The NAVigator
268 episodes - English - Latest episode: 16 days ago - ★★★★★ - 5 ratingsThe NAVigator, from the Active Investment Company Alliance (AICA), talks all-weather investing and “excellence beyond indexing” through the use of closed-end funds (CEFs) & business-development companies (BDCs). AICA – a new organization that includes a diverse constituency that runs from investors through fund sponsors – aims to help investors & advisors plot a new and different course to financial success, via the tactical use of securities that mix active management within listed & non-listed structures. Subscribe now to get regular updates on everything you need to know to succeed with CEFs & BDCs.
Homepage Apple Podcasts Google Podcasts Overcast Castro Pocket Casts RSS feed
Episodes
Nuveen's Clark says Covid disrupted the stability for real estate and infrastructure
December 11, 2020 12:50 - 11 minutes - 11.2 MBJames Clark, client portfolio manager at Nuveen Asset Management, says that real assets and infrastructure investments -- normally consistent, defensive investments -- have seen those appealing characteristics under attack because of the pandemic shutdowns, but he noted that Covid-19 tended to accelerate trends that were in place rather than disrupting those movements. With the development of a vaccine,he expects pricing to firm up as uncertainty starts to melt away -- 'the worst case scenar...
Closed-end funds can be 'on sale' without being a bargain
December 04, 2020 13:10 - 10 minutes - 10.3 MBJohn Cole Scott of Closed-End Fund Advisors, the executive chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance, discusses how closed-end funds can trade at big discounts yet still not be relatively cheap, stressing the importance of keeping discounts in context. He also answers audience questions on using closed-end funds properly in a portfolio.
Think of closed-end funds as 'alternatives light' to solve yield woes
November 27, 2020 13:56 - 10 minutes - 10.4 MBJonathan Browne, director of closed-end fund research at Robinson Capital, says that investors should be looking to closed-end funds to help solve the yield challenges they face today, when low interest rates have challenged the traditional 60-40 portfolio and when bonds have performed in lock-step with the stock market. While the industry keeps developing new and different investment solutions, Browne notes that closed-end funds are a more simple half-step toward alternatives that can be ju...
Rob Shaker: Tax-loss selling should spur closed-end buying for the holidays
November 20, 2020 13:55 - 9 minutes - 9.17 MBRob Shaker, portfolio manager at Shaker Financial, says that the tax-loss selling season for closed-end funds should be particularly interesting in 2020, given the volatility funds saw throughout the year. That said, he anticipates that discounts will widen in December, making a good opportunity in closed-end issues look even better by mid-month, with the expectation of a January effect that will narrow the discounts back again in favor of investors.
Calamos' Bush: Low interest rates have helped create closed-end opportunities
November 13, 2020 12:43 - 10 minutes - 10.4 MBRobert Bush, senior vice president and director of closed-end fund products at Calamos Investments, says that the benefits of closed-end fund investing have been on display this year in the rebounding stock market coupled with the low rate environment, because that low borrowing costs have helped funds profit from using leverage. He also discusses convertible securities, where many of the closed-end funds have not kept up with the underlying securities -- convertibles are up about 20 percent...
Prosek's Schaffer says communications can sway shareholder-activism cases
November 06, 2020 12:46 - 10 minutes - 9.67 MBBrian Schaffer, managing director at Prosek Partners -- and the head of special situations for the public-relations firm -- discusses the changing face of shareholder activism for closed-end funds, and the role that communications has in helping investors measure the relative merits of any deal that pits fund management against shareholders making a move to take control.
AICA's Scott: 1 interview, 2 funds to consider, 3 questions answered
October 30, 2020 13:15 - 10 minutes - 9.91 MBJohn Cole Scott, chief investment officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and the founder and executive chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance does a quick 1-2-3 in this week's edition of The NAVigator, answering three questions from the audience and giving 2 ticker symbols worth following in one wide-ranging interview. He discusses the way discounts widen during bear markets, the expanded role closed-end funds could play in fixed-income portfolios looking for higher yields, and why...
BDC's have been in buying territory through the pandemic, says Rowe
October 23, 2020 11:39 - 9 minutes - 9.04 MBBryce Rowe, senior equity research analyst for business development companies at National Securities Corp., returns to the NAVigator to revisit business-development companies now. In his last appearance -- just days before the stock market bottomed out from its winter swoon and as the country was just entering the pandemic shutdown, Rowe said that beaten-down BDCs were a strong buy. Now, despite a solid run up along with the market, Rowe says that the bulk of business-development companies h...
Election results move the market, but don't trigger bear markets
October 16, 2020 12:40 - 8 minutes - 8.45 MBZach Jonson, chief investment officer at Stack Financial Management, says that uncertainty around the upcoming election may trigger short-term volatility, but won't trigger a significant downturn. That outcome -- if it happens -- would be the result of deeper underlying conditions, Jonson says, though he adds that key indicators are muddled and suggest mixed results lie ahead. Also on the show, Rusty Vanneman of Orion Advisor Solutions discusses how the current situation has created the prov...
David Tepper: Closed-end funds remain an investment bargain
October 16, 2020 12:40 - 8 minutes - 8.45 MBDavid Tepper of Tepper Capital Management in San Francisco explains why he uses closed-end funds almost exclusively in his client portfolios, noting that in today's market conditions there are plenty of opportunities to build a well-diversified portfolio at a discount, and adding that even long-term closed-end fund investors need to be prepared to take advantage of times when discounts narrow suddenly, creating short-term chances for bigger-than-expected gains.
ClearBridge's Vanderlee: Dividend stocks are a bargain in income-starved market
October 09, 2020 12:36 - 8 minutes - 8.61 MBPeter Vanderlee of ClearBridge Investments, co-manager of the LMP Capital and Income Fund, says that the stock market's recovery back to record-high levels hasn't made dividend stocks overpriced because much of the move has been in stocks that don't make distributions. Coupled with lower-for-longer interest rates, it makes dividend stocks the compelling buy for income-oriented investors in today's market.
UMB's Gallagher discusses the evolution of tender-offer funds
October 02, 2020 12:06 - 9 minutes - 8.93 MBTerry Gallagher, executive vice president at UMB Fund Services, sees an industry-wide trend towards the development of new interval and tender-offer funds. Gallagher -- whose firm helps investment companies launch new issues -- covers the reasons why the structures are growing in popularity, the tax implications that issuers consider when setting up a fund and more.
John Cole Scott revisits a year of The NAVigator and looks ahead
September 25, 2020 12:17 - 10 minutes - 9.07 MBJohn Cole Scott, chief investment officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and the founder/executive chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance, celebrates the end of the first year of The NAVigator podcast with a quick look back at a tumultuous 12 months for closed-end funds, but looks ahead at the industry with an eye toward how inflated by the pandemic economy are creating strong opportunities in the credit markets, in municipal bonds and beyond.
Endowment strategy in interval fund creates patient long-term view
September 18, 2020 12:21 - 10 minutes - 8.69 MBDaniel Wildermuth, chief executive officer, Wildermuth Wealth and portfolio manager of the Wildermuth Endowment Fund, says that investing like the big college endowment funds creates a long-term outlook that's heavy in private equity and other alternative asset classes, but that having that approach in an interval fund's structure forces investors to be patient and to ride out short-term market noise, which is necessary when loading up on private investments. He also provides his assessment ...
Nuveen's Lamb says that muni bonds, despite rebound, remain a good value
September 11, 2020 12:27 - 9 minutes - 7.73 MBDave Lamb, head of closed-end funds for Nuveen, says that while municipal bonds have rebounded sharply, they haven't quite kept pace with investment-grade issues or recovered to pre-pandemic levels, creating an opportunity for investors. He notes that closed-end fund investors can find bargains and don't have to worry much about being disappointed when they can buy issues at wider discounts the way they can now.
Skadden's DeCapo says SEC rules changes won't stop closed-end activism
September 04, 2020 12:25 - 10 minutes - 8.77 MBThomas DeCapo, a securities attorney with Skadden Arps who recently appeared at the AICA's Summer Summit, joined Chuck Jaffe to discuss control shares statues that critics have said will reduce activist challenges to closed-end funds. DeCapo says that the rules will protect investors, result in more closed-end funds bring brought to market and that it won't stop real activism -- where investors are looking for real change and improvement rather than boosting a price and grabbing a quick prof...
Matisse's Boughton: Closed-end funds represent a compelling value now
August 28, 2020 19:00 - 17 minutes - 14.5 MBEric Boughton, chief analyst at Matisse Capital -- a firm that manages portfolios of closed-end funds -- says that outsized discounts make most closed-end funds attractive potential investments now, noting in this interview from 'Money Life with Chuck Jaffe' that nearly every type of fund represents assets currently on sale. Still, Boughton notes that discounts by themselves are not a reason to buy, saying investors need to understand leverage and assets before taking a chance on higher-risk...
Symphony Nuveen's Holzenthaler on the disconnect between equity and credit thinking
August 21, 2020 12:05 - 10 minutes - 8.71 MBOn today's edition of the NAVigator, Lawrence Holzenthaler, investment analyst at Symphony Nuveen, discusses high-yield investing in a low-rate environment, noting that equity markets are more optimistic than the broad corporate credit market and how average credit investors see risk very differently right now when compared to the typical equity investor. Holzenthaler adds that closed-end junk-bond and floating-rate funds now are a way to 'buy discounted assets at a discount,' which should m...
Veteran writer Waggoner on why the media doesn't like closed-end funds
August 14, 2020 13:02 - 8 minutes - 7.39 MBLong-time financial journalist John Waggoner explains why he has always gravitated towards closed-end funds even as investors and the news media often ignored them, and then explains how and why closed-end funds can provide advantages that he thinks most investors miss by focusing on closed-end funds, exchange-traded funds and active ETFs.
Closed-end funds have bounced back, but have further to go, says Roseen
August 07, 2020 12:24 - 10 minutes - 8.81 MBTom Roseen, head of research services at Lipper Refinitiv, says that closed-end fund discounts currently stand at an average of 8.7 percent, significantly wider than the 5.65 percent of the past but significantly improved from February and March as closed-end funds were hammered during the pre-pandemic market downturn. Roseen notes that convertible-securities funds have been exceptionally strong during the bounce back -- up 25 percent over the last three months -- but that energy MLP funds r...
XA's Flynn talks alternative investments in new, different packaging
July 31, 2020 12:54 - 10 minutes - 9.21 MBKimberly Flynn, managing director of alternative investments at XA Investments, talks about the new and different ways alternatives are being packaged in closed-end funds and how investors and fund companies deal with discounts and new structures in order to invest in assets that otherwise wouldn't be available to individuals. She also discusses auction funds and hybrid funds, new ways to put alternatives and real estate into portfolios that are just being brought to market now, but which ha...
Alternative credit lets investors expand, diversify their fixed-income tactics
July 24, 2020 10:00 - 8 minutes - 7.55 MBGregg Bell, co-founder of A3 Financial Investments -- which runs the A3 Alternative Credit Fund -- discusses why investing in alternative credits like reverse mortgages, private credit, credit-linked notes and more can create income streams that wouldn't be available to most individual investors without the closed-end, interval fund structure. Bell -- whose fund is positive this year and up nearly 9 percent since opening in October 2019 -- says that few retail investors have exposure to the ...
Income Factory's Bavaria explains how closed-end funds are an assembly line for payouts
July 17, 2020 12:26 - 9 minutes - 8.1 MBFinancial journalist Steven Bavaria of SeekingAlpha.com -- author of 'The Income Factory: An Investor’s Guide to Consistent Lifetime Returns" -- talks about how current market conditions should have investors looking to closed-end funds as a way of generating consistent income streams. Bavaria compares closed-end funds to factories, where the company owners are more concerned with the production they get from the workshop rather than the moment-by-moment value of the building. He notes that ...
Where closed-end funds stand after a strong-but-volatile 2nd quarter
July 10, 2020 11:57 - 9 minutes - 8.46 MBJohn Cole Scott, chief investment officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and the founding chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance, returns to the NAVigator for a fresh look at where closed-end funds stand now. It was a big rebound for CEF issues in the second quarter, with strong gains despite facing an environment of heavy dividend cuts; while closed-end issues remain down on average for the year, Scott notes that wider discounts make them particularly attractive at this point, espe...
Rareview's Azous: Muni bonds represent unique opportunity now
July 02, 2020 13:18 - 11 minutes - 9.78 MBNeil Azous, chief investment officer at Rareview Capital in Stamford, Conn., discussed how the four ways that investors typically make money in municipal-bond closed-end funds typically aren't all in favor at the same time. These times, however, are anything but typical, and Azous says that in the current unusual times, all four potential return streams are lining up in ways that make muni funds a particularly attractive option right now.
Brookfield's Antonatos: Real assets offer diversification, balance in tough times
June 26, 2020 12:20 - 10 minutes - 8.89 MBLarry Antonatos, managing director / portfolio manager at Brookfield Asset Management, says 'the depths of uncertainty and the market lows surrounding coronavirus are behind us.' The manager of Brookfield Real Assets Income Fund, said the firm's real asset managers are positioning now for a recover -- which he noted may not be particularly strong -- by focusing on areas where valuations are most attractive and recovery-driven cash-flow growth should be strongest. That means hotels, retail re...
Griffin's Forman: Interval fund structure has benefits in turbulent markets
June 19, 2020 12:27 - 11 minutes - 9.72 MBZach Forman, head of fund relations at Griffin Capital Securities -- which runs the Griffin Institutional Access Real Estate Fund -- says that the illiquidity of interval funds can be a real benefit to investors during turbulent times, not only by providing access to private markets that many investors couldn't access otherwise, but by giving managers the ability to run a fund without fearing withdrawals while forcing investors into longer-term thinking.
Bancroft's Spatacco: Closed-end funds are now attractive right out of the box
June 12, 2020 12:48 - 9 minutes - 8.32 MBMichael Spatacco, director at Bancroft Capital, says that closed-end funds were an overlooked investment type for years, largely because the structure used for selling new issues put investors at a disadvantage. With that negative now mostly gone, however, he believes closed-end funds can be a particularly effective investment tool, and that new issues no longer need to be avoided when they open. He also explains how his firm incorporates closed-end fund investing into its mission of helping...
Goldstein says new SEC ruling puts a chill on shareholder activism
June 05, 2020 12:31 - 10 minutes - 8.95 MBPhillip Goldstein, co-founder of Bulldog Investors and a leading activist investor in closed-end funds, discusses a recent Securities and Exchange Commission decision that he says protects the fund operators at the expense of shareholders, and which he believes will widen discounts and make closed-end funds less attractive in the future.
'The most buyer-friendly market we have seen since the Great Recession'
May 29, 2020 12:22 - 8 minutes - 7.47 MBAndrew Kerai, senior credit strategist at RiverNorth Capital Management, portfolio manager for RiverNorth Specialty Finance Corp., says that the difficult market has created strong opportunities for increasing the credit quality in bond portfolios, noting that the fixed-income space currently represents a buyer-friendly opportunity unlike anything seen since the Financial Crisis of 2008. He explains how he has re-positioned the portfolio to take advantage of those conditions, and when he exp...
DLDeals.com's Thompson talks about the pain - and recovery - ahead for BDCs
May 22, 2020 12:57 - 9 minutes - 8.17 MBKelly Thompson, founder and editor at Direct Lending Deals, says that business development companies specializing in middle-market lending are facing the pain of some defaults and the potential for restructurings, but she believes that the problems ultimately will make for buying opportunities and better conditions for BDC managers. While waiting for those calmer, surer times, Thompson suggests sticking with older, more-established BDCs, particularly those that rode out the financial crisis ...
Matt Freund, co-manager of Calamos Long-Short Equity & Dynamic Income
May 15, 2020 12:45 - 9 minutes - 8.3 MBMatt Freund, co-manager of Calamos Long-Short Equity & Dynamic Income. says that while interest rates have been positioned lower-for-longer by the Fed, there are still ways to diversify bond holdings to generate income. In addition, he discussed how the fund has been able to tactically navigate the volatile pandemic-impacted market to bounce back sharply from when the market bottomed out.
Despite liquidity concerns, non-listed interval funds can be an attractive choice
May 08, 2020 12:50 - 9 minutes - 8.13 MBJohn Cole Scott, chief investment officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and the founder of the Active Investment Company Alliance, returns to the NAVigator to compare traits, characteristics and results of closed-end funds with non-listed interval funds offered by the same management company. The analysis -- which you can request by writing to [email protected] -- shows that while interval funds raise some liquidity concerns, they also can create a performance edge in certain market...
Nuveen's Meyers explains leverage in closed-end funds in the virus economy
May 01, 2020 11:06 - 12 minutes - 10.2 MBBill Meyers, head of the closed-end business development group at Nuveen Inc., discusses how leverage works in closed-end funds and the types of leverage and rules governing it because leveraged funds -- and their potential to blow up fast when facing trouble -- could scare off nervous investors during volatile times.
Aberdeen Standard's McCabe: First nation to re-open its economy only gains a mild edge
April 24, 2020 11:07 - 12 minutes - 10.2 MBAdam McCabe, head of fixed income for Asia and Australia for Aberdeen Standard Investments, said in an interview from Singapore that the countries on the leading edge of the viral economy -- the ones who can awaken from global hibernation first -- will have a mild advantage over nations that quarantine longer, but they won't have all of their trading partners and won't gain any long-lasting benefit. Even when economies have re-started globally, McCabe says recovery likely will be slow as inv...
EY's Eisenberger: 'Fair-value pricing' has been hard amid the virus economy
April 17, 2020 12:02 - 10 minutes - 9.1 MBNicole Eisenberger, a partner at Ernst and Young, says that the economic shutdown has created conditions making fair-value pricing of illiquid securities and assets difficult and inconsistent, raising uncertainty for investors in business-development companies. Once the first quarter of 2020 ended, firms had more guidelines for using pricing models without tanking their assets, but Eisenberger discusses how the pricing systems work, how it impacts volatility and what BDC investors should exp...
CEF Advisors' Scott: Discounts have narrowed but bargains remain
April 10, 2020 11:27 - 11 minutes - 9.55 MBJohn Cole Scott, chief investment officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and the executive chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance, says that while discounts have narrowed as the stock market has rebounded from its March lows, many closed-end funds and business-development companies remain attractive, with prices well below historic norms. He offers four closed-end funds and one BDC to consider as attractive examples now.
Angel Oak's Pate: Community banking sector is better prepared than most for pandemic
April 03, 2020 11:53 - 10 minutes - 8.77 MBCheryl Pate, portfolio manager for Angel Oak Capital, says that the community banking sector is better positioned than most to ride out current market conditions, noting that it has better fundamentals, capital ratios, liquidity and credit quality compared to the last bull market in 2008. While lower rates and a flatter yield curve can be negatives, Pate explains how the leverage she has in managing her closed-end funds is helping to position the issues to weather the market storm quickly.
MatisseCap's Boughton: Discounts are at record levels, buys are everywhere
March 31, 2020 11:31 - 22 minutes - 18.3 MBIn this bonus edition of The NAVigator, Eric Boughton, portfolio manager at Matisse Capital discusses how the current market turmoil has pushed discounts to levels even greater than seen in the financial crisis of 2008, and while he expects some dividend cuts, he does not think any distribution reductions should discourage investors. 'Nearly everything is a buy,' Boughton says, though he notes that investors will need a strong stomach for risk to consider the hardest-hit areas of the market.
Shaker: Don't trade closed-end funds on days when the market is in turmoil
March 27, 2020 10:41 - 10 minutes - 9.05 MBRob Shaker, portfolio manager at Shaker Financial, says that the current market has been hard on closed-end funds because closed-end instruments suffer any time there is fear-based selling. He warns against trading any time CNBC carries a graphic saying 'Markets in turmoil.' Yet, he adds, troubling times also make closed-end funds compelling values, so long-term investors want to be prepared to step in once they are comfortable that the market has stabilized, and he talks about whether that ...
BDC dividends are eye-popping and might be cut, but are worth looking at
March 20, 2020 10:00 - 10 minutes - 8.61 MBBryce Rowe, senior equity research analyst for business development companies at National Securities, says that the current market turmoil has dropped prices -- expanding discounts -- while jacking up yields to massive levels, in some cases with payouts now set to be north of 30 percent. While he expects BDCs to dramatically trim those enormous distributions, he suggests that the compelling values and strong payouts -- which could stay near 10 percent even after cutbacks -- make it a good ti...
As discounts grow and yields rise, closed-end funds look good amid market turmoil
March 13, 2020 20:21 - 10 minutes - 8.81 MBJohn Cole Scott, chief executive officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and executive chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance discusses the state of closed-end funds in the middle of the stock market's current meltdown. He notes that discounts have grown wider since the market stepped back from all-time highs in February, notes that yields have become even more attractive, urges caution in the use of leveraged funds, and offers a few attractive options for today's tough conditions
Roosevelt's Konrad talks closed-end fund's value-investing edge
February 28, 2020 13:34 - 12 minutes - 10.2 MBRick Konrad, director of value strategies at The Roosevelt Investment Group says that closed-end funds have some natural advnatages over traditional mutual funds and ETFs when it comes to investing with a value bent, and while he uses all of the various types of investments, he makes a case for how and why an investor might want to pay up -- in terms of expense ratios and portfolio costs -- for closed-end funds and business-development companies because it can pay off in superior long-term r...
Muni bonds and preferred stocks are key closed-end income picks
February 21, 2020 11:40 - 9 minutes - 7.57 MBJohn Cole Scott, chief investment officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and executive chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance, joins the podcast today to talk about a very popular type of closed-end asset -- municipal bonds -- and one that has been trending, but which has just 13 closed-end options, preferred stocks. Scott covers key investment considerations for each asset class, noting that muni bonds are a particularly popular yield choice for investors today, while pointing out ...
Convertible securities play multiple roles in portfolios and closed-end funds
February 14, 2020 11:30 - 10 minutes - 8.8 MBTony Huang, associate portfolio manager for the Advent Convertible and Income Fund, discusses the compelling reasons to add convertible securities -- a hybrid security that can act like either a stock or bond -- to a stock portfolio, noting that the flexibility of the security helps to mitigate risk, especially in volatile times. Huang talks about how different fund managers and individuals evaluate and purchase convertibles, whether convertibles are an asset class unto themselves or a refle...
Return of capital isn't always the bad sign investors believe it to be
February 07, 2020 12:43 - 9 minutes - 7.66 MBJohn Yesford, analyst at High Dividend Opportunities, comes to the NAVigator to help explain 'return of capital,' which many investors worry about as a warning sign that a closed-end fund is struggling or headed for trouble. Yesford explains that, with the right conditions, a return of capital doesn't diminish a good opportunity and talks about what investors should look for and consider to find those situations.
Let's hunt unicorns with management of the Sharespost 100 Fund
January 31, 2020 12:39 - 10 minutes - 8.94 MBThe NAVigator looks at a unique offering today as Christian Munafo of SP Investment Management discusses his firm's Sharespost 100 Fund, an actively managed, continuously offered, closed-end interval fund that buys late-stage venture-backed private companies, a part of the alternative-investment world normally reserved for high net worth individuals and venture capital firms. Munafo discusses how the fund looks for unicorns, the unusual company that can move from start-up to billion-dollar p...
Closed-end funds can be their own asset class for delivering income
January 24, 2020 11:43 - 9 minutes - 7.82 MBMitch Reiner, chief operating officer at Capital Investment Advisers, says he considers closed-end funds one of six key asset classes for delivering income in an investment portfolio, and while he acknowledged that his view is unique because closed-end issues can hold any type of asset within them, he said the discount structure makes them unique and therefore a necessary element for strategies where income is the primary focus.
John Cole Scott answers questions on closed-end fund basics
January 17, 2020 11:54 - 10 minutes - 8.59 MBAudience members have questions, and John Cole Scott has answers. The chief investment officer at Closed-End Fund Advisors and executive chairman of the Active Investment Company Alliance answers three queries from audience members this week, one on closed-end basics, one from an investor trying to make sure he has the right fit before making his first closed-end fund purchase, and one about the ongoing and future content content of this podcast.
Aberdeen's Pittard: US closed-end opportunities are growing and changing
January 10, 2020 14:13 - 10 minutes - 8.91 MBChristian Pittard, group head of product opportunities for Aberdeen Asset Management, says that changing structures have made initial-public offerings in closed-end funds more attractive, and were responsible for a big increase in IPO activity in America in 2019 that he expects to continue. Aberdeen continues to expand its presence not only through IPOs but acquisition, and Pittard said he expects the company to keep looking for the chance to bring unique institutional strategies to retail i...