252: Expat Power Couples with Yvonne Quahe

Sundae welcomes back Yvonne Quahe to kick off a new three-part series that answers tough questions expats love to avoid. The ladies discuss the punishing landscape often faced by the accompanying spouse. As the author of “Whose Career - Yours Mine or Ours?” Yvonne shares her well-researched wisdom behind how happy expat couples navigate life using a team-focused mentality.

The post 252: Expat Power Couples with Yvonne Quahe appeared first on Sundae Schneider-Bean, LLC..

When you think of famous power couples, these celebrity duos may come to mind: Beyoncé and Jay-Z. Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. Ellen DeGeneres and Portia de Rossi. Barack and Michelle Obama.

According to Brides.com, “A power couple is a couple who both compliments each other’s strengths and supports each other’s individuality. They are considered role models when it comes to relationships.”

Sometimes, that’s a #goal that can seem particularly out-of-reach for expats couples. Accompanying partners often feel like their strengths are underutilized, collecting dust on a shelf right next to their rusting individuality.

Then comes the guilt of “OK, you agreed to this life, and now you’re complaining. This feels like sabotage.”

But the shared decision doesn’t soften that the accompanying spouse pays a very high price to maneuver a punishing landscape. There’s a unique cruelty to being capable, well-educated, and willing yet having nowhere to use your gifts.

It’s my pleasure to welcome back Yvonne Quahe as we kick off a new three-part series that answers tough questions expats love to avoid. You might remember Yvonne for her stellar advice in episode 197: Dual-Career Couples.

On top of her role as lead for the World Bank Group Family Network, Yvonne’s also an HR facilitator, a coach, and the author of: Whose Career – Yours Mine or Ours? (I promise, you won’t be able to put it down.)

This week, Yvonne helps us confront the elephant in the room for many accompanying partners: “And what about my career?” She shares her well-researched wisdom behind how happy expat couples navigate life using a team-focused mentality. 

What You’ll Learn in this Episode:

The Turn-Taking Model
Collision of three types of loss
Modernizing systems to include same-sex couples
Alternative reward structure for non-career seekers
Common pitfalls & golden rules

Listen to the Full Episode

No, it’s not too good to be true. YOU CAN control your own job security, be the boss of your own company, work when you want, do what you love, and from any corner of the world. International organizations are partnering with coaches at record rates and the expat community needs your support now more than ever. Join us in Expat Coach Coalition and hurry, registration is wrapping up, so grab YOUR spot right here. 

Featured on the Show:

 

Global Life in the Hard Resource Roundup
Expat Coach Coalition
Yvonne Quahe Website
Yvonne Quahe Twitter
Yvonne Quahe Facebook
Whose Career – Yours, Mine or Ours?
Sundae’s Facebook Business Page – Sundae Schneider-Bean LLC

 

Catch These Podcasts / Articles:

EP197: Dual-Career Couples

 

We’re delighted by our nomination to the global Top 25 Expat Podcasts! 

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Full Episode Transcript:

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Hello. It is 10:00 am in New York, 4:00 pm in Johannesburg, and 9:00 pm in Bangkok. Welcome to the Expat Happy Hour. This is Sundae Schneider-Bean from www.sundaebean.com. I am a solution-orientated coach and intercultural strategist for individuals and organizations. I am on a mission to help you adapt and succeed when living abroad and get you through any life transition.

So my sister and I ran an impromptu FaceTime call. For some reason, I was woken up from a storm and happened to check my phone, saw my sister was online and what do you know? We’re having a call around midnight. And I can’t tell you how it came up but during our call, she said to me, “Sundae, just in case you don’t know, I’d like to be cremated.” 

 

I thought, “What? Okay. Okay, but what about me? What do I want? Where would I put my ashes?” And we had this conversation that followed about questions that we actually don’t want to answer. It’s kind of one of those questions where I want to put my fingers in my ears and go, “La, la, la.” Just pretend that these questions don’t need to be answered. 

 

So of course that is when I committed to doing a three-part series on: Tough Questions We Like to Avoid But Do Need to Answer. 

 

And today’s episode kicks it off with a question that many couples face, but as it is with cremation, we don’t want to answer it. The question that an author and former guest of Expat Happy Hour has posed is: So, Whose Career is it Going to Be? Yours or mine or ours? And this is a question I’ve had to face in my own relationship. And for any family that’s out there, living a globally mobile life, maybe you face it too. If you decide to adopt or you have children that adds yet another layer of complexity.  What if you are in a bi-national marriage and you’ve spent your whole time trying to find your feet in your partner’s home country? Suddenly, they’re faced with the job that will bring them outside of the place that you worked so hard to create home. 

 

These are critical questions. And what is at stake? Is it an assignment abroad? A career? Relationship? Or maybe even the consolation of a family? Big questions. Uncomfortable to talk about. But well, worth answering with intention and that is exactly why I’ve invited back our special guest Yvonne Quahe to Expat Happy Hour today. Yvonne, welcome back to Expat Happy Hour. 

 

Yvonne: Well Sundae, thank you very much for having me. Can I just respond about the cremation? 

 

Sundae: Yes, I’d love to hear an answer! 

 

Yvonne: I’m from Singapore and we don’t have a choice. So we will be cremated. But I too was asked that question, “So what shall we do with your ashes?” And suddenly, I thought, “Well, you know what, I wanted to be scattered in the warm sea.” Any warm sea. I hate cold seawater and cold water in life. So why would I want it in another life? 

 

Sundae: Beautiful! 

 

Yvonne: Warm water!

 

Sundae: I love it. Okay, I’m going to say just for the record, I want to be in Lake Sakakawea, my home state, and where I grew up. So if I don’t ever answer this question officially, take this answer from my podcast. But in all seriousness, I’m so happy you decided to join me again. For those who recognize Yvonne, she was in episode 197: Dual-Career Couples. And we talked about this question at the time, your book was in process and now it has hit the shelves. And what I love about your work is that you have actually looked at the complexity of this, added to the cultural complexity that comes with it, gender dynamics, all kinds of things that come into play. And you’ve given the tools to answer the question in a way if it’s done well, everybody wins. 

 

So before we dive in with Yvonne, I just want to tell the listeners a little bit more about you. For those of them who didn’t catch our first episode, Yvonne is the World Bank Group family network lead. She’s also a facilitator, a coach and an HR professional and an author of the book that we’re talking about today: Whose Career- Yours Mine or Ours? And so we’re really happy for you to take the time today to help us understand why this question is so important and the process on how people can come to their own answers. So before we dive in, I’m just curious, why did you write a book about this question?

 

Yvonne: Well, because really both in my own life, starting in my own life, and in my work, in the course of my work, which is over 20 years, pushing 25 years, I have seen that particularly the accompanying partner just pays such a high price for this and more people are unhappy than happy with their lives. Although on the surface and many of them say, “You know, people say to me, ‘Why? What are you complaining about?’” Sometimes even their spouses don’t understand, “What is this? You have everything. You have a good life.” Depending on location, “You even have household help and you’re still not happy. So what’s wrong?” So I think it really is that also the demographic is changing and women, in particular, are well-educated, extremely capable, and I think in a way somewhat cruel where they have nowhere to go with it after a while. 

 

And so actually, this is after the fact, but I had a huge “ah ha” since writing the book and talking to many, many people who have reacted, and responded to and I’ve suddenly really suddenly realized why it’s so challenging. It is challenging because it’s the collision of three types of loss. 

 

Sundae: Hmm. 

 

Yvonne: It is the Ambiguous Loss. It’s like the father who’s there, but not there and so, you can’t bring closure to this, especially if you move from rotation to rotation. Then that is the Hidden Loss, which is the loss that comes with transition grief, a loss of a lifestyle, your friends, the relationship, the place you were before. And then if you go to the definition of dual-career couples, dual-career couples, actually, one of the traits is that apart from financial reward, they look for Psychic Reward. And when you can’t continue your career, your psychic reward is also lost. 

 

So when these three losses, collide, the biggest loss actually never brings you closer because you keep repeating it. Because every time you move, you hope something will be different. And guess what? It’s different but it’s the same.

 

Sundae: Right? Exactly, exactly. And there’s things that are going on outside of you which are put in front of you as if it should fulfill you. But they’re not. A lot of my clients say they’re happy but unsatisfied, that’s why we start working together. I think that fits. So this is wonderful. The kick-off by talking about that triple loss and it goes into what you talk about in your book about the “Punishing landscape,” for the accompanying partners. Part of it are the losses that are hidden and the disruptors that are there in our lives. 

 

Can you say more? And I’m guessing the listeners don’t really need to know what the punishing landscape is because they probably live it. But for those who are maybe not the accompanying partner or maybe even people who are in part of an organization and are listening because they want to learn more. What belongs to that punishing landscape? 

 

Yvonne: Okay. Well, the obvious, I classify the loss as the internal and external losses. The external losses are nothing that you can control up to a point, you can control, what part of the situation, language challenges, the lack of employment opportunities, right? Because in many countries in principle, you can work but then by the time you prove all the different conditions, you actually can’t get the permit. Especially when local unemployment is very high. And the other myth, a lot of people put forward the idea of the expat entrepreneur. I think it’s a great idea in one sense because it gives you control. But on the other hand, I talked to a lot of particularly well educated women who, I’m not saying entrepreneurs are not well-educated, but those who have dedicated many years of study, they really don’t want to be entrepreneurs and some don’t have it in them. If I’m a research scientist, I just want to do research. I don’t I can’t turn my research quite into entrepreneurship. You see what I mean? 

 

Sundae: Exactly. 

 

Yvonne: And so I think those are the challenges. I think we’ve touched on the internal challenges and I want to connect with what you said earlier Sundae. You said a lot of your clients feel that then satisfied in the end. They might be happy but not satisfied. Now, those are two different things. 

 

Now the satisfaction I think in the old days there was this idea of the career in your suitcase, get onto the board, you know, fake it till you make it and things like that. So you do — it’s very short-term thinking, you do what’s at hand, what’s in front of you. And in the end, there is no satisfaction because it’s not related to your core. It’s not related to your strength, you’re just doing it because opportunity presents itself. Now, sometimes in doing that, we discover something new. And those are the ones that I think are really happy when quote-on-quote career experiments turn out to be a calling. But if you actually look at the numbers, you will see that more than 50%, I can’t remember it off, accompanying partners say that they are not satisfied with their careers. Even those who can work report underemployment, particularly, right? And so that I think, sort of very clearly shows that reason why sometimes you end up feeling very not satisfied.

 

If somebody said to me, “I’ve given and given and given. My spouse is very successful. My children are fine. But now, what about me, twenty years later?”

 

Sundae: I can’t help but listen to this and not think that this is directly tied to gender dynamics, historical gender dynamics. That this model, you know, my actually, I think she’s my great aunt if you want to call her that she was in Brazil back in, I don’t know the 60s, could be when they just had one telephone that they would call once a month and write letters. That was a totally different time and it was at a time where women were just breaking into a new way of gaining a foothold, career-wise, right? And there’s this thing that I’m feeling like this conversation of, “Let’s just keep you busy while I’m at work, honey.” It just means we could not imagine reversing the roles and having that be okay. 

 

It’s like on the Facebook feed, the man who has it all, he always does like reversals of gender dynamics and you always laugh at them because you see how ridiculous it is when you do the reversal and I kind of feel like that’s what happened. We’ve moved on from a gender dynamic perspective, much faster than our organizational systems and employment systems have moved forward. 

 

Yvonne: Yes, I think so. And in an odd, sort of way, I would even dare to say we ourselves deep down inside, if you talk about to flip to the male accompanying spouse, one of the challenges that male accompanying spouse has is what culture says to them and what they’ve been raised. So for them, that is a real dissonance. There’s a part of them that understands this new gender dynamic, and cultural dynamic. And there’s another part that is wrestling constantly with, “Have I failed my parents?” And sometimes, I remember someone telling me that his mother would say, “You’re not doing the cooking are you?” or, you know, feeling that, “So, why did you do this?” Those kinds of questions and you feel you’ve let the people close to you down. 

 

So in many ways, they have more of a cultural struggle, I think within and without than women do. Women have other struggles. But they’re not the same ones, I don’t think. But what I’m finding interesting, back to your aunt in the 60s, the women, I think women in the 70s and 80s, are just on that cusp. And those who followed the traditional model in the 80s are women in the 60’s and are now finding 20 years later, “Gosh. What’s there left for me?” 

 

Sundae: Hmm. 

 

Yvonne: They haven’t been unhappy on the move. But there it’s slowly beginning to dawn on them, “What about me then?” 

 

Sundae: Yes, I have women who are in their 50s and are asking, “Now, what?” Right now that the nest is empty, and their partner’s career has progressed for 15 years. They’re now asking themselves, “Now, what?” They wouldn’t regret a day of what they’ve done but they’re now wondering what’s next. So we’ve looked at some of the gender dynamics for women and how that’s changing historically. You’ve touched on the male accompanying spouse, which then challenges old gender dynamics, but now puts the men in a position to now have to fight against gender norms on the other side, right? And then there’s also same-sex couples. So if we look at the dynamic that this rotational expat life was created was based on a heterosexual couple. So then there’s another set of challenges for same-sex couples when they’re living this life.

 

Yvonne: Absolutely. 

 

Sundae: So, so far, it’s been kind of a rough image that we’ve talked about the punishing landscape, right? The things that are disruptive in our lives and the losses, but this — I’m the first person to say that, choosing, if you have the ability and the privilege to choose to live abroad and be able to have work that gives you stability, I’m the first person to say do it. So what are some of the things that you think are important for people to do when they want to say “yes” to this life and they want to support both people in the relationship? And that idea of career is sitting asking them the question, whether it is theirs, mine or both. 

 

Yvonne: Okay. Well, I think the first thing is that the couple have to have conversations and I called it in the book: Care Conversations. They are often difficult and uncomfortable because you have to talk about the things you don’t want, sometimes that you have to look at the failures in your relationship, the things that perhaps maybe you haven’t done to support your spouse. Not necessarily what the spouse hasn’t done to support you, right? And so it requires a certain measure of emotional capacity on the sides of the individual as well as trust and being able to answer those questions about what really matters to us. What kind of life do we want?

 

Earlier at the beginning of the podcast, you said, but what If you adopt a child? What if children you have children in the family? What do you do? How do we move forward on this with equity? When I say equity, I don’t mean equality. I mean equity in the sense of equal access to opportunity for both couples. So one of the things I suggest in the book, there are two case studies which are very very interesting to look at. One is case study one, which is the Turn-Taking Model. Which is that way you bring equity. And actually, I’ve been thinking about it more and more and people who had done it say, the turn-taking is very successful and that is because from the position of loss. There is reprieve from that loss when you take turns so I leave, you leave, I leave, you leave, right? So at some point for three to five years, say that is reprieve, and that’s why I think emotionally turn-taking works. 

 

Sundae: Right, and when I’m hearing is that there’s just something in my body that settles and it goes to the, I’m not going to give away all the rules, but you give these Eight Golden Rules, and it really highlights how you need to be equally invested in each other, right? And each other’s path and you talk about sharing the ups and downs of your career with each other that it’s not just one person takes the entire hit. And then the other person has the skyrocket effect on their career. And that’s a bold approach. It really is a bold approach. And it does go to a sense of equity and right away in my head when I hear that, I think our organizations are not designed for that approach. 

 

Yvonne: Now then where it will get to what organization you can do, but for the moment, I want to also talk about case study four where what was what is very interesting because in case study four that is the traditional model of primary, secondary. A male accompanying spouse, but in that, you actually see what he does is carve out an identity for himself. So if we go back to the collision of losses. If you go back to that framework, you’ll see what he has done is that, by carving a new identity, he’s actually brought closure to that ambiguous loss. “I’m not looking for a career anymore, I’m now looking for psychic reward elsewhere.”

 

Sundae: And not everybody wants to have a career. Exactly. 

 

Yvonne: And he chose not to, of course. He was a mid-career person who was often out of it, not opted out or he chose not to continue but he gets a psychic reward. And in every location, he has become a sporting champion of some sort, whether it was in Australia, it was golf, when they were in Switzerland, it was cycling. Now that they are in Eastern Europe, Croatia it’s actually a triathlon. So he has carved an identity for himself and he gets that psychic reward. It’s not a hotchpotch. It actually is something that relates to his core. Now what was very interesting is that they have a team vision, they’re very “our” centered. And most interestingly, I think that’s one of the few couples who have a shared bank account. 

 

Sundae: That was exactly what I was thinking about was money, because that is where things get unequitable, right? When one person brings in the money and then, therefore, holds the power. So how does that work? And so the team effort so there they share money and they share purpose. But their purpose is different. 

 

Yvonne: And that purpose, but they have a common overarching goal, which is a life of adventure and travel which they both won. They both make a contribution, but in a different way. And I really like it because in actually, in her interview, she told me that he actually said, “If you’re going to work, you need to let me be that the stay-at-home dad because if you don’t and you try to do both,” and I think this is so true that, “I have no role anymore. You’re doing everything.” And she had to learn to stumble through his learning curve as it were. The food might not be so good. Maybe the kids are not the way I would have done it. But she realized that she had to give him something to do. And if she kept interfering, he would then have no role. 

 

Sundae: Wonderful.

 

Yvonne: And I think that’s quite important not to criticize, especially in role reversal, where many of the male accompanying spouses have told me, “We’ve got to learn a lot of basic skills that we never,” I mean, I think the younger men are probability more equipped but you know, those who are 40 and above, 45 and above, are not used to it, 

 

Sundae: Right? So giving each other space. I’m also hearing and that couplehood they were really clear around boundaries, responsibilities. Who was in charge of what and asserting what your needs are, and having ownership? And that’s when you talk about the care code, why having regular conversations is so important. 

 

Yvonne: And that’s why it developed that, I developed, in the book, you’ll read how the seeds were sown in our own life. As usual, I always feel I have to walk through it myself so that when I put something out, I actually know it works. And with this care conversations, many people have said, “I just don’t know where to begin. But how do we talk about this?” And therefore, the care code sort of helps you start somewhere and it keeps sort of what I call, some parameters for the discussion and if it sort of degenerates into conflict, one partner can pull back and say, “Look, let’s just focus on the see. We’re straying now into other areas. So let’s just focus on whatever you happen to be discussing at the time.” And I think in the end, it really comes down to three what I call the Care Habits. Because life changes, the pace of life is so fast and the three things I think– and our individual histories are so different as families, right? And that there are three things I think is to have regular conversations, agree and respect your no-go zones, and I think the maximum can be three. Once there are more than three, nobody can respect those boundaries. It’s just too many, it’s cognitive overload. It’s impossible. And to make shared decisions because all autonomy is important to individuals, to all of us. Even in the cultures where it looks as if certain parties don’t have autonomy, autonomy is a human need. And so it is important if you want to experience it as a win-win that you feel you had a choice in this, that you had some stake in it. Otherwise, I do think you feel you’re following or being dragged along.

 

Sundae: Exactly. And what I notice is then there’s deep resentment that gets seated and what happens is it will come out after it’s been festering for a long time. And the one with the lead assignment is like, “You said ‘yes,’ every single time. I asked you every time,” and it feels like almost sabotage because the lead assignment Individual always brought the options to the table in conversation. but if you are — and you talk about pitfalls in the book, if you are already, already letting your career aspirations come second and not articulating them, then you’re not having that conversation. You’re not really in the conversation because you’re already putting yourself second and then it ends up being harmful to the relationship later. 

 

Yvonne: I think, Sundae you stumbled on something that’s so true. It’s always “in the later” because in the short term, it always looks pretty okay. Say I’m having a really hard time at work, things are not going as well as I anticipated and my partner comes home and says, “Hey, why don’t we move to South Africa?” And if I like — and actually, I do love Africa, so it will be easy to say, “Yeah, why not.” And, let’s just go. And you think, “Good. I don’t have to deal with that.” That’s the subtext. Okay? And off I go, and it’s only until three to four years later or maybe sooner than that, you suddenly realize, “Oh gosh. What did I do? What was that about? What did I do?” 

 

So I think you know sometimes, this taking the second place or not be fully present in the conversation as it were, it’s inadvertent, depending on what happens. Sometimes, it happens during mid-career. Usually, you have a mid-career what you call it, not a mid-career crisis, but mid-career reassessment around, but 12 to 15 years, you’ve been doing this, not the same thing, but relatively similar career experiences and you think, “Oh, maybe I need a change.” So that’s always a moment of reconfirmation or reinvention depending on what you discovered at that point. So if you then get an offer to go, it’s quite easy just to say, “Yeah, why not? I don’t even know if I want to do this anymore and off again I go.” So, I think we’re human and we’re not perfect but I think it is to catch yourself in that moment, in those moments after, and recalibrate and not just drift into, “Ah well. Now I’ve done this, I’ve given up my career,” because the more you drift, the further the swim back to shore it is. 

 

Sundae: Oh, absolutely. 

 

Yvonne: Some people, some people get lost in the sea as well. 

 

Sundae: Yes. And so what it makes me think about what these conversations is not having the conversations when the new list comes out, so to speak. Like if the assignment rotation ends or it’s the next promotion having these conversations before a critical turning point because what I’ve watched is with my own life and what I’ve watched with my client’s lives is for the person in the lead assignment, if they can start planting seeds early not a big shock on the day of an offer landing that then everybody’s onboard, right? So if a spouse says, “Hey, I’m really thinking about going back and getting my master’s degree and that would mean I would have to go back to home base for two years so can you start looking for an assignment back at headquarters?” It wouldn’t tick anybody off if this conversation is happening ongoing. 

 

So you’ve mentioned these two case examples. I want to make sure just in terms of time that we’ve got enough time to go a little bit further with the care model. I want to just highlight to the reader, the model, the care code is great in terms of giving you steps on what you can do as individuals in this, as a couple. What I love too, Yvonne names the pitfalls like you have 12 pitfalls. I’m like, “Oh, yeah, seen that one, seen that one. Lived that one. Done that one,” right? They’re really good for people to be aware of. And I think this is what value you add is, “Wait a minute. Are we doing that? Are we making do with what is at hand rather than focusing on your own career?” Right? Like, “Are we doing that?” I think that’s wonderful. 

But what do you think? What do you think most couples failed to do when it comes to pitfalls that they should really open their eyes to?

 

Yvonne: I think, I don’t know. I think the pitfalls are very individual. I think what I have done with the pitfalls is make the implicit explicit. So I would say is that you get the book. Unfortunately, you’ll have to perhaps if you want to see what the pitfalls are, or fortunately, and go through and as Sundae said, “Done that, live that. Is this me?” And then I think many couples I know, who’ve told me what they do is they read it to each other and then they use that as a jumping-off point for their own this reflection and say, “Gosh, have we done this. What can we do now?” Kind of thing. 

 

So, I mean to me if there’s one thing I think is the importance of sharing your real fears and sometimes you don’t know all of them at the time. And I think the other one is really making shared decisions and being equally invested in each other. I think those are important things. But, I know in the interest of time, I do want to say that organizations need to help to.

 

Sundae: Exactly. 

 

Yvonne: And as you were saying earlier about that two years assignment, maybe we go back to headquarters. So I think, the care framework can be used by organizations in the snow in the sense that they can ask their talent, “What really matters to you?” I think also the assumption that they make that talent is only one person is now no longer strictly accurate. The talent is the team, right? And so they need to ask, some information at least about the partner so that it can be factored in and they are taken as an entity and not one lone ranger, I think. And also I think in terms of the talent management strategy is to factor job — what you call it, the different career functions, to allow, turn-taking. If that person is talented, then it’s worth the investment in taking the time and just having a care conversation. 

 

They can ask you, “Hey, what matters to you and your partner?” and they can assess. A lot of organizations can plan and also use whatever policies they have in hand to help the situation. And I think one is not to penalize flexibility. Say if I want to go on leave of absence for three years. Don’t punish me, don’t take me off the high potential track.

 

Sundae: Who gets to decide what’s worth a move. Right? My parents are aging, my child has an illness. My wife wants to finish her physics degree. Like, who gets to decide what is reasonable? Who gets to say, what is a good choice or not? That’s where it gets really, really sticky I think from an HR perspective and that’s the other thing that you mentioned that I wanted to highlight is if someone makes a request to go back to headquarters for whatever reason, for their other partner to engage in their career, it could be the best decision for the organization because now, both partners are getting their needs met and it isn’t a forced situation where it’s like, “Well either you leave me or you leave your job.” That’s not a nice situation to get into. That it could be a really great long-term investment for an organization when they’re acknowledging the needs of their people. 

 

Yvonne: I think it’s hard work. For one moment, I don’t think it’s going to be easy to do, but I think change can begin by at least having the conversation. Eventually, no change is lasting unless the system’s catch up, and then people have to change their behavior as well. Meaning. I can’t talk to my talent as if they’re one person. I need to consider at least what you said, it’s a hard choice. Eventually, you know, contractually, of course, it is the person you employed, but I think sometimes just the fact that you’ve considered the other in and of itself, I think goes a long way out towards finding the solution where there needs to be a give and take. Because, just one last thing, if you think about the statistics, 90% of organizations say they offer spousal support. 35% of accompanying partners are working. And 70% used to be working prior to assignment. So, what does this tell you? I’ll leave you with this thought. 

 

Sundae: Right, right, and I think what we’ve learned from COVID, is what we used to think wasn’t possible, has now been proven possible. So if we’re looking at new models where an individual’s life phase is taken into account and that might be making space for teens to be into a stable situation. Could be their partner to finish a master’s degree, or whatever it might be, taking care of aging parents. That if we allow for space of their life phase, we might actually get a much longer return out of our investment from an organization perspective. But I do agree with you, Yvonne that you said this takes work. It takes innovative thinking. I also think this is why those who are in the decision-making space if they haven’t lived the life themselves should be talking to people who do live it so that they really understand what’s going on and what the implications are. So, thank you so much for your thoughts today.

 

I really do think this is important for people to prioritize and I’m so excited that you wrote this book because I have a hunch, it’s going to improve people’s quality of life, their relationships, support them in terms of these tough questions with the career and it really does facilitate that. So all of the hours that you spent writing are going to impact people’s lives positively. So, Yvonne, we will put your link in the show notes, so people can find out more about you and where they can get the book. Any last words that you wanted to leave our listeners with today when we talk about this big question of whose career is it going to be- yours, mine, or ours?

 

Yvonne: Well, thank you Sundae, for having me and I always enjoy our conversations together. If I were going to have last words, I would actually say, cultivate an “our” mindset and make shared decisions. I think an “our” mindset will take you a long way. 

 

Sundae: Wonderful. Thank you so much for what you do. I know that you’ve done a lot of research for this book and it’s crossed a huge scope of geographies and cultures and ages, ways of living, sexual orientation, ways of doing family. So I really think that it’s a really important contribution. Thanks again for joining us on Expat Happy Hour. I don’t know about you, but I love this topic. I know that having this book in my hands, 10 years ago, I would have been able to think of new ways of seeing things. It would have made conversations even faster. And I know for my clients it will help them with their tough talks that are ahead. 

So thank you so much for all of that, and thank you for listening to Expat Happy Hour. This is Sundae Schneider-Bean. I’ll leave you with the words from Stephen Covey: “If you’re proactive, you don’t have to wait for circumstances or other people to create perspective expanding experiences. You can consciously create your own.”

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