Prophet Pearls #17 – Yitro (Isaiah 6:1-7:6; 9:5-6)

In this episode of Prophet Pearls, Yitro (Isaiah 6:1-7:6; 9:5-60), Nehemia Gordon compares Isaiah’s succinct vision of heaven to accounts in Kings, Ezekiel and Daniel. We see a “real” Adonai in this Portion and learn about the importance of the … Continue reading →

The post Prophet Pearls #17 – Yitro (Isaiah 6:1-7:6; 9:5-6) appeared first on Nehemia's Wall.

In this episode of Prophet Pearls, Yitro (Isaiah 6:1-7:6; 9:5-60), Nehemia Gordon compares Isaiah’s succinct vision of heaven to accounts in Kings, Ezekiel and Daniel. We see a “real” Adonai in this Portion and learn about the importance of the Masoretic notes. Gordon and Johnson tackle the problematic issue of Isaiah actually seeing God and explain where Isaiah got the idea that fire cleanses.

We learn more about the “Seraphim” and why the Septuagint didn’t translate this word. Gordon provides word studies on “kadosh,” “kodesh,” “kadish,” and “Kiddush” and diagrams key words in the final verses to clarify which words are subjects and which is the direct object. Gordon closes by praying in Hebrew and English, using these attributes and titles of Yehovah to ask that we would soon come together under the eternal reign of the Prince of Peace.

"And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Yehovah of hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory." (Isaiah 6:3)

I look forward to reading your comments!

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Transcript

Prophet Pearls #17 - Yitro (Isaiah 6:1-7:6; 9:5-6)

You are listening to Prophet Pearls with Nehemia Gordon and Keith Johnson. Thank you for supporting Nehemia Gordon's Makor Hebrew Foundation. Learn more at NehemiasWall.com.

Nehemia: The Prophet Pearls Program. The study of God’s Word represented by two separate yet equally important approaches. The Jew whose people preserve the oracles of God and the crazy Methodist who is moved by his spirit. These are their discussions. Dun Dun. Are you there, Keith?

Keith: Hello.

Nehemia: No, that’s the intro.

Keith: Wonderful. Did you take some time to think about that, Nehemia?

Nehemia: Yes, I prayed about it.

Keith: It sounds like you really went into depth. That’s amazing. So this is Prophet Pearls, and you’ve just come up with a new intro. It’s funny - today you’ve come up with that intro. There are so many things changing, and we really need to bring people up to date on what’s changing right now. I mean, literally, we are within a couple of weeks of doing something that’s a pretty big deal in order for us to even continue. So we can either let you explain it, or I can explain it, but we’ve got to let the people know what’s going on.

Nehemia: Well, we’ve definitely run into a lot of technical difficulties doing the program. We did one episode where we were disconnected something like seven times.

Keith: Eight.

Nehemia: It was eight? No, I think we had eight recordings, so we were disconnected seven times, but whatever, who’s counting? Right. So we realized that the first episodes went really well because we were sitting in the room next to each other, so we’ve got to find a situation where we can actually come together to record this program - because you’re in China, which has the worst internet on planet earth. No question. Yeah.

Keith: Okay. Let’s get started Nehemia.

Nehemia: Amen.

Keith: We’re in Isaiah chapter six. This section is… boy oh boy. I don’t know how I’m going to get past the first few verses.

Nehemia: I think… I mean, honestly, I would like in some ways to jump to the last two verses. But you want to do the first…

Keith: Oh, there’s no way… Okay, I’ll tell you what…

Nehemia: We won’t jump, but we’ve got to... I want us to budget some time for those last two verses.

Keith: You could give me some time in the beginning and I want to give you some time at the end. Before we get started though, let’s give folks a little bit of context. There are a couple of things happening that are really related to this particular section that we’re working on. One of the favorite sections that… I really enjoyed this section when we did the Original Torah Pearls program - and let me just say to folks who are listening, we really are about to show people just how serious we are about Scripture and what we’re willing to do to be able to share Scripture with people. And so we’re going to be doing that over these next couple of weeks, if the recordings and everything work out. But what you didn’t explain to them is what we are going to do. We are going to come together in the land of the prophets to continue recording if everything goes well and we’re all safe and you know, traveling across the world and all that sort of thing, we’re going to meet in the land of the prophets to continue recording together, face to face. Is that the understanding that you have?

Nehemia: Yeah. And by land of prophets, you mean like, Wall Street?

Keith: No. The land of Israel. We’ll be together.

Nehemia: Eretz HaNevi’im. The land of the prophets who spoke the Word of God.

Keith: So we’ll be doing that together. And folks, we really do need your prayers for that, because we’re going to have to do a whole lot of these in a short period of time, which means you have to prepare for them now. But we’re going to get into this… so again, a little bit about the Original Torah Pearls - the section that we’re looking at is Yitro, which I just have to tell you, when I look at that section, and thinking about what’s happening there in Exodus chapter 18 through 20, 23 or so, whatever that, yeah, 20 verse 23, there’s so much that happens in that section, the Ten Commandments come out, and God introduced Himself, and there’s all this stuff going on, and then we end up in Isaiah chapter 6. And I have to say also, you said you want to get to the last two verses. I’m not even sure how the last two verses got tagged on without… I mean you’re going to have to explain that.

Nehemia: That’s something we’ve seen before. They want it to end on a good note.

Keith: Good. You’re going to have to explain that. I think there’s a lot of… they’re getting around the issue here. But anyway though let’s go ahead. Can we jump into Isaiah 6?

Nehemia: Sure.

Keith: Because I know you’re not really excited about this. You’re saying you’re saying you want to…

Nehemia: No, I’m excited about it, but I’m excited about all of it.

Keith: It’s just… oh my goodness. So here, here you have this, “In the year that King Uzziah died,” and then Isaiah says, “I saw the Lord.” And of course, we would think, “Oh, of course, it’s capital L-O-R-D.” And Nehemia, it’s not capital L-O-R-D. Again, we have an example where we have the word Adonai.

Nehemia: Right.

Keith: And it’s just so there’s no confusion that he didn’t see a different lord or someone else that goes on to explain it. But I just got caught up right away in the beginning that Isaiah says he saw Him.

Nehemia: Right. Well, the way we know that he didn’t see a different lord is that there are two different forms of the word in Hebrew. In Hebrew, when it says adonee, it means “my lord” with a small l and that could be a king, could be referring to King David. It actually could be an angel in some passages. But then Adonai, where it has that “i” at the end, Adonai, that only refers to Yehovah.

Now how do we know that this isn’t a mistake? How do we know that it didn’t originally say Yehovah, and then they read it Adonai so they wrote Adonai. How do we know? Because there’s actually a note in the margin of the Masoretic text, and it says Koof-Lamed-Dalet - 134 - and this is one of 134 places in the Tanakh where the word Adonai appears and it’s supposed to appear without Yehovah next to it. This is a genuine Adonai. It’s not a mistake.

And it’s actually really interesting, because there is one place in the Leningrad Codex that we’ve talked about and we’ve seen, that I came across where it says Yehovah, and it’s supposed to say Adonai. So it’s really an important note. It’s a proofreader’s note to make sure that it’s copied correctly, because once you start to read Yud-Hei-Vav-Hei as Adonai, there’s room for confusion and mistakes. So these proofreading notes were crucial. They told the people, they told the scribes, “Okay, this is a legitimate one and that’s not a legitimate one, so correct that.” So this is a legitimate place where he says, “I saw Adonai sitting upon the throne high and lifted up,” et cetera.

Keith: Yeah. And I don’t know if for you… when I was reading this I just tried to… It’s just that I love the pictures. I love the pictures of Scripture, and here we’ve got Isaiah somehow seeing this - I don’t even know how to put it - this magnificent image of what it is that’s happening. And he’s communicating this to us, and then it says, “His robe was filling the Temple.”

And then I had to ask myself - I have to be honest with you, I had to ask myself - now, is he looking at… like, up there? Is he up there, down there, in that dimension of Heaven… is that the Temple that he was talking about? Or are we talking about him getting an image of the Temple that’s, you know, down on earth? I mean which temple are we talking about? And I can’t really jump to that because we’re going to get to the next verse. But when you read that, do you see Isaiah in that dimension? Or do you see Isaiah seeing something taking place on earth?

Nehemia: Oh, this is definitely a vision. This is what I understand to be what’s described in Jewish sources as Ma’aseh HaMerkava or “The Vision of the Chariot.” This is God’s royal chariot - whatever that even means - or His throne if you will, the throne of God. And He’s sitting on the throne, He’s surrounded by the angels - and we can start talking about this - this is something that we see described in 1 Kings 22 with Makaihu, we’ve talked about that passage I believe. In verses 19 to 22 Ezekiel talks about this a number of times. Daniel chapter 7 seems to also speak about this. This is the vision of the chariot, of the throne of God, and it also probably appears in Exodus as well in one passage. So, yes, it’s amazing.

Keith: Yeah. I’m not going to get past verse 2. I’m going to talk about verse 2, but I want to bring up verse 4 for just for one second because it caught my attention. In the NIV it says, “And the foundations,” and I’m not jumping ahead folks, don’t worry, we’re going to get to the fun part before that, but just addressing the issue of which temple and what vision it is that he’s seeing. It says, “And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out while the was filled with smoke.” In 6:4 if I open up the Hebrew and I look at it, and I see the words… and it says in verse 6:4 “Vehabayit” was filled with smoke. It uses the word “the house”, and that was kind of why I just thought… it may just be mental in my head, you know, when you think of “Har Habayit”, “the house on the hill” and all those sorts of things. For me, I just thought about him calling it… and it doesn’t say “the house” of course in the English.

Nehemia: Right. Well, so you need to explain to the people in Hebrew there is no word temple. It’s called “Beit Yehovah”, the House of Yehovah. And within the House of Yehovah is “Heichal”, which is part of the House of Yehovah. There’s an outer courtyard… or there are three sections. There’s - I don’t know what they’re called in English. There’s the Azara, Heichal and the Dvir. So the Heichal is the middle section where the priests could go. Then there’s the inner sanctum, where only the high priests can go. So this is kind of like the outer sanctum; that’s the Heichal. So yes, this is describing some kind of a heavenly temple. I mean, I suppose it could be an earthly temple, but it seems to me - I mean we’ve got like saraphim here... Do you have saraphim in your English?

Keith: Absolutely, we do have that.

Nehemia: So can we talk about the saraphim just real quick?

Keith: Oh, absolutely.

Nehemia: So saraphim is serpents. Literally it’s the word saraph - lisroph – “to burn”. I immediately see this and I think of Numbers 21 verse 8. Now, there is another word for serpent, which is nachash; that’s a snake, a serpent. But saraph is something more specific. It’s the burning serpent. Numbers 21, verse 8, “Then Yehovah said to Moses, ‘Make a saraph figure and mount it on a standard.’” “Figure” isn’t in the Hebrew. It just says “make for yourself a saraph and put it on the standard. And if anyone who is bitten looks at it, he shall recover.” So this is that incident where they’re bitten by snakes in the desert and they look upon the saraph, which is on the pole, and they’re healed. And there’s got to be a connection between… why of all the types of snakes that He said to put on the thing, why was it a saraph? It has to be some connection, because Moses knew what was up in heaven. Moses knew. Moses doesn’t describe it, but he saw the same thing Isaiah saw. Maybe.

Keith: That’s amazing. You know, from memory, help me with this. You’ve got your computer there. Does it not say, when the serpents came, I think in English it says, “the fiery serpents”, isn’t it the nachash saraphim? Isn’t that the connection in 21:6?

Nehemia: 21:6, right.

Keith: Yeah, so it uses the word serpents and then it uses the word seraphim. So when I looked at this actually Nehemia, I was thinking about just the root of the word, the seraph. And again, in English, they’re helping us. They’re saying these were fiery snakes. I think if we look… I don’t know how many times it shows up, but I think most of the times we get… Okay, so we heard the word saraph. It’s talking about some kind of something to do with fire. Am I correct?

Nehemia: In other words, the serpent, the word fire is implied in the word...

Keith: Right. But I’m saying in terms of the word itself, the times before we get to Numbers to dealing with the actual serpent, hanachash, the serpents that were fiery, whatever you want to call them.

Nehemia: Let me give you an example - Isaiah 30 verse 6 in the JPS, “The beast of the Negev pronouncement,” it was a prophecy about the beast of the Negev, “through a land of distress and hardship of lion and roaring king beast of viper and flying saraph, they convey their wealth on the backs of…” et cetera. So here, it’s some kind of animal that lives in the Negev, some kind of snake that lives in southern Israel in the desert, and it describes a flying one. I don’t know what that means, exactly. Does that mean it jumps through the air, like a… In Chicago, where I came from, they had the flying squirrels, where it doesn’t literally fly it just jumps? I don’t know. What’s a flying snake?

Keith: A flying snake, or like the flying fish that you see in the ocean, they truly do fly. They jump out of the water and then they spread… it’s almost like a wing.

Nehemia: Right, it’s like the flying squirrel. It doesn’t flap its wings, but it glides, more technically, in English.

Keith: So not to push you on this issue... I just want to push you on this issue just a little bit. So you have the issue of the fiery snake or whatever, but just the word saraph, in terms of how that word has been used in Scripture, I think it’s in Leviticus, where they’re talking about - might be in Leviticus, might partly be Numbers - where they’re talking about the burning coal that was on the altar. Something like that. Again, you’re the quick computer guy. But when I saw that…

Nehemia: But when I see the root saraph appears 126 times in the Bible, and it means “to burn” and it’s just simply to burn, to burn. So it’s talking about like, Exodus 30:20, “And he took the calf, which they made and he burned it in fire.” That’s the golden calf being burned in fire. So it means to burn. I mean, I guess there he actually melted it.

Keith: I have to write a book about this. I just, I feel it bubbling in my gut. Just kidding. But no, so let me just say this. Look, here’s why this hit me, Nehemia, it was because… We have to back up before we… well, we can’t back up, we’re right here. And it says, “Each of them having six wings, with two he covered his face and with two he covered his feet. And with two he flew.” I mean, so this thing is… talk about weird-looking, whatever this is that’s up there, it’s more than what we would look at as a snake. I mean it’s got hands that are covering its eyes…

Nehemia: Well I think this has been understood, and correctly so, as some type of angelic being.

Keith: Aha! Now we’re talking

Nehemia: Maybe it’s on fire, and that’s why he’s calling it saraphim.

Keith: Yes! That’s what I want to hear!

Nehemia: Maybe it’s not so much a snake as there’s some kind of burning going on with it.

Keith: There’s some burning that’s going on. So here’s what happened for me, and you’ve kind of given me a little bit of a softball. So what was happening for me is when I looked at the actual description of the fiery snakes and then I went through the same process you did of saying, “Okay, well here’s what we can see with that.” But then when I started looking at the word itself, and then the description, I thought, “I don’t think that these saraphim that are there, that are being described as fire with these hands that are covering their face and whatever,” I just think that it’s something that’s taking place up in heaven. And here, Isaiah has given us this picture, which we can’t find... We don’t see this anywhere else.

Nehemia: That’s significant because in English you have saraphim, which are a type of angel. I don’t know if everybody knows about, but I think it’s pretty well known. There’s talk about how, discussions about how that’s one of the types of angels in heaven, but the only place in the entire Bible where saraphim refers to a type of angel is this passage in Isaiah.

Keith: That’s what I’m talking about. And that’s why I said it’s gonna be hard for me to get out of this, because I get this sort of thing that happens to me when we start talking about images and discussions, pictures, where there’s a description of what’s happening in that dimension. And I use that word, “that dimension” because in the old days they’d say, “Look up to heaven.” But see, I’m upside down on the earth right now, so when I look up, I’m looking down to hell, according to the description that I would want. No, this is the way I was taught. This is the way I was taught. You look down, it’s hell. You look up, it’s heaven.

But of course, I’m down here under the earth looking up and I’m looking down and you’re somewhere where you’re looking up and… I think you’re looking up.

Nehemia: I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Keith: But the point is that this is… You don’t know about this because you come from a different tradition.

Nehemia: But in Isaiah… so here’s a little interesting tidbit. So in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Tanakh, it has in the Greek “seraphim”, it doesn’t translate it, it just transliterates it because they considered it to be a proper name, the name of these beings. But then in the Targum, which was a Jewish translation to Aramaic, it translates it as Shamashim Kadishim, which means like holy ministers, ministering angels.

Keith: Yeah. So whatever they are, he gives us this description and then it says, “And one called out to another and said,” and in English it says, “Holy, holy, holy.” Now I asked you about this before. Can you tell us where else we get three words in a row? Three of the same word in a row? I mean, he is so amazing.

Nehemia: I don’t even know how theoretically I would find that. That’s a good question.

Keith: I’ve done it before Nehemia, you can certainly do it real quick. I had done this before, where I looked and I said, “Okay, where are the examples where you have three nouns?”

Nehemia: The same noun.

Keith: Yeah, three of the same noun. And there is another example, and I wish I could say it off the top of my head, but this certainly is pretty amazing, what he’s speaking of, what they are speaking of falling back at one another about is the holiness of Yehovah and that it couldn’t just say “Holy is He,” couldn’t just say, “Holy, holy is He,” but, “Holy, holy, holy is Yehovah Tsavot and the whole earth is full of His glory.” And I said, that’s why it’s hard for me to… I know you want to get to the end, but I just...

Nehemia: That’s not going to happen, is it?

Keith: Because I want to sit in the fact that they could say powerful, powerful, powerful; amazing, amazing, amazing; omnipotent, omnipotent, omnipotent. But it’s this word “holy”. And of course, I don’t know, you may have already decided what… I said I’d let you pick the Word of the Week, but I mean Kadosh three times in the row - it’s crying to be the Word of the Week.

Nehemia: It’s got to be. So the root Koof-Dalet-Shin. Every word in Hebrew, as we said, has a three-letter root, Koof-Dalet-Shin, which means holy. Which really means… people say, “Oh, set apart.” But that’s actually part of it. It’s “set apart and above”. Because you could set something apart for destruction, and Hebrew has a word for that, charam - Chet-Resh-Mem. But this is set apart and above. So Yehovah’s holy, holy, holy. Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh.

Now here’s where we have a little confusion, because many people will know the word kodesh, like the word Ruach HaKodesh, which is the Holy Spirit. So here’s kodesh, and this is kadosh. So what’s the difference? Quite simply, kadosh is an adjective, kodesh is a noun, and the difference is that you can have a feminine, kadosha, for a female. Here’s Kadosh for Yehovah in the masculine.

And then you also have Kadesh, which is the prayer in Jewish tradition they say over a dead person. That’s an Aramaic form of the word. There’s also Kiddush, sanctification. And that is the prayer that Jews will say on Friday night and Shabbat lunch, over a cup of wine. So we have all these words that all come from the root Koof-Dalet-Shin which is to sanctify.

In the last context, in the Shabbat prayer, it comes from the verse that talks about, “remember the Shabbat lekadsho”, to sanctify it, to make it kadosh. Here it’s speaking about Yehovah being kadosh, kadosh, kadosh. Yes.

Keith: So can you give me an explanation…

Nehemia: … and I love it here, I’m just looking at the Greek, I still have the Greek open, and it says hagios, hagios, hagios, which is three times “holy, holy, holy” in Greek. And people may know that from that building in Istanbul, which is the Hagia Sofia, which is that famous church, now a mosque. And there’s hagia, Hagia Sophia means “the holy wisdom”. Here, Yehovah is called in Greek in the Septuagint hagios, hagios, hagios, “holy, holy, holy”. So why is it three times, Keith? Can you give the theological explanation of why it’s three times?

Keith: I’ll tell you why I think it’s three times. I think it’s three times because this description is describing who Yehovah is. “He was, He is, He shall be.” It’s like saying He’s holy with the was, He’s holy with the is, He’s holy with the shall be. I have to tell you something. When I look at this word and I want to throw something out to you again.

You know Nehemia, I make fun of you sometimes, “I’m Nehemia Gordon from the Hebrew University.” But we’ve had these conversations, and I think the most recent one we had was in Smithfield, North Carolina, where someone will say, “Let’s have a conversation about the Hebrew,” and Nehemia sticks his chest out and adjusts his chair and he’s ready to have these conversations. And this is hilarious to me - I’m going to say it. So in the conversation, someone will say… and this is not the only time this has happened. It happens a lot. Someone will say, “Well, now, I want to ask a Hebrew question.” Now, there’s no question in the statement. So what they’ll do is they’ll say, “Now the Hebrew word for such and such and such and such.” And then you’ll stick your chest out and say, “Well, actually that’s an adjective.” No, don’t confuse me with facts. I’ve got an entire theological issue.

Nehemia: I’ve taught on this. That’s my favorite line when people say, “But I’ve taught on this. I mean, I’m committed to what I’ve already said publicly about it, so I don’t care what the truth is.”

Can I just jump to Revelation chapter 4, verse 8, would you allow me to do that? I know that’s your book, but I want to jump there. There was a vision described there, and it says “And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him, and they were full of eyes within, and they rest not day and night saying ‘Hagios, hagios, hagios, holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was and is and is to come.’” Haya, Hoveh, Yihiyeh, Yehovah. Can I get excited about that?

Keith: I want to… I appreciate the fact that you went to Revelation, and you can say it’s my book, who’s book, whatever. But the point is, what I liked about that particular… I was trying to help you say, could you find a time in the Bible where there are three words, and that’s the other example that’s actually in Revelation, where he uses the word hagios hagios hagios, but then goes on to explain “was, is, and shall be.”

So I guess to me what was powerful about that is again, who is this holy one? He is the was, He is the is and He is the shall be. So I mean, I’ve heard so many different conversations about this, but what I loved about the passage is just the picture of them saying what they’re saying. Of course, I can’t get past the fact that Yeshua himself said, Yitkadesh shimcha, Your name Kadash, Your name is holy, is to be sanctified. And he’s also taking that three-letter root and putting it in that form.

So it really does mean… it means more than just, “Ah, it’s a holy moment.” You know, this is an adjective. He’s literally saying this is who He is. We’re describing who Yehovah Tzaba’ot, Lord of Hosts, is and the Earth being full of His glory. So then verse 6:5, I don’t know if you want to move on or not, if we can.

Nehemia: Yes, we’ve got to keep going. And then I’ve got some things to say about the passage in general. But, let’s go.

Keith: Okay, awesome. It says, “And I said, ‘Woe is me for I am ruined because I’m a man of unclean lips and I live among a people of unclean lips.’” And if I’m thinking right here… yes, no, no. Yeah, it’s unclean. “For my eyes have seen the king.” And just in case there’s any confusion of who that Adonai was that he saw, he says, “I’ve seen the king,” the king, and who is the king? Yehovah Tzava’ot, Yehovah of Hosts, and who are those hosts, you know, but those angels and all of them around, that they’re just in awe of who He is. Like we should be in awe who He is.

Nehemia: So here I’ve got to stop - and there’s a bunch more - but I’ve got to stop here because of the words “ra’u einai” my eyes have seen. It says literally, “For, the king, Yehovah of Hosts, ra’u einai - my eyes saw.” “They saw, my eyes,” literally.

So the first thing that pops into my head and the first association I have, and the struggle I have, is Exodus 33, verse 20. And I don’t have an answer. Sometimes, certainly in the Jewish tradition, we say sometimes the question could be more important than the answer, because the question is a fact and it shows you actually understood what you read. The answer is a theory. It might be true, it might not be true.

But in Exodus 33:20, Moses asks God to see Him. He wants to see God, and then it says, “Vayomer” “and God said, ‘Lo tucha lirot et panai’” “You cannot see My face.” “Ki lo yirani Ha’adam vechai” “For man cannot see Me and live.”

Then it goes on to say he saw His back. I have no idea what that means. We’ve talked about that in the original Torah Pearls, I literally don’t know what it means. But here, he sees God. I don’t understand - I thought you can’t see God. And I really don’t have an answer.

Keith: What do you mean you don’t have an answer? You don’t, you haven’t studied this? I mean, I have an answer for this. Of course.

Nehemia: I have studied it. Having studied it, I know there’s no answer. So Exodus 24:10 compounds the problem, because you might say, “Well, at the time of Ezekiel they were able to see Him but at the time of Exodus they couldn’t.” No, Exodus 24:10, it says, “Vayeru et Elohei Yisrael” “And they saw the God of Israel, vetachat ragav kema’ase livnat vasapir” “And under His feet was like the work of sapphire brickwork” “Uke’etzem hashamayim latohar” “And like the very essence of the heavens for purity.”

So they’re probably seeing something similar to what Isaiah – I say possibly - something similar to what Isaiah is seeing. At the very least, they’re seeing Yehovah sitting on a throne. Why do I say that? And I guess it doesn’t say a throne, but they’re seeing something under his feet. I’m trying to envision that, and I’m thinking, “Okay, He’s sitting on His chair, on a throne, and under His feet they’re seeing this sapphire brickwork and the purity of heaven.” I don’t even know what that means, but they’re seeing God. What is this? I thought you can’t see God and live. So what’s the answer? Give me the Methodist answer, or the Keith answer.

Keith: No, I don’t have an answer for that. You know, it’s funny, when I’m reading it I think about things like this. He says, “With the train of his robe filling the Temple,” or when it says the… what do you call it? The sapphire, whatever goes under His feet, and Moses saying, “and he saw His backside,” and I’m sorry. No, I’m sorry. Even Elijah, when he had the interaction with Yehovah and he came in the quiet. What I’m sort of wondering when I’m reading those things, is I’m wondering about what portion, not “portion” meaning like a little piece of Him, but what portion of Him they saw, and does that represent the collective, they saw Him? I saw a portion of Him, I saw the train, I saw His feet, I saw the backside, I saw, you know, whatever it is that they say and ain’t so. You know, I don’t know. I mean, I just think the part that kind of caught me was that even one little piece of Him, saying that the entire… just the train of His robe filled the Temple. Was He in the Temple or was He just there with the robe? I mean, it’s like, what portion of Him did they see?

Nehemia: Just so people understand… You might say, “Oh, well they saw all these different things, and everybody saw something different,” which is definitely possible. But we have these descriptions, and I think I mentioned this - 1 Kings 22, Ezekiel 1 and then other places, Daniel 7. So for example, Ezekiel 1:26, “Above the expanse over their heads was a semblance of a throne, an appearance like a sapphire.” So there’s that word sapphire again. “And on top upon the semblance of a throne, there was a semblance of a human form.”

So to be fair, when I say I’m reading Exodus and I envision God sitting on a throne, I’m actually reading Exodus through the filter of Ezekiel. If I read Exodus by itself, I might not have gotten to that conclusion, but it’s hard for me not to read these together and say, “Okay, they’re all seeing the same thing.” I’m reminded of this saying of the rabbis, who struggled over this. They said, “Why is it that Isaiah has this very brief…?” I mean, let’s look how long Isaiah describes what he saw. So really it’s verses 1 and 2, and you could say verse 3, right? So at the most, it’s a few verses. Ezekiel goes into great detail about this. The entire chapter 1 is describing… I mean, I was reading this morning chapter 1 in preparation for this study with you, and it hit me. He doesn’t even get to the opening speech in chapter 1, he’s just describing - and of course, obviously the chapters were added later - but he’s got 28 verses until he finally says “Ve’eshma kol medaber”, the last three words of Ezekiel chapter 1, it’s in verse 28, it says, “And I heard a voice saying…” And then chapter 2 is what was said. So the first 27 or 27 1/2 verses or 28 verses are him describing this vision.

Now compare that to Isaiah, who jumps right into it. He hears them speak saying, “Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh.” It’s pretty short. And so there’s a really interesting saying of the rabbis who try to understand why it is that Isaiah described one thing and Ezekiel describes something else. Did they see two different things? And there, again the question is maybe more important than the answer because we don’t know if they saw the same thing or two different things.

The rabbis come along and they say, “Well, no, they actually saw the same thing, the same exact thing.” Then they say, “So why was it described differently?” And their answer - I think it’s very interesting, their answer - they say, “Well, Ezekiel was like a villager who saw the king, and Isaiah was like a city dweller who saw the king,” someone who lived in the capital. And so Ezekiel is all excited and he’s describing in great detail and everything he saw, whereas Isaiah is saying, “Yes, I saw Him, and there was the throne, and let’s get to what He actually said.” Meaning that maybe they saw the same thing, but they described it from different perspectives.

I have another possible explanation, and this kind of dovetails with what we talked about at the beginning of the episode, of my Asperger’s versus those who don’t have Aspergers and are called neurotypical. So maybe Ezekiel was neurotypical and Isaiah had Aspergers. And so Isaiah sees this and says, “Yes, that was God.” And Ezekiel’s like, “Oh, my eyes saw God, and He has this and He has that!”

Keith: You’re not serious. You’re making that up.

Nehemia: No, I’m dead serious. I think Ezekiel was neurotypical and Isaiah had Aspergers. It makes perfect sense.

Keith: Wow.

Nehemia: For those who want to know more about my Aspergers, there’s a wonderful study that I’ve shared with my Support Team, entitled The Fundamental Flaw in Judaism, and go listen to it. I talk about it in great detail.

Keith: Now what does this… you mean you have something separate that you do? What are you talking about?

Nehemia: So, you know I’ve got my ministry, Makor Hebrew Foundation, and my website NehemiasWall.com. I’ve got, I think, over 200 hours of videos and audio teachings, and hundreds of pages of online teachings. But then I do this separate thing, the Support Team Studies, for those who support my ministry. It’s kind of just a way of saying thank you for those who are supporting my ministry, and one of the teachings is called The Fundamental Flaw of Judaism. It talks about some things I realized about myself, and it helped me see one of the issues going on in the Jewish tradition that I wasn’t able to see until I’d gone through some things. That’s what I call The Fundamental Flaw of Judaism. People can go to my website and find out about the Support Team. One of the things I do want to share with people is, we’re now… I think this is being broadcast in mid-January. We’re obviously pre-recording it.

Keith: This is going to be broadcast on February 7th.

Nehemia: February 7th, even better. Okay. So in March, we’ve got this thing that we do every year, and it’s called the Aviv Search. We get people together in Israel and we travel throughout the land and we look for the earliest ripening barley. Then once we find that the barley is ripening, that there’s a field of barley that can be harvested within two weeks’ time, then the next new moon is what’s called Hodesh Ha’aviv, or the new moon of the Aviv in Deuteronomy 16, verse 1. This is something that we do every year, and it’s rather costly. We’ve got to rent cars and pay for gas at like $8 or $9 or $10 a gallon, it varies.

And so I do want to encourage people to pray about making a donation to the Makor Hebrew Foundation. You can do that through NehemiasWall.com and you can give a targeted donation specifically to the Aviv Search, if that’s what you want to do.

Keith: Awesome. Okay. All right. Well it says here, Nehemia, after he makes this description, he says, “Then one of the seraphim,” and this is actually what caught my attention regarding the word, the saraph being this fiery being, whatever it is that flew to me with a burning coal in his hand. I’m thinking, “Wait, why isn’t his hand burning?” He’s got a burning coal.

Nehemia: The hand of the seraph?

Keith: The seraph – because the hand itself is fire.

Nehemia: Or he’s an angel.

Keith: Well, okay, but I’m just saying there’s actually, you know… it sort of jumps off the page. It’s like, well, here’s this flying burning thing that’s holding this burning coal in his hand, and he’s bringing it to Isaiah to burn him. And it says, “He touched my mouth and said, ‘Behold, this has touched your lips and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven.’” Now is that because of the fire or because of where it came from? What was the reason for the burning coal? I mean, is it that the fire purifies? Is this something else? Is there a hidden meaning here? Is there a translation problem? What are we looking at?

Nehemia: We definitely have an image, throughout the Tanakh, in a number of places of the way that they would refine silver. They would take this ore and they would burn it in a crucible and they would burn off what’s called the dross or in Hebrew, the “sig” and they would extract the silver from it. The byproduct, the bad stuff, would include lead and tin, and then the good stuff that was left over, that would be the silver. So there’s this image of refining through fire, absolutely, in the Tanakh. And the first thing that I think of as a modern person is, “Oh, you can cauterize a wound,” which means you burn a wound with fire and you kill all the bacteria. I don’t think they knew about that back then. So we really have to think more in terms of this image of the refiner’s fire rather than cauterizing a wound.

Keith: You’re saying that people saw this and interpreted it that way?

Nehemia: Oh, I think that’s behind this image, meaning, you might think, “Oh, a fire is coal and that makes you dirty. And so it doesn’t make you clean.” So where did they get the idea that a fire can make you clean?

Keith: Oh, I see.

Nehemia: I think it must have come from the refining of silver and other ores, not just silver. You also refine copper that way. We saw that when we were in Timna in southern Israel, at the ancient copper mine.

Keith: Oh man. I’ll tell you what – that copper mine, what an amazing experience that was. Goodness gracious.

Nehemia: I mean, maybe if you have a different thought on it, please share it.

Keith: No, no, no, no. I saw it from the issue of fire burning away that which was really impure.

Nehemia: Right, of course, it’s burning away what is impure. But what does it burn away that’s impure? I think that the most immediate ancient association would have been the refining of silver, and I’m kind of cheating, because in other places Isaiah says specifically, “Burning off the dross and extracting the silver.” So I’ll admit I’m cheating, but that’s something that Isaiah specifically used.

Keith: It’s called context.

Nehemia: Okay. It’s context. It’s part of his world, his cultural context. But I am reading that into this passage. It doesn’t say that explicitly. Look - in a way, this is a metaphor, and maybe you could argue it’s a literal metaphor if there’s such a thing. There isn’t. It’s a metaphor in that fire cleanses, and so he literally - and this is something the prophets did, they’d say “You’re going to be subjugated under the yoke of Babylon.” So they bring a literal yoke and show it to the people. It’s kind of like a witnessing tool, so to speak. But here, God is using a witnessing tool up in heaven.

Keith: It’s interesting, earlier you used a verse, we were just talking about this. Just how can I say it? The way that it connects to what you do. The words and how the words are used, and that’s a really amazing part of your ministry. And people ask me, why do you go through the process? Why do you guys do all this and spend all of this effort to do what you’re doing? Whether it’s… we’re talking about now needing to add some time to our Israel tour, and we’re going to have to meet earlier to record, and why would we take trains, planes, and automobiles and fly here and go there?

For me, ultimately, the reason is because of the ability to actually discuss with you Scripture and its meaning in language, history, and context. I really do think that that is just such a gift that’s been given. I mean, you’ve been given a gift to be able to study in the land of Israel at the best school in the entire world as it pertains to the Hebrew Bible - Hebrew University.

Nehemia: Amen.

Keith: I mean, it’s just an amazing experience. So I have to say again, that’s why I do this. You know, I feel called to help people learn the Word of God, and I always say that you want to get people smarter, better, wiser, sharper, around you, so that whatever it is that you decide that you want to do, you want to do it at the best and the highest level that you can. So that really is what’s exciting about this. Like you said, your context, “I read in Isaiah where it also says blah, blah, blah.” And you know, again, the Bible is not just a part of, it’s the main aspect of what you’ve committed your life to understanding in its language, history, and context.

Nehemia: Are you there caller?

Keith: Yes, I’m here. Can you hear me?

Nehemia: Oh, I can hear you now. This is why we need to go to Israel.

Keith: That was a close one. Like I said, I’m not going to, no, no, no, no. Hey, let me move on. I want to go to 6:8. Can I move on to 6:8?

Nehemia: Please, yes, I think we’re going to have to jump.

Keith: “Then I heard the voice of Yehovah saying, ‘Whom shall I send and who will go for us?’ Then I said, ‘Here I am, send me.’” I have to stop and say, this verse has been a verse that defined for me what I would do in this upcoming year. In 2014, you and I were on tour together. We were in a number of different places. This verse was actually up in Canby, Oregon, and I shared a message about this verse, “Whom shall I send? And here I am, send me,” in English. It says in Hebrew, “hineni” “behold I, I’m here”, go ahead. Whatever you want to do with me.

For me, Nehemia, this for me has been a big reason. In fact, while people are listening to this message right now on February 7th, I’m actually, as a result of saying “hineni”, somewhere in the bush of Africa, sharing with people who have asked for information on God’s time, God’s Torah and His name. And so I’m over in Africa right now. If all goes well, and hopefully planes don’t get lost and whatever, but we’re recording this in advance so that when this goes up on the 7th, I’ll be there.

And Biblical Foundations Academy International, like I said before… our name, is what we do. We want to share around the world. And we’ve had so many people from so many parts of the world that have responded to the message at BFAinternational.com. I want to challenge people to go to the site.

I’m not going to talk about resources. I want to talk about just the opportunity for you to be exposed to what we’re doing. It’s so amazing what’s happened. Like I said, February 7th as this is up, I’m actually in Namibia for the next couple of weeks, and then after that, I’ll be back here celebrating in this part of the world the Chinese New Year, which is… you went through this, Nehemia, so you could talk about it. But one of the reasons that I’m also doing that is that we’ve been working on a project called Ancient Time from China, and I just have to say it’s just phenomenal to see how big God is, and the way His handprint is in different societies and different ways of how you can see different things that are even biblical concepts. So I’ll be here for that, and then Nehemia and I will be together where we’ll share.

But BFAinternational.com - what we’re trying to do right now is to inspire people around the world to build a biblical foundation for their faith. Sometimes that can be done through the internet. Sometimes it can be done through television, sometimes it’s got to be face to face. Sometimes this can be done through… whether it’s something that’s written material or social media. We’re using everything we can.

And now let me just stop and say one more thing that I just have to make this announcement today, on February 7th. Today BFA is in concert with Israel’s Bible Reading Plan, where they’re actually doing a plan of reading through Breaking Israel News and Israel 365, and they came to us and said, “Can we use the Scripture Bytes, the 10-episode Scripture Bytes on the Ten Commandments?”, which by the way Nehemia, is the parallel for Torah Pearls. The Ten Commandments is connected to this section. The 10-part series is actually being… we’ve given that series to Breaking Israel News and Israel 365, and they’re doing something, I don’t know how they’re doing it because I’m in Africa, but basically today, right now on February 7th, they’ve somehow connected Scripture Bytes with what they’re doing in getting people to read the Bible. So I hopefully will get to talk more about that when we’re in Israel, when we’re together.

But there’s so much has happened, so much that’s going on, and I have to say thank you to all the people that have at least taken a look at BFAinternational.com. Your support and your involvement has really launched us to a place that I just am overwhelmed. “Hineni”, here I am, send me. You too Nehemia, be sent!

Nehemia: So that was the last known recording of Keith Johnson before he disappeared in the Kalahari.

Keith: I would laugh about that, but you know, it’s no small thing.

Nehemia: Where are you going? The Okavango Delta? I’m never gonna see him again.

Keith: Let’s move on. Let’s move on.

Nehemia: I’m going to have to make an executive decision and ask that… we did last week, where we asked people to read Devorah, the thing of Judges chapter 5. I’m going to ask people to read the rest of 6 and 7 and ask that we jump ahead to chapter 9 verses 5 to 6, because we could speak for an hour on that section.

Keith: …6:9 and 6:10 about the fact that this is paralleled in Acts chapter 28 where Paul says, “Go to the people and say, ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding. You’ll be ever seeing…’” I just think it’s an interesting passage. Just use it for the people that weren’t listening…

Nehemia: Isaiah Chapter 9 verses 5 to 6. They can read about that on your blog. BFAinternational.com. Let’s move on. No, we’ve to talk about this, and we’re trying to keep this under an hour and a little over an hour, but we could speak for an hour just on these two verses. Can you please read them?

Keith: No, go ahead. Read them.

Nehemia: No, you read them. I think we really need to read these in different translations. I’m going to ask to do that.

Keith: Give me the exact verse Nehemia. What do you want us to read? 9:5-6.

Nehemia: All right, so here’s something really strange that happened. So it’s Isaiah chapter 6, and it starts in verse 1 and it goes all the way to chapter 7 verse 6, and that’s bizarre because 7:6 is in the middle of an account.

Keith: Exactly.

Nehemia: It’s in the middle of a discussion, and then it just cuts off and jumps over to Isaiah 9:5-6, and well, wait a minute, we just skipped the second half of chapter 7 which I know for the Christians is the moneyball. That’s their favorite verse in the whole Bible. Am I right about that? That Isaiah 7:14… Like, you could probably…

Keith: You’re saying it like everyone has it memorized.

Nehemia: No. 7:14, that’s the verse that they say is a virgin and Jews say is a young woman, that’s actually not in the section, meaning because they skipped over that. They skipped over all of … chapter 7 verses 7 through 25 and then all of chapter 8, which was 23 verses. They jump in the first four verses of chapter 9 and then it’s verses 5 to 6. Oh, I guess there’s some confusion here because in the English it’s different verse numbers, is that right?

Keith: Yeah. So that’s what I wanted to ask you. So what are your verse numbers?

Nehemia: Okay. So it’s “for a child is born to us,” which is verse 5 in the Hebrew. I think, is that chapter 9 verse 6 in the English?

Keith: 9:6 in English.

Nehemia: So it’s 9:6-7, which in Hebrew is 9:5-6.

Keith: Oh, okay, gotcha, gotcha. You want me to read the NIV, 6 to 7?

Nehemia: Please. Yes.

Keith: “For to us a child is born, and to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders and he shall be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He shall reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of Yehovah Almighty, LORD Almighty, will accomplish this.” Amen. May it be.

Nehemia: Okay. So, what is the name of this child?

Keith: Well it says his name here.

Nehemia: Yes. I’ve got to say that it seems pretty clear to me that they jumped ahead to this so that they’d end on a good note. Like, they didn’t want to be reading all day. Sort of like what we’re doing. So their understanding, the people who set these up, the traditional readings, they were reading in chapter 7, and really chapter 6 was their parallel to the revelation at Sinai. Right? So there’s this revelation, all of Israel hears God speaking at Mount Sinai.

Keith: Yitro.

Nehemia: In Yitro, exactly. Then, it’s the Ten Commandments, that’s the section that’s read in the synagogue in the Torah, and then the parallel section is Isaiah having his revelation of what God looks like in heaven, I guess, so one of them is the bottom of the mountain, the other is at the top of the mountain, so to speak. But then they couldn’t just end there, so they jumped and they read part of chapter 7, which you have to wonder why they did that. And it’s strange to me that they’d read the first six verses of chapter 7 without reading the rest of it. To me that’s like nails on the chalkboard. Why read the first six verses if you’re not going to finish it? And it’s not actually connected to Yitro like, why bother? So then they jumped ahead to... it’s not connected to the Torah portion, those six verses.

And then they jump ahead to 9:6-7, or in Hebrew, 9:5-6, and I think they ended there because they understood this to be a prophecy about the Messiah. So you always want to end on a good note. We read about how there’s this problem in Isaiah 7 with the two kings who are coming to attack the Jewish nation. Judah, Pekach, who’s the king of Israel, and Ritzin or Risin, who is the king of Syria, of Aram.

Keith: And they fought and they could not do anything...

Nehemia: Okay. You can’t end with that. That’s like a sad story. So they’re ending here with the Messiah will come and there will be world peace and forever, peace without end on the throne of David. So that makes sense why they ended with that. But it doesn’t make sense why they cut off in the middle of 7. I know some people are out there, “Oh, because they didn’t want the verse about the virgin read.” Actually, if you read that verse in its context - and maybe we shouldn’t open this can of worms - but if you read the verse in the context, it’s something from the time of King Ahaz. But what about these verses – verses 6 to 7 or 5 to 6 in the…?

Keith: We won’t allow you to throw water on these verses, Nehemia.

Nehemia: I don’t know what that means - to throw water on these. Is that like a metaphor about baptizing the verses?

Keith: No, you’re going to take away our excitement about these verses?

Nehemia: Oh no, I’m excited about the verses. Peace without end?! Who is not going to be excited about peace without end on the throne of David?! Hallelujah! But what’s the name of the child? That’s what I want to ask. Does he have one name? Does he have four names? What’s his name?

Keith: He will be called “Wonderful counselor” in English, a mighty God, everlasting father, prince of peace.

Nehemia: So that’s four names.

Keith: He’s got four different titles.

Nehemia: I know some people say it’s like seven names or something like that, because they go on in the next verse. But definitely in verse… in this verse, verse 6, verse 5 in the Hebrew, according to your reading, there are four names. I want to read you the JPS translationof these verses. 9:5-6 in the Hebrew, and in JPS, it’s actually 5 and 6. They are numbered according to the Hebrew. “For a child has been born to us. A son has been given us, and authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named, ‘The mighty God is planning grace, the eternal father, a peaceable ruler.’” That’s his name, “The mighty God is planning grace, the eternal father, a peaceable ruler.” So he’s got one name. It’s kind of a run-on sentence.

Then the next verse, “In token of abundant authority and have peace without limit upon David’s throne in kingdom that it may be firmly established, in justice and in equity, now and evermore, the zeal of the LORD of Hosts” in Hebrew, Yehovah, “shall bring this to pass.” It’s a little different. I have news for people. That’s not what it says in the Hebrew. The JPS is not what it says in the Hebrew, and I’m kind of surprised that they translated that way. I don’t have an explanation of why they decided to translate something which is just different than the Hebrew, when the Hebrew was perfectly clear and good, and just out of curiosity -and I didn’t even look at this beforehand - I’m going to pull up the 1917 JPS, because what I just read you is the 1985 JPS, and I’m curious to see if they have something different there and you can find this online.

All right. So the 1917 JPS says, “For a child is born unto us. A son is given unto us and the government is upon his shoulder and his name is Pele Joaz El Gibor Abi Ad Sar Shalom, that the government may be increased and of peace. There’d be no end upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom to establish it and uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth, even forever, the zeal of Hashem of Hosts doth perform this.” That’s in this online version, what it says.

Okay, so he’s got this really long name, which has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight words in the 1917 JPS, Pele Joaz El Gibor Abi Ad Sar Shalom. That’s his name. Interesting. So that’s not what it says in Hebrew or either. I just don’t understand why nobody translated to what it actually says in Hebrew. I looked at the Jewish commentaries, and they understood it. It’s very clear what it says in Hebrew. I don’t understand why nobody translated that way. I’m genuinely perplexed, really. Can I tell you what it says in Hebrew?

Keith: Please.

Nehemia: First of all, I’m going to ask you, because you’ve studied Hebrew; in your translation, it says “He will be called,” right? Is that what it says in your NIV?

Keith: Yes. Okay.

Nehemia: Now, what is the word translated as “he will be called”?

Keith: Let’s see here. Well, actually it says, “His name will be called.”

Nehemia: Does it say, “will be called”?

Keith: “His name will be called.”

Nehemia: So in Hebrew, does it say “His name will be called”?

Keith: Vayikra, his name was called.

Nehemia: No, vayikra is “and he called his name.”

Keith: Past. Yes. Past.

Nehemia: No, it’s not passive. It’s active.

Keith: No – past.

Nehemia: Okay, past. “He will be called” is a future passive. In Hebrew, we would say veyikareh. But it says “vayikra shmo” “and he called his name.” So this is how it’s understood in Jewish sources, strangely not translated that way by the JPS, which I can’t explain. But in all the Jewish sources I was able to find they unanimously understand this “Vayikra shmo Pele Yoetz El Gibor Avi Ad Sar Shalom”, which translates, “The wonderful Counselor, the great God, the eternal Father called his name Prince of Peace.” That’s what it says in Hebrew, and that’s what every Jewish source I could find translated that way, except for the JPS. But other than that, the traditional Jewish sources all translate it that the subject of the verse is - or this part of the verse is - a wonderful Counselor, mighty God, eternal Father. And the object is Prince of Peace, meaning the wonderful Counselor, mighty God, eternal Father called his name, Prince of Peace.

Keith: I’m going to ask you to do something. I mean, I think this would be really good. Do you see, as you’re looking at this - and this is just a question - do you see anything in terms of even the accents that would lead toward that? In other words, what would be the key thing that would make you say that the verse itself is not divided the way that it’s being divided? In other words, is there something that just says to you, “Oh, clearly it ends there,” and then Sar Shalom is what he will be called?

Nehemia: Otherwise, who calls his name? There’s no subject of the sentence. He calls his name “Pele Yoetz El Gibor Aviad Sar Shalom.” Who’s he? That’s why they had to translate it in the passive. Right? His name is called... well if it’s passive, then we won’t have a problem. Right. So all of a sudden, he called? And I guess it’s possible, but... This just makes more sense to me.

Keith: And so one last time, I mean, that was worth it. That really is a pearl. So let me just say this one last time, if you were to translate this in the most clear way, based on what you’re seeing here, how would you translate it?

Nehemia: I would translate it, “And the wonderful Counselor, mighty God, eternal Father called his name Prince of Peace.” “The name of the child who would be born is called by the wonderful Counselor, mighty God, eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

Keith: We’re going to look at that. We’re going to slow down and take a closer look.

Nehemia: And like I said, the JPS 1917, 1985 - they don’t translate it that way. So I want to make this clear. It’s not that I have some theological problems, so I’m forcing some different translation, because the JPS, two different versions of it, had no problem with the name being “Pele Yoetz El Gibbor Aviad Sar Shalom.” The reason they didn’t have a problem with that… obviously… look, let’s call it out - Christians will bring this verse to prove that Jesus is the eternal father, that he’s also the Prince of Peace. That’s obviously what Christians have said.

What’s interesting is - and correct me if I’m wrong here - but as far as I can tell, this is not quoted anywhere in the New Testament. Nowhere in the New Testament does it claim that this verse refers to Jesus or Yeshua. Would you agree with that?

Keith: I don’t have that off the top of my head. I could get back to you on that.

Nehemia: Okay. Well, I’d like you to get back to the people on that, because from what I can find, this is not quoted anywhere in the New Testament. It is quoted by early Christian sources. I want to read to you from the Word Biblical Commentary, which is a Christian commentary out of Texas, outside of Dallas. It says, “Traditional Christian interpreters have correctly noted,” of course, they’re Christian, “have correctly noted that 9:5-6 is part and parcel of royal liturgy and therefore used it as a messianic text like the Royal Psalms. This is achieved by lifting the verses out of context and changing the genre of the larger work to match.”

Kieth: Oh boy.

Nehemia: That’s amazing that they say that. And then they go on, and I’ll skip ahead. They say, “This is legitimate. Division apparently quotes from the other contexts, but it’s important to keep in mind that the verses do not function as messianic predictions in this context.” Very interesting. Anyway, I think maybe it is prophetic, or that it is messianic, and certainly the rabbis who came along and put this as the end of the Haftarah portion, of the Prophets portion, they definitely understood this to be referring to the Messiah of the Line of David, and understandably, because verse 7, or 6 in the Hebrew says, “The government will be upon his shoulders.” Let’s see, hold on a second. “Lemarbeh hamisrah.” It’s kind of difficult to translate, “And for peace without end upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom to prepare it and to sustain it with a judgment and righteousness from now and forever. The zealousness of Yehovah of Hosts will do it.” I don’t know how you can read that and say it’s not about the messianic kingdom.

Keith: Is it fair to say, from a common ground standpoint, we could read these two verses, whether they’d be 5 and 6 or 6 and 7, and get excited about the fact that that government will come and that there will be one who reigns, and we’ve just had long discussions about the name of that one who comes. But what’s amazing about it is that this just seems to be something that I could see why they’d want to end on that note. And why even for us. I mean, we’re at the end of our time. I think it’s pretty amazing. Go ahead.

Nehemia: We’ve got to go back to verse 6.

Keith: Okay, go ahead.

Nehemia: Okay, so this is one of the things I’ve heard brought up in Jewish-Christian debates. The Christians will say, “Well, this proves that the Messiah will be the eternal father. He’s both the eternal father and the prince of peace.” This is obviously the Christian argument. So, as I said, the New Testament does not make that claim. Traditional Christian commentators and interpreters have made that claim, like if you look at the church fathers. But the New Testament itself, interestingly, is completely silent; it doesn’t make that claim as far as I know.

Secondly, the fact that the JPS was able to translate the name of this messianic figure as, all four of these titles - Pele Yoetz, mighty Counselor - and that’s not really an issue - mighty Counselor, or sorry, wonderful Counselor, mighty God and eternal Father. So how could the Messiah be called Mighty God, wonderful Father, according to the Jewish understanding? And I’m not saying this to try to convince Christians, because obviously people who believe in that doctrine are going to believe it. But I think it’s worthwhile to understand the Jewish perspective, and the Jewish perspective is that we have many figures whose names glorify God. One of my favorites is in the book of Job, where Job has three friends who come and they’re all wrong. At the end, this one man comes along, and his name is Elihu, which means “He is my God.” Now, did Job think that Elihu was his god? Of course not. He was standing and looking at this guy and thought he was very wise, but Elihu, it was just the guy’s name. Eliyahu is the Hebrew name that means Elijah, which is “Yehovah is my God.” So, nobody thought Elijah was God. Now if you want to believe the Messiah is God, don’t pin that on this verse. Because a Jew reading this would never come to that conclusion. We just say, “Okay, his name glorifies God as the Father.” Okay, great. I don’t think that’s what it means. I think the name, or the title, if you will, of the Messiah will be Prince of Peace. But, if you want to say all four titles apply to the Messiah, that doesn’t make him God from the Jewish perspective. Does that make any sense?

Keith: For you, it definitely does. You’ve been waiting all program to do this. This was your big thing. You’ve taken 15 minutes to do it, and now you’re asking me if it makes sense.

Nehemia: No, and really, I think it’s just a matter of understanding the Jewish perspective. Because I certainly understand the Christian perspective. Their perspective is, if the Messiah is called Mighty God and if the Messiah is called eternal Father, that means he is God and he is the Father of creation. But from the Jewish perspective, it’s just a name like many names that glorify God. Like, one of the sons of Aaron who was burned up in the fire, his name was Avihu, which means “He is the father”. So nobody thought he was actually God the Father.

Keith: I’ve got to tell you, what I’m really excited about and I tell folks, so there’s some folks in some corners, but what I love about Prophet Pearls, and every once in a while you’ll bring something up and say, “Well, you know, the Christian view is this…” and that’s always great. I think that’s awesome. Ultimately, the thing that I’m glad that we’re not doing is that we’re not trying to figure out how to have one of those sorts of debates where they do take a verse - and I’ve seen these, whether it’s the anti-missionary or whatever, they go back and forth, back and forth, back and… - and in the end someone says, “seven for him and six for him…” What more than anything fired me up about these couple verses is, I was just reminded, Nehemia, of how far you can go in terms of trying to figure out what the grammar says. I mean, knowing what it says has got to be the starting place, not what you want it to mean. It’s got to be based on what it says. And how do you find out what it says? You’ve got to be able to interact with it in its language, history, and context. And I think that that’s… For me, I’m excited because I was going to go look at it too…

Nehemia: If we were having the Jewish-Christian debate, I would’ve done something completely different, and you could go look in the literature. If you look in the literature, the counter-missionaries are going to say, “Oh, this isn’t even talking about the Messiah. This is King Hezekiah, and therefore it’s completely irrelevant for any discussion of the Messiah, because this is something that was completed and fulfilled in 700 and whatever, B.C. and it’s King Hezekiah.” And I read this and I’m like, “Really guys?” King Hezekiah?

Keith: You disagree with the anti-missionaries…

Nehemia: Absolutely. Not only that, certainly the rabbis who chose this as a section to end, were thinking, “Even if this was King Hezekiah, we’re hoping that it also is a type of the Messiah, and we’re looking for the king who will sit on the throne of David who will literally have peace without end,” because Hezekiah didn’t have peace without end.

Keith: And I’ve got to tell you, here’s what excites me about that - is the thread, the thread. And we’ve been doing Prophet Pearls, now we’re on 17, where we’ve been able to talk about David and we’ve talked about him in his death bed, and we talked about Solomon, we talked about the kingdom and Nachon, and all these things being established. And to me, again, I can look at this and be really, really excited, but I’m going to tell you the challenge. What I did appreciate about it is the challenge to go further, and again, to take apart grammatically to see what it says and to go from there. So I see that as a real positive. I really do. And I really appreciate that. So this was your moneyball. You’ve got to bring us home here.

Nehemia: I just want to read one more passage and then I’m going to end with prayer. There’s a kind of a parallel passage which this makes me think of, which is… And why am I bringing the parallel passage? Because you could come along and say, “Oh no, Nehemia, you’ve left the reservation. You said this is about the Messiah and we want to say…” I’m talking to my Jewish brothers and sisters. They’re going to be upset with me. “Why are you letting… why are you saying this is about the Messiah? Why are you conceding that point? We want to argue it’s about Hezekiah. It’s not about the Messiah.” And I just don’t think that’s correct.

But even if it’s correct, we have another passage which is indisputably about the Messiah, and I want to end with that passage. It’s Ezekiel 37:24, “My servant David shall be king over them and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes. They shall live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, in which your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children should live there forever. And My servant David shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them, and I will bless them and multiply them and will set My sanctuary among them forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them and I will be their God, and they shall be My people, then the nations shall know that I, Yehovah, sanctify Israel when My sanctuary is among them forevermore.” Maybe it’s that I’m reading Isaiah chapter 9:6-7 or 5-6 in the Hebrew, through the lens of Ezekiel 37, it’s possible. But when I read it, I’m seeing the same messenger, there’s going to be this period of eternal peace with a King Messiah, anointed with oil who sits on the throne of David, and may this happen soon. May we all come together soon under the reign of this King Messiah. And that’s my prayer. Yehovah…

Keith: Don’t pray just yet, Nehemia.

Nehemia: I can’t pray?

Keith: Go ahead. No, no. I’m going to let you pray, but I did have a challenge. I do want people… I really think we can’t let this go. I want people to take a look at these verses. I want people to be able to comment, and I especially want to thank our partners, we have partners, Bear Tracks Fellowship. These are our Prophet Pearls Partners. I’m going to ask them, I actually reached out to them and unfortunately because we’re doing this early, I haven’t heard back from them, but I would like for them to be able to put something together. I’d love to add it to our comments regarding not only this verse, but this whole section. Our folks at Bear Tracks Fellowship, that really... do you remember Bear Tracks, Nehemia?

Nehemia: I remember up in the mountains of Colorado, I got altitude sickness.

Keith: We got high and lifted up. I want them to… first of all, I want to thank them, but I want to challenge them to put something together that we can add during this time so that people can read it. Now you can go ahead and bring closure.

Nehemia: Okay. Yehovah, Avinu shebashamayim, Yehovah our Father in heaven, Yehovah Pele Yoetz, Yehovah wonderful Counselor, Yehovah El Gibor, Yehovah almighty God, Yehovah Aviad, Yehovah eternal Father, Yehovah I ask you and I pray to you, Father, let us soon be in Your kingdom with shalom ein ketz peace without end with the Sar Shalom, with the Prince of Peace, sitting al kiseh David ve’al mamlachto, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom. Me’ata ve’ad olam, for now, and forever more. Kinat Yehovah Tzavaot ta’aseh zot, the zealousness of Yehovah of Hosts will do this, and Yehovah may Your zealousness, please Father, Aviad, eternal Father. Please, do this soon, and bring us this peace and our King. Amen.

Keith: Amen.

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Nehemia Gordon's Teachings on the Name of God

The prophet said to the house of David, For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and he will accept the law upon himself to keep it, and his name will be called before the Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, existing forever, "The messiah in whose days peace will increase upon us."

The prophet said to the House of David that a boy was born to us, a son was given to us; and he accepted upon himself to keep the Torah, and his name is called in the presence of the Wonderful Counselor, Almighty God Who Lives Forever, "The Messiah in Whose Days Peace Will Increase Upon Us".

Targum Jonathan, Isaiah 9:6[5] (Nehemia's translation)

The Isaiah Targum, Translated by Bruce Chilton, page 21

Isaiah 6:3

וְקָרָא זֶה אֶל זֶה וְאָמַר קָדוֹשׁ קָדוֹשׁ קָדוֹשׁ יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת מְלֹא כָל הָאָרֶץ כְּבוֹדוֹ:

And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Jeremiah 22:29

אֶרֶץ אֶרֶץ אָרֶץ שִׁמְעִי דְּבַר יְהוָה:

O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.

Ezekiel 21:27[32]


עַוָּה עַוָּה עַוָּה אֲשִׂימֶנָּה גַּם זֹאת לֹא הָיָה עַד בֹּא אֲשֶׁר לוֹ הַמִּשְׁפָּט וּנְתַתִּיו:

I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

The image of "Isaiah's Call" at the top of this page is Courtesy of the Digital Image Archive, Pitts Theology Library, Candler School of Theology, Emory University.

12-year-old Abigail Espinosa from Broomfield, Colorado created the following original artwork for this week's episode of Prophet Pearls:

The post Prophet Pearls #17 – Yitro (Isaiah 6:1-7:6; 9:5-6) appeared first on Nehemia's Wall.