The Value of VALORANT's Co-Streaming w/ Average Jonas

Average Jonas' career has been anything but average. An accomplished opera singer, Jonas began creating parody songs based on video games. Hits like "You Don't Know Your Silver 4" and "Eco Maybe." He's also a damn good esports player and not just for content creators, he helped 100 Thieves Hiko become one of the best Sova players in the world and other pros have been known to check out his videos for tips and tricks to the challenging hero. After VALORANT's release, Average Jonas was laid off from his job performing on cruise ships. He started streaming and in the last year has reached over 400,000 followers and joined Team Liquid. 

Most recently, he was one of the five English-speaking streamers to receive the rights to co-stream VALORANT's Stage 2 Masters alongside Shroud, Myth, Ludwig and Pokimane. Pretty good company. On this show we go in depth into the co-streaming experience including some of the benefits and critiques of the practice. We also talk about the NBA's recent partnership with Gaules (who I accidentally called Portuguese when I meant to say he speaks Portuguese, he's Brazilian), the rivalry between NA - EU in VALORANT and what EU teams to watch heading towards Stage 3. The full transcription of the podcast is below the line. 

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Mitch Reames  
Hello and welcome into loosely scripted and eSports podcast from nursery gamers. I'm your host Mitch Reames. Today's guest is jodis never said day but you probably know him as average Jonas. Well, he may use the title average notice on his content. His career has really been anything but he's an accomplished opera singer who has performed on big stages around the world but especially in his home country of Norway. He broke into the esports scene with parody Cisco songs like you don't know your silver for an Ico maybe to the tune of Call Me Maybe it eSports he competed in Overwatch during the game early years sorry those songs are absolutely fantastic I don't have any questions about it. I wanted to seek allied from you don't know your silver for but I wouldn't do an accomplished thinker like that. A lot of fun with those to be honest. Yeah. Incredible. Incredible. I'll link them down below this because you should watch it if you're a CS GO fed. You're gonna love that because they really capsulate everybody's reg experience especially Yeah, you don't know your silver for a little bit of my own experience personally. in eSports he competed Overwatch during the games early years and after valor came out his scalable CS at Overwatch translated into him coming to the best solvers in the game with pros actually stealing a few of his patented moves. As a streamer. He has over 400,000 followers on Twitch and well over 200,000 subscribers on YouTube. In the world, he's now joined Team Liquid, he's performed amazing darts to the tune of Amazing Grace at major EU valor events. And most recently was one of the few co streamers approved for valor champions, Stuart vcts. Stage two masters in Reykjavik, Iceland. Average Jonas, welcome to the show. Thank you. That

Average Jonas  
was quite the intro. Jesus Christ. That was like I saw my life just flashed before my eyes there for a second.

Mitch Reames  
Did I miss anything, any big moments along the way that you feel like should be better?

Average Jonas  
Or you know what I it's kind of sad to say that I feel like you just basically explained my entire life in like 15 seconds. But I mean, that was pretty much essentially it. Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, the opera singer was also like on our cruise ship and like 60 countries around the world. So that's like a minor detail to

Mitch Reames  
very cool. Very cool. I didn't know that. So yeah, big stages around the world, literally, of the oceans going around the world. You know, if if your life could be explained to 15 seconds minds in like three. So I think you're actually very curious. I'm sure you've answered this question in the past, but your name is average notice, but you do all these different things. What's the origin story behind the name average, because it doesn't seem like a very fitting word to describe your career.

Average Jonas  
So the way it started, it's actually a pun on average, Joe, because so I made my youtube channel like seven or eight years ago or something. And I started making just YouTube videos, I made a lot of acapella covers, where I put like, 40 or 50 tracks of my own voice to create like a choir, because like, you know, I didn't have any friends. So I just made more choir instead, you know, as you do, and I made like gaming songs and stuff. And my idea was that like, anyone can start a stream or a YouTube channel, and all you need is a computer. So I felt like average Jonas like fit in because any average Joe could technically do the same. We all like, like, you know, if you grow up in us, like, normal home, most people have access to a computer or some sort of recording equipment. If they're, I mean, if they're lucky, not everybody, but you know what I mean? So yeah, that's basically Yeah,

Mitch Reames  
that's a it's a really good point. The, the internet has become a meritocracy in so many ways, especially in content creation, which is one of the best things I tell this to, you know, when I talk to students or people who are addressed in podcasts you're working in this industry of like, just mics are like 60 bucks. So you could get a Blue Yeti for for $80. And then you start recording things audacity is free, you can start like developing these skills, and then publishing your stuff for free in a lot of cases. So yeah, I totally hear you on that. Especially all the content creation. So I don't know how I did get the average Joe. of that. That's a that makes so much sense. Yeah. Talk about Valerie, obviously, we're here. There's your gamers, we're huge fans of valor. It is something that we've been doing and supporting the NAC quite a bit. When valor came out, you played it almost immediately, you're in the beta. It follows with this really nice middle ground of other popular FPS titles. Why were you drawn to the game, starting from the very first days of its release?

Average Jonas  
I mean, so it was like a combination of things. First of all, I have a background in Overwatch. So I've already come from a game where utility usage is extremely important, which is probably also why I was so drawn towards Silva because like, his entire toolkit, like can just be used to such perfection, but he could also be like so bad, depending on how you use it, which was really, really intriguing. So the very start actually started playing Sage because like she couldn't dress and that's really cool. And then I was looking at so far like, in like the distance and I was like, I really want to play that guy. But I just know that if I play that guy, I have to play him and not just like cash the play, I knew that I had to just get 500 hours done in customer games and stuff, which is essentially what I did as soon as I could. So that was like the main thing combined with the fact that like, I had my cruise ship job, and I lost my job due to the cola Corona. So I was basically back home in Norway with my parents. And I started streaming at the same time as valorant came out. So I basically streamed for more than a year now.

Mitch Reames  
Yeah, that was the crazy thing about Valerie's release is it just comes at this period where everyone's like, Oh, yeah, what do I do now? What do I What am I spending my time with? And then this new game comes out? We're like, I mean, hey, that's as good as anything else. Right?

Average Jonas  
Yeah, there's a ton I think there's a ton of streamers that kind of like blew up with valorant you know, like it because the game grew so quickly and a lot of people grew with it. So I think like a ton of streamers you have me flights or flux center. You have all these people who just like saw an opportunity and took it and like made the best out of it.

Mitch Reames  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you look at like the stars created as well, players like 10s and asuna. Over in NA these guys and then fanatics basically entire roster who have all just boaster became a star like a few weeks ago, basically, he would from people knew him in the CS community. And then yeah, he's like, one of the faces of valor is already one of the best teams that his celebrations are incredible at all, all this great stuff. So it's one of the coolest things about a new esport coming out is you start to see one, you have old stars, you have people like scream who everybody knows. And then you start to see these new stars start popping up both streamers and content creators and the players as well. Speaking of stars, the people that you were co streaming with at VCT youth, there's five approved co streamers, and they are shroud I think everybody knows shroud myth, Ludwig, and Pokemon. And then you're the fifth there. Those are basically some of the biggest names in streaming history. What was that experience like for you co streaming along that being one of those five people that Riot was like, hey, yeah, carry this banner, and represent valerate eSports, we trust you to take this brand and to deliver it to your audience? What is that experience like for you?

Average Jonas  
So I think like, first of all, we have to like go back eight months, when like, basically nursery gamers was actually like one of the few who were constantly showing off the matches. And I've always been a huge fan of nerf street because I think you guys are some of the best that actually highlighting valorant Esports in a hole, and I think is one of the main reasons why the NA scene grew so much compared to the other scenes, but, and I was actually like quite early on co streaming a lot of the matches, especially like 100 thieves, because I'm a good friend of hiko. And I taught him a lot of sowhat tricks back and it's dark, because they didn't play. So when it started 100 thieves, and I was like yo, he go do this. And then he was like, Oh, that's a good idea. And then he became one of the best soldiers in the world. And, but, and I obviously I kind of had this whole like 100 thieves fan club kind of thing in the same way how myth had a TSM and so on. And that happened for a long time. But then obviously, after a while, first of all, I joined liquid. That's of course, one big part of it. Another was that like, watch parties were simply not allowed for European tournaments. And they were not allowed, basically anywhere else than if you were an NA streamer. And that was a huge problem. So I actually fought for this right for like a solid eight months, I was like being very vocal about it on Twitter, I started to get a lot of contacts in riot. And I was like, Hey, guys, we need to work this out, we need to try to balance out. So it's not just the NA scene being recognized. But we need to like be able to have other ways of lifting up the other scenes as well. And of course, you can't just say that because you're co streaming some of your lifting up the scene, but it definitely helps. So then finally, I was able, after a lot of back and forth and a few denied applications, actually, we finally managed to first get a deal where we were allowed to stream on YouTube, in which case we went back and said yeah, but like I'm I'm a twitch streamer. And if I stream on YouTube, I will actually get banned from Twitch. And not to mention that my audience is on Twitch as well. So it just doesn't make sense to stream on YouTube. So we had to like get letters of recommendations from higher ups. And right here, it was like a whole whole shebang for several weeks of meetings and presentations to be able to actually be the first ever European watch party host so of course that was a huge achievement for me personally because it's something I've worked for for so long. But it's also a step in the right direction to shine more light on especially the EU scene, which is of course what I'm a big fan of, which is why it's great that we have teams like Finn And so on, like showing a lot of personality and getting more fans around the world. And of course, streaming next to Miss pokeymon Ludwig instride was really cool because it streamers I've looked up to for so long. And I did, of course, I didn't expect like have the same numbers or anything like they did. But I expected I was able to host a watch party that was probably the only one that was biased towards the EU scene. Because as much as like all the other streamers are West Coast LA or close to that at least. So I knew that if I started my stream earlier, at least I would be the only co streamer that would have like a pre show where we would look through statistics, we looked through all the different teams, comms videos, literally everything that was in a tournament, we had comms videos watched on my stream. So we could like get to know the teams a bit better before the tournament even started, I think like my watch, but his uniqueness was was the fact that like I'm in a different time zone. And there's a different audience in Europe. And we were just able to cater to more fans of valorant as a whole. And also to introduce it to new people, especially getting to know the teams better. I said teams and other regions that people may not know as much about from EU and na.

Mitch Reames  
I think in hindsight, it was crucial to have somebody there because the dominant storyline, the dominant narrative that came out of it was the NA versus EU rivalry as the two teams, two of the three regions to get to entrance in there and Brazil, does it perform very well. So it becomes very quickly. Oh, na versus EU, they meet up in the finals. So not having if we didn't have an EU streamer doing this, it would feel a little hollow to be like, Wait, where's that representation from from that side of the world, basically, as we talk about the most dominant narrative, invalid eSports to date right now. And I actually do want to talk about some of those narratives and some of the potential drawbacks or some of the there was some critiques for the esports community about how co streaming prevents narratives. And I think that's something worth talking about. But first, I want to talk about the positives to co streaming before we jump into any of the perceived negatives. And what are the big positives is viewers This event was the first valid eSports competition not including the beta period where people are just hunting for drops to top 1 million people watching an event at once. From your perspective, what is the value of CO streaming to an esport, especially one that just celebrate its first birthday in Ballard.

Average Jonas  
So first of all, I think that one of the most important things that a co streamer does is to provide variety in the entertainment. So what I mean by that is that like the entertainment value of an official broadcast doesn't necessarily cater to every type of viewer. And that is also why I think it is important that you have x professionals like shroud who knows a lot about the game as and it's probably the best costumer to watch if you want to get a more in depth insight into what's happening, because the casters are busy casting a spell, so they don't actually have time to provide that much detail into each play. And of course, he has a lot of followers as well. So that gains like more fans to the game. But then on the other hand, you have people watching eSports for entertainment, who are maybe, maybe they're silver players, maybe they just pay for fun, you know, like they don't have like the same competitive mindset. And then it makes like, this is why I've always been defending Pokemon, for instance, because I know she got a lot of hate for being a coach gamer, and she's diamond and she just have any competitive background. But that's the whole point. The whole point is to have a variety in her entertainment, she provides a completely different entertainment package to her viewers. But it doesn't mean that it's worse in any way. It's just a different type of entertainment. So for her viewers, I don't think the most important thing is why someone peeked this corner and planted that specific spot. It's more about while it's fun to see these teams competing in a game that is really entertaining for me to watch. And I think that's something that co streaming does that an official broadcast can never do. But then the big problem is obviously like how do you know that the CO stream race and stealing viewers from an official broadcast? How do we know the core stream is adding value? Because that's always the big discussion here? like are they actually adding value or are they stealing value? And that's again, why people were questioning for instance, why Ludwig was one of the CO streamers. But then one of the big arguments for that is obviously that his audience almost isn't a valid audience at all. Which means that if he has 20,000 people watching him while he's co streaming valid, that's 20,000 new viewers to valorant competitive, and that's worth a lot more than 20,000 viewers that would already watch the main broadcast anyway.

Mitch Reames  
Absolutely agree. I think there is. Yeah, and you bring up a really good point too, on the pokey main front, which, you know, I think the most common way to compare eSports is with traditional sports and not everybody's watching traditional sports for like super in depth strategy of the games themselves. Sports offers. So Much more in that. And I think eSports will do well to also replicate that same level of motion, that same level of interest for a more casual viewer. And co streaming is one way that we might start getting that and start moving away from just people who are really, really good evaluate, because ultimately that caps, how big eSports can be as a whole. Yeah. So talking about some of those potential downsides, I think you might have alluded to this to the big critique I saw was Monte Cristo, and he tweeted during VCT masters, quote, I'm very conflicted about the rise of CO streaming on eSports. So that, on the one hand, it's a good way to utilize the reach of big streamers. On the other hand, co streaming dominance is subjectively bad for Brand Partners and proper eSports and narrative development, and quote, do you think there are some negatives that come with CO streaming that might need to be fixed? You talked about potentially stealing audience away? In terms of like the brand partners and narrative development? Do you think those are valid critiques?

Average Jonas  
So first of all, I think it depends on how you look at it. Because like, for instance, when you have official co stream co streamers, like valorant has, it means that they can tell us to show all the same sponsors and the same ads, which means that when we share our analytics, they're not actually losing viewership, because I don't think a sponsor cares if the sponsor logo is shown on trout stream, or on the valance stream, because it's still exposure to a sponsor. But this is where like, the the kind of details around the agreement comes in, what is it like? Do we have to show the analyst segment? Do we have to have the volume on during the commercial breaks? These are like details that could matter. But then you could also flip it and say, like, Yeah, but the person watching the commercial break on the main channel, would they wouldn't they possibly mute the the ad break anyway? In that case, would it make any difference? Or would should they customize their ads to make sure that they're visual and Not Audible, so that even when there's a break, you can still see it, so that these are like more details to how you create the actual agreement with each co streamer. And in terms of Esports narrative, I think I kind of disagree because like, you can see now when we had this whole year versus na thing, it is actually really cool when would then have ear and na ko streams as well, because then you kind of gathered the fans of each region in each place, and would build up like a community or like a, like a, like a fan base around that. So that I feel like that strengthens the narrative, because then we will have like, you know, it's like when TSM plays and myth ko streams it. Like it's just a giant TSM fan club every time Wardell makes a shot people Oh my god, we're done. You know what I mean? And I think that like strengthens the narrative, and not the other way around. But I do understand the concern, because like, what if, what if, like, the main valorant channel basically just loses a lot of sponsor deals because shroud is bigger than the actual code stream. But I mean, I think that's just down to the way they handle it, like the way they do the actual agreement. And also, one last important thing that we forget to mention is that especially now, when a lot of people are in isolation due to COVID I think a lot of people feel lonely. And when they're watching a co stream, it feels like they're watching the tournament with someone

Mitch Reames  
that's a really really good point. And again, it gets back to the to the whole thing that if co streaming added 200,000 viewers total say there's no co streams how many is like many people are watching the main channel maybe it's 750,000 brands are stoked to have an extra 250,000 people that they might not get that exposure to now you might talk about you know, maybe they're not doing the same read but most of them had the the casters on already anyway. So you know, I I'm not sure where the missed value is necessarily coming from. And especially from my perspective, as well, I was spending a lot of time switching between different co streamers. And every time you switch you get hit with a with a new ad and so I was actually probably saw 1015 more ads that I would have seen normally because I was like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna watch out for showed us for a while I'm not gonna switch over to myth and switch over to Ludwig. And actually the other benefit I saw out of CO streaming was that I quickly moved away from the from shroud and the main chat and that's because I was watching a week long tournament and covering every single day of it and the chat each of those was just filled with copy paste and I don't Yeah, don't get me wrong. I like a good copy paste. I love a good joke. I love a good twitch chat joke. But what I'm watching a tournament for an entire week seeing those same four or five jokes gets a bit old after time. And I'd argue that the subdivision of viewers are Koshi we actually made chat in each of those places. a much better place for narrative building up because you go to your chat and people were talking about boaster talking about the history. Have Magnum and mystic and these different fanatic players are talking about liquid obviously they know liquid very well. And so I was finding that a lot better for narrative building, then you know the same just send them home and a mere airport like yeah, just filling up Chat Chat.

Average Jonas  
Yeah, because I think like it is it is a really important thing to talk about to do what is building a narrative in the first place? Because I think it has to be a two way communication. And of course, like, like, I'm not blaming Charlotte, like, if you have a 270k viewers, there's no way you can control your chatty and we're not even in sub mode. But like, and that's why like, again, this whole concept of different types of entertainment kicks in because when I have five to 10k viewers, and if the if the chat is somehow moderated, then it's actually able to, to develop narratives by talking to your chat, because sometimes, well, sometimes the chat actually comes up with something that is relatively smart to talk about. And sometimes they don't. I mean, but that that's the thing, right? At least you have an option. Yeah. But then you at least like have the option to like, read these things and talk about it. And suddenly, you're creating another unique entertainment value that would never happen on an official stream, because it's it's not built for that.

Mitch Reames  
Absolutely. And I think there's, we're seeing some of those added areas of value. And there's actually a really interesting deal that came out I think about two weeks ago now in the traditional sports where I'm not sure if you saw this, but the NBA partnered with goals, who is a major Portuguese streamer to allow him to co stream NBA games. And I thought that was a really interesting move it because it shows that this isn't just an Esports specific thing. This is one of the biggest sports properties in the entire world. And they see value in CO streaming. And they also don't have those same worries that Monte Cristo brought up about brands and MBAs got a lot of massive brand sponsorship deals. So that to me, I saw that it was like, okay, clearly the brand issue was not a huge thing for the NBA. And NBA is fortune 50, fortune 100 brands that partner with them. We're on board with it. And so I thought that was an interesting sort of CO side of it, because eSports has taken quite a bit from traditional sports. But now we're also seeing that go the go the opposite direction. traditional sports is like, oh, eSports is doing that thing. Yeah, we did that too.

Average Jonas  
Yeah. And I think that like one thing, too, like one thing I think that montecristo mentioned that he was worried about, is what happens when trout leaves, right? Because that's always the big question like, well, like, if you're basing your audience on cold streams, what happens if some of the CO streamers are no longer there? Are people still fans of the game? Or are they fans of the streamer? And that's always something that is scary, because you don't actually know like, how many viewers with the main broadcast have if shroud was there, but again, when you're developing a new game, like valent is right now, I don't I don't see how valid has a choice. Because if they can, if they can create exposure to 270,000 more people, they should just be like, Hell, yeah, we should do that. Regardless of he wants to stream it in a year because he's still showing a new game to a lot of new people. So that's like still a valid thing. And I think the whole NBA thing is also what I mentioned earlier about how you're showing it to a new audience, which is like it's which is why like, Riot decided to choose the costume race they did. It is the same thing with NBA, right, they're choosing a twitch streamer, which means that people would never watch the NBA, if it wasn't for the fact that he was streaming it on Twitch. So it's just added value.

Mitch Reames  
That's that's how I see it as well. And I agree, I think in the first year, you know, and and if those people were only watching for shroud, well, then they wouldn't have been watching VCT stage two masters at all. So you know, it's not if that entire audience leaves when shroud leaves, then at least you got 200,000 new eyes on $1 at eSports during the event. And I definitely think, you know, caster wise it was it was definitely something that shroud was moving between which was like, Oh, do we have the Castro value volume up or down? I really thought it was a pretty important to have it at least existing especially again for what the crystal is a caster. So I'm sure that there was a level of like, well, you should you should be able to hear the casters that I think would co streaming and I believe you had the caster volume up on your entire stream well while you were watching and I think that really just adds value at that point where if you start muting the casters, then I can start to see the value decrease possibly where you don't get to hear from them. But as long as the casters are up, then it's just added value to me.

Average Jonas  
Yeah, and I suppose Something that is like always a problem when you're chat is typing like someone someone more volume, somewhat less volume. And for instance, I always had like other guests from the EU scene as well to try to create this whole idea of like an ear watch party. And of course, when you have a guest and you're discussing, it means that like the caster volume needs to be a bit lower. But again, it provides an alternative form of entertainment, which means that if they think the casting rolling is too low, well, there's no official broadcast for you that you can go to.

Mitch Reames  
Right? Right. Yeah, that's not blocked off or anything. Now, so I do want to switch to I want to be conscious of your I thought you were talking to me, but do you have a have a dog next years? No, no, it's it's, it's my fan remote. off my fan? No, worry. Don't worry. I'm alone. Okay. I know that original design. I was like, if I say something wrong.

Average Jonas  
No, it's delayed. So I actually answered to like you, but it's like, there's like a few seconds delay.

Mitch Reames  
Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Yes. We're, you know, I'm West Coast of the US here. Yeah, if we were playing valor right now our ping would be just absolutely skyrocketed. At speaking of the actual game, you know, this show, it's actually my fourth episode of this new podcast, super stoked to be taking over the brand for for nerd Street. But I haven't had a valorant guest on following stage two masters first episode was with me elite, but that was pre stage to masters. And so I'm curious, you know, I did a ton of coverage on this event talking to players after every day of the tournament. But as a noted EU fan and a fan of the game, what were your biggest takeaways from valorant most important event yet, now that we're about two weeks since the since the end of it.

Average Jonas  
I think that first of all, I think it was a really successful event, especially being the first international LAN and so on. And I think it just shows a lot of like, potential for the future. Because like, we're talking about having worlds sometime in December. And like, already, that production was pretty clean. There was a lot of technical difficulties the first days, but it got better after a while I'm like, I could finally rest my voice from singing and every technical break. But like, I think it just showed a ton of potential especially now that we've started to build a narrative of EU versus na and like Korea coming in just behind and all these kind of things. I think that it just creates a lot of expectations for masters in Berlin as well as worlds but I think overall it shows how great eSports can be when it's such like it's it's a game that is like one year old. And I'm really excited to see where it kind of takes us in the future because we know riots can produce some insane shows with Elysee and LCS. So I'm really excited to see like if they choose kind of those directions again with like music productions where hopefully I'll be involved and other things that can create a lot of entertainment value.

Mitch Reames  
Well, I think you're a lock for any music productions going forward, they'd be fools not to bring you on with those kinds of parody songs. And you've already started doing a few of those things like amazing darts at the EU event so yeah, I would love to see something like like KDA right did legends but get a little valerate action in there get a gets a different voices in there and it's a great way to have showcasing the worldwide nature of Esports in general and especially now value in eSports as well where music transcends different cultures and transcends different countries as well and so it's really cool especially at international events to showcase how international a game is through music activation something that rides stuff for league of legends that I expect they'll probably want to do for valor and as well speaking about the YouTubes in particular fanatic clearly impressed everyone especially with how young that team is and I know you're obviously on the liquid roster yourself fanatic and liquid went back and forth in the last few challengers events to then they eventually met up in the lower bracket semifinals at stage two masters in your mind is that any question? Whether they are the top two teams in EU or if they just submitted themselves hey there one and two and then everybody else has to try and get to their level?

Average Jonas  
I think it's a lot of it has to do with timing on how the metas shift with the different agent buffs and nerfs because we have regions that are like not really adjusting to the Viper met as much as other regions do. So I think there's like like at the top it's very close like fps or ascend could easily be in the spots that liquid and fanatic were in. So I don't I don't I don't think will necessarily see the same teams anberlin masters, but that like we have to Wait and see. But it's a lot closer at the top than people seem to remember. And sometimes it comes down to like insane individual place in some rounds. Sometimes it comes down to like people were discussing, for instance, if the Turkish teams were playing worse due to them all having Ramadan at the same time, and therefore, like players were underperforming due to like dehydration and, and being hungry because it was like in a region that was very hyped up. And they talked about how, like a lot of the other EU teams were getting destroyed by Turkish teams in scrims and stuff. So I think that we don't actually know anything about what's gonna happen in in Berlin. So depends on first of all, if there are any agent changes, like how are people going to play breeze and our braces a map that favors players like scream, for instance, who's like, very naughty with the vandal, because it's definitely a vandal map. It's very open, it makes jet really good. So so like, I think that it's really hard to tell, before masters three, what's going to happen. And it can come down to like small details, even the fact that like, I think that liquid has a lot better chance against fanatic and the best of five, then in the best of three, because like the way their Mac pools work, and like when we played best of five against them, fanatic had a very weak split. Of course, they've worked a lot on their splits since then, but like their strategies to qualify for, for masters was basically to not to play split, because you can always plan a map should never have to win the Best of five to qualify for Iceland. So their strategy was actually to just get really good at four of the maps and just constantly band split, because they knew that they never had to play it, unless it was in the best of five and that best if I was against liquid in the Grand Finals, but that was the seeding match. And then they last split and they lost the finals, but they still qualified and then they beat liquid in a better three later.

Mitch Reames  
Yeah, and then you get to the Grand Finals. viceland suddenly had to play best to five as well, that you've got play settles on, on split. But yeah, it's I mean, it's a strategy that clearly worked for that they were able to qualify as a young team again, a qualify for I said that running all the way to the Grand Finals. You know, you can't be mad at the results. Results there. So you threw out some teams as well, that are really good teas in the EU that I think our audience is mostly na base but they're big valor fan, so I'm sure they're they're well aware of SPX heretics ascend. g two. Is there a dark horse team from Europe that maybe our na audience isn't as familiar with that you think could you should be we should be watching out for and is a dark horse to getting one of those four slots that Europe, Middle East and Africa get in Berlin?

Average Jonas  
I mean, so the the thing here is that there, there was recently a big shuffle on three of the teams jeetu heretics, and ascend switched around their players a lot. So we don't actually know the actual level of any of these teams can say all switched players, and they all feel like they had the better end. And like obviously, some of them have to. I mean, I mean, it would be insane if all of them had the better anyone else can. Rog. Yeah, exactly. So so so you don't actually know yet. But we know that like, for instance, C net is one of the best jet players in the world. Like he does absolutely nutty things with jet especially with the operator. And like one of the reasons why sn won a lot of their matches earlier, was like Park partially because people didn't find a way to stop him. Like you can't just like you can't just drive peak angles, if he's holding that would operate he will, He will punish you for a 10 out of 10 times. So it's really hard for me to say who is like the Dark Horse right now, to be honest, but I'm really excited to see the new jeetu If anything, because like jitsu is a big organization and like it's an organization that have a lot of money and they have a crazy CEO Carlos is He's a good friend. He's a good friend of mine is mine. But but it like it, he's he's something else. He doesn't care to get his hand their hands dirty, if that can make this team better. And that's like eSports needs these kind of CEOs and these kind of teams again to create narratives, because jitsu is now currently the bad boys if you're right. And then and then illiquid, and fanatic are the good guys. You know, they're the good guys that like it's like the station wagon and the dog. It's like the guy you marry and then jitsu is like the leather jackets guy who will break her heart but he's probably good or bad. You know?

Mitch Reames  
It's a perfect analogy. It's a perfect analogy. That's a that's actually so funny. Yeah, I think I don't think Carlos would balk at being described crazy. That's something that is, is core to him. I remember, I had a call site before this I used to write for ad week and I had a call with him and the CMO of MasterCard around the time that gt did that MasterCard, and it was such an interesting mix of two people. You've got like the C suite executive for one of the biggest companies in the world. And then do you have Carlos who is a fantastic businessman, but definitely a little bit out there. So doing that interview with both of them at once was a was just a great dichotomy of like eSports business and how these deals are getting done. I thought it was I thought it was fantastic. So that's the that's my best experience with Carlos right now is talking to him with the CMO of MasterCard on the same line just picture those to do business together is millions upon billions of dollars their deals, which is just very, very fascinating. Yep. So average Joe, this this was that was my last question for you. All that's left for me is to hand you the mic. Let people know where they can find you on the internet. What they should be watching out for coming up for you.

Average Jonas  
Ah, yeah, so I mean, I'm streaming on twitch.tv. Slash avid shown is pretty much seven days a week, I stream 2400 hours in one year now, and I'm not stopping anytime soon. And the grind is real. My goal is to reach a million followers in another year, so I don't have any intentions to slow down. So if you want to come by and watch me sing or play valorant or co stream or whatever, just hit me up, you'll find me on the socials. And if not, then that's okay, too. As long as you're having a good day.

Mitch Reames  
I love it. I'll link all of his socials down below the show. Be sure to follow him. His streams are very unique. I mean, hey, most streamers don't have a singing voice. But he he's got it. I have to ask. I didn't want to do it. But can you give me a line from you don't know your silver for? Just to close it just for me.

Average Jonas  
Okay, okay. Okay. Let's see. Let's see it has it. Which which line is the best one and that one?

Average Jonas  
Even my grandma, it's better. Amen. When you stare at the ground, it isn't hard to say I don't actually remember when you're sober for Oh, wait, what I you know what it's been? It's almost like it feels like it's 10 years ago.

Mitch Reames  
Internet years five years ago is 10 years ago. That's true. That is about how long that was? Yeah. You you flash your team when you remember? I remember I remember. Yeah. It's like It's like, would you flush it? I was just watching it because I remember watching it when it came out. And yeah, I was just watching again. I was like, this is a masterpiece. This is so so good. So I'll be sure to link it below. It's a it's a when you flash yourself. It ain't hard to see the silver fork. Right, exactly. I won't say it. I'll spare you that. I'll spare you that. I

Average Jonas  
think I'm gonna share a throwback to one of those songs on Twitter today. That's a good that's a good thing to post.

Mitch Reames  
You should do it he should do it like like he said average notice of all the Twitch streamers. He is definitely not average. He does so many things. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate you coming on and looking forward to seeing what you do coming up. Thank you.