How do we decide whether it's good or bad to intervene in global warming or growing inequality? Or how to treat our dog? Phil Zuckerman has written a new book giving a foundational framework for secular - nonreligious - morality. In this conversation Phil talks with Bart Campolo about the four reasons you can't get morality from God, and the ways to build a secular ethic that, he thinks, is a better one. They discuss the problems with a God-based morality, the Euthyphro Dilemma and the nature of morality itself. They get into a debate about how objective morality is, and talk about how to get an 'ought' from an 'is'. And, hopefully, they'll leave you with the idea that the basis for how unbelievers act in the world is not grounded on nothing.