or handcuffed and feel like they can't be aggressive, dominant, or assertive in a healthy way. And I just feel like you have a ton more freedom in the gay community because it's more of a natural thing. It's totally acceptable to be that way. Speaker 1 01:49:44 Well, if I'm anything 40 of gray that taught us is that, Oh, you can do pretty much whatever you want to with a bit of, a lot of respect and, uh, progressively. So you test the waters. If you feel like both feeling the same direction, you should talk about that openly before you embark in something that can be construed as a bit different or intense in the gay community. The reason much of this, because everything is out there on the table, the moment that you start chatting or talking to a meeting or, um, whatever is the situation. Yeah. You are something before. And I think I didn't, um, I deflected not sure why, but uh, you asked what can bring a bit of a spice and, and life back to sexual life in a monogamous couple. And I think that the basis there has to be war sounds very basic, but he's, uh, a lot of respect and start listening to the other person and not going in the group that you always go right? Speaker 1 01:50:48 The role, right? Whenever you feel like she wants to have sex, you have to go in that role when you are the dominant and you have to decide the position and fall along, you, you know, try something different. Maybe give the woman a chance to lead for a few seconds. But again, the feedback is incredibly helpful. Those few seconds, when you let it lead and you see what it goes, see, you can feel from a body language, how tense she gets, if she's going with it or not. If she, if she's feeling liberated by time, she's finally free to pursue what she likes or not. So take sensitivity. Uh, some people have, uh, this quality of, of seeing it uni other people don't, but, um, even the way you introduce new things, I think there's ways that don't necessarily work, which is bringing a new piece every time like, Oh honey, I brought porn home. Speaker 1 01:51:46 She will not enjoy it. You know? Whereas if you feel like you have a very good connection sexually and emotionally with somebody, not necessarily during the sex act, maybe right after you can say something when you're cuddling, maybe next time we tried this or that, what do you think? So you're not imposing your, what you want because in our mind, of course, the moment you say, Oh, what do you think about your friend? You know, Cindy? And then of course that's a big fight, right? There is different than you say. I was thinking about trying something different. Do you have any about this or that? What do you think? So she has the final way of pursuing that or not. You give her a choice, you know, Speaker 0 01:52:30 Well said my friend and I think now's a good time to add as I did in the beginning that my friend and I have known each other for nearly 25 years. And one of my favorite things about him is his incredibly dry sense of humor so much so that it might be to know when he's kidding or not, or playing or not. But if you heard me laughing, you can rest assured that it's being said with the intention to be playful and funny behind it. So none of this is meant to be degrading and salting, cutting, or biting towards any person or any culture. And especially any person who has a preference, that's different than ours. We have an enormous amount of respect for all people. All right, my friend. So that being said, your working definition of respect, how do you show respect to others? And how do you like to have it shown to you? Speaker 1 01:53:17 I believe that if you strive to treat everybody with the same respect, no matter who they are, the social status, the homeless person on the street, the person that does the lawn, you know, carton or whatever, the situation or the CEO you're meeting for a, for a business meeting, the person you're about to engage in sexual acts in the same level of respect that you would, uh, uh, treat everybody else and human being. Ultimately, you will start showing or feeling a form of respect for yourself Speaker 0 01:53:50 And what is respect for you? Speaker 1 01:53:53 Non-judging being in a safe place where I can be myself and, um, I can stand up for what I believe and I don't feel like I have to hide anything. Good. Speaker 0 01:54:05 Well, I think that's the perfect spot for us to wind down and bring this interview to a close friend. I cannot begin to tell you how nice it's been to have you here. I hope I get to see you a lot more than once a decade. And I have a feeling that show's going to be very well received, that people are going to get a kick out of it, but also be educated from it. And maybe there'll be occasion for a part two. Thanks so much for being here. You've been a total delight. Speaker 1 01:54:26 Thank you for having me. This was really fun, but also I think we covered a lot of important issues that maybe some younger people may be struggling with. Uh, and, um, then you just gave those may get something out of it. Speaker 0 01:54:42 Yeah. I think you were able to put a voice to a lot of things that people might be feeling or going through or wondering if they are alone in, so Speaker 1 01:54:50 All of you sex workers or sex workers out there, or hoes of any kind, uh, you know, you're loved and you're welcome and, uh, have some kindness for yourself. Good. Speaker 0 01:55:03 Thank you for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of closeness immensely. If you haven't done so already, please take a moment to subscribe to us on [email protected] forward slash closeness or anywhere else. Podcasts can be found such as Spotify, Stitcher, Pandora, iHeart, YouTube, Google, and anywhere else you can [email protected] we offer non-judgemental non-biased sex, intimacy and relationship coaching for couples and singles of all persuasions. If you feel ready to take the leap immediately, you can fill out our intake form at getcloseness.com/intake. Thank you everyone for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.