Audio: #113 - Managing Mental Health During COVID-19 with Professor Steve Joordens

 

Steve Joordens is a professor of psychology at University of Toronto and chief science officer at Cogneeto Inc. and the instructor of the free Coursera course titled "Mind Control: Managing Your Mental Health During COVID-19". His research interest includes but not limited to Consciousness, memory, attention.

In this episode of BTP we bring to you our conversation with Professor Steve Joordens regarding mental health during COVID-19 pandemic, its implications as well as ways to manage it. This conversation does not, by any means, exhaust the material in the course and you are encouraged to take part in this free course on Coursera.

Coursera course: https://www.coursera.org/learn/manage-health-covid-19

Website: https://stevejoordens.ca/

Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/stevejoordens

Show Notes

00:21:00 - Leon Festinger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Festinger

 

Episode Transcript:

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, anxiety, learn, feel, extreme, fight, body, talk, virus, pandemic, day, mind, isolation, control, flee, understand, strategies, world, person, anxious

SPEAKERS

Pouya LJ, Prof. Joordens

 

Pouya LJ  00:17

Hello, Professor Jordans. How are you?

 

Prof. Joordens  00:19

Good, good. Nice to be with you.

 

Pouya LJ  00:20

Thank you. You too. Thank you for taking your time and joining us here today.

 

Prof. Joordens  00:24

Yeah, no, it's fun. I look forward to it.

 

Pouya LJ  00:26

This will be good. Awesome. Now this whole COVID-19 is grand, taking everybody away from different aspects. Now obviously a lot of people are concerning about the physical aspect of the health. You know, getting dividers not getting the virus is quite definitely quite lethal for a lot of people, which is unfortunate. But I've been always quiet for a long time I've been thinking about this from the aspect of mental also health as well, which you're an expert here and yeah, I mean, it I this is my perspective, this is me thinking out loud, basically. But I always feel like, as unfortunate as this whole thing is, eventually we'll for a matter of months, whatever, eventually it will find its own equilibrium, whatever that is. But I'm worried that the mental aspect of this will outlast the pandemic itself. And, yeah, I can transcend that time. And also, you will have a potentially individual, obviously, but potentially societal, and, you know, maybe world impact, and later on how we are going to think about things.

 

Prof. Joordens  01:32

Let me stick a hint of optimism in there. So So, you know, yes, I think that these are extremely challenging times. Psychologically, the the optimism, I'm all about silver linings these days where the optimism is, you know, if you're not anxious right now, you're not paying attention really. So mental health is no longer or mental unease, let's say is no longer just something certain people experience we are all very anxious. So the potential silver lining is that We actually take the time now we have the time to learn what this anxiety response is, and to learn some relatively simple coping strategies for dealing with it so that, you know, maybe that lingering effect is a bunch of people who have now a better ability to kind of take control of their mind and, and be driving their psychology a little bit. So that, you know, that's the hopeful side of that opportunity.

 

Pouya LJ  02:26

Yeah, well, so the lines are great. I think they're great. We need the switch is we do. Alright, so let's get started with Okay, so why do you think from your perspective, that this COVID-19 has has been more disruptive than previous pandemics in our recent history?

 

Prof. Joordens  02:43

Yeah, I mean, it really is amazing. And it honestly took me a while to kind of understand why so many leaders were willing to take such extreme steps at a time when it was, you know, admittedly a little ambiguous what the right thing to do was and so totally shut down. The economy seemed really extreme. However, you know, once we kind of understood at some point that this pandemic, unlike others had the ability to completely overwhelm healthcare services. And as many people say, that would have taken down the economy anyway. So if we had just sort of allowed it to go, but the funny thing is, psychologically, it's not funny. The odd thing is the the prescription that we all are being asked to take, you know, the isolation really goes against our primary coping strategy, which is, you know, when we suffer anxiety or stress or grief or anything like that we reach out to other human beings and emotionally connect with them. You know, the, the strongest version of that would be a hug, reaching out to hug someone. My dog is upset by some animal.

 

03:52

Welcome to the new world. So, you know, oh, it's a squirrel. Yes.

 

Prof. Joordens  03:59

She's loving So yeah, that I'm completely confused now what was?

 

Pouya LJ  04:06

Actually I lost the two. I think you were talking? Yeah, yeah. I think you were talking about the economy after that. Oh, yeah.

 

Prof. Joordens  04:18

So So, yeah, I mean, I take issue with the term social distancing, because that's not what we need. Right now. We need physical distancing. It's the disease travels through space, not through our social networks. And so, in fact, we need to come socially together. But I think that is what's made this such a difficult thing for us is, you know, we're saying people are saying, here's what you have to do. And by the way, what you have to do will deprive you of your primary way of coping with what we're telling you to do. And so I think we all now have to And literally, I'm pretty heavy on this where we have to learn how to control our anxiety, because if we allow it to continue for too long, there's a lot of great work by Hon. So years ago, for chronic stress or chronic activation of this fight or flight system, which is what it is, it eventually wears down our immune system. So if we allow the anxiety to just rule, we will eventually become compromised and our immune system and and therefore wide open to catching the virus ourselves. So, so you know, we really have to take the time now. And the good news is, it's not that complex a system, and it's not that hard to learn to control it. And there's certainly no, you know, Freudian Voodoo involved, what we're talking about is physiology, it really comes down to our basic physiology and being able to control it much like, you know, a guru, although they're, they're more extreme, but we hear the stories of a guru who could slow their heart rate down to the point where they're almost seemed like they're, they're dead, you know, using the mind to control the physiology of the body. That's an extreme case, they spend years learning how to do that, but a much less extreme case can be learned much more quickly.

 

Pouya LJ  05:58

Okay, and so What do you think is the primary reason for this whole psychological toll we're experiencing?

 

Prof. Joordens  06:05

Yeah, well, let let me give you just a taste of the the, what the system is supposed to do. And then we'll talk about why this is so nasty. So it's really meant, you know, most of the time our bodies are in this what we call parasympathetic mode, which, which is when the body focuses on things like digestion, getting nutrients out of food, separating the waste delivering the nutrients to the body, kind of like maintenance on our on our body. But let's say a predator, suddenly, you know, jumps out of a bush, our bodies can go into the sympathetic mode, and when it goes into the sympathetic mode, digestion stops, and the body is prepared to either fight or flee. So we breathe faster, our heart beats faster, that's getting blood all through our body, it's delivering oxygen to our muscles, it's making us very strong, but it's also giving us that sort of energy. And the idea is we're supposed to use that energy to either fight this predator or get the heck away from it. Either way. Whatever happens is usually over in like 10 minutes. And when it's over, then the system can relax again. The problem is the predator nowadays is COVID. We don't even really understand what it is we know it's very dangerous. We don't know how long it's going to be around, and it ain't going nowhere. And so we can't flee. It seems impossible to flee. It's unclear how to fight it. But I think we are part of my advices we have to realize that some of the things we're doing is fighting it, we have to tell our body because this fight or flee system kind of comes up with this imperative do something. It's like we're driven, we have to do something. And so one of the parts of the psychological well being is is convincing yourself you are doing some things that certain things like staying home is actually a very powerful way to have an effect here. But yeah, that's the feeling. So that's what we all have is this chronically engaged fight or flee system and it's expensive. bad because of all the ambiguity, you know, we'll hear it's going to be over and if the worst is two weeks from now, and then a little while later you hear well, we could be doing this till you know 2022 so this is ambiguous stuff that our brain does not like, our brain likes to predict the future and it can't right now.

 

Pouya LJ  08:20

Like Yeah, and the fact that the active fight thing that that we can do is to remain passive kind of Yeah, yes, kind of paradox that we don't appreciate, I guess.

 

Prof. Joordens  08:29

It is and I actually highlight when it when I talk about you know, how family should talk to children. I think it's very important to you know, not say the following do not say, you know, we're hiding it at home because there's this evil virus and we don't want to catch it. It sounds sort of like a hiding away thing. Instead, it's much better to say to children, you know, you are not at risk, probably heartland at all. And even we, the parents are probably not at that much risk. But there's all these other people in the community that are and there are these healthcare workers that are on the front lines that are working really hard. And so what we're doing here by staying home is is sort of actively doing our part to keep the viruses small, kind of like we're all fighting to keep the sucker as small as we can keep it. And people do have to play that mental trick because this as you said, it feels passive. But you have to convince students this is active, the more active you can make it, the better. By the way, I also suggest things like, if you have a young family, and if you know somebody who's older, who maybe alone, and maybe isn't very tech savvy, if you could adopt a person or two, and just commit to calling them every day, and tell your kids you know, we're doing this for these people, they need some social support, they need to know we care. So we're going to do this that feels more active. And you can tell the kid you know, this is part of how we are fighting the virus as well. So yeah, if you can come up with active things that feel like you're doing something because that's what your body is screaming, do something. If you feel like some way to do that, then that's very powerful. Hmm,

 

Pouya LJ  10:00

interesting. Good to know. And now there's the all of this raises the question, is there any direct, indirect, some sort of link between how deadly this pandemic is? And how, how much panic people get? And like? Yeah, so nearly otherwise? Yeah, I'm sorry.

 

Prof. Joordens  10:17

Yeah, no, absolutely. So one interesting, I'm going to pick on a word you said, because I think it's an interesting word. That's something I'm thinking about quite a bit, which is panic. We actually haven't seen you know, it's, we can talk about how horrible this isn't. It is horrible. From a psychologists point of view. I'm amazed at how compliant people are and have been, you know, we see these people who aren't physically distancing and they annoy us and they should, but they're actually a minority. The vast majority of people have have agreed to this, you know, extreme extreme change in their whole life, lack of finances, in some cases, you know, losing their their money. And so by and large, the lack of panic is impressive. Other than toilet paper, and We haven't seen a whole lot happening. But it's something we have to keep our eyes on again. And you know, when I look at the whole world, I heard a story, I can't remember where it was, there was some place where there was a riot in response to the government telling people to stay home. And I think it only happened a little bit, and it fizzled out. But yeah, so so we're not seeing that. But, you know, I think with respect to the, the chance of death, I worry about older people in that regard, that that people who are younger and relatively healthy, don't feel a fear that they are personally going to be impacted. But if you're 70, or 80, right now, I mean, it's another level, it's a whole, like know that. Most of us will say, we don't want to catch it, because we'd hate to give it to somebody else or something like that. We're not so worried about ourselves, but if you're 70 or 80, and you catch it, that could be it. And so for them, the the threat is far more real, far more of a mortal threat. And so there's is a chance that that could really psychologically be, you know, a harder stone to carry for a lot of older folks, and they may be the hardest ones to reach through social connections and other things, too. So, I am concerned about about a lot of older folks for that reason.

 

Pouya LJ  12:17

And do you so specifically to those people? Do you have anything specific that you are otherwise to, like you mentioned that younger people can call them that's good. But specifically, if you're just talking to that group of people, is there anything you wouldn't want to say to them,

 

Prof. Joordens  12:31

I mean, I would say don't be shy on your side to call other people. You know, if you have a little if you're like most older people, you probably got a bunch of numbers written in a in some sort of flip thing or whatever. Go through the numbers at different days, pick two or three people and and maybe old friends and maybe people your age who may be in your situation. If you can get a sort of buddy group going where you just agree. You know, you're going to touch base with each other now and then through the day that can Really kind of give some of these people something to think about something to look forward to. And it can make them feel less alone while they're alone. So those social connections are great. The other thing I would say for these people and I say this, in the course I have about managing anxiety, I talked about strategies. And one of the things I claim is you have to get away from the anxiety you can't, you can't just have running away all the time. And there are easy ways to get away you can distract your mind. And for an older group like that, especially if you have somebody in your family maybe that's like that, find the music that was, you know, popular when they were in their 20s you know, somewhere from 16 to 26 or something, if you can figure out what music you might not have heard of any of this stuff, but you play that music for them, create a little playlist do what you can to get that music into their environment. It will transform them, it will make them smile, it will make them sing, and those are all positive. They release things into the body. endorphins that are that are fighting the anxiety response. And so those people need a break from the anxiety and music is just all powerful in that regard. And if you can find the right music, the music they know and that they haven't heard for years, that will light them up. And so that's just one little strategy, I would toss it there.

 

Pouya LJ  14:17

Okay, that's actually great. I never would have thought of it. Now, you mentioned that sometimes we need to get away from it and distract ourselves. Now that brings me to my next question, actually. Is news helping us like is it making it worse? And if so, should we stop or limit? I mean, I guess to a degree, you can't stop because you have to know what you should comply with and not. But should we limit our exposure to news media and others? Yeah,

 

Prof. Joordens  14:41

absolutely. So that's exactly when we talk about the simple strategies. What ends up in your mind gets there two ways, either internal thoughts, something internal pushes something into your mind or the world, you know, bring something to us. And so we can use the world to change our mind, so to speak, so So yeah, if we look at, I guess, the negative side, so the news I would put on the negative side, and it's a fascinating thing at a time like this, because there's so much uncertainty, we become information addicts. And I mean that in the in the same way you're addicted to your smartphone, if something delivers you rewards on a sort of random basis. And so you know, somebody just shared your post, which makes you feel good. And so that's great, you put the phone down, but somebody might share it immediately right after you put the phone down. So maybe you better check to make sure somebody hasn't just shared it again. And if you never know when that's going to come you keep checking in Yeah. And so now we have, we want information, we want to know what's going on. And the news delivers us that information. And so we will have this natural tendency to want to keep checking and keep checking and keep checking like our phones. But every time you look at the news, your brain is getting this message you are under threat. There is this nasty thing out there. And so it's feeding the anxiety and is getting you anxious. So but as you say you want that information, so what do you do you budget. What I claim is, you know, maybe a couple times a day, you actually budget times in your day where you say, Okay, I'm going to consume the news at that time. But do things like if you have any news apps on your phone, turn off those notifications, like don't let the news control you and get you, you know, control your mind, you say, Okay, I am going to allow you into my mind for a while. I then claim once you're done watching the news, you should use what I'm now calling a sort of cognitive palate cleanser, kind of like when you eat some food, and then you will eat something neutral to kind of get that taste out of your mouth. After you watch the news plan to watch something else that will engage your mind and that'll be different for all of us. But But if there's something that you watch on TV or something that you know, playing a video game or whatever, if it pulls your mind away from anxiety, learn what those things are, you know, pay attention to those that whole when I was like, for me, it's Garage Band and playing with, you know, musical stuff in the basement. When I'm doing that everything else goes away. And so if you learn those things, those things become powerful leavers. For you watch the news, do one of those so that you know, you let your head go there, but then you pull your head back away from that. So that kind of thing can be how, you know, when I talked about living in isolation, that's the sort of trick is that's budget your day, schedule your day, and and put in good stuff along with the anxiety stuff because we're not going to get rid of the anxiety when the goal is to manage it, not to lose it, you'll

 

Pouya LJ  17:27

never lose it. Okay, fair enough. Now, we mentioned the old people like, age groups aside, are there any types of people that are more susceptible to being more struggling with this?

 

Prof. Joordens  17:38

Yeah, so I get asked this question a lot. And I mean, the truth, the absolutely 100% truth is, we've not done any psychology experiment, anything like this. You know, when when we look at isolation, we look at things like solitary confinement in prison, which is very different than what we're all dealing with. We'll also look at social isolation, so people who have trouble you know, being played heard of any group and we know what that does. But this kind of isolation is something brand new. And so I get asked by reporters if people are already anxious or depressed, or if they have, you know, issues, are they going to be double hit? And I don't know, I've, I've asked some people that I know. And there are some surprising anecdotes the other way where, you know, one of the things I was told by somebody is I'm not alone anymore. I felt like I was the only one suffering for this anxiety thing. And now I have all these friends who understand how I feel. So from one perspective, that was good, and I heard from another person that, you know, they are they had already learned some of these coping strategies as part of managing their own mental health. And so now they felt like they were kind of equipped and that there's all these other sort of naive people who suddenly are discovering what anxiety feels like and don't know how to manage it. So it's possible that some of them are better equipped and that it's not hitting them, you know, double hard as we might think. But we're not seeing you know, nobody's collecting a lot of good data right now, which is probably a shame. Probably would be good be collecting some good data. So I don't know if we know, we know things like abuse is up, you know, a lot of that kind of, so there's stresses that come with being stuck in a place with a person that may exacerbate any anxiety or depression, but I don't know if the isolation itself. Yeah, we just don't know.

 

Pouya LJ  19:25

Okay, fair enough. Now, that's good. That's good. Actually, I admire that. And that's one of the things I admire in science. We don't know we just say we don't know. We don't know figure it out soon, hopefully. But yeah, I do the hand as you mentioned, there, bunch of people like group maybe minority that really don't take this seriously. And another question arises, why is that and is it just because they don't believe in danger? Or do you think they're immune? And is it as bad as before?

 

Prof. Joordens  19:50

So there's, there's some psychology we can bring to bear on that which is, which is kind of interesting. And the first thing I want to I want to sort of throw out there is I think for some for some People it is sort of a macho thing and I can't wrap my head around that to be honest. Like I think of our hurricanes bearing down and you see those people who are out in the beach even though hurricanes coming down. That's kind of okay, I guess because it's you're risking your own life. And if you want to be an idiot and risk your own life, that's that's one thing. But the problem here is, you know, I really think of this virus as a monster that's, that's growing, that the healthcare community is trying to fight but if it grows too big, they're not going to be able to fight it. And so most of us are doing our best to try to keep the monster small, where these people are feeding the monster and they're feeding the monster themselves, their families, their friends, families, and I almost think they need an image like this. I'm a big fan of you know, rational argument doesn't work sometimes with people but just depicting them as the person feeding the virus and making it bigger while the healthcare people are getting you know, attacked by it. That's how they should should think of it. So why you know, don't they get there, there's a there's a really funny set of a Psychology experiments that were started by someone called Leon Festinger, and it's come to be known as cognitive dissonance. But the first the story of his first study is a good one. I like it. He was doing his daily thing. I think it was in New York. And there was somebody who was gaining some prominence who claim that the world was ending. She knew this because she was in contact with aliens, she would go into a trance, and the aliens would speak to her and she would write with her non dominant hand stuff and whatever she wrote that that came from the aliens. And so the aliens basically said the world was coming to an end, they gave an exact date. But of course, they were going to bring a spaceship down and save a few people who followed her. And so a bunch of people did this is what Leon Festinger was kind of interested in a bunch of people sold all their stuff, and you know, went to hang out with her and waited for this date. And Leon, being a good psychologist said, wonder what they're gonna think about the day after. I want to talk so he figured out who these people were and he made a point They after the world ended to go seek them out. And the question was, would they all say, Oh, I was an idiot. So let's imagine, you know, the people who said, Oh, it's not going to be that bad, this pandemic isn't gonna be that bad. You're all overreacting. What you found when you talk to these people is that they after they did not think they were idiots, they in fact, felt like something had gone wrong. Of course, the person was now in touch with aliens and aliens had postponed the date or something wouldn't have. But they were very willing to believe all of this stuff. They were very unwilling to accept that their original position was a stupid one. Humans don't like telling ourselves we're stupid and will twist the facts and will twist all sorts of things to do that. And so I think for a lot of people, you know, back when we were talking about how extreme that that choice was to shut down the economy. There's a lot of people that were obviously very personally affected by that. And who probably felt that was just too extreme that it was too extreme. For the For the actual danger. Now, of course, since then we've seen like New York healthcare system, basically almost on its knees. And so the vast majority of us who had any doubt about that are now on the side that I guess it wasn't too extreme. I guess it wasn't necessary. But if you were loud and vocal early in the days, if you were someone who said, you guys are all idiots, this is too extreme, blah, blah, blah. Humans have a hard time walking away from that, once they take a position. They have a hard time flipping it. So I think some of these people are, are still kind of hanging on to that notion that no, it's not really that bad. And you are still all being too dramatic about this. But I don't know. I mean, as they do that they're feeding the monster. So So to me, it's almost that's why rational thought like trying to speak to these people, rationally. Sometimes it's hard because they'll they'll listen to what they want confirmation bias and they'll hold on to the things that fit. And that's where I think a good image can go a long way. A good little graphic or cartoon that kind of says, You This new this slimy guy in the head. You want to be up to you your goal,

 

Pouya LJ  24:06

maybe maybe knocks them out? Who knows? Yeah. Now I had a friend of mine actually heard about this conversation that I'm going to have with you and asked this question that I want to ask on his behalf? And is there such thing such a thing as types of anxiety? And if so, is it important in this scenario? Or is it just anxiety?

 

Prof. Joordens  24:22

Well, I mean, there's that basic anxiety response that I talked about, which is basically just the fight or flight reaction. There are people. So right now this is being triggered by a real threat. So So in fact, this is a very natural reaction. For us all to have. It's just not good when it's extended, as I talked about, in the pre COVID world, other you know, people who suffered from anxiety issues, there would be triggers and the triggers could be very different. For a lot of people, for example, what we can all relate this on the small scale, if you've ever had the network, there's there's what we call social anxiety. Right? You know, if You ever had to go and talk to a bunch of people you don't know and try to represent yourself? Well, in a networking kind of event, any of us find that stressful, we all find that anxiety, anxiety provoking, we can learn strategies, and we can figure out how to do it, we can see the value in doing it. You know, for some people that can happen when it's one other person they have to talk to, and not a roomful of strangers, so it can be any there, they can start to think. I'm going to say something stupid, I'm gonna make a fool of myself, this person isn't gonna like me. And so they can start worrying, you know, before they even open their mouth before they even have a conversation, they can start having these negative thoughts about consequences that can happen and that could make them literally fearful and invoke that so depending on who you are different things. It's the same basic response, but but it can sort of play out in very different contexts. Here's another funny example. I'll throw just to, you know, give the sense of the importance of thinking as we go. So UT Scarborough, we're, you know, our home. One of the things they do At the exam time, that I find kind of humorous, knowing how multicultural UT Scarborough is they have a room full of puppies. And there, the idea is, while you're all stressed out for exams, you know, this would be a great go hang out with the dogs and puppies, and this will make you feel better. And I think Well, yeah, for some students, that's the most terrifying idea in the world to go walk into a room full of dogs and puppies. So you know, it's not the dogs or puppies. It's the way you think about them and the thoughts they put. So if you think they're all cute, and that's putting you into one state, if you think they're potentially dangerous, and you know, and could bite you at any moment that's putting you into the other state. So it's really about the sort of thoughts that come along with these activities. And if those thoughts trigger, our amygdala, which is like our spider senses, the thing that centers senses potential danger, then we go into that fight or flee response. In an extreme case, by the way, let's mention this one other situation. There's They call the panic attack. And a panic attack is sort of a different kind of anxiety in the sense of, it's kind of that amygdala, that spider sense going off for no reason. So some people, it's just a little too sensitive. And so it's like your brain senses danger. And it's telling you, you're in danger. And you're looking around and you don't see the source of the danger. You're not sure why your your body is readying you to fight or flee. That can be double terrifying, because now you don't know where to run away from you don't know where the danger is. And so some people in those situations really it can, it can sort of cycle and they can get really, really, really scared. And, you know, imagine you're on a subway train, so to speak, and this starts happening. When those train doors open, somebody with a panic attack, which is both out of the train, both out of the train station go out in the road somewhere and we just be sort of running to get away from something. And that's a very sort of extreme version. Those those people feel like they're going to die. They literally have this sense that I'm about to die. And I don't know why. So that's that's kind of a special form. It's still the same basic mechanism. But when you can't find the danger, it's almost worse.

 

Pouya LJ  28:12

Now, have you do do you think it will relate to the situation? In a sense that okay, we know what it is, but I don't know. Like, you know, yeah, I can't see it. Yeah. Is that is that something that might happen to people? I've heard

 

Prof. Joordens  28:24

of all of this uncertainty, yes, that you can't see it. And by the way, there's a really weird almost getting back to your psychological impacts thing where we're starting to we're starting to have a disgust reaction towards other human beings,

 

Pouya LJ  28:38

which is yes.

 

Prof. Joordens  28:40

That's all you know, I'll be walking my dog. And if someone and the paths are only so wide, and and if somebody I just see somebody coming, just the fact that somebody is coming my way, makes me know. It's like, it's like suddenly humans are being, you know, this source of distrust and disgust and potentially dirty, maybe carrying the Maybe not. And I don't know how that will play out, like how we're how we're going to carry on with that afterwards. Yeah, it's a weird, fascinating world.

 

Pouya LJ  29:12

I heard different things about this actually. So like in terms of predictions, yeah. Not from experts, but random people and hypothesizing and some people were like, yeah, this is gonna be devastating. People are gonna hate people for a long time. And then other people are like, no, people are gonna be wanting to hug people. This is

 

Prof. Joordens  29:29

I'm on both sides of that too. I said to my wife last night that one of the things that I thought might be fun for some people to start doing is planning what i what i call Liberty day, you know, when the day when we're all free of all these restrictions, and you can imagine a big celebration of some sort, you know, think Raptors parade but but bigger. At some level. We're all free. But that is the interesting question. So if you had let's say, we took Toronto Island and we made it into this Party Central. Would people come with the idea of being shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of people, you know, even on a ferry or wherever, yeah. Are we mentally able to do that? Right? How long will it take for that? to come back? I've heard some people talk about the economy. And I wonder if it's similar where they say, you know, you're not just going to turn flip a switch and the economy is going to be back what it was that businesses will have died, there will be a period of time when it will probably come back, but that period of time is probably yours. I wonder, you know, if we defeat the virus, if it hasn't become a seasonal thing or something, if it suddenly we're gone, let's say tomorrow or next month, I think human interactions would similarly take a while to come back. I think if the threat was really gone, they would come back. I don't know but a hand shaking. You know, I don't certainly not hugging strangers like we used to at some point in time. But, but I think it will come back we'll be slowing. It would be funny to see if people are willing to just suddenly like do we feel like we need them. To be together, because that's a very psychologically normal feeling to, but we've had all that disgust on top of it, and you know, steering away from crowds, and it's becoming habit. Right. And once it becomes habit, then then it's pretty ingrained in our body and it takes a while to undo.

 

Pouya LJ  31:16

Yeah, for sure. No, it's definitely I initially, I didn't tend to do that. But I feel like if I don't do it, it seems like something's wrong with me because everybody's doing it, I guess. Anyways, so I think it's as good a time as any so for those people who don't know you have a course that is free on Coursera called mind control managing your mental health during COVID-19. Now, do you want to? Why don't you like just tell us a little bit about what's show? I mean, I guess people have a good idea what this course is about, but yeah, coming from you.

 

Prof. Joordens  31:44

So the mind control part. I always like these weird twists or words and I have some sort of Jedi references all through and you know, I have this image in my mind of this may be going back for for some people but, but Luke when he's finally been all trained, and then he's going to Jabba the Hutt. To rescue Han Solo, but it's this period where he's actually confident and competent. And he's learned all these these mental skills, these mind tricks, and then he can just waltz in and he's kind of the Jedi warrior. Well, you know that that's sort of in my mind is you we need to learn that sort of ability to control our own minds. And it really isn't that tough. So the big idea of the course is to empower people with knowledge to make them, you know, really understand what the anxiety response is. And then when and then to give them some tips about managing it tips that will make sense once they understand it. So I think, you know, I've told reporters, here's a tip, here's what happened, and they get those little tips and that's fine. But when you really kind of get it, oh, yeah, that's why that works. It's important because sometimes the tip isn't exactly perfect for you. But if you understand why it works, you can find one that is, oh, you know, he talked about singing karaoke, I wouldn't do that. But I would do this and it's the same idea. So the course is essentially It's called three weeks, although people are binge watching it, so whatever but but it's broken down to three weeks, each week has about maybe an hour of videos, three or four short videos. The first week is really about understanding where anxiety comes from, and why it's so important that we learn to control it. And I end that week by telling them about guided relaxation. So basically, you can't be both anxious and relaxed at the same time. It's sort of two different modes our body can be in. So if you want to stop being anxious, the best way to do it is to learn how to be relaxed. And if you can invoke some kind of summon relaxation, that will get rid of the anxiety and it's something you can learn to do but it is a skill. It is you know, mental mind tricks so to speak. And so you begin by I give them a little audio tape that just kind of what they just lay down and it walks them through the process and just to demystify it just so your listeners understand. It's just something Like we start at your feet, and we say clench your feet as hard as you can, like it's a fist, like clench that foot as hard as you can make that muscle hurt, and keep clenching. And make it really, really, really, really hurt. And we say that for a little while, and then at some point, that critical point, we say, Okay, now release that tension. And while you release that tension, feel what it feels like when the tension sort of bleeds away, when it's just sort of, you know, drains out of your body, like it's going down the drain, and then feel that relaxation that's left in your feet after that, and then we go up, and we do it with your calves and we do with your thighs, and we work all the way up through your body. And the idea is just it's kind of is my sci fi references again, it's like the teleporter and Star Trek where you want to go from one place to another. It's kind of like you can do that pretty well with your mind. If your mind knows that location you want to go to and has to be very familiar with that location. And if it is, it can transport you there. And so doing the relaxation you become familiar with. That's what relaxation feels like. That's what it feels like the drain stress. And at some point, it can become a Jedi mind trick where you can literally, you know, someone says you're a jerk, and you're about ready to come back at them with some nasty words, but you can just go No, let me pull them back. And let me be rational and and that is I call the psychology of being cool in my class that's that's learning how to kind of be in control of your motion. So that's a very sort of direct way. In the next week, though, I talk like we've been talking about a little bit more about how you can use distractions. So I talked about the news and why it sort of like we did like it's, it's not not necessarily good for our state, but it's something we kind of need now. But how you can now change the channels on your mind, through the activities you engage in, that certain things will be good distractions for you. Other things will actually be like aerobic activity. We've never understood this in psychology, or aerobic activity makes people more positive emotionally. You don't know why. We just know that's been shown over and over again. So if you can factor some of that into your day, That will help your mental health. So I give a bunch of strategies like that in the second part, we talked about the importance of social connections, things like that. And then finally, in the third week, we focus really on isolation, this new like living in isolation and what that does to a person. What we know from the psychological literature, what we don't know yet, as we've talked about, there's a lot we don't know about this situation. But then I then I give some advice about sort of configuring your life in isolation and how to kind of, you know, have the use in there. But as we've talked about a little budgeted bits and use, you know, follow them with some sort of palate cleanser, cognitive palate cleanser, have other ones throughout the day, have social interactions as part of what you do find ways to have control. One of the things I talked about, by the way in, in that third section is if you can accomplish something, if you can be spending this time, and maybe bettering yourself, so maybe taking courses online, if there are certain skills you always wished you had or whatnot, you can Get some certificates or you can just learn about something you always wanted to learn about. If you wake up in the morning with something to do, and you go bed at night, having accomplished something that makes you feel a lot better too, and it's less that you're just kind of hanging out. So I'm talking about things like that little things you can do that will literally answer your body's call of do something, and, and also kind of give you escapes from the anxiety at times, give you things that work against the anxiety. And the whole hope is that these become things that people just have in their back pocket. So I love the idea. I don't know if this is happening, but I love the idea of a family going through this. And literally, you know, involving kids at a very early age in terms of hey, here's how you can kind of control your mental states as well. And then maybe you know, six months from now that kids being bullied or something and and maybe they feel a little bit more in control of the situation and control of their emotions and maybe that allows them to, you know, come up with some strategies they might not have thought about. This is another thing. By the way, it's an interesting thing about this fighter Felice system. It's all about activating the body to respond. And it actually drains blood from the frontal lobes. It's kind of like your your body is saying, This isn't the time to be thinking it's a time to be doing something, just do something. Which makes sense if it's a bear in front of you, right? But, but otherwise, it's very hard. So if somebody was being bullied, for example, kids being bullied, usually they're going to have an emotional reaction. And it's very hard for them to think strategically about what what are the options? What's the best way to respond? Well, what could I do? Instead, they just let their emotions take control. But if they can push back that emotion, and get cool, and kind of think their way through, they may actually, you know, have a tool that they can use all their life. And so that's that silver lining I told you about before. I think we all have to learn these tricks now. But I think they will serve us well in our life going forward, too. So so it's an opportunity in a sense,

 

Pouya LJ  38:57

fair enough. Now why is this a perfect time? Well, Right time rather well, I think

 

Prof. Joordens  39:02

it's the right time. I think one of the great things but this is so strange these words that but as we all are all are feeling the same thing. You know, I literally tell people, if you're not anxious, you're not paying attention right now like, you know if you're clued in at all to what's going on. So it's no debate and it's not a mystical thing. So let me say it this way there, there are still a lot of pockets in the world where mental health is not spoken about where it's seen, as you know, if someone's having a struggle, that's something you want to hide, that's something that shameful, that's something they shouldn't be able to control themselves. So we'll say to somebody, like stop being anxious or stop being depressed, but we don't tell them how to do that. And we just don't naturally know how to do that. And so when we're talking about mental health, we're talking about going public even if you feel that way, like this person should be able to do something about their depression. Well, okay, but at least let them learn what they can do, but their depression, like don't just deny them the opportunity to actually figure out how to do that. And so I think we're in a case now where we're all feeling it and so it's not awesome them, it's us. And it's absolutely critical again, actually, for two reasons. One, the one I told you about that if the if the fight or flee system stays engaged too long, we become immunocompromised and that's not good for the virus. The other thing though, is and it worries me. Anxiety is better than depression, which sounds kind of odd, but anxiety is your body screaming at you do something. Depression is your body's screaming at you don't bother, it won't make a difference. Nothing does. It's not worth the effort. So depression is a real, you know, bad state that leads to suicide and leads to a lot of other very dangerous things. And if we don't learn to manage our anxiety, we may end up feel feeling at some point like nothing we're doing as much as helping, there's nothing we can do this is just going to ruin everything. And that's sort of the path that is something called learned helplessness, we can start to feel like, we can't control the situation. And that can lead to depression. And so that that worries me more than anxiety. It's an anxiety is uncomfortable, but it's an activating kind of state and so activate people to learn how to manage their mental states and to learn that it's not Voodoo. You know, I think Freud kind of did a disservice to psychology years ago, he's fascinating to read, but he you know, gives this impression of little demons in your head doing various kinds of weird stuff. And that's not modern psychology. modern psychology is much more about habits. And you can have habits of mind just like habits of body and and sometimes biases and the way you think about things the way you weigh things. And all of these things make sense when you hear them and their their approaches to, you know, sort of rebalancing the system and now As Voodoo, none of it should be seen as weakness. Any more than, you know, somebody jogging, we don't think someone's weak because they're jogging. We think they're actually taking the time to, you know, take care of their body. And you know, that's what I kind of hope people will start to see here that this mental health stuff, it's not about fixing a problem. It's about being fit, being ready for challenge, being able to take things on and not having them crush you. And so yeah, I think we may have the opportunity where enough people are motivated to learn about that, to actually kind of see what mental health is really about.

 

Pouya LJ  42:35

Alright, fair enough. Now, you mentioned the structure of the course being separated week by week. Yeah, actually, I did not. I started a course by I didn't finish it. One of the reasons was because I wanted to ask you this. Yeah. Is there do you recommend to go through that week by week or bingeing is okay, too?

 

Prof. Joordens  42:51

Yeah. I mean, obviously, I recommend you go through an order because I do build on some things later on. But, I mean, generally so let me Let me put on my geeky cognitive psychology hat. If you really want to remember it, there is what's what we call spaced learning leads to the best memory. So to learn little chunks and think about those and then wait to learn the next chunk, etc. So generally bingeing or cramming, that can get you the information for now, but it doesn't hang on is long. So generally speaking, anytime you're learning, it's better to distribute then to binge. However, you know, in this case, I've had a lot of people do the binge eating thing, and they say they've learned lots of great tips. And that's exactly what they wanted to get out of it. The good news about this, I mean, as an educator, the good news about this course is it's it's relevant. You know, students are taking this because they want to know these strategies, and they want to understand and so they're it's a very motivated, engaged student group. And in that case, all you really need to do is give them what they need to learn. And you know, if you wanted to binge it, it would probably be fine as well. Yeah, but the one the one thing I would mention, though, Then I want to highlight is that learning to relax, I highlight the suit, of course, but I can never highly enough it's like learning to play guitar, you know, you don't just pick it up and do it, you literally have to. So I recommend things like, like twice a day you do that guided relaxation thing, it takes 10 minutes. But you know, revisit that place called relaxation a couple times a day, and then keep doing this for a week or two weeks. You know, it takes a while before you can just mentally put yourself there. And so there are parts of the course like that, that if you if somebody just listens to it once and gets the concept. Well, that's great. They have the concept, they're not going to have the skill, skills only develop with practice. So everything people learn. It's less about how you learn and more about do you take what you learned and use it? Do you start using it in your life, and if you're using it in your life, it's going to stick and so that's what that would be my big recommendation to people is literally leave the thing saying, Oh, I know three ways I can do that and then do that.

 

Pouya LJ  44:57

Now that's fair. I think that anybody who's done Any kind of learning, especially with instruments or whatever it can, yeah, I can relate to that. Definitely. It's it makes a lot of sense. Now we're coming to the end of the, the episode here and I want to see if there's anything we missed that you want to talk about any final advice for the audience?

 

Prof. Joordens  45:16

Wow. I mean, there's there's so many angles on this I have reporters called me and asked me all sorts of questions and so many things. So there's, there's probably things we haven't discussed. But I think we got the, the main gist of and I think the things you know, I would really like the listeners to, to kind of grasp on is, is, this is a relatively quick experience. I can go through that. No, if you think of it in that Jedi way, you know, how long did he spend in a swamp with some great little green guy learning to do stuff. There's a whole lot less time that you'll spend and I really think it will be valuable. I really think there are tips in here that will make you feel better and that's why I'm trying so hard to kind of get it out there. So yeah, I just People listen to it, use what they listen to. And I really, really hope that it gives them a little bit of peace of mind a little bit more control over their mind. That's what it's all about.

 

Pouya LJ  46:09

Yeah. And I, from going back to the silver lining that you mentioned, I think, actually, and as I keep telling myself, I was like, I always thought to myself, there's so much books I want to read or whatever that never get a chance to. And now, this is a perfect chance, but like, I have a friend who was telling me that now that I have the chance, I'm just like, No, I was like, was that just an excuse?

 

Prof. Joordens  46:33

So I think Yeah, in a sense, it's a great opportunity for those of us who are staying healthy. I mean, obviously there are those who are impacted very badly, but it's an opportunity for other people other that are not so impacted. That too, yeah, pick up on those and these skills, specifically this that you mentioned, and that and that will make you feel a lot better in and of itself. Just Just because i mean it's it's a anti victim kind of, it's not like you're a victim of the situation. It's like you're someone that's like okay, this The situation how can I use this to my advantage and that's a very different place to be psychologically and a much more healthy place to be psychologically. So, you know, sometimes the way we frame things to ourselves makes a big difference. And I think that's a good example.

 

Pouya LJ  47:13

All right, thank you. Thank you for your time and agreeing to come come up here.

 

Prof. Joordens  47:16

Yeah, no problem. Thank you for the invite. We and yeah, this has been a lot of fun.

 

Pouya LJ  47:20

Yeah, remember? Yeah, me too. Me too. It was awesome. And hopefully, we're gonna hope that this thing goes away quickly, but I'm assuming it doesn't. I hope we can count on your expertise. Further.

 

Prof. Joordens  47:30

No worries.

 

Pouya LJ  47:32

Cheers. Thank you. Thank you for your hard work.