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Money Meets Medicine

164 episodes - English - Latest episode: 9 days ago - ★★★★★ - 120 ratings

On Money Meets Medicine, Dr. Jimmy Turner discusses all things career and finance for physicians. With expert guest discussions, Jimmy tackles the personal finance topics you wish you had learned in medical school.

The MMM podcast will help you tackle your student loans, achieve financial independence, invest for retirement, and decrease your financial stress and burnout.

To get help with free educational content or obtaining own-occupation disability insurance from a source you know you can trust, visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com

Background: Dr. Turner is a practicing anesthesiologist at Wake Forest, author of The Physician Philosopher's Guide to Personal Finance, and Chief Medical Officer at Attend.

For more information, visit moneymeetsmedicine.com

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Episodes

Significant Others & Financial Red Flags

March 20, 2024 05:00 - 32 minutes - 22.5 MB

Looking to get own-occupation disability insurance from a source you can trust? Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com/disability Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’s Guide to Personal Finance?  Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com References: Should couples share finances? https://academic.oup.com/jcr/article-abstract/50/4/704/7077142 New York Times: Article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/13/business/money-dating-questions.html

How Liquid are Your Investments?

March 13, 2024 05:00 - 22 minutes - 17.2 MB

With some investing, you will not need the money very soon. This requires liquidity, or the ability to quickly get your investments into cash.  Join in as Justin Harvey CFP and Dr. Jimmy Turner discuss the importance of liquidity when it comes to your investments. Every doctor needs own-occupation disability insurance.  To get it from a source you can trust? Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com/disability Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’s Guide to Personal Finance?  Visit h...

Do Doctors Need a Trust

March 06, 2024 06:00 - 30 minutes - 21.4 MB

One thing is sure. All of us will die at some point.  The question is what happens to your assets? To your financial legacy?  That is where trusts come in.  In this episode, Justin Harvey CFP and Dr. Jimmy Turner discuss all things trusts: irrevocable versus revocable trusts, living trusts, and more. Every doctor needs own-occupation disability insurance.  To get it from a source you can trust? Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com/disability Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’...

Do I Need International Stocks?

February 28, 2024 06:00 - 27 minutes - 19.1 MB

Warrant Buffet says you don’t need international stocks in your investment portfolio.  Is this really true? Does Buffet even believe this himself?  Tag along as Justin Harvey CFP and Dr. Jimmy Turner discuss the pros and cons of international stocks, and whether they should make the cut in your portfolio. Every doctor needs own-occupation disability insurance.  To get it from a source you can trust? Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com/disability Want a free copy of The Physician Philoso...

Where to Stash Your Emergency Fund

February 21, 2024 06:00 - 30 minutes - 23 MB

Some high-income earners feel that an emergency fund is unnecessary.  Join in as we discuss the reasons this isn’t really true, AND where you should consider placing your emergency fund as a high-income earning medical professional. Every doctor needs own-occupation disability insurance.  To get it from a source you can trust? Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com/disability Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’s Guide to Personal Finance?  Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com

IS ESG Investing Worth It?

February 14, 2024 06:00 - 24 minutes - 17.4 MB

Have you ever thought about investing with a conscience? Maybe based for environmental, social, or governmental (ESG) reasons?  In this show, Justin Harvey CFP and Dr. Jimmy Turner discuss the merit and pitfalls of ESG investing.  Every doctor needs own-occupation disability insurance.  To get it from a source you can trust? Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com/disability Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’s Guide to Personal Finance?  Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com  R...

Contracts and Employment Agreements for Physicians

February 07, 2024 06:00 - 32 minutes - 24.6 MB

When an employment agreement gets placed in front of most doctors, they look at the salary.  Maybe they look at the non-compete. But, that’s about where it stops.  On this show, we discuss the other important items in a physician contract that every doctor should be aware of before signing on the dotted line. Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’s Guide to Personal Finance?  Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com Looking to get own-occupation disability insurance from a source you...

Coast FIRE to Avoid Getting Burned

January 31, 2024 06:00 - 26 minutes - 19 MB

The proponents of the Financial Independence Retire Early (FIRE) movement has many proponents often fail to mention a different kind of burn. The burnout that comes from saving too much and limiting your lifestyle to a bare minimum.  What if I told you there is an alternative to traditional FIRE called “Coast FIRE” that allows you to retire early without eating raman? Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’s Guide to Personal Finance?  Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com  Looking...

The Four F's of Financial Advising

January 24, 2024 06:00 - 35 minutes - 24.7 MB

Join in as Dr. Jimmy Turner and Justin Harvey, a Certified Financial Planner, discuss whether The Four F's and if doctors would would benefit from a financial advisor. Have no idea how to figure out the good advisor from the one who wants to take advantage of you?  On this show, we discuss some rules of thumb you can utilize to find the right financial advisor for you. We also discuss fee models for financial planners and the conflicts that exist within them Want a free copy of The Physi...

Side-Gigs for Doctors

January 17, 2024 06:00 - 25 minutes - 19.6 MB

Have you ever considered creating non-clinical income outside of medicine?  A lot of doctors have, and a recent report by Medscape shows it. Listen in as Justin Harvey, CFP and I discuss all things physician side gigs. Looking to get own-occupation disability insurance from a source you can trust? Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com Checkout the YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@MoneyMeetsMedicine Medscape Physician Side Gig Report: https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/2023-side...

How to Lower Your Cost When Investing

January 10, 2024 06:00 - 29 minutes - 21.5 MB

Lowering the costs when investing is one of the key principles to investing success. The lower the cost/fees, the higher the returns over the long haul. Did you know that the more you know about money, the lower your fees will be when you invest?  Did you also know that most people think they know more about money than they actually do, and that this is linked to higher fees when investing? Looking to get own-occupation disability insurance from a source you can trust? Visit https://mone...

Jimmy's Lessons From Venture Capitalism

January 04, 2024 11:00 - 28 minutes - 19.9 MB

Sometimes, it is time to pivot. To make a change.  And that’s what Dr. Jimmy Turner and Mike Kittner are doing.  Follow along as they discuss their journey into and out of the venture capital space. What was venture capitalism like? What did we learn? And what are we doing next?  All of that in this show and more.  Want a free copy of The Physician Philosopher’s Guide to Personal Finance?  Visit https://moneymeetsmedicine.com   Looking to contact Mike Kittner about own-occupation disabil...

Frugal FIRE vs YOLO with Dr. Disha Spath

December 20, 2023 06:00 - 32 minutes - 22.4 MB

Did you know that being frugal isn’t the same thing as being cheap? There is a balance to all things, personal finance included. This means finding the balance between YOLO Hedonism and the hedonic treadmill and eat-raman-until-you-retire FIRE.  If you are looking to create financial independence as a physician, tune in as we discuss how to find this balance with Dr. Disha Spath of The Frugal Physician. Need Disability Insurance?  Visit Money Meets Medicine  

Locums for Every Doc with Drs. Nii and Renee Daarko

December 13, 2023 06:00 - 44 minutes - 31.3 MB

Have you ever considered doing locum tenens work in order to create the freedom and flexibility you need?  Tag along as we discuss all things locums with Dr. Renee and Nii Daarko. Need Disability Insurance?  Visit Money Meets Medicine Download the 7-10 things you should consider before doing locums tenens work→ https://locumslifestyle.com  

Living Wealthy with Dr. Bonnie Koo

December 06, 2023 06:00 - 34 minutes - 24.8 MB

Wealth is more than just money in the bank.  At least, that is what our guest Dr. Bonnie Koo believes, and her thought process is pretty compelling. On this show, we talk about: money mindsets, including money scarcity Alternative streams of income for doctors How our upbringing can impact our view on finances And much more…   Looking for Disability Insurance from a source you can trust?  Visit Money Meets Medicine

Marriage and Money with Dr. Kate Mangona

November 29, 2023 06:00 - 32 minutes - 24.3 MB

Money and marriage can be like oil and water. They just don’t mix.  Yet, in a committed relationship, you cannot really avoid talking about money. In this show, we talk about all things money and relationships.  So, if you are married, plan to get married, or are in a committed relationship, in this show we discuss money dates, whether you should share bank accounts, and much more. Dr. Kate Mangona is a double board-certified pediatric radiologist, supportive physician’s wife and mother ...

Disability Insurance Mistakes with Mike Kittner

November 01, 2023 05:00 - 37 minutes - 28.5 MB

The #1 financial task for a doctor is getting disability insurance. Why? Because you can know everything there is to know about investing or paying down debt, but if you don't have an income... neither of them matter. Looking for Disability Insurance from a source you can trust?  Visit Money Meets Medicine Our guest on this show, Mike Kittner went from being a middle school educator (married to a physician) to an insurance agent who helps doctors take care of that #1 financial task. Tu...

Mortality and Money with Dr. Jordan Grumet

October 25, 2023 05:00 - 44 minutes - 34.5 MB

Have you ever had an existential crisis? You know the “What am I doing with my life?” sort of question?  And how does money play a part in your long-term view of your life?  Do you want to leave a legacy?  Do you want to make sure you maximize what you’ve saved? In this episode, Dr. Jordan Grumet a palliative care and hospice physician discusses his experience with dying patient’s and their views on personal finance and the importance of purpose, connection, and identity.   Buy Taking St...

Using credit card points to fly first-class for free

October 18, 2023 05:00 - 50 minutes - 36.5 MB

If you’ve ever wanted to fly first class but thought it was too expensive, this interview is for you. Devon Gimbel, MD is known for helping physicians maximize rewards from credit card points so they can travel more, travel better, and travel often.  This feels like an especially relevant and timely conversation – especially since the data shows that about 38% of doctors have 3-4 different credit cards. We have to wonder: should all doctors be using credit cards to optimize points and ...

Six-figure Student Loan Mistakes

October 11, 2023 05:00 - 37 minutes - 27.4 MB

Let’s just be real: student loan guidelines are confusing and they’re constantly changing. But if you’re like many physicians who have student loans, you’re well aware that if your payments haven’t resumed yet, they’re about to. You want to make sure you’re on track and have a plan for repayment, so you can move confidently forward with your personal finance goals. Student loan advice is also one of the things we love helping people with at Attend. If you want a student loan expert t...

Following the Financial Crowd

October 04, 2023 05:00 - 25 minutes - 20.1 MB

Have you ever left a sporting event, following the crowd, and suddenly realized you were walking the wrong way? What if I told you this phenomenon has a name, and it impacts your money, too? Understanding our own behavior when it comes to finance is essential because it helps us mitigate wrong-for-us decision making around money. Unless you know these roadblocks exist, you can’t do much to stop them from derailing your financial goals.  Last week, we shared why human behavior matters for...

Greed, FOMO, and Bad Investments

September 27, 2023 05:00 - 29 minutes - 22.7 MB

Despite our best intentions, certain emotions can keep us from building wealth. After many years arming physicians with the information they need to achieve financial wellness, I had a significant realization.  Information is one thing – behavior is another. As the saying goes, money is 80% behavior and only 20% math. Not only do I want to share important information about personal finance, I also want to help you recognize how certain behaviors can (and do) affect your finances.  Dr...

How Doctors Can Get Good Financial Advice

September 20, 2023 05:00 - 37 minutes - 28.2 MB

Many doctors and high-income professionals hire financial advisors for any number of reasons. Either they’re too busy to handle their finances themselves, they don’t really know how to invest, or they want an expert on their side to make sure they’re on the right track. So allow me to say from the start: I’m not against financial advisors, but I am against doctors (or anyone, really) being overcharged for bad advice. There’s no shame in asking for help – you just want to get the help you...

Dr. Peter Kim and Physician Entrepreneurship

September 13, 2023 05:00 - 43 minutes - 30.1 MB

Have you ever thought about using real estate to reach financial independence, but you didn't want to be a landlord? Recently I sat down with one of my good friends and one of the OG partners of The Physician Philosopher. He’s an anesthesiologist, husband, father, entrepreneur, as well as a real estate and physician side gig guru – of course, I’m talking about Dr. Peter Kim.  One of the interesting things about Peter's story is his transition from full-time practice as an OB anesthesiolo...

Disappointing Physician Income & the Arrival Fallacy

September 06, 2023 05:00 - 39 minutes - 27.1 MB

The arrival fallacy is a concept that’s very prevalent in medicine. Coined by Tal Ben-Shahar, it refers to the illusion of happiness that we think we’ll experience when we arrive at a completed goal or achievement (spoiler: it doesn’t work like that).  In medicine in particular, this is reinforced with lots of delayed gratification and long training periods with limited free time and low pay.  We think that finally achieving the next level (whether it’s residency, fellowship, or attendin...

Dr. Hala Sabry from Physician Moms Group

August 30, 2023 05:00 - 49 minutes - 32.2 MB

Have you ever thought about what legacy you’ll be leaving behind and how money plays a part in that? Lisha and I recently had a conversation with Dr. Hala Sabry, emergency medicine physician and founder of Physician Moms Group, a private online physicians community made up of over 120,000 physicians. Hala is passionate about helping women physicians fulfill their professional goals and discover the legacy they want to create – which includes building and managing wealth.  As you might im...

Doctors in Venture Capitalism with Dr Omar Nije

August 23, 2023 05:00 - 32 minutes - 24.2 MB

Recently Lisha and I sat down with Dr. Omar Nije to talk about his experience as a doctor in finance. Dr. Nije’s perspective is unique because he’s both a physician AND a principal, but not in public education. He’s a principal at a venture capitalist firm, which is a world that most physicians I know haven’t been exposed to. Up until about 6 months ago, it was something I didn’t know much about myself. Join the conversation to learn more about: What venture capitalism is Dr. Omar’s jo...

More Student Loan Updates & Important Info

August 16, 2023 05:00 - 33 minutes - 26.1 MB

As they say, the only constant in life is change. The same is true when it comes to the resuming of student loan payments this fall. Staying up-to-date on all the relevant information is key to effectively managing your student loans. But the student loan landscape is changing fast. So we’re here to help. Since we last spoke about student loans in July, more important updates to loan terms have been released. If you’re someone with student loans who wants to make sure you have everything i...

Talking About Finances With Your Partner

August 09, 2023 05:00 - 38 minutes - 29.7 MB

According to studies conducted by the American Psychological Association, the number one financial stressor for households is money - personal finance. That makes talking about money with your partner a really important topic for everybody to understand.  Why is talking about money with your partner important? For alignment with your partner  To ensure you’re working towards the same goals  Personal finance is one of the top reasons for divorce Divorce is one of the biggest wealth-kill...

The Importance of Keeping Investing Stupid Simple (KISS)

August 02, 2023 05:00 - 37 minutes - 28.2 MB

Did you know that when it comes to investing, keeping it simple often leads to better returns? Keeping it simple is not just my or Lisha’s opinion - studies show that this is a more effective, sustainable way to go about investing. Why? Because it turns out that as humans, we don't like as many choices as we think we do. We take action less often when we feel overwhelmed with choices. Just think of the last time you asked your partner where they wanted to go for dinner… In fact, in a j...

Plan for student loans when payments restart

July 26, 2023 05:00 - 41 minutes - 36.8 MB

For those who have no idea what to do with the upcoming student loan payments restarting, and the millions who will need to enroll in a student loan plan… are you overwhelmed yet? Understandably, a lot of physicians are anxious about how loan terms are going to roll out, what it means for their finances, and how it will affect their lives. As we know, keeping up with the recent loan changes is an ongoing process, and it can be hard to keep all the details straight. Plus, how do we know the...

Personal Finances and Summer Vacation

July 19, 2023 05:00 - 43 minutes - 38.5 MB

Whether you’re planning to take a vacation this summer or in the near future, you may be looking for some financially savvy ways to prepare. Lucky for you, one of the secrets of life that I've learned is how to incorporate intentional planning when it comes to personal finances and summer vacation.  That’s what this week’s Money Meets Medicine podcast is all about. Just a few of the topics we’ll cover include: 3 ways vacation gives us psychological benefits How to be intentional about...

Dr. Glaucomflecken Talks Personal Finance

July 12, 2023 05:00 - 46 minutes - 41.6 MB

We interview Will Flanary, who is perhaps better known by his comedic stage name: Dr. Glaucomflecken. Just a few of the awesome topics we cover in our conversation: Charitable giving Will’s battle with testicular cancer and the time he had a cardiac arrest His thoughts on physician side gigs and residents unionizing … he even shares his biggest personal finance mistake Click here to download the Attend App for Doctors. Looking for a comprehensive financial platform for doctors, by do...

Financial Considerations When Starting a Job

July 05, 2023 05:00 - 48 minutes - 45.4 MB

July is the time of year when those in the medical field experience the most transition – whether to your next level of training, moving to a new institution for fellowship or residency, or taking your first job as an attending. It can be overwhelming. Make sure you’re equipped with the right questions to ask to make your job transition less intimidating and stressful. Here are a few financial considerations to make when you’re starting a job.  Looking for a comprehensive financial platf...

9 Considerations When Changing Jobs

June 28, 2023 05:00 - 39 minutes - 36.7 MB

50% of doctors change jobs in the first 2-4 years of their career, but knowing how to properly handle a job transition is relevant to every physician at every stage of their career. Financial advice for doctors doesn’t often cover this topic, so we’re more than happy to dive into it with you here.  Maybe you’re coming out of your first job in training, maybe you’re an attending changing jobs, or you’re moving out of academics to another field. You honestly don’t know when certain opportuni...

3 Big Updates On Student Loans

June 21, 2023 05:00 - 38 minutes - 30.5 MB

You may have already heard about President Biden’s student loan forgiveness plans, but what does that mean for you? We’re covering those qualifiers today, plus identifying three 2023 dates in particular that really matter for those managing student loan debt. Join us as we walk through those three important dates, what they mean, as well as the potential impact.  Plus: find out how to make sure you don’t get stuck with a surprise 4-figure loan payment. It’s everything you need to know ...

Saving for Tomorrow While Enjoying Today

June 14, 2023 05:00 - 31 minutes - 28.8 MB

Did you know that it's possible to make great financial progress while you spend money on things you enjoy? Yep, you read that right. It might be surprising to hear this in the financial space, but you worked hard to get to where you are. You deserve to enjoy some of the spoils and riches of all of that work that you put in to go through college, medical school, and residency. In the physician finance blogosphere, there are financial gurus that are out there who paint a dichotomous pictu...

Do Bonds Belong in Your Portfolio?

June 07, 2023 05:00 - 36 minutes - 29.8 MB

Did you know that as interest rates rise, the value of bonds falls? Should you even care about that? Are bonds a good investment for doctors?  In this episode, we’re tackling these questions and discussing the purpose of bonds in a doctor's portfolio, as well as the nuance of our current high interest environment. Looking for a comprehensive financial platform for doctors, by doctors that will help you to secure your financial future?  Make sure to check out HelloAttend.com 

Pre-Tax versus Roth Investments

May 31, 2023 05:00 - 35 minutes - 26.7 MB

Maybe you're starting your intern year and you're considering investing as one of your steps in that journey. As July approaches, maybe you’re transitioning as a trainee from an institution or to a new job, you might be asking yourself, “Should I be investing in pre-tax vs Roth?”  It’s a really interesting topic and an important question, especially as interest rates and inflation changes.  When someone slides that 401k or that 403b form in front of you, it often gives you the option to ...

How to Save More Money

May 24, 2023 05:00 - 37 minutes - 31.4 MB

If you’ve ever needed to save up for a wedding, a car, or a home, yet you weren't quite sure about the best way to do it, this episode is for you. There are lots of reasons why you might be thinking about setting up short-term savings (savings you intend to need within 3-5 years).  But figuring out how to save money can be easier said than done. With so many options for investments and money management, how do you know the best place to start? And how can you be sure you’ll reach your sa...

The Diminishing Return of Working More

May 17, 2023 05:00 - 39 minutes - 36.1 MB

It often pays to work smarter, not harder, yet many doctors put in more and more hours to make more money in medicine. But is working more always a good idea? I think there are pros and cons to working more shifts in medicine. Personal finance is personal, and you have to assess whether you feel you’re being compensated fairly for the time and energy you put into your work.  If you’re not, you might be working for diminishing returns. Yes, you have expenses to cover, but remember the i...

High-Interest Environment: Invest or Pay Off Debt?

May 10, 2023 05:00 - 40 minutes - 38.2 MB

With inflation and interest rates being what they are, one of the most common questions that we get nowadays is, “Should I invest or pay off debt? What should I be doing with my money?” Everywhere in medicine, inflation has an impact. One of the common areas where this naturally happens a lot is in regards to reimbursement rates and income. Doctors realize, “Hey, I haven't gotten a substantial raise in five or ten years, maybe more. And yet, inflation in 2022 is 6-9%.” So when we face th...

Money Mistakes We Made in 2022

May 03, 2023 05:00 - 32 minutes - 24.4 MB

Even though we’re self-proclaimed money nerds, it doesn't mean we don't make mistakes.  Physician finance isn’t your run-of-the-mill financial strategy. We have certain exceptions and special circumstances to watch out for. And sometimes even the most seasoned pro can make money mistakes. We’re still human, after all. So let’s normalize the idea that we’ll run into snags and learn new lessons as we work to figure out our personal finance goals. Tune in as Alicia and I share all the gor...

What To Do With Unexpected Money

April 26, 2023 05:00 - 28 minutes - 21.6 MB

Disability Insurance for Docs: physicianfinancialservices.com  Looking to increase your financial literacy?  Check out Medical Degree Financial University → MDFU.Co

The Superpowers of a Taxable Brokerage Account

April 19, 2023 05:00 - 30 minutes - 24.5 MB

A lot of us have an idea of what we should do with money that we earn on a regular basis from our physician jobs. Oftentimes it goes towards our typical cost of living expenses: bills, debts, savings, investments. But what about money you get that you weren't expecting? Because yes, most of us will, at some point, get at least a little money that we didn't expect. Regardless of the source – whether it’s an inheritance, a tax refund, or a bonus at work – we end up with one question. To ge...

Is it wrong for doctors to retire early?

April 12, 2023 05:00 - 40 minutes - 37.4 MB

When it comes to doctors retiring early because of F.I.R.E. (financial independence retire early), there’s an inevitable argument made against it and why it’s ethically wrong for physicians to do. That argument says unless you practice medicine until the day you die, it's unacceptable. Whether it’s citing a physician shortage that doesn’t really exist or feeling as though doctors shouldn’t retire early because we’re doing something good for society, some feel like we should give of our t...

The Most Important Financial Task for Doctors

April 05, 2023 05:00 - 34 minutes - 26.8 MB

Physician disability insurance is something you have to get right. If you were to learn only one thing from me, this might be the one thing that I would want you to know. It’s the reason that Money Meets Medicine exists, and why I started The Physician Philosopher.  Your most important financial asset is your ability to earn an income. You work hard to get your training protecting this asset, and your ability to accumulate an income and everything else we teach you doesn't matter if you ...

Should You Save for Your Kid’s College Education?

March 29, 2023 05:00 - 36 minutes - 24.6 MB

What if I told you that maybe you shouldn't save for your kid's college education?  There are tons of questions we have to ask ourselves (not just as parents, but as investors) about the concept of covering our kid’s entire college education. Are we really getting the value from this investment? Maybe tuition is worth $100,000 dollars, but is it worth a quarter of a million dollars? And how much am I willing to contribute?  To me, it’s an obvious choice if it comes down to saving for you...

Should You Die with Zero?

March 22, 2023 05:00 - 26 minutes - 24 MB

We’re pleased to be discussing the book Die With Zero by Bill Perkins. Bill isn’t a financial advisor (a plus if you ask us), but he offers a lot of insight and perspective on personal finance and financial independence that got us thinking about our approaches to money in a new way.  It’s especially applicable to us as doctors. On one end of the spectrum, we have the doctors who are in a race to reach financial independence and rarely take time to stop and smell the roses. On the other e...

Show Me the Money (in the Financial Industry)

March 15, 2023 05:00 - 35 minutes - 28.4 MB

The personal finance industry is meant to help you manage your assets, but particularly for doctors, many questions remain around what that kind of support actually means.  Does your financial advisor have your best interest at heart? Do you know how they get paid? Are they transparent in their disclosures about how their company actually works? Where are the conflicts of interest? Because you can rest assured there are conflicts of interest. It’s just a matter of how they show up. And o...