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The Thoughtful Travel Podcast

362 episodes - English - Latest episode: about 1 month ago - ★★★★★ - 55 ratings

The Thoughtful Travel Podcast with Amanda Kendle is a show for travel lovers. Each episode is packed with travel stories from fellow travel addicts on topics like using foreign languages, meeting the locals, getting lost and what we learn from our travels.

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Episodes

154 - Dancing on Your Travels

September 23, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.1 MB

Taking a dancing class when I'm travelling or specifically taking a trip to learn to dance is not something that I've ever done - but hearing about all the fun that my guests on Episode 154 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast have had makes me begin to wonder if it might be in my future! I start off chatting to Clare who has had several tango-related holidays. Clare describes her tango trips to Spain and Argentina and we also chat about how that interacts with learning and practising a language...

153 Reading Books to Inspire Travel

September 09, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.5 MB

It seems that the number of people who love to travel AND who love to read makes up quite a high proportion of my listeners so I'm excited that Episode 153 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast can be all about reading books to inspire travel. I'm constantly reading books because they're set somewhere I'm about to visit, or alternatively I've booked a number of trips because of places I've read about in books! For me, they are completely intertwined - and the guests on this episode seem to feel ...

153 - Reading Books to Inspire Travel

September 09, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.5 MB

It seems that the number of people who love to travel AND who love to read makes up quite a high proportion of my listeners so I'm excited that Episode 153 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast can be all about reading books to inspire travel. I'm constantly reading books because they're set somewhere I'm about to visit, or alternatively I've booked a number of trips because of places I've read about in books! For me, they are completely intertwined - and the guests on this episode seem to feel t...

152 - Transformative Travel

September 02, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.3 MB

Because travel has changed my life in so many varied ways, I know that it's transformative; when I talk to three other people who believe this, like for this Episode 152 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, I'm even more sure about how transformative travel can be. If you're able to rearrange your budget to get travelling then go and do it! In this episode I start off speaking with Dean O'Shea who runs a business devising trips for mostly corporate professionals with the hope that they'll be tr...

152 Transformative Travel

September 02, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.3 MB

Because travel has changed my life in so many varied ways, I know that it's transformative; when I talk to three other people who believe this, like for this Episode 152 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, I'm even more sure about how transformative travel can be. If you're able to rearrange your budget to get travelling then go and do it! In this episode I start off speaking with Dean O'Shea who runs a business devising trips for mostly corporate professionals with the hope that they'll be t...

151 Scuba Diving Travel

August 26, 2019 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.3 MB

Scuba travel has never been high on my wishlist but after talking to my three guests on Episode 151 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast about their diving trips all around the world, I'm beginning to think otherwise! Scuba diving holidays are special - and my first guest Ella Loeffler should know as in the short few years since she first learnt scuba diving, she's tried it out in quite a number of places around the world. Liveaboard diving sounds especially good to me - kind of like a separate...

151 - Scuba Diving Travel

August 26, 2019 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.3 MB

Scuba travel has never been high on my wishlist but after talking to my three guests on Episode 151 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast about their diving trips all around the world, I'm beginning to think otherwise! Scuba diving holidays are special - and my first guest Ella Loeffler should know as in the short few years since she first learnt scuba diving, she's tried it out in quite a number of places around the world. Liveaboard diving sounds especially good to me - kind of like a separate ...

150 - Post-Denmark Thoughtful Travel Debrief

August 19, 2019 22:01 - 22 minutes - 21 MB

Before I travelled to Denmark a couple of months back, I recorded Episode 140 with all my thoughts ahead of that trip. In particular, I wanted to be a more intentionally thoughtful traveller on that trip and in this special Episode 150 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I'm following up on how that all went. It turns out - quick spoiler - that being more intentional really helped me to have an even better experience in Copenhagen and rural Denmark. But you'll have to listen to the podcast to f...

150 Post-Denmark Thoughtful Travel Debrief

August 19, 2019 22:01 - 22 minutes - 21 MB

Before I travelled to Denmark a couple of months back, I recorded Episode 140 with all my thoughts ahead of that trip. In particular, I wanted to be a more intentionally thoughtful traveller on that trip and in this special Episode 150 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I'm following up on how that all went. It turns out - quick spoiler - that being more intentional really helped me to have an even better experience in Copenhagen and rural Denmark. But you'll have to listen to the podcast to ...

149 - Class and Privilege When We Travel

July 29, 2019 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.5 MB

We who get to travel the world are a very privileged lot - right? If we're going to be good, thoughtful travellers, I think that considering issues of class and privilege when we travel is an important part of it. In Episode 149 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, I talk with three guests who articulate some really interesting thoughts on this topic and I'm so pleased to bring them to you, and hope they give everyone some food for thought. First up, I speak with Ella Loeffler, a recently grad...

148 - Solo Travelling

July 22, 2019 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23 MB

Solo travelling is one of those things that you might fear before you try it: but if you take the plunge you will find that the life of a solo traveller is insanely rewarding. In Episode 148 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I talk to three people who have done a lot of solo travel in all kinds of parts of the world and they all agree that including some solo travelling in the mix is absolutely worthwhile. My first guest is Alastair Humphreys who has done some very adventurous solo travel an...

147 - Ten Years a Nomad with Nomadic Matt Kepnes

July 15, 2019 22:01 - 36 minutes - 33.7 MB

One of the most well-known (and successful, for that matter) travel bloggers around is Matt Kepnes, also known as Nomadic Matt. Here's the thing. I actually started blogging a couple of years before Matt, and we got to know each other while freelancing for some of the same travel sites back in the day - but he's the one who went on to turn his travel blog into a very successful full-time career. I want to be jealous, but whenever I encounter Matt I'm reminded that he's just a really nice guy...

146 - Travelling in Iran

July 08, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.6 MB

It's not all too many years ago that I would have thought Iran was definitely off the visit list, but in recent years it has become quite a popular destination amongst travellers I know. Episode 146 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is, in fact, devoted fully to Iran because I've had so many guests tell me about their good experiences there that I just had to create an entire episode to be able to share some of their stories. First up I chat with Brett Seychell of Social Cycles who first vis...

145 - Volunteering Experiences While Travelling

July 01, 2019 22:01 - 26 minutes - 24.5 MB

It's becoming increasingly popular to make volunteering a part of a trip abroad, but it's also becoming increasingly known that not all volunteer programs are created equal. It's sometimes hard to be sure if you're helping or hindering, and difficult to be sure you're helping to create lasting change.  In Episode 145 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I chat with three travellers who've taken part in various volunteer programs in recent years. We talk about how to find a good volunteer progra...

144 - Grief, Travel and Change

June 24, 2019 22:01 - 23 minutes - 21.4 MB

Travel and life intersect in all kinds of ways and Episode 144 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is a collection of stories about when grief intersects with travel. I'm so grateful to all the guests for sharing these pretty personal stories, because I know they will be interesting and even useful for many who listen. First up I speak with Justin Watson who shares a story of a very special trip to the United States with a good friend; then Dean O'Shea talks about an important trip he took his...

143 - Helpful or Harmful Travel with Jan Fran

June 17, 2019 22:01 - 30 minutes - 27.7 MB

So are you a helpful traveller or a harmful traveller when you're on the road? I think we'd all like to think we're more the former, but there's always more we can do. For this episode of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I have a very special guest, Aussie broadcaster and journalist Jan Fran, who recently went overseas with adventure apparel brand Kathmandu to find out firsthand from the locals what's happening in our travel hotspots and how we can do better. They’ve produced three videos calle...

142 - Why Getting Lost is Fun

June 10, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.1 MB

We often fear getting lost when we travel ... but in reality, it usually either means we discover something we otherwise wouldn't have, and/or it becomes a funny story we repeat regularly later on! In Episode 142 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I chat with three travellers who all believe that getting lost is fun (or at least it is most of the time!). First up, Lucas Peters explains his strategy of getting deliberately lost - it's more sensible than it sounds, I promise! Next up I chat wi...

141 - Immersing with Locals When You Travel

June 03, 2019 22:01 - 28 minutes - 26.6 MB

If you don't get to really meet the people of a country, have you really been there? Some of my first significant travel moments involved a lot of immersion with local people - from a school language trip aged 14, staying with three different families across Germany without a fellow Aussie friend in the home with me, to living and teaching English in Japan, meeting dozens of new Japanese people every day. I guess that's meant I learnt fast just how much more you can learn about a place when...

140 - Being a Thoughtful Traveller in Denmark: Pre-Trip Thoughts

May 21, 2019 04:01 - 25 minutes - 23.8 MB

It's a special episode again - every ten episodes I do something different for The Thoughtful Travel Podcast - and listener Justin suggested I record my thoughts about my trip to Denmark with my son and how this trip would challenge us to be thoughtful travellers. I liked this suggestion a lot so this is a solo episode with my pre-trip thoughts about visiting Denmark with my son; what made me decide to go, what I hope to find, and all of the thoughts I've had ahead of the trip. As always I'...

139 - Culture Shock When You Come Home

May 14, 2019 04:45 - 29 minutes - 26.8 MB

We're used to expecting culture shock when we travel to a different country but what about when we return home? Sometimes it's a worse shock than when we travel, and we're not always prepared for it. This kind of reverse culture shock, or culture shock when you come home, is something my guests in Episode 139 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast have all experienced. First up I chat with Talon Windwalker who like me lived abroad for about six years. After two years at home he's still having tro...

138 - Accommodation Alternatives

May 06, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.4 MB

Want to stay somewhere other than a hotel? Then Episode 138 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is for you! I'm not a huge fan of hotels and love to stay in alternative kinds of accommodation, so I was excited to chat to my three guests in this episode about some of their favourite kinds of non-hotel accommodation. I start off with a chat with Dan Johnston who has been living in a bunch of different places around the world in recent years. Being focused on generally longer stays than the avera...

137 - Depression and Travel

April 29, 2019 22:01 - 34 minutes - 31.9 MB

If you experience depression, you may have combined this with travel and either found it made things worse, or better. I would love to imagine that travel could cure depression, but from the chats I had with three different people for this episode, it seems (unsurprisingly, really) that experiences of depression and travel vary as much as people vary. First up today I chat with Justin Watson, who has actually found that travel has been quite helpful in managing his issues with depression. W...

136 - Photography for Travellers

April 21, 2019 22:01 - 28 minutes - 26.4 MB

Everyone takes tonnes of photos when they travel these days - hundreds from a short trip is not unusual, thanks to bringing our smartphones complete with cameras these days, or because we're taking lots of shots to try and get an Instagram-worthy one! In Episode 136 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, I talk with three photographers about a bunch of different thoughts about taking photos when we travel, along with some very handy tips. First up, I chat with Seng Mah, who works as a photograph...

135 - Nightlife on Your Travels

April 15, 2019 22:01 - 24 minutes - 22.7 MB

Ever painted the town red one night on your travels? Episode 135 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is all about the nightlife you've experienced on your travels - whether you hit a nightclub or bar or, my personal favourite, a karaoke box in Japan! Along the way through these discussions my guests and I discovered that exploring the nightlife is also a fascinating study in cultural differences. My first guest today is Whitney Taylor who experienced an Indian nightclub in Agra, and certainly ...

134 - Location Independent Work

April 07, 2019 22:01 - 29 minutes - 27.3 MB

Having location independent work - which usually means doing a job that you can do online - is becoming increasingly popular these days and many people are wandering the globe at the same time as they're earning an income. Magic, hey? In Episode 134 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast we look at the topic of location independent work and I chat with two digital nomads about their current experiences and tips. Firstly I chat with Kim Yuhl who's over a year into working on the road with her husb...

133 - The Big Trips That Changed Everything

April 01, 2019 22:01 - 28 minutes - 25.8 MB

Sometimes, the things we learn from travel creep up on us in a cumulative way. Other times, one trip teaches us so much and just whacks us in the head and makes us change something significant about our lives! And this episode of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is definitely about the latter situation. First up I talk to Dean O'Shea who took off on a huge challenge to hike the Pacific Crest Trail in California when he was 22 - and he chose it purely because it was the longest, hardest journey...

132 - Third Anniversary of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast

March 25, 2019 22:01 - 28 minutes - 25.7 MB

It's my birthday! Well, yesterday was my birthday, which means this week is the THIRD anniversary of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast. That's three years of the chance to chat with awesome, like-minded, travel-loving people from all around the world, and to share the results with a fabulous audience who challenge me with their interesting questions and share their amazing travel experiences with me. In this special third anniversary episode I answer questions from listeners (via the Thoughtfu...

131 - Why You Should Take Your Children Travelling

March 17, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.1 MB

I'm an incredibly firm believer in the value of taking your children travelling, and my own son, about to turn nine, has already been to 17 countries with me, on a real variety of kinds of trips - and it's been pivotal in how he's developed as a wonderful little human so far. The guests on Episode 131 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast all agree with me on this! First up, I chat with Talon Windwalker, who travelled for six years with his child from the age of nine and could see so many benefi...

130 - Brooke McAlary on Slow Family Travel and Nomadic Life

March 11, 2019 22:01 - 53 minutes - 49.2 MB

Episode 130 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast - being a nice round number - is another very special episode, where I chat with Brooke McAlary, a very like-minded traveller, book author and podcaster, and a very important friend of the podcast! Brooke and her family have spent the last year slow travelling around North America (with a little faster travel during Brooke's book tour for her book "Slow" ... ironically!). Packing up life in Australia and heading far north for an extended time was...

129 - Travel in Developing Countries

March 04, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25.6 MB

For me, some of the most interesting travel I've done has been the more challenging travel, and that's often when I've travelled to developing or poorer countries. The culture shock is greater, and where there's culture shock, there's learning! - although of course, I always also am reminded that wherever you go, the common denominator is people, and people are really the same across the world. Just the same, travelling in developing countries leads to some really impactful and interesting ...

128 - Travel Planning and Research

February 25, 2019 22:01 - 24 minutes - 22.3 MB

Hands up if you like the planning and research part of travel almost as much - or maybe even more - than the actual travelling itself! Some of the guests on Episode 128 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast would freely admit they have something of an obsession with the planning side of travel and you can learn a lot from listening to them, I think (or, like me, you may just giggle!). First up I chat with two spreadsheet-obsessed accountants, Narelle and Shauna, who have a lot in common when it ...

127 - Yoga and Meditation Travel

February 18, 2019 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.4 MB

Ever been on a yoga retreat in an exotic destination or considered a meditation vacation? On Episode 127 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast we are talking yoga and meditation travel - where's a good place to go for a yoga holiday, what are the benefits of spending some of your travel time meditating, and much more! My first guest is Meagan Hurst who is my total go-to-gal for all things yoga - and she comes through with some great discussion of yoga teacher training in Nicaragua and also the i...

126 - Language Difficulties When You Travel

February 11, 2019 22:01 - 29 minutes - 27.2 MB

Some people feel that language difficulties can be a reason not to travel, but trying to get by in a country where I don't speak the language is actually one of the (many) reasons I love travelling - the challenge and the fun of it are wonderful and mind-broadening! In Episode 126 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, we cover some of the many difficulties that can arise when there's a language barrier on your travels, along with confessing to some of the funnier language moments my guests, my ...

125 - Spending Years Abroad

February 04, 2019 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.6 MB

Do you dream about spending years living abroad? I've done it, and so have all my guests today, and we are all here to tell you that if you ever get the chance to try - grab it!  Living in another country is a very special experience and quite different from just taking a trip somewhere. And if you can live in several other countries (or more!) like the first guest in this episode, Kelly Dunning, then so much the better. When I spoke to Kelly last year she was living in Tbilisi in Georgia, ...

124 - Hiking When You Travel

January 28, 2019 22:01 - 26 minutes - 24.7 MB

You know I love slow travel and if you're travelling on foot that's one of the slowest forms of travel there is - hence my love for the topic of hiking, which is what this episode of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is all about! I start off the episode talking with highly experienced hiker Greg Seymour, who has through-hiked the Appalachian Trail (amongst other hiking experiences) and we chat about some of the wonderful benefits of being out there in nature. Next I talk with Eva Westerling w...

123 - Exploring Cultural Differences

January 21, 2019 22:01 - 24 minutes - 22.3 MB

Getting to know the cultural differences between different countries and nationalalities is one of the most fascinating parts of travelling, I think. In Episode 123 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I chat with three travellers who've experienced cultural differences in countries like China, South Korea and Spain, and I learn a whole lot in the process! First up, I talk with Jacky Lamenzo who spent a year teaching in China with another American friend. They discovered all sorts of interestin...

122 - Talking to Locals When We Travel

January 14, 2019 22:01 - 27 minutes - 25 MB

Easily one of my favourite and most rewarding things to do when I travel is find the chance to talk to locals. I don't want to just see the sights: I want to know what it's like to live there! Especially after living in three different countries to my own (and each quite different from the other), I'm utterly fascinated by local customs, thoughts and ways of life and so Episode 122 is all about talking to locals when you travel. The first guest is Eva Westerling, who recently went on a long...

121 - Travelling in Cold Places

January 07, 2019 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23 MB

Travelling in cold places is absolutely not my speciality - so Episode 121 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is a useful one for me personally! I chat with three travellers about their experiences in cold places like Iceland, Finland and Canada; the result is a good reminder that I shouldn't ignore a destination just because the temperatures are low! First up I chat to Lucas Peters who recently took a trip to Iceland. Now, Iceland will always be one of my favourite destinations, but it defin...

120 - 2018 in Review: Travel Fun and Podcast Fun

December 03, 2018 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.3 MB

This year has been nuts! In a good way, thankfully. Episode 120 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is a fun summary of 2018 both in terms of my travel, everything I've learnt from that travel, everything I've learnt from all of you amazing listeners, and what the podcast has done this year. Listen in and you'll hear about what looking back on travel in Japan, Fiji, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam has taught me - and find out the odd combination of destinations I have ready to head to in 2019. ...

119 - Life-Altering Travel Moments

November 27, 2018 13:05 - 22 minutes - 20.9 MB

Travel can be utterly life-altering in so many ways and this episode's three guests have brilliant stories to illustrate exactly that!  First I speak with Natascha Mirosch, with her story about a trip to a Greek Island which resulted in a completely life-changing event ... though you'll have to listen to find out what, no spoilers here! I then chat to Talon Windwalker, who brought tears to my eyes telling the story of spending six years travelling with his adopted daughter and the bonds th...

118 - Ecotourism and Responsible Travel

November 19, 2018 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.5 MB

They might be buzz words at the moment, but ecotourism and responsible travel are nonetheless super-important and that's why Episode 118 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast is all about how to travel without causing any harm (and maybe even doing some good).  First up, I chat with my lovely friend Meagan of Malas With A Mission, who is one of my favourite people to talk to about the issue of responsible travel. She has a great attitude to it and is able to educate people about issues like ecot...

117 - Taking a Class When You Travel

November 12, 2018 22:01 - 23 minutes - 21.6 MB

Learning should never stop just because you're not at school and in Episode 117 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast we talk about taking classes when you travel - because of just countless benefits that come with them! First up I chat with Tiana Templeman who is a bit of a pro at finding a class whenever she travels, regardless of the topic. She thinks it's a fantastic way to get a different experience on a trip and chats about classes she's taken in Australia, Bangkok and Japan. I then talk ...

116 - Choosing Your Next Destination

November 05, 2018 22:01 - 26 minutes - 24 MB

How do you choose your next destination? In Episode 116 I chat with four travellers about the different ways they decide where they're going to travel next and between them we discover a multitude of reasons people choose their destinations - and there are no doubt still more! First up I chat with Tamara Gruber who takes some trips alone with her school-aged daughter and is clever at tying in some of their destinations to connect up with what her daughter's been learning at school (I love t...

115 - Travelling in Muslim Countries

October 30, 2018 06:27 - 25 minutes - 23.3 MB

I’m always fascinated by cultural differences and if you’re travelling in Muslim countries there can be quite a lot of customs that are different to my home country of Australia. In Episode 115 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, I’m bringing together stories of travelling in various Muslim countries from three guests who’ve all had interesting experiences. First up, I talk again with Eva Westerling, who talks about experiences she’s had in three different places - Zanzibar, Morocco and Oman....

114 - Our Amazing Cambodia Experience

October 22, 2018 22:01 - 34 minutes - 31.4 MB

I've had lots of special travel experiences in my life but my recent week in Cambodia with Hands On Journeys easily rates as one of the most special of all, so I'm really excited to share these chats with three of my fellow travellers in Cambodia - well, to be precise, two travellers and our one-and-only tour guide extraordinaire, Cham. First up, I chat with Meagan Hurst from California, who has previously travelled several times with Hands On Journeys but was still really impacted by our t...

113 - Expat Travellers

October 15, 2018 22:01 - 24 minutes - 22.8 MB

Anyone who's lived an expat life of some sort tends to be a good traveller, right? (Actually, I have a friend who's an exception to this, but it's rare.) In Episode 113 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast I chat with three people who are currently living as expats - a Polish woman in the United States, a Swede in Australia and an Australian in South Korea, just to have a good mix! - about their expat travels and life in general. I love hearing about the kinds of expat lives people live and my ...

112 - Wellness Travel

October 08, 2018 22:01 - 24 minutes - 22.4 MB

Wellness travel is a fast-growing industry, but it's a part of travel that I haven't taken much part in to date. I'm intrigued, though, I was happy to speak to three guests for Episode 112 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast who have had a whole spectrum of wellness experiences as part of their travels. First up I chat with Cheri Shanti, who has had some really interesting experiences in central America in the wellness sphere. Of everyone in this episode, it's Cheri's interesting approach to w...

111 - Secret Thailand: Phrae and Nan

October 01, 2018 22:01 - 29 minutes - 27.5 MB

Exploring the lesser-known parts of Thailand was something I was lucky to do recently following the annual Australian Society of Travel Writers convention in Bangkok. With a small group of delightful travel writers I explored the towns of Phrae and Nan in the north-east of Thailand and being such an "off the beaten path" pair of destinations, I just had to share something about them with you for Episode 111 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast. First up I chat with Natascha Mirosch, one of my f...

110 - 10 Thoughts I'm Thinking About Thoughtful Travel

August 27, 2018 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.8 MB

I didn't start off being all thoughtful about travel and I also know I still have so much to learn - and that'll continue to need to learn - about many of the ways we can approach our travelling in a more thoughtful way. But in this special episode of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast, Episode 110, I've put together a list of ten thoughts I've been thinking about thoughtful travel in the past little while. You'll have to listen to find out what these ten thoughts are but let me preface them by ...

109 - Travellers Taking Photographs

August 20, 2018 22:01 - 25 minutes - 23.8 MB

When you travel, you take pictures. When you travel a lot, you take lots of pictures, and you start to want them to be good pictures! That's one reason why Episode 109 of The Thoughtful Travel Podcast features three travel-lovers who've become interested in photography. First up, I chat with Jim Jones who got his first DSLR camera when he took a big trip through Europe by train - and has gone from strength to strength since. Next I chat with Erin Gustafson who, with an art background, has...

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