Theology in the Raw
415 episodes - English - Latest episode: about 2 years ago - ★★★★★ - 1.2K ratingsOn Theology in the Raw, Preston takes a fresh look at what the Bible really says, as he challenges opinions and traditions--yes, even his own. Homosexuality, sex, porn, drinking, immigration, racial tensions, violence, ISIS, Trump, guns, patriotism, you name it. If it's of interest, you can expect Preston to address it. Think of it as theology for the rest of us. If you have any questions you'd like him to address on the show, email them to [email protected]. Hate mail and tirades will be discarded or mocked.
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Episodes
#950 - A Christian View of Immigration: Karen Gonzalez
February 28, 2022 15:34In this episode, I talk to Karen about all things related to immigration. What does the Bible say? How theologically/ethically important is it? How should the biblical story on immigration shape our current Christian imagination when it comes to current political issues about immigration? How should Christians respond to undocumented immigrants?
949 - The Gospel, New Creation, Re-reading Paul, Heaven, and American Christianity: Dr. N.T. Wright
February 24, 2022 14:00In the episode, we talk about many things related to New Testament theology including the meaning of the term “gospel,” understanding Paul’s letters in their historical and biblical context, the importance of resurrection (over the significance of “going to heaven when you die”), the meaning of “hell,” and other personal things about his spiritual and theological journey. We also talk about the polarization in American Christianity and other contemporary issues.
948 - A Complementarian Reading of the New Testament: Dr. Tom Schreiner
February 21, 2022 13:00Complementarians believe that the Bible affirms the full equality of women and men, but that God only allows men to be elders and teachers in local churches. Dr. Tom Schreiner is one of the most well known and widely published (and respected) scholars who holds to this view. In this episode, Tom sums up his position and then responds to several counterarguments I throw at him.
947 - Being Socially Engaged While Maintaining Allegiance to Christ: Dr. Vincent Bacote
February 17, 2022 14:00Dr. Vincent Bacote is an Associate Professor of Theology and the Director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics at Wheaton College in Wheaton, IL. He is the author of the The Political Disciple: A Theology of Public Life (2015), The Spirit in Public Theology: Appropriating the Legacy of Abraham Kuyper (2005), and has contributed to books including On Kuyper (2013), Aliens in the Promised Land (2013), Keep Your Head Up (2012) and Prophetic Evangelicals (2012).
#946 - A Celibate Gay Christian’s Perspective on Valentine’s Day and Belonging: Dr. Greg Coles
February 14, 2022 15:26Dr. Gregory Coles is senior research fellow at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender, and is the author of Single, Gay, Christian: A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity (IVP, 2017) and No Longer Strangers: Finding Belonging in a World of Alienation (IVP, 2021).
#945 - A Native American Perspective on Christian Nationalism: Mark Charles
February 10, 2022 16:21Mark Charles gives a different perspective about the “discovery” of America and some of the profound problems when Christians go to be with the Empire.
#944 - Parenting LGBTQ Kids
February 07, 2022 16:11Mark’s daughter came out as a lesbian over a decade ago and they’ve maintained a wonderful, loving relationship through it all. Mark has gleaned a wealth of experiential knowledge about how to love, even in the midst of theological disagreement.
#943 - Christian Nonviolence: Drs. Myles Werntz and David Cramer
February 03, 2022 14:00David and Myles recently wrote a book called A Field Guide to Christian Nonviolence and this is the topic of our conversation. We discuss a biblical case for nonviolence and some pushbacks including the conquest of Canaan. We also discuss the killer at the door, policing, nonviolent revolts, and pulling up violent systems by the roots.
942 - Marriage, masculinity, platforming, weed, alcohol, pride flags, & other questions
January 31, 2022 14:00I received a ton of questions from my Patreon supporters, many of which I answered through Patreon, but some of which I address out loud in this podcast.
941 - The Brothers Karamazov (and Other Things): Tom Velasco
January 27, 2022 14:00In this lengthy podcast, we talk a lot about Fyodor Dostoevsky’s The Brothers Karamazov including its background, characters, plot, and its philosophical and theological themes, especially the problem of evil, free, suffering, and the nature of belief. This leads to many philosophical and cultural tangents which we don’t shy away from.
940 - Being a Christian in Hollywood: Hannah Barefoot
January 24, 2022 17:21Preston talks with Hannah about what it’s like being a Christian in Hollywood. She takes us behind the scenes and discusses her raw and vulnerable perspective on God, life, acting, Hollywood, and how she understands the art of acting in light of the kingdom of God.
939 - Jesus and John Wayne: Dr. Kristin Kobes Du Mez
January 20, 2022 14:00Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation, has swatted a hornets nest and sparked all kinds of interesting and much needed conversations. In this episode, I talk to Kristin about her book and the responses it has elicited.
938 - Evangelicalism, Eroticism, Trinity, Sexuality, Suffering, and Hope: David Bennett
January 17, 2022 14:00David has recently published his first book, A War of Loves (Zondervan, 2018). It describes his own story from atheistic gay activism to becoming a follower of Jesus, in which he advocates for a positive moral vision of biblical sexuality and discipleship. His other interests include French, Latin, church history and patristics, writing, travel, cooking, reading books, and living in Christian community.
937 - The Great Sex Rescue: Sheila Wray Gregoire and Rebecca Lindenbach
January 13, 2022 15:00Sheila has written seven books including award-winning book The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex and the forthcoming The Great Sex Rescue, which she coauthored with her daughter, Rebecca Lindenbach. Both Sheila and Rebecca speak and write about a Christian view of sex, often correcting problems created by a purity culture approach to sex.
936 - Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: Aimee Byrd
January 10, 2022 15:50Aimee Byird is a speaker, author, blogger, wife, and mom. She’s the author of several books including Why Can’t We Be Friends, No Little Women, her most recent book Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, and the forthcoming The Sexual Reformation.
#935 - Semiotics, Anti-Leadership, and Doing Church from the Table: Dr. Leonard Sweet
January 06, 2022 13:30Dr Sweet unpacks what semiotics is, how we can better read the Bible by paying attention to story and symbolism, why CEO-style church leadership does not resonate with what Jesus said about leadership, and why the table should be the center of our ecclesiological rhythms.
#934 - Self Driving Cars, Elon Musk, SpaceX, and the Future of Tech: Peter McGowan
January 03, 2022 15:55In this episode, I ask Peter a bunch of questions about the future of tech, self-driving cars, neurolink, SpaceX, the future of smartphones, space travel, and related stuff. Peter is super techy and loves to keep up on where things are headed and how we can think Christianly about these things.
#932 - The Church, Intellectual Honesty, Nonviolence, and Rene Girard: Jeremy Duncan
December 30, 2021 14:53Jeremy is the founding pastor of Commons Church in Calgary, BC--a rather unique church that prioritizes intellectual honesty and the centrality of Jesus above tight-knit doctrinal statements. I found Jeremy on Twitter and was fascinated by his ecclesiology, so I invited him to come talk about it on the show. We ended up talking quite a bit about belonging, sexual ethics, polyamory, LGBTQ inclusion, and how the philosophy/theology of Rene Girard informs and shapes much of the ecclesiolog...
#931 - Sexual Abuse Scandals and Power in the Church: Dr. Russell Moore
December 27, 2021 14:00 - 80.9 MBDr. Russell Moore is Public Theologian at Christianity Today and Director of Christianity Today’s Public Theology Project. Dr. Moore is the author of several books, including The Courage to Stand: Facing Your Fear Without Losing Your Soul, Onward: Engaging the Culture without Losing the Gospel and The Storm-Tossed Family: How the Cross Reshapes the Home. A native Mississippian, he and his wife Maria are the parents of five sons. Russ has been very public about addressing the crisis of sexu...
#930 - The Scandal of Christmas, Part 4: Joey Dodson
December 23, 2021 13:52 - 67.9 MBIn this fourth and final episode in our “scandal of Christmas” series, New Testament scholar Dr. Joey Dodson walks us through parallel birth narratives in the Greco-Roman and Jewish environment of the New Testament. Reading the biblical birth narratives in these contexts helps us read the story in HD, or through a 3D lens, so that we can better understand the author’s intention in how he’s telling the story. Dr. Joseph (Joey) Dodson is associate professor of New Testament. He studied at th...
#929 - The Scandal of Christmas, Part 3: Dr. Lynn Cohick
December 20, 2021 14:00 - 57.8 MBIn this third part of our four part series, New Testament scholar Dr. Lynn Cohick walks us through the significance of women in the birth narratives. We talk a lot about Mary, Elizabeth, Jesus’s genealogy (which contains 5 women), how the appearance of women in the genealogy has been misunderstood, and we also discuss the woman at the well in John 4 and how she was not a sexually promiscuous woman. Lynn currently serves as as Provost and Dean of Academic Affairs of Northern Seminary in Lisl...
#927 - The Scandal of Christmas, Part 3: Dr. Lynn Cohick
December 20, 2021 14:00 - 57.8 MBIn this third part of our four part series, New Testament scholar Dr. Lynn Cohick walks us through the significance of women in the birth narratives. We talk a lot about Mary, Elizabeth, Jesus’s genealogy (which contains 5 women), how the appearance of women in the genealogy has been misunderstood, and we also discuss the woman at the well in John 4 and how she was not a sexually promiscuous woman. Lynn currently serves as as Provost and Dean of Academic Affairs of Northern Seminary in Lisl...
#927 - The Scandal of Christmas, Part 2: Dr. Michael Bird
December 16, 2021 14:00 - 58.6 MBWe often think of Luke 1-2 and Matthew 1-2 when we think about the Christmas story. But what about Revelation 12? Is this angle a strange, fringe way of looking at the birth of Jesus, or is a primarily lens? In this episode, Dr. Bird and I look at this less-than-familar way of reading the Christmas story. It’s an angle where the bird of a peasant-King is a battle against the socio-political powers to be, powers that are demonically influenced and stand opposed to the upside down kingdom of G...
#928 - The Scandal of Christmas, Part 2: Dr. Michael Bird
December 16, 2021 14:00 - 58.6 MBWe often think of Luke 1-2 and Matthew 1-2 when we think about the Christmas story. But what about Revelation 12? Is this angle a strange, fringe way of looking at the birth of Jesus, or is a primarily lens? In this episode, Dr. Bird and I look at this less-than-familar way of reading the Christmas story. It’s an angle where the bird of a peasant-King is a battle against the socio-political powers to be, powers that are demonically influenced and stand opposed to the upside down kingdom of G...
#927 - The Scandal of Christmas, Part 1: Dr. Craig Keener
December 13, 2021 13:00 - 59.6 MBI’ve invited 4 different New Testament scholars on the podcast to talk about the Christmas story. In this opening episode, I talk with world renown NT scholar Dr. Craig Keener about Luke 1-2, the politics and sociological scandal of Christ’s birth, his earthly vocation (as a tekton...woodworker? mason? None of the above?), the location of Christ’s birth, Matthew 1-2 (and the differences between Luke and Matthew), the problem of genealogies, and much, much more. Dr. Keener did his Ph.D. wor...
#926 - Christ and Queer Marriage: Aaron and Liz Munson
December 09, 2021 13:00 - 58.8 MBAaron is gay and so is Liz. They’ve been married for over 15 years and have had an interesting journey. Both are solid Jesus followers and have done a fantastic job helping the church engage LGBTQ related issues with truth and grace. In this podcast conversation, Liz and Aaron share their story and talk about what it’s like being in a queer marriage--a term they prefer over “mixed orientation marriage,” since their orientations aren’t really mixed. Links talked about on todays show https:/...
#925 - Power and Privilege in Paul, Mark, and White Evangelicalism: Dr. Tim Gombis
December 06, 2021 15:42 - 77.7 MBOkay, so if you’re easily offended (and white), then you might want to change the channel. Dr. Tim Gombis is a no-holds-barred honest scholar, who’s not afraid to go to the hard places and challenge the status quo. And that’s exactly what we do in this episode. We discuss the undiscussables; say the quiet things out loud, and push over sacred cows as we seek to get to know Jesus all over again. This episode is a mix of exegetical exploration and cultural analysis (or critique). Tim is a lo...
#924 - Sexual Abuse, Sexual Brokenness, and the Gospel: Jay Stringer
December 02, 2021 13:00 - 43.6 MBJay Stringer is is a therapist, author, and speaker who guides men and women to outgrow unwanted sexual behaviors. He’s the author of Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing, a book that is based on Stringer’s groundbreaking research on over 3,800 men and women addressing the key drivers of unwanted sexual behavior, be that the use of pornography, infidelity, or buying sex. If you want to find freedom from sexual brokenness, it begins by identifying the unique reasons that...
#923 - Active Listening and Thoughtful Nuance in Race Conversations: Dr. George Yancey
November 29, 2021 13:00 - 33.8 MBIn the midst of polarized conversations about race, Dr. George Yancey is a breath of fresh air. He’s a huge proponent of active listening--being genuinely curious about another another person’s perspective and getting outside your echo chamber to consider other points of view. In this podcast episode, we talk a lot about his forthcoming book: Beyond Racial Division: A Unifying Alternative to Colorblindness and Antiracism, which published by IVP (March 2022). Dr. George Yancey (PhD, Univers...
#922 - The Stability of Scandalous Adoration: Dr. Greg Coles
November 25, 2021 13:00 - 17.1 MBGreg gave a killer talk at this year’s Revoice conference. If you missed it--here it is! Here’s the blurb: What does it mean to adore Jesus in a world that sees our adoration as scandalous? Taking our cues from a few of the Bible’s most notorious worshippers, we’ll celebrate together the stabilizing power of worship — a power no one can take from us. Greg is the author of Single, Gay, Christian (InterVarsity Press, 2017) and No Longer Strangers (InterVarsity Press, 2021). He holds a PhD in ...
#921 - From Gay to Ex-Gay to Sex Worker to Affirming to Side-B Christianity: Josh Proctor
November 22, 2021 13:00 - 64 MBStrap on your seatbelts, folks. We’re going for a wild ride through Josh Proctor’s beautifully complex and honest journey. He’s been through more ex-gay therapy sessionss than anyone I’ve ever met. He then fell into sex work. He then fell into Jesus’ arms and maintained an affirming theology. And then he changed this theological view to one that holds to a traditional sexual ethic. Josh is a beautiful human being with a fascinating story! Josh serves as Director of Social Media & Spanish T...
#921 - Conversion Therapy to Sex Work to Affirming to Side-B Christianity: Josh Proctor
November 22, 2021 13:00 - 64 MBStrap on your seatbelts, folks. We’re going for a wild ride through Josh Proctor’s beautifully complex and honest journey. He’s been through more ex-gay therapy sessionss than anyone I’ve ever met. He then fell into sex work. He then fell into Jesus’ arms and maintained an affirming theology. And then he changed this theological view to one that holds to a traditional sexual ethic. Josh is a beautiful human being with a fascinating story! Josh serves as Director of Social Media & Spanish T...
#920 - Why the Church Needs LGBTQ People
November 18, 2021 13:00 - 25.8 MBThis podcast is a recording of a talk I gave at this year’s Revoice conference in Plano, TX. In it, I talk about why LGBTQ people are not just needy but needed in the church. Specifically, there are four major things I’ve learned about Jesus and the Christian way of life from my LGBTQ friends: 1) friendship, 2) marriage, 3) faithfulness, and 4) masculinity. Interested in designing the conference T-shirt for the Theology in the Raw “Exiles in Babylon Conference?” Submit your design to ch...
#919 - NT Greek, Verbal Aspect Theory, Evangelical Tribalism, and Interpreting the Bible: Dr. Constantine Campbell
November 15, 2021 13:00 - 52.2 MBConstantine Campbell's doctorate is in ancient Greek language and linguistics (Macquarie University, 2006). He was a professor of New Testament studies for 14 years, having taught at Moore College in Sydney and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Chicago. Campbell is the author of 15 books, with focus on biblical Greek, New Testament interpretation, and the apostle Paul. His book Paul and Union with Christ was the 2014 Christianity Today Book of the Year in Biblical Studies. His latest re...
#918 - When a Trans Couple both Transition Back to their Natal Sex: Cameron and Jess
November 11, 2021 13:00 - 41.6 MBCameron reached out to me a few weeks ago thanking me for my ministry and he told me a bit of his story. He’s a male to female back to male formerly trans-identified SSA Christian who has been a pastor/chaplain, and he’s married to a female to male back to female formerly trans-identified bisexual Christian. Let’s just say, I was beyond curious to hear more! This podcast episode is me “hearing more!” Interested in designing the conference T-shirt for the Theology in the Raw “Exiles in Babyl...
#917 - Redemptive Kingdom Diversity: Dr. Jarvis J. Williams
November 08, 2021 13:00 - 52.6 MBJarvis is a friend and an incredible scholar. He has written and spoken extensively on issues related to race, ethnic reconciliation, and the gospel--which is the focus of our conversation. Jarvis is Associate Professor of New Testament Interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, where he’s taught since 2013. He has published numerous books, including Christ Redeemed ‘Us’ from the Curse of the Law: A Jewish Martyrological Reading of Galatians 3:13 in the Library of New Tes...
#916 - Gay Identity, Gentile Christians, and Revoice: Misty Irons
November 04, 2021 12:00 - 46.4 MBIs it a sin to be gay? Would you attend a church that has a gay pastor? What does it mean to be gay? There is still a lot of misunderstanding surrounding the term gay and what it means to be a gay Christian. I discuss these issues at length, which leads into Misty Irons’ incredible talk she gave at this year’s Revoice Conference. Misty Irons is a graduate of Westminster Seminary California (M.A., Biblical Studies) and a member of the Presbyterian Church in America. She has maintained a blo...
#915 - Covid, Vaccines, Herd Immunity, and the End of the Pandemic: Dr. Martin Kulldorff
November 01, 2021 12:00 - 41.7 MBMartin Kulldorff was born in 1962 in Lund, Sweden. He received his Ph.D. from Cornell University and is a professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School and a biostatistician at the Brigham and Women's Hospital. He serves on scientific advisory committees to the Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control. In this podcast, we talk about the efficacy of the vaccine, the concept of herd immunity, the efficacy of natural immunity, the Great Barrington Declaration, who’s ...
#914 - Biblical Counseling, Jesus and Gender, and the Billy Graham Rule: Elyse Fitzpatrick
October 28, 2021 12:00 - 56.6 MBElyse holds a certificate in biblical counseling from CCEF (San Diego) and an M.A. in Biblical Counseling from Trinity Theological Seminary. She has authored 23 books on daily living and the Christian life including the recently released Worthy: Celebrating the Value of Women and the forthcoming Jesus and Gender. In this conversation, we talk about her (or our) journey into a fuller understanding of grace, along with her perspective on the biblical counseling movement. We then discuss vario...
#913 - Live No Lies: John Mark Comer
October 25, 2021 12:00 - 48.3 MBJohn Mark Comer is the founding pastor of Bridgetown Church, right in the center of the city (by Powell's Books if you've ever been to Portland) and is the author of six books: The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, God has a Name, Garden City, Loveology, My Name is Hope, and the recently released Live No Lies, which is the topic of our conversation. He’s also currently starting a non-profit called Practicing the Way, which aims to create resources for discipleship and formation in local churche...
#912 - Vaccines, Pandemics, and the Future of the World: Mark Sayers
October 21, 2021 12:00 - 48.6 MBYup, we go there. Vaccines. I didn’t even intend to go here, but our conversation sort of spilled over into a conversations about the efficacy of vaccines, why there’s “vaccine hesitancy,” and how the unvaccinated are potentially enabling the creation of new variants that could be more deadly. We also talk about what the advent of the Covid pandemic means for the future world. Basically, our future will look vastly different and the church will need to make some serious changes. Mark is the...
#911 - Empire and Race in the Book of Acts: Dr. Willie James Jennings
October 18, 2021 12:00 - 55 MBDr. Jennings is Associatet Professor of Systematic Theology and Africana Studies at Yale University and has written several books including The Christian Imagination: Theology and the Origins of Race (Yale 2010), which won the American Academy of Religion Award of Excellence in the Study of Religion in the Constructive-Reflective category the year after it appeared and, in 2015 and the Grawemeyer Award in Religion, the largest prize for a theological work in North America. His commentary on ...
#910 - One Christian’s Change in Perspective on Racism: Kimi Katiti
October 14, 2021 12:00 - 57.5 MBKimi is an artist, YouTuber, skater, musician, and a has been speaking out about her journey through the topic of race and racism. Kimi had absorbed a certain perspective on race that viewed many things as micro aggressions, but it created so much anxiety and depression in her life that she decided to have a more charitable and, in her words, Christian perspective on race, where forgiveness is the key to freedom and reconciliation. Learn more about Kimi: https://www.kimikatiti.com Come t...
#909 - Pastoring People through Politics, Polarization, and Pandemics: Matt Chandler
October 11, 2021 12:00 - 42.6 MBMatt Chandler is a pastor, speaker, and writer. He’s been pastoring The Village Church in Texas for 18 years and is the president of Acts29. In this podcast, we talk about how he’s handled the last couple of years of politics and Covid--and all the polarization that comes with this. Theology in the Raw Conference - Exiles in Babylon At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, transgender identi...
#908 - Disability and the Church: Dr. Lamar Hardwick
October 07, 2021 12:00 - 50.4 MBLamar has an MDiv from Emory University and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Liberty University. Over the years Lamar has served as a youth pastor, hospice chaplain, football coach, and pastor but his most important role is serving his wife of 16 years and their three beautiful children ages 11, 8, and 3. In 2014, after years of silently struggling with social anxiety and sensory processing disorder, and a host of other significant issues, Dr. Hardwick was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Diso...
#907 - How Should Christians Respond to Racism? Rasool Berry and Samuel Sey
October 04, 2021 12:00 - 86.2 MBRasool and Samuel are both Christian, black, and well-versed in the race conversation. While they agree on several things, they disagree on several others, including the definition of racism, whether racism is systemic, and the role of Scripture in addressing racism. In this dialogue, Rasool and Samuel dialogue through these questions and more. Rasool serves as the teaching pastor at The Bridge Church in Brooklyn and as a team member with Embark, a non-profit focused on millennials. He gra...
#906 - Getting to Know My New Transwoman Friend: Seda Collier
September 30, 2021 12:00 - 93.7 MBSeda Collier is a transwoman with an interesting story. She had a radical encounter with God while tripping on acid in 1980. Has had several other “God moments” throughout her life. Started transitioning to a woman in 2006. Has a wife, kids, and attends a Baptist church in Eugene, OR. We had a lot to talk about! I “met” Seda through email just a couple of weeks ago. She read my book Embodied expecting it to be like all the other evangelical books out there, and she was pleasantly taken bac...
#905 - The Gospel of Multiethnic Reconciliation: Dr. Bryan Loritts
September 27, 2021 12:00 - 39.8 MBBryan Loritts (D.Min., Liberty University) is the Teaching Pastor at The Summit Church. An award-winning author of seven books, Dr. Loritts has spent the bulk of his ministry serving and resourcing the multiethnic church. He co-founded Fellowship Memphis in 2003 and serves as the President of The Kainos Movement, an organization committed to seeing the multiethnic church become the new normal. In this podcast, we talk about the need of prioritizing a theology of race, looking to the Bible f...
#904 - Theology, Film, and the Idolatry of Marriage: Dr. Kutter Callaway
September 23, 2021 12:00 - 62.2 MBIn this episode, we talk at length about a theology of film, looking at the deeper meaning of various movies and discuss how Christians should watch movies. Oftentimes, we get hung up on the big 3 sins: sex, violence, and cussing. But what about “clean” movies that have super compelling and incredibly bad narratives--like pretty much every Disney princess movie ever made? We also talk about masculinity and the idolatry of marriage. Kutter Callaway (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is assoc...
#903 - The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill: Mike Cosper
September 21, 2021 03:10 - 51.8 MBMike is the creator and host of the uber popular podcast series: “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill,” which many people have praised and some people have critiqued. Mike and I talk about some of the concerns or pushbacks of this podcast, along with some of the things he hopes to accomplish through it. Theology in the Raw Conference - In Person or Online At the Theology in the Raw conference, we will be challenged to think like exiles about race, sexuality, gender, critical race theory, hell, t...