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Seedpod

106 episodes - English - Latest episode: almost 3 years ago - ★★★★★ - 3 ratings

Seedpod is a podcast dedicated to the people shaping our world through social entrepreneurship, sustainability and design. We started this project in the hope of exploring unique perspectives on the issues facing the society we live in. Designer and entrepreneur Lee Rael is doing just that by having authentic conversations with talented creatives, innovative entrepreneurs and environmental pioneers. By unpacking their wisdom, insights and personal stories, Lee hopes to inspire and educate, and maybe even entertain.Let’s create more meaningful connections to our experiences by engaging with the people who are shaping them. We hope you enjoy the show.

Business Arts Design design creativity sustainability inspiration ngo social enterprise climate crisis climate change social development environment
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Episodes

Season 2 Intro

October 12, 2021 20:00 - 3 minutes - 2.54 MB

Hello again, its me, Lee, I am back finally with season 2 called Big Questions. This is just an intro and small taste of whats to come. Look out for new episodes dropping soon!

100: What lies ahead?

December 31, 2020 17:00 - 14 minutes - 10.2 MB

Thank you to my faithful listeners for your ears and attention over the last 2 years. This is the last seedpod episode of the year and of season 1. I will be launching a season 2 in the coming months, i have some big ideas and intentions so stay tuned. And this final podcast is a message from my heart to yours amongst the madness we find ourselves in. Much love and peace, see you next year.

99: Theo Ndindwa - I am not my environment

November 13, 2020 14:00 - 1 hour - 69.1 MB

I had the absolute privilege of meeting and interviewing Theo Ndindwa, who is for those who don't know, one of the first internationally recognised black ballet dancers in South Africa. He was selected to be part of a Nutcracker production in the early 90’s which was the first multiracial ballet production in post Apartheid South Africa. Then aged 12 he had the foresight to see that this was an opportunity to greater possibilities than what he had dreamt available to him till that point. The...

98: Peter Schelstraete - We have all the solutions

October 16, 2020 09:00 - 1 hour - 52.2 MB

This weeks guest Peter Schelstraete is the co-founder and CEO of UBUNTOO, a technology  startup whose mission is to accelerate scalable sustainability solutions and innovations by providing a digital platform for global visibility and collaboration. The Ubuntoo platform connects innovators and industry leaders to collaborate on solutions and technologies in support of the UN SDGs, starting with solutions to end plastic waste & pollution. Previously, Peter was at The Coca-Cola Company for 19...

97: Misha Teasdale - Moving the needle

September 24, 2020 16:00 - 1 hour - 45.4 MB

Misha Teasdale needs little introduction. As the self proclaimed Tree-E-O of Greenpop South Africa, a tree planting land restoration organization, he aims to not only facilitate the healing of our planet but ourselves as well. Misha has a B-Tech in Sustainable Industrial Design, and before he started Greenpop, he went on a journey from Cape Town to London, profiling NGO’s and CBO’s across the continent to attract CSI funding and encourage knowledge sharing and grassroots volunteering. This e...

96: Jakob Trollbäck - Creative Multiplication

September 10, 2020 20:00 - 54 minutes - 37.7 MB

Earlier this year at design Indaba I had the pleasure of talking to in my mind one of the most influential designers alive today. Swedish graphic designer Jakob Trollbäck is the main architect behind the communication language for the United Nations’ 17 Global Goals – an ambitious and inspiring agenda for a better world by 2030. With a client list that is impressive  – Apple, Google, Nike, Spotify, Volvo, BBC, ESPN, NBC, CBS and the TED conferences – his team has received a slew of creative ...

96: Jacob Trollback - Creative Multiplication

September 10, 2020 20:00 - 54 minutes - 37.7 MB

Earlier this year at design Indaba I had the pleasure of talking to in my mind one of the most influential designers alive today. Swedish graphic designer Jakob Trollbäck is the main architect behind the communication language for the United Nations’ 17 Global Goals – an ambitious and inspiring agenda for a better world by 2030. With a client list that is impressive  – Apple, Google, Nike, Spotify, Volvo, BBC, ESPN, NBC, CBS and the TED conferences – his team has received a slew of creative ...

95: Peetachai Dejkraisak - Creating new opportunities

September 02, 2020 07:00 - 1 hour - 41.4 MB

This weeks guest is based in one of my favourite countries in the world, Bangkok Thailand. Peetachai Dejkraisak or more simply known as Niel is the co-founder and CEO of Jasberry a sustainable social enterprise that seeks to solve some of the worlds most pressing issues. The jasberry rice is a superfood which delivers high nutrition, is farmed sustainably and organically and is helping to lift the ordinary rice farmers of South east Asia out of poverty.  Niel has a degree in Environmental e...

94: Maryke Musson - Remember to care

August 19, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 49 MB

My guest for this week, Maryke Musson grew up with the ambition of being a dolphin. When that didnt work out, she managed to obtain science degrees in various fields including marine biology, medical physiology, fisheries science, psychology and neurology. She has worked in the marine science field for the past 25 years, from aquariology, to research to sustainable production and governance, and has presented at many conferences locally and internationally. Her focus is on making a differen...

93: Nhlanhla Mahlangu - Chant of a nation

August 11, 2020 15:00 - 29 minutes - 20.5 MB

In this week's episode I jump back to an interview I did at Design Indaba earlier this year but the relevance of the content has not changed and if anything in light of recent events is that much more powerful to listen to. I had the privilege of a half an hour conversation with Nhlanhla Mahlangu known both locally and internationally for his richly choreographed theatrical productions and his work with the famous South African artist William Kentridge. Nhlanhla is the very embodiment of ten...

92: Justin Needham - The business of waste

July 29, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 52.6 MB

Justin Needham, my last guest for the plastics free July series, has been involved in recycling for many years on a grassroots level. Having started one of the first consumer recycling collections businesses in South Africa he has first hand knowledge of how the system works and what the inherent shortfalls are. After spotting a gap in the market he is now pioneering the sector once again by bringing the reverse vending machine concept to our shores but tweaking it for local application and ...

91: George van der Schyff - Pristine heart

July 22, 2020 17:00 - 1 hour - 49.1 MB

In his latest incarnation, this weeks guest,  George van der Schyff heads up Pristine earth, an NGO based in Cape Town working in the environment and specifically plastics waste and pollution. Their goal is to form collaborations and bring stakeholders together to enhance the best solutions in order to support them to achieve maximum impact. One of the projects they have involvement with at the moment is brimming the Litterboom concept to Cape Town which provides a simple yet innovative way...

90: Paul Cocksedge - Inspiring joy

July 14, 2020 18:00 - 37 minutes - 25.5 MB

London-based Paul Cocksedge has worked on projects as diverse as a flower-powered light, a canopy for the world’s largest botanical gardens, and furniture that fuses different metals through a freezing process. It’s impossible to pigeonhole the restlessly inventive Cocksedge, who studied industrial design at Sheffield Hallam University and product design under Ron Arad at the Royal College of Art in London. Few people are more adept at seeing everyday problems that cry out for design solutio...

89: Ian Doimmisse - To Ecobrick or not

July 07, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 56 MB

This week for plastic free July I chat to eco pioneer Ian Dommisse who is an architect with a passion for alternative, environmentally friendly construction methods. In 2013 he founded The EcoBrick Exchange (EBE), a recycling non-profit, which aims to use upcycled plastic waste as a building material. Ian now also focuses on landscaping projects, education and training as his way of making a difference. We chatted about many of the myths around Ecobricks and how they can best be used to div...

89: Ian Dommisse - To Ecobrick or not

July 07, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 56 MB

This week for plastic free July I chat to eco pioneer Ian Dommisse who is an architect with a passion for alternative, environmentally friendly construction methods. In 2013 he founded The EcoBrick Exchange (EBE), a recycling non-profit, which aims to use upcycled plastic waste as a building material. Ian now also focuses on landscaping projects, education and training as his way of making a difference. We chatted about many of the myths around Ecobricks and how they can best be used to div...

88: Manu Prakash - Democratising science

June 30, 2020 20:00 - 27 minutes - 19 MB

This weeks guest Manu Prakash,  who I met at the design Indaba earlier this year, did his master’s and PhD in applied physics at MIT before founding the Prakash Lab at Stanford. “Manu works at the molecular scale to literally try and understand how the world really works.  he is the co-inventor of the Foldscope and co-founder of Foldscope Instruments. Manu is dedicated towards inventing and distributing “frugal science” tools to democratize access to science , diagnostics of deadly diseases...

87: Rowan le Roux - Business for good

June 23, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 46.2 MB

As part of my Foodnext  conference series I had the privilege to interview  Rowan le Roux, who has been involved in sustainable activities for over 15 years from ecological economic research, to environmental finance to being sustainability manager within a large plastic manufacturer. Rowan believes, wholeheartedly, in business as a force for good and in the role that purpose driven businesses can play in restoring environmental and community systems in South Africa. Rowan is currently Opera...

86: Catalina Lotero - Natural by design

June 17, 2020 19:00 - 37 minutes - 25.8 MB

Together with a multidisciplinary team, Catalina Lotero is tackling the global energy crisis with a surprisingly simple, plant-based idea. The Colombian-born American, who studied industrial design in Bogotá, Colombia, and is currently doing her Masters in design at Keio University in Tokyo, came up with the sustainable solution to solve a pressing problem. One in eight people worldwide does not have access to electricity, with 84% of them living in rural areas. Lotero’s ‘Raiki’ – essentiall...

85: Pavitry Pillay - Active awareness

June 08, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 54.5 MB

This weeks guest, Pavitray Pillay, is the manager of the WWF (SASSI) program or  Southern African Sustainable Seafood Initiative. She has been involved in consumer awareness, education, outreach and public engagement on sustainable seafood and marine conservation for the last 5 years. Coming from humble beginnings and a background in marine biology Pavs brings both passion and deep knowledge to the work she does. She is now heading up behaviour change at WWF using the experienced gained thro...

85: Pavitray Pillay - Active awareness

June 08, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 54.5 MB

This weeks guest, Pavitray Pillay, is the manager of the WWF (SASSI) program or  Southern African Sustainable Seafood Initiative. She has been involved in consumer awareness, education, outreach and public engagement on sustainable seafood and marine conservation for the last 5 years. Coming from humble beginnings and a background in marine biology Pavs brings both passion and deep knowledge to the work she does. She is now heading up behaviour change at WWF using the experienced gained thro...

84: Debbie Millman - Design your life

June 02, 2020 20:00 - 37 minutes - 25.7 MB

“Named “one of the most creative people in business” by Fast Company, and “one of the most influential designers working today” by Graphic Design USA, Debbie Millman is also an author, educator, curator and host of the  Design Matters podcast. As the founder and host of Design Matters, one of the world’s first and longest running podcasts, Millman has interviewed nearly 500 artists, designers and cultural commentators over the past 14 years. Design Matters won a 2011 Cooper Hewitt National ...

83: Nicki Russell - Big heart, big impact

May 25, 2020 19:00 - 42 minutes - 29.4 MB

Last year as part of the Foodnext series I had the privilege of chatting to Nicki Russell, head of Innovation at Pick n Pay. Nicki is a passionate foodie and product developer demonstrating a 20 year history of working across multiple categories in food retail. She is skilled in trend analysis, creating and landing new concepts and inspiring teams and suppliers to push product boundaries. Her world is “all about the product,” and the customer experience is key to ongoing growth. We had a g...

82: Vukheta Mukhari - Nature sees no waste

May 18, 2020 16:00 - 51 minutes - 35.3 MB

Earlier this year I had the privilege of attending the Design Indaba before lockdown. This weeks guest, similarly to last week really impressed me with his  energy, passion and focus toward making our world a better place. A born innovator, Vukheta Mukhari was always going to be at the forefront of human knowledge. As a Masters candidate in civil engineering at the University of Cape Town (UCT) he is passionate about greening the economy, and the ground-breaking project he is currently invo...

81: Gift Lubele - What it means to be human

May 11, 2020 18:00 - 1 hour - 52 MB

Its been quite a long time since this conversation was recorded and the world has changed significantly but I feel its even more relevant today where we are busy evaluating the world we want to see post Covid. Gift Lubele is the co-founder of Kudoti – South Africa’s first data and analytics recycling platform that increase efficiency and reduce costs in food, general and other waste operations. Kudoti was named one of the 25 Most Innovative Companies by Fast Company SA. He is one of the 201...

80: Stephen Fern - A new world Ark

May 05, 2020 04:00 - 1 hour - 47.9 MB

This week I had the fortune of connecting with Stephen Fern who has a background working with many of the worlds wealthiest families and helping them to find purpose in their wealth. He has now created his own project called Ark2030 which has among others the ambitious goal of restoring 500 Million hectares of land to their pre-industrial state by 2030. He aims to do this using a unique organisational and funding model which I will leave you to listen to the conversation to discover. This c...

79: Jon Duncan - Shared value

April 28, 2020 20:00 - 1 hour - 53.6 MB

Earlier this year I had the privilege of chatting to Jon Duncan, head of Responsible Investment at Old Mutual. An engineer by training, with a Master’s degree in Environmental Science, Jon has over 20 years of professional experience in the field of sustainability research and engagement. He has worked extensively throughout Africa across a range of sectors supporting organisations with strategic social, environmental and sustainability related issues.  Jon now leads the Responsible Investm...

COVID-19 Series: Episode 4 - Seraj Toefy

April 21, 2020 20:00 - 58 minutes - 39.9 MB

Seraj Toefy joins me on Seedpod again bringing with him a wealth of knowledge to talk about entrepreneurship and what is like for business owners during this difficult time of COVID-19. He has some practical advice for what we can as business owners do now to minimise the damage while we try to reach the other side and then some things to start thinking about for when we can start operating again. Seraj is a father, husband, entrepreneur, mento, speaker and awesome human, we also speak about...

COVID-19 Series: Episode 3 - Fred Roed

April 14, 2020 19:00 - 1 hour - 54.2 MB

Fred Roed runs the Heavy Chef events platform and entrepreneurship community, is a seasoned entrepreneur himself and is well respected across the board for good reason. Fred is a legend. So I thought it would be great to get his perspective on the COVID-19 crisis we find ourselves in, the business side of its impact and take a peak behind the scenes at Heavy Chef and find out what it takes to turn your business into a digital one practically overnight. Fred is also filled with wisdom and adv...

COVID-19 Series: Episode 2 - Gavin Shaskolsky

April 05, 2020 11:00 - 1 hour - 49.2 MB

In this conversation I tap into the deep wisdom and intentionality that Gavin brings to everything he does. To find out more about the phenomenal human that is Gavin please listen to the first episode of this podcast. We discuss some deep penetrating ideas about what this time means for us as humans and bring it back to some practical steps and advice on how to move through this time in the best was possible for each of us. The episode is packed with information so might even require more th...

COVID-19 Series: Episode 2 - Gavin Shaskolsky

April 05, 2020 11:00 - 1 hour - 49.2 MB

In this conversation I tap into the deep wisdom and intentionality that Gavin brings to everything he does. To find out more about the phenomenal human that is Gavin please listen to the first episode of this podcast. We discuss some deep penetrating ideas about what this time means for us as humans and bring it back to some practical steps and advice on how to move through this time in the best was possible for each of us. The episode is packed with information so might even require more th...

COVID-19 Series: Episode 1 - Thomas Brennan

March 29, 2020 20:00 - 1 hour - 49.6 MB

I have decided to pause my normal content stream in light of the current paradigm we are living through and attempt to bring you conversations that will be of value around the COVID-19 topic. Thomas lives in China half his time, has worked in healthcare and now in finance so I believe has a unique perspective to bring and I hope some clarity and ideas for moving forward in this unprecedented time.

74: Bas Timmer - Seeing the unseen

March 16, 2020 04:00 - 27 minutes - 18.6 MB

This first guest from Design Indaba has done just that, he is looking at the people who live on the fringe of society on the streets and how he can help them using the skills that he has. Bas Timmer is a Dutch independent clothing designer who created the shelter suit after a father of a close friend died from hypothermia after finding himself on the streets. The shelter suit aims to protect the homeless from the elements by providing them warmth, protection from the wind, cold and rain usin...

73: Zachariah George - Be human for a little bit.

March 09, 2020 04:00 - 1 hour - 55.7 MB

Ever since I had Zachariah George on the show last year we have been threatening to get him back in the studio. There are 2 sides to Zach, the startup, corporate, finance, hustle side and the free flowing, hippie, musician side. Last time we spoke business and ran out of time so I thought it was time to show you his alter ego. This week Zach is in studio sharing his philosophy of life, a few songs and why travel is a big part of who he is. It was a fun, thought provoking conversation filled ...

72: Lee Rael - Who am I?

March 02, 2020 16:00 - 1 hour - 66.4 MB

This week the tables are turned and I am interviewed by my friend Rayne Stroebel. Our conversation doesn't really go into what I do for a living and my work but rather asks the deeper question of who I am? Its a tough question to answer if anyone has really spent time thinking about and articulating this its not that easy. I hope it makes for interesting listening because I have always said this podcast is not about me but rather the people I interview. For those who are interested in findin...

71: Karoline Hanks - Carry your own

February 24, 2020 04:00 - 1 hour - 44.2 MB

This weeks guest Karoline Hanks is a passionate anti-SUP campaigner, and has been spear-heading a campaign against the use of plastic water sachets in road running in South Africa for over five years. She is a competitive Ultra distance trail runner, and recently scooped her fourth Puffer (80k) win. On the back of her latest race, she managed to raise R14 000 for a community project she manages with her partner in Noordhoek: Project Noordhoeked. She started a small business three years ago (...

70: Sipamandla Manqele - Let us be gracious and kind

February 17, 2020 04:00 - 56 minutes - 38.5 MB

This podcast is the next in the series that was recorded at the foodnext conference at the CTICC in September 2019. This weeks guest, Sipamandla Manqele is a 28-year-old entrepreneur breaking fresh ground in the realm of agro-processing with her business, Local Village. She produces a variety of artisanal and organic foods and has built a compelling value proposition within a niche health market. Manqele’s business has been running for three years and has already proven itself a viable and ...

69: Carmen Stevens - Anything is possible

February 10, 2020 04:00 - 1 hour - 64.5 MB

This week's guest Carmen Stevens is an award-winning winemaker selling her own brand of wines on the international stage. She is the first post apartheid Black female wine maker and her story is an incredible one. Growing up on the cape flats experiencing the effects of gangsterism and drug first hand she was determined to live a different life but becoming a winemaker in an all white, all male Apartheid South African industry brought a whole new set of challenges. She now has a foundation t...

68:Thomas Brennan - Lets be Franc

February 03, 2020 04:00 - 1 hour - 50.5 MB

This week I sit down with Franc co founder Thomas Brennan who is a Rhodes scholarship recipient, ex Google employee, MIT researcher and ex Discovery Health technology and innovation team leader with a passion for the health sector and finance. Once he realised that the financial products currently offered to the general market weren’t as good as it could be and excludes much of the population he sought about finding a solution. After taking the leap from the comforts of a pay-check he founde...

67: Abe Cambridge - Monetized Sunshine

January 27, 2020 04:00 - 1 hour - 58.6 MB

Abe Cambridge is a serial energy entrepreneur who establishes businesses and projects that use solar energy to effect socio-economic change. In 2012, one of his businesses, The Renewable Energy Co-operative, was nominated ‘International Co-operative of The Year’ in the UN Year of Co-operatives. He now lives in South Africa, where in 2014 he launched Sun Exchange, a global solar micro-leasing marketplace that closes the funding gap for commercial- and community-scale solar projects in emergin...

66: Nicola Jenkin - Where does your food come from?

January 21, 2020 14:00 - 1 hour - 50.2 MB

Nicola Jerkin has 20 years of experience working in the sustainability field with a particular focus on adding value to the supply chain, sustainable food systems, food waste, alien vegetation and forestry, ocean plastic, packaging and green skills. She holds a MEd in Environmental Education (Rhodes University); BSc (Hons) in Environmental & Geographical Science (University of Cape Town); and a BA in Geography and Anthropology (Rhodes University). She is the founder of Pinpoint, which provi...

65: Goodby and thank you 2019

December 13, 2019 14:00 - 11 minutes - 8.24 MB

This is a short podcast wrapping up the year and giving you a few hints about whats coming next year. Thank you if you support this podcast as a listener!

64: Tracey Davies - Social Capital

December 03, 2019 20:00 - 1 hour - 54.5 MB

This weeks guest Tracey Davies runs Just Share which is a non-profit shareholder activism and responsible investment organisation that promotes the use of investor power for a fairer South Africa. Tracey spends her days fighting for transparency, equality and positive  impact in the private sector or corporate sector of South Africa. She advocates that in order for South Africa to begin to find solutions to our problems the corporate sector need to shift their focus from shareholder profit ...

63: Lorren de Kock - A world of plastic

November 19, 2019 15:00 - 1 hour - 54.5 MB

This week I had the pleasure of sitting down with Industrial engineer turned WWF plastics consultant Lorren de Kock. In her mid 30’s Lorren realised she needed a change in a career path and needed to do something that made a difference so she went back to University part time while still working and raising a famil Now Lorren heads up the Plastics team at WWF where she works with the various stakeholders in the industry to find solutions to the problems we face. We discussed many aspects o...

62: Makoma Lekalakala - Will you stand up?

November 12, 2019 15:00 - 1 hour - 47.7 MB

Makoma Lekalakala is a soft spoken, unassuming South African human rights activist and the director of the Earthlife Africa in Johannesburg.  Earthlife Africa is an environmental NGO that lobbies the SA government to ensure environmental and climate justice in our communities.  Makoma and Liz McDaid, were awarded the 2018 Goldman Environmental Prize for the African region, for their groundbreaking work on using the justice system to stop a Russian-South African nuclear deal in 2017. Makoma ...

61: Mkhululi Silandela - How secure is our food?

November 04, 2019 13:00 - 58 minutes - 40.5 MB

Joining us for this week’s episode is Mkhululi Silandela,  Senior Manager for the Sustainable Agriculture & Smallholder-Support program at WWF-SA.  This podcast is part of a series in partnership with Foodnext.africa. FoodNext.Africa is a b2b food event where startups, food innovators, foodtech businesses, investors and partners who are redefining the food industry from farm-to-fork are able to connect. Mkhululi launched his career in the food & beverages industry, and later worked as the r...

60: Camille Olianti - Letting Go

October 28, 2019 15:00 - 1 hour - 57.8 MB

On the 18th of October 2019, this weeks guest Camille Olianti set off for Reunion Island where she challenged herself to run a 114km trail run with 6500m of altitude gain. The challenge was motivated by her love of  nature and running, as well as her passion to bring about change. Camille ran to raise funds for the South African Endurance Academy (ENDUROCAD) based in Stellenbosch which helps female athletes from underprivileged backgrounds get an education and develop their talent in athleti...

59: Sarah Robyn Farrell - Collective future

October 22, 2019 19:00 - 1 hour - 46.1 MB

Sarah Robyn Farrell, aka Sustainable Sarah, joins me this week to speak about her contribution to a more sustainable world.  She is really multitalented working as a writer, environmental communicator, climate justice activist, and musician with a conscious work ethic combined with creativity, passion and a drive for instilling positive change.  She is both the founder and creative director of transparenCI, creative agency that specialises in sustainability communications and a founding mem...

58: Rayne Stroebel - Consciousness is never lost

October 15, 2019 16:00 - 1 hour - 79.4 MB

Unlike most children, Rayne Stroebel grew up in an Aged Care Home where his mother was the Matron. There the seeds were planted that later developed into his heart for better care. He founded GERATEC which is a person-centred community where older people can live in a home-like environment and make their own decisions. They achieve this with a holistic and compassionate approach, meeting individual needs, encouraging independence and continued growth, rather than manage their decline. Throug...

57: Emile Fourie - Making waste matter

October 08, 2019 19:00 - 1 hour - 65.4 MB

This week's guest, Emile Fourie, is focused on looking at waste differently.  Emile is the CEO & Co-Founder of Ywaste, a company that specialised in Food Waste Management by transforming wasted food into organic compost. Ywaste started as a small company that manufactured domestic-scale worm farms, but in just 8 years they transformed into a substantial operation that diverts more than 1 500 tons of food waste from landfills each year. Scarily, 90% of South Africa’s food waste ends up in lan...

56: Tracey Gilmore - Second Chances

September 30, 2019 16:00 - 1 hour - 44 MB

From humble beginnings, Tracy Gilmore has created a powerful personal development ‘sisterhood’. It started when she and her partner convinced retailers to donate excess garments, and empowered unemployed single mothers by teaching them basic business skills. The reach of their influence has expanded greatly and they have equipped 1000’s of women with the knowledge and ability to create a bright future through a healing, supportive entrepreneurship training programme. Above all, the programme...