#167 - Immigration: In Conversation With Tugrul Guner

 
Tugrul's Social: 
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Tugrul_Guner
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tugrulguner/
 
Pouya's Social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pouyalj/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/pouyalj
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pouyalajevardi/
 
Episode Transcript...
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, immigrating, bureaucracy, courage, permanent residency, talent, immigration, canada, focus, country, entrepreneurship, build, challenges, life, permit, lots, emigrate, mentioned, apply, agree

SPEAKERS

Pouya LJ, Tugrul

 

Pouya LJ  00:00

Well hello, and welcome back yet again to yet another episode of The BTP podcast, ladies and gentlemen, I hope you're doing fabulous. We're back with total as per our previous episode. And we're going to talk about some cool stuff today, next few days and so forth and so on. It's going to be a few days of few episodes of lots of goodies around. So welcome back to rule out doing

 

Tugrul  00:44

good and good. Now in better,

 

Pouya LJ  00:47

whatever. That's great to hear. Not bad. It was a good day. Very productive. Lots of work to do, though. And now whether it was nice, so it for walk that was that was also good.

 

Tugrul  01:00

It's a bit dark, though. Yeah, it's getting dark again.

 

Pouya LJ  01:04

We're recording this at 9pm, which is good. Yeah. So so how are you doing? Overall, life is good. Life is treating you well.

 

Tugrul  01:13

Here are some work, work work with the Friday. So we are celebrating Happy Friday. Yay. But not today. Of course, unfortunately. Looking forward. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So then we look forward to Monday. Yes. And so to celebrate Happy Monday.

 

Pouya LJ  01:34

That's right. All right. So today, we're going to talk about a little bit about tooth topics, which kind of go I guess, hand in hand, at least in your story. And that is about initially about immigration as a whole. I mean, of course, you can share your personal story, but then immigration as a whole, what are the Will you will you advise it on others? Will you tell others to emigrate? Let's start there. So what are your thoughts on immigration? I then to break the ice a little bit to give the audience a little bit of a background. So the reason we're talking about immigration is because the way I personally looked at immigration is immigration is basically an uprooting of your life. So you have to, first of all have the courage to leave so many things behind in and I kind of look at it the Vikings way, if you will, I look at it as going after something different, something more something better, something different, I think the different borders the key. And for the upper. Hello, of course. Exactly, exactly. So that's how I look at immigration, I feel like it's because you're just seeking more opportunities, a different opportunity. The broad level, but what are your thoughts as a whole? And will you suggest it to others? Should they be in a position to be debating it?

 

Tugrul  03:07

Yeah, of course, I agree. I mean, it depends on where you're where you're immigrating to. Right. So so when you're living so many stuff behind the like, your parents, your I mean, whatever, like you, you're just leaving your friends. Not only like a friends and friends may maybe you're living some thing that you love, I mean, your books, I mean, your car, you never know. I mean, who knows? Right? So you're leaving them for to build a better feature. Right? Other than that, like, there is no point or, or, or you somebody or something like somehow you should be forced to do that. I'm not considering that this. That's a whole another story. So I mean, I don't I can't say anything about it. If you're forced to emigrate, this something is not an option for you, but is an option. If you're immigrating. The whole idea is to go somewhere, that you think that you're gonna You can live better, with a better life, better conditions, anything like for example, in our side, like, we don't have kids, but if you want to have kids, we want our kids to live in a place that they can be happy. They can live like they supposed to. Not like like I mean, not should they shouldn't work on the like heart conditions or they they should they like they can work and work and work but at the end if they can't get anything, and they're still like at the level of being poor and starving. So that was the point that mean so so many countries are on there, like people day and night are working. But at the end of the day, they can just live serving for not to die to survive. They're just surviving. I mean, this is unacceptable because I mean, we are living this life once and just surviving it, we are not Indonesia, we are just not just trying to build something for our kids, because we have the complexity we have that civilization, the the, like, we evolved, we, we have this complexity. And so I agree with you at that point. So we just with K, we came to Canada for the purpose to like to live a better life to, to, like, make our dreams come true. Like I have lots of dreams, and I want to make them real here. And I know that this country allows me to do so. As long as I have like, like a vote permit permanent residency or like, of course, the citizenship. Something. authorization of this. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But it is hard. It is hard. Not this this. Not everybody can do it. I mean, I know I am thinking in my parents shoes, like, they complain all the time. But they don't have that courage to leave everything and go somewhere else. Especially like, because of the language barrier, of course. Right, right. Yeah, but I'm not sure if my parents know how to speak English, for example, I'm still not sure they can leave everything behind and go somewhere to speak English. But this is the first step. This is the first thing the language barrier.

 

Pouya LJ  06:45

And this provides an excuse,

 

Tugrul  06:47

yes, oh, who is gonna like who's gonna learn at this age? I mean, people are, some people can graduate from university. Sure. 70 years old. But it depends from person to person, of course, is called a comfort zone, of course, your book for your parents, they happy. So anyway, so. But it's also full of challenges immigrating to somewhere like, okay, let's say that you already can speak a language of the country that you're immigrating. Let's keep that part. Let's say that we all know that language, for example, hear English. Then the next thing, the next challenge is the culture, of course. So you're coming from a culture, mostly a different culture, some common things, of course, but some different things, it can sometimes get hard to use it. Learn it, of course. I mean, you should find a way to learn it, you should find a way to have some friends. It is also a challenge to like to meet people, because I'm not talking about being young. I'm talking about like me that I emigrated here, like around 30 years old. So you know that right? Like, if you get older, it is becomes harder to find friends or like, have close friends. I mean, you you become picky.

 

Pouya LJ  08:17

And you don't you don't get those opportunities. As often. For example, if you come at the university level or high school level or even earlier, then you get to, you know, build those relationships in school and university and so forth. So, so that would be different. You're right, yeah. Okay.

 

Tugrul  08:33

Yeah, I mean, also, you need yours. They came as a postdoc here, like I had a, like, we have people in the group like PhDs, master's students, okay, at the school, you're called, like having, like a nice conversations with you, you're enjoying the talk, etc. But when the day is over, or everybody goes to home, and you don't go out, even on like weekends, I don't remember that I call or somebody called me to Let's go here. Like, just happened. Rarely. Yeah, I mean, I don't know maybe I didn't call or they didn't call because we all like we are picky or we already have some other friends. Or we are just lazy like laying down at home and let's let's go live. Watch this. Let's go watch that. Like, of course, going out something you don't prefer if you don't have a hobby outside. So that, like I, I was lucky. Of course, I came here with my wife. So I wasn't alone. And I know that I had friends who were like, alone. They were like, struggling with that they were like sometimes depressing. This is this is something challenging for people, especially who like rating by themselves. This can be challenging after like language barrier because having Frances bit hard. Um, next thing is of course, paperwork, some governmental issues, for example, right? Yeah. Oh, amazing. I mean, like, pull off, like being anxious about being anxious, like pulling nerves like I mean, what's going to happen full, you're just getting stressed. You're applying, for example, I came with a work permit. So it was like a one year or two years for at first. The first year was okay, because I have one year more, but when like, I'm given a deadline. Oh, yes. I mean, it's full of like anxiety, let's have we have to apply and you're waiting sometimes months? And you never know, maybe maybe you always have been back of your mind labor? What if they reject? What if I had to go back home after one year this even in one year, even imagined, like, yesterday, because you're trying to build something here, you're trying to do something you want to like, instead of thinking about this stuff, you want to focus on things about what you can do next? What is the next step? What should I do? Well, but this, you do this at some point, but then when you are approaching the deadlines, you just stopped doing that? And okay, what should I do? Like we have to apply this and we have to wait in response of my hope we can, we will get rejected. Yeah, that kind of stuff. This, this is something challenging also, like, mental mentally challenging. It can, it doesn't help you with that. So. So then you're you're looking for people who sponsored you to extend your contract, or look for another job that they can sponsor you to continue living here. Unfortunate ly my contract was extended by my employer. But it was one year, so that was full of challenges. And also, if you want to vote for work permit, there are two stories like one is open work permits. For example, one is closer permit, I had the close work permit, so I can't legally work for someone else. I wasn't, I wasn't able to vote for someone else. Of course. That's also like something problematic. I mean, I pro like the Pro. There are lots of reasons to do that, of course, but I mean, for a person who was having close work permit, it's hard to find a job like I mean, I was like, interested in going to industry at that time. So not all the companies are able to provide you the necessary paperwork to sponsor you. They are like, okay, so we are done. Not that big, we are still started up, or we are this and we can't Sorry, sorry. Yeah, whatever. This is how the system is. So you survived somehow, if you're if you want to, like stay or if you really want to, like, do something. And if you just focused, you know, will you find your way? Of course. Yeah, I like for example, I came to Ottawa, in my in my business for my second postdoc last year, and I got another contract to open but then I applied for permanent residency, and now I have a permanent residency, which, which is good now, I don't have issues. Like I don't have concerns about these kinds of permits, etc. But

 

Pouya LJ  13:51

yes, free of the bureaucracy.

 

Tugrul  13:55

Even like I when I was in my first post to get my chair like, at, like, two incubated with a project, which is accelerator called Suntec. I was good. I got accepted for the project. And I like me and my professor X professor was like, we were cofounders the ideal I always liked it. The name of the project microscope bought I mean, it was an amazing name, I still like it. It was a kind of idea that tries to automate microscopy with the AI I was so involved in the even though I didn't have any expertise like I didn't study I didn't have that much expense all personal hobby and but I was like, I was using microscope electron microscope so I was like, why not? I mean, not electron microscope me because they are expensive toys but why not for the like regular traditional Microsoft optical ones. Maybe I can design a system the If you can just put your samples and leave for the coffee and the whole system goes back for Drive left focus, then deal with everything by itself automatically collected data after like a couple of hours. So you have 1000s of images. Wow, amazing. You were just drinking your coffee. And you know, after one hour, you have 1000s of images. So yeah, I pitched the idea I took like, the train by them, like three months, it was like an intensive three months program from this intrapreneurship level, they were teaching you that

 

Pouya LJ  15:35

the what were they teaching, if they were teaching you only the entrepreneurship intrapreneur technical stuff to

 

Tugrul  15:42

networking, how to build network and how to prepare your minimum viable product MVP is what you should have to do how you can deal with the business plan, they mostly were using lean startup idea, like, don't try to get the perfect product, just start with something that you can show potential customers potential investors, that my idea is this how this is a demonstration, no limit, it can be even, you don't need to pay, like it can be cost free that you can just some build something or you can just create a software like or like a file, what I did was like, for example, I applied object detection with the for a video that I created from microscopy. I just applied object detection over it. And I showed that how the objects are like a tracked with the algorithm and how was it moving left, right? And how was it detecting the focus and the system if not focused on aligned? Axis, etc. Like that? It took me like, five hours, six hours. Yeah, but the problem was, then everything went well, like there were like lots of brilliant ideas around. So you will also be able to connect with them. You can also I don't know, like, if there's a good connection between you and someone else, you can just that guy or you can join him or her they can join you. So very dynamic environment. But the next step was you have to build your startup really officially have to start it to be able to go to the next step. But I couldn't do that because I had a work permit. And there was no way there was no way to start the company, you have to find someone who has a residency or citizenship, that needs to be at least I don't know, I just gonna, I don't remember exactly the number is 20 25% or something like that, to have that share in the company to be able to like a build it. So that was the time that I'm like, oh, okay, so I'm not gonna be able to do anything, unless I received my permanent residency. Just hold me back for some time, to be honest. These are all challenges. I mean, cultural, going immigrating to somewhere else, language barriers, then this kind of stuff. I mean,

 

Pouya LJ  18:21

the bureaucracy. Yeah. So I do want to go a little bit back first, and then come back to this. So you mentioned a while back, you mentioned courage. And I think that's a key key word in immigration. Because anybody who's like, had gone through immigration will tell you more or less, it's not an easy endeavor. Even so some people have it worse, some people have it better. Some people have a better experience, easier experience, some people have a more difficult experience. But ultimately, even the ones who have a relatively easy experience is generally difficult, because first of all, you have to move on from something, as you mentioned, you have to put some stuff behind. Either they're actually you know, literally stuff like inanimate objects or books and you know, whatever. Or, for example, job maybe, or there are people that you have to move, move away from and it doesn't mean that you don't keep contact with them. But it means that while you're not going to be seeing them every day, and then the second fold of that is that there are going to be lots of challenges. As you mentioned, there's many faults, cultural language barriers, cultural barriers, experiential barriers, sometimes it's not easy to find the right job in the same industry because you don't have the right experience in that country. Now, you may have experiences in other countries, but sometimes they don't translate all that well depending on the field of course. So it takes a lot of courage to leave what you have behind and as you mentioned, some people are forced to move and just go somewhere else because of wars or refugees, so maybe it's a different story there. But for those who choose to emigrate, then it does take courage because it means that you have to uproot your life. Whether it's good or bad, however good or bad it is. Nevertheless, you have to destruct your environment. And I think it takes courage. But with everything, if you have the ratio, if you wisely choose and you're courageous, odds are that you're going to get something out of it either a good result ultimately, or a good lesson, even if you fail. So I just wanted to point that out and see if there's anything you want to add on that courage point, to the whole story of immigration before we move on to bureaucracy.

 

Tugrul  20:47

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, if it's courage, in my case, I was planning to, like, move somewhere like Europe or United States or Canada. When even when I was like, in bachelor, that was kinda like my plan already. Because I really wanted to have a portunity to build something big. Yeah. I mean, you can do it in your own country. Yes, maybe. But the effort? Okay. They're not saying, Oh, that's it, the dynamics are very different. For example, my country. First of all, there are not much technology companies around like not, it's like, consider Silicon Valley. I mean, come on. Like, if you go to Silicon Valley, somehow, if you started to be become an entrepreneur in Silicon Valley, the network the people, like, what we're talking about here is environment, you need that you need that. I mean, for example, Canada. In Ottawa, I'm not in my mantra that there was an environment for sure. But wherever you are, doesn't matter. Like a country wise, you feel that there are opportunities here. If you have the idea, if you have the motivation, if you have this, like, Okay, I'm going to do it, if you have this motivation here, you know, that nothing can stop you. But this is not the case for all the countries. You have to either be really lucky or you have to be like, you know, people, really, you have to have this kind of network. Yeah, there are people of course, there succeed in these countries. Of course, I cannot say that. You can't you can. This is no way. No, I'm not saying of course you can. But I mean, having an idea and to become a giant is more possible here.

 

Pouya LJ  22:58

Yeah, there's definitely more opportunities more different. No, I agree. So I guess there is another element to the courage that you're basically mentioning, and that is, well, first of all, you need ambition, you need a reason to move. Now, in your case is ambition. Sometimes it's something else. But in your case, it seems to be the ambition, and I think it's the same in my case. And then you need also to be slightly adventurous, if not extremely adventurous, you need to be at least slightly adventurous to step into the unknown and be comfortable with that. So you take you take a courage, you take a reason to have to move to uproot your life. Otherwise, why would you? Well, it was you seem to be an idiot. And you need to be adventurous to a degree. Would you say that's, that's probably the base criteria for somebody to emigrate?

 

Tugrul  23:46

I mean, you're right, definitely encourages and being adventurous, I think they all combine the single point, which is, I think, not being scared of failing. If you if you're not scared of failing, I mean, if you're like, Okay, I can fail first time, second time, third time. Now, no worries, this life goes on. As long as I'm alive. And as long as I'm capable of doing stuff, my brain works or I can do something as long as I can do that. Nothing can stop you. You can fail. Of course, you're gonna fail you're gonna fail because you're trying something new. If you're not failing, you're it means that you're not learning not trying something new. It that means that you are following successful people because they pass this road and they like design. Now you cannot fail on this road. You're just following it that you're not learning. You're just like, clot and like I was called, like, you're just doing exactly the same. They did but in a way that when they became successful, you're not taking the part that they failed, but for sure you should be able to accept that you're going to fail. And you're not going to scale of that. If you're scared of failing, this is not the correct way you for your life that then you shouldn't maybe emigrate, I mean, you can still, you know, that can I

 

Pouya LJ  25:22

don't think I don't think you can really emigrate without failure, like it will be there, you're gonna make mistakes because you don't know them. As you mentioned, you have the culture shock, you have all these problems that you just don't know a lot of things. Honestly, even if in your perfect environment, it's impossible to not make mistakes and fail, but the odds will be multiplied 10 times 100 times 1000 times as much, because that's just the nature of things, you're stepping into the unknown. And when there's lots of uncertainty, the chances of making a mistake goes higher. But then that's okay. That should be okay. So that's where the, as you mentioned, the courage and adventures converge, essentially, and then you need the reason. Now, for some people, it's just ambition, or, you know, curiosity, or both. For some people, it's just, you know, what I want to give my children children a better life, potentially, or I want this or that. And for some people, unfortunately, it's not a choice. They're forced, as forced upon them. Okay, so let's just move on a little bit before we come to the close of this episode. So next episode, we'll talk about a little bit more about the entrepreneurship aspect of it. But I just wanted to address because we mentioned the bureaucracy. So as with all governments, when you deal with them, they tend to be a bit bureaucratic. And that obviously creates a lot of hurdles. Now, one of the advantages of I guess, specifically United States, and I guess in recent years, Canada has been that actually to try to remove lots of these bureaucracy to a high degree or reduce them, at least, when it comes to talent when it comes to entrepreneurs, when it comes to investors. So that you can tap into a pool of talent, and capital all over the world, not only within your own confined borders. And I guess that's one of the success stories of America that actually, United States specifically, I mean, America is a continent, the United States of America has been that the one of the stories has been the fact that they were able to attract the best of the best talents all around the world. And they've done that by trying to, specifically the past, but maybe less so presently, but then cannabis taking place a little bit. They have been trying to do that by reducing those beers, because they basically gave people a chance to, you know, focus on your own thing. Focus on things that you're actually good at. And of course, there's going to be some bureaucracy, that's just impossible, as you deal with governments that want to make sure that who you are, that their borders are made safe, that you're not misrepresenting yourself in one way or another. So there is going to be a little bit of that. And governments being the huge entities that they are not really good at producing these bureaucracies actually add to it. That's just the nature of things. So what do you think can be done in the case of entrepreneurial entrepreneurship or generally speaking, talent acquisition, from the standpoint of a country, let's say, like Canada, or any country, for that matter, that wants to accept immigrants and wants to accept talents? Or, you know, specific kinds of work workforce in different industries doesn't matter? What can be done in your personal experience? Now, you had the experience of Canada and had a very specific experience. Of course, I had a slightly different experience, but similar in terms of being theocratic. So what are the Do you have any thoughts? Have you thought about it? What can be done to or Not? Not? Specifically? I'm not talking about specific things, but directionally is there general ideas that you think can help with reducing this tension and allowing talent to just flourish?

 

Tugrul  29:17

Yeah, I mean, it kinda is doing actually good when I was like, like in this intrapreneurship program, the last day they mentioned me this intrapreneurship immigration program, I didn't know that before like it you had to apply it. Like, we just I was in Montreal. So the problem was, I couldn't speak French so I couldn't apply for the permanent residency, but I didn't know you can apply for intrapreneurship program even within within Montreal in Quebec. So if I knew it before, but the thing is, like you have three months, but usually it like takes one one and a half year. So in any As I won't be able to, like I couldn't probably get my permanent residency, even that case to build my startup. But this is tricky. To be honest. There are lots of talents around the world, of course, the country's companies, are they fighting to get this talent? But while you're like if you make things so easy for people to emigrate the country with talent, of course, is something good. But you have to care about the society also, like who you are like, like a given residency, these guys are, okay talented. But who are they? I mean, maybe they are not. Some of them. They are not like, they can be rude. They can make things harder for other people. You never know. I mean, just because they are mine doesn't mean that they are just struggling with other people.

 

Pouya LJ  31:04

Yeah. In my experience, criminals are very talented, especially the successful ones, but you don't Oh, yeah. Okay, so yeah, that's a good example. Yeah. You want to make sure that you're letting in the right kind of people and not international criminals, for example. Oh, yeah. Maybe very talented. But nevertheless, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I know. It's a level. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Tugrul  31:27

I mean, the software level, maybe hackers, they mean they are just stealing people's information, credit nerds, etc. They are so extremely talented. But then you're saying, okay, so you're talented. Come to my country. Still people here

 

Pouya LJ  31:40

like, no, it is. It is a tricky business. I understand that. Yeah, yeah. I agree with you. I think overall, Canada is not the worst for by any stretch of the imagination is doing pretty. Okay. Pretty good overall. Still, I think there are some aspects of bureaucracy that can be trimmed. If not, yeah, they're doing pretty good. But yeah. So

 

Tugrul  32:02

leaving times alone, for example, can be reduced this processing times? That can be much better. Of course,

 

Pouya LJ  32:09

people have options. Yes. You don't have to stress about it. If, for example, you get a rejection of some sort, and you have the time to respond to it in a timely manner. Yeah, I agree. I think I think that would be probably the best place to start to actually reduce this processing times. All right, we'll continue this discussion, of course, specifically, more on the entrepreneurship side. But before we close, though, is there anything you want to mention that we missed? Or you wanted to talk about that? We haven't?

 

Tugrul  32:43

No, not so far. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's tricky. Yeah, I agree. This everything is tricky. This is tricky for government. This is tricky for immigrant. I mean, this is not easy for anybody. Everybody is just trying to make things better. Immigrants, they are trying to make their lives better, or they're, like me, them and they have some they have ambition, and they also want to provide a better life for their kids for like, their belongings. And so you can do this here. And you just You need courage. So as long as you have courage, okay, that you can fail. I mean, there are things that are tricky, of course, you can hold you back for some time, you can just get mad, but you have to focus on the feature, not the problems, you always have to you should always have to focus on the solution, not the problem. Problem is there focusing on the problem is not going to solve the problem by itself. Focusing on the solution is going to help you to solve that problem. Most of the people or they miss this, but they just focus on the problem. Okay, I have this problem mine. I hate this. I hate that. Yeah, I am complaining also like, everybody complains because it's a good way of releasing energy, they have tension. But at the end of the day, the seriously you take this focusing on the solution part more serious. Complaining is something else. But focusing on problem is another thing, not that you shouldn't focus on that so you don't need to scared of immigrating. Just think about what you can achieve afterwards. But if Okay, let's say that if I immigrate to Canada, I want to immigrate to Canada. I want to move there. And I believe there are these are going to be problem this is going to be problem. Okay? But think about what you can do here. You can start a business you can find a good job. You can do something in quantum computation. You can do something good in AI. You can Go to a very high ranking university, you can study neuroscience, I mean, of course, there are like lots of opportunities, you have to focus on that you have to focus on what you're going to do next. Yeah, but meanwhile, governments are also struggling have to make have to pick talent and correct people, for the society to make the society better, of course. Yeah, because everybody wants to have a society that everybody gets along well, everybody shows respect to each other, like, everybody's happy, they can focus only on the things they they love, like, for example, you ai me a quantum computation, to, to move this technology move the science forward, let's let's move everything in a better way, like, like, let's focus on how we can make this work better in terms of how we can live better how we can make the technology better science and how we can make more discoveries, how we can go to other galaxies or the planets, how we can colonize them how we can mine the streets, we should focus on this because at the end of the day, we were just polluting our, like our home with mining, we need those chemicals, of course, because of many things. But if we focus all together, on the future, and on the things that we can achieve all together, like on the space, even like in the science, tech and anything art, I mean, everything just focus on improving things. It is the way how it evolves. I mean, it's the way how we should go instead of like fighting each other.

 

Pouya LJ  36:54

Yeah, has always been agreed. That makes a lot of sense.

 

Tugrul  36:57

No, I can't at this point. But

 

Pouya LJ  37:00

that's good. Actually, this is this is something we're going to continue talking about, the more the you know, the entrepreneurship aspect, the you know, the the innovation and improvements aspect. For sure it will start next episode, we'll continue that this conversation basically. From will we'll move on a little bit from immigration side, but we'll maneuver more on entrepreneurship and the Lean Startup philosophy that you were telling me about so we'll be could delve into that a little bit. All right. So I'm not going to say goodbye because we already said that we're going to have that next episode very soon. About Yeah, about the entrepreneurship aspect. But I do want to say goodbye to our audience. And I as always, I'm really glad that you guys tune in, listen to us. I hope you enjoyed it. And I hope you will join in next month. Thank you all for joining and until next episode.

 

Tugrul  38:01

Yep. Thank you very much. See you everybody. Take care.