The Other Side of the Church with Lathan Craft

How do you maintain your faith and hope in the church when you have been hurt by it in the past? Is there a difference between following the teachings of Jesus and feeling obliged by the church community? Are you willing to fully love yourself and those around you? In this podcast episode, Billy and […]

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How do you maintain your faith and hope in the church when you have been hurt by it in the past? Is there a difference between following the teachings of Jesus and feeling obliged by the church community? Are you willing to fully love yourself and those around you?

In this podcast episode, Billy and Brandy Eldridge speak about the other side of the church with Lathan Craft.

Meet Lathan Craft

Lathan Craft is the author of the Amazon best-seller The Leper in the Church, host of The Other Side Of The Church Podcast, and founder of Heartbeat from Hope, a non-profit organization giving individualized hope to the most hopeless of places. Lathan is also the owner of Made for Purpose, a coaching and consulting company founded to help clients find their dream job.

Lathan has a heart for motivational speaking, ministry, and reaching others through transparent and hope-filled discussion.

Visit The Other Side Of The Church and connect them on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

 

In This Podcast
Summary

Maintaining hope in the church
Can you follow Jesus and not the church?
If you see or sense an issue in the church, report it

Maintaining hope in the church

How do you keep hope? You read the gospels. I think Jesus is literally the complete antonym of the American church in so many different ways, and if we really are preaching from our church to follow Jesus, I really hope people follow Jesus, and not just the construct we make church out to be. (Lathan Craft)

The church as an organization and the teachings of Jesus are not synonymous. You can follow Jesus and be faithful to God without being affiliated with a church or church as a construct.

Sometimes people try to convince you that to withdraw from the church community is to turn your back on Jesus, but that is not true.

Jesus is a part of you and your journey and is not something that the church should weaponize to keep you within the community.

If we keep saying, “follow Jesus”, I really hope Jesus changes our hearts and says, “okay, if you want to follow me then follow me … don’t follow what you think I am … the American flag or organized religion, follow me” … if we really want hope, we follow in his footsteps and we see how he loved people and what he did. (Lathan Craft)

Can you follow Jesus and not the church?

To follow Jesus means to champion and support those whom society says are not good enough, and to love those that the church might even say are not good enough.

Jesus loved people and their stories and welcomed them into His space.

You can follow Jesus by embodying his teachings in your life instead of keeping to what the church says you should or should not do.

This idea and this reality of loving those who everyone else, in our culture, in Texas, in America, says, “they don’t fit what our church is or what our society is, therefore, we have nothing to do with them”, actually Jesus has everything to do with them. (Lathan Craft)

Jesus teaches people to love one another for who they are and not for who they want them to be.

If you see or sense an issue in the church, report it

If you become aware of a potential issue in your local church community, whether it is abuse, stealing, intentional hurt, or otherwise, do not hesitate to report it.

Sometimes people feel afraid to “go against” their church by commenting or reporting something suspicious, but that is not the case.

You are doing the right thing by bringing attention to an issue. Do not allow problems or abuse to go on if you sense that there may be an issue at hand.

Children in abuse … will do whatever they possibly can to not say outright, “I’m being abused” and not show scars, but draw attention to themselves in a way that is different so that you might notice what is going on. (Lathan Craft)

It is the responsibility of adults to make sure that the people who need protection are taken care of.

The people in the congregation are the ones building the walls and [are] saying, “sweep that under the rug, let’s not talk about it because we want to look like the perfect church”, [but] to me the perfect church is the one that isn’t perfect. (Brandy Eldridge)

Useful links:

BOOK | Lathan Craft – The Leper in the Church: Stories from the Unseen
Visit The Other Side Of The Church and connect them on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
Joshua Harris on Bringing His Trophies and His Scars into His Work
Discover more at The Beta Male Revolution Website

Meet Billy Eldridge

Meet Billy, the resident beta male. For Billy, this is a place to hang out with other beta males and the people who love them. We’re redefining what beta males look like in the world. I have learned to embrace my best beta self, and I can help you to do the same. As a therapist, I understand the need to belong. You belong here. Join the REVOLUTION.

 

Meet Brandy Eldridge

Hello, Beta friends. I am an alpha personality who is embracing the beta way of life. I feel alive when connected with people, whether that is listening to their stories or learning about their passions. Forget small talk, let’s go deep together. Come to the table and let’s have some life-changing conversations.

 

Thanks for listening!

Did you enjoy this podcast? Feel free to leave a comment below or share this podcast on social media! You can also leave a review of the Beta Male Revolution Podcast on iTunes and subscribe!

Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you thrive, imperfectly. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom Podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Podcast Transcription

[BILLY ELDRIDGE]

Hello, and welcome to Beta Male Revolution podcast, a podcast that started out by seeing the world through a different lens of masculinity, and now has become a place for people to deconstruct their shit in the second half of life. I’m Billy Eldridge.

[BRANDY ELDRIDGE]

I’m Brandy Eldridge and as a married couple, we’ve had a ton of disagreements, tried to be honest about challenges and setbacks and hopes of becoming better versions of ourselves. So grab a cup of coffee, come hang out, let’s chat a little bit like we’ve known each other for 20 years.

[BILLY]

That’s what I’m talking about. Let’s get jaggy with it.

[BRANDY]

No?

[BILLY]

What?

[BRANDY]

Hey, Beta Male Revolution. It’s Billy and I’m here with Brandy today and Lathan Craft. Hey Lathan.

[LATHAN CRAFT]

Hey, how you all doing?

[BILLY]

Doing great.

[LATHAN]

Good, good.

[BRANDY]

Well, I have to give the back story about Lathan. We had him scheduled some time ago and this was a first for us. Our podcast guest, I don’t think, you didn’t even show, it was before that. So you weren’t late for the podcast, which was very, very mannerly and nice of you.

[BILLY]

But we got an email —

[BRANDY]

We got an email that said Lathan is in the emergency room. He’s not going to make it this morning. We’re like, oh, well, keep us posted on him. That’s very nice of you. He wasn’t even late to the podcast. Lathan why don’t you take the story from there?

[LATHAN]

Yes, so I was playing softball at a, we were scheduled for, I believe it was a Friday or a Thursday or something like that. No, it was a Tuesday, which comes for a Tuesday or Wednesday, whatever day it was, brain surgery. I hit my head playing softball and I found out through the emergency room visit that I was born with the brain defect. So three brain surgeries later, two and a half months in the hospital here I am. So it was wild. I was in the ICU for my brain for about three weeks. The doctor at one point told my wife to plan for a funeral. So it’s crazy just talking to you guys now that I was in the ER, like literally, that was my one concern. At the mercy room I was like, “I have a podcast recording today.” Here I am and If you could see me, I have half of my head shaved. I got four scars on my head. I got my head shaved a lot yesterday, so that’s a good thing. But it has just been a wild couple months and my wife last night just texted me because she has bronchitis. So I can’t be near her because my immune system’s down. She texted me and she said, “This summer we’ll go down in the books for sure.”

[BRANDY]

Oh my gosh.

[BILLY]

That is nuts. So we were about to talk to you, you have this accident that finds out you’ve got this other issue. Since we last got that email, which doesn’t seem like too long ago, like two and a half months, you’ve had three brain surgeries. You’re sitting there with half your head shaved. Well, does that change your life perspective at all?

[LATHAN]

Just a little bit. It was just, I think that, and I’ve talked about this in my podcast a couple times, when you are really at the end and really in the valley, the intimacy with Jesus is crazy. So I think that’s what I’m craving and still in right now, is this intimacy that I have with Jesus because of how he was faithful and brought me back from literally the pits and like flat lining and all these things. But I think that’s my new perspective is man, I just want people to know Jesus. I want that to be my life and I have such a fire now. Like if brain surgeon didn’t wake me up, I don’t know what would brain surgeon woke me up for sure. I have such a fire now to just be productive, which makes my wife happy, but also just to do things that I would normally be super procrastinating on or pathetic about, have a really renewed fire.

[BILLY]

Man, well, before the accident, we were going to have a podcast. Where were we going to talk about? Who are you in the world? We just found out you’re in Tyler, Texas. You’re just right down the road from us. We could have met halfway in a Starbucks, but anyway —

[BRANDY]

Not really

[BILLY]

Not a Starbucks. Well, there’s not a Starbucks between Texarkana and Tyler probably.

[BRANDY]

Because of Covid, that’d be bad for us and for him.

[BILLY]

Yes, you probably,

[BRANDY]

We have, just so you know, everyone, our one listener and Lathan, our youngest is COVID positive. She is underneath the desk playing Minecraft, listening to us. So if you hear her cough or eat her veggie straws that’s little Poppy Kate.

[BILLY]

We had one of those, it wasn’t quite as intense as yours, but about three in the morning she came downstairs and she was coughing. She had sounded a little raspy earlier and her breathing was just rapid and shallow and couldn’t speak. We made a B-line for the ER and just that moment of powerlessness as a parent where I don’t have any control over the situation and they put the pulse sock machine on her and I guess it was crooked on her finger so her pulse sock registered way low. I thought, oh my gosh, we’re about to head up to the second floor. This is about to get really bad. I guess they adjusted it. It was okay, they got her on a breathing treatment, some steroids and were able to stabilize her and she was able to come home. I just I couldn’t help but think about all the people. You had that experience when you go into the lobby, but you end up on a higher floor and you don’t get to leave. So many people in the world right now are experiencing that with their families and you not because of COVID, but you had to go through that.

[LATHAN]

Yes, it’s insane the amount of people that have to die alone. I think that’s been, what’s been eye-opening to me is when I was in the hospital, obviously Delta came back and so, or came, and so there were renewed restrictions of visitors. So for COVID patients entirely right now, no visitors. I just can’t imagine being COVID positive being in a room, especially a kid. Like I can’t imagine my kid, let alone anyone’s kid being in that situation alone in a hospital room and then maybe never going back out in that hospital room.

[BILLY]

Well, I had a situation with a guy I talked to the other day and been checking up on him. He got a diagnosis of a pretty aggressive brain tumor and he was going to MD Anderson and unnerving. But he said, his parents like pull into the parking lot and he has to get out of the car and walk in to his MRIs and his doctor’s appointments and his procedures all alone. He said, “I was feeling real bad for myself, but then I saw this suburban pull up right to the front door and they told us we couldn’t pull up to the front door. I was really mad. I was like, who’s getting to pull up to the front door?” They said, some parents got their child out and put them in a wheelchair. A nurse came out and got them and wheeled them in. He said, “I didn’t feel so bad about my story at that moment then.”

[BRANDY]

Nope, I’m done. We’re not talking about this.

[BILLY]

The feelings, but a wave of gratitude just came over. This is a tough time for everybody. We’re in some unique situations that we don’t think about the implications outside of COVID if you’re dealing with anything else. You’re not there with your family in the room, holding your hand just because of the restrictions. So I always want to be mindful of that, but oh my gosh, we could go so many places with this, but let’s just briefly, like how was going there? What do you do in the world and what were we going to talk about before you had this major life event?

[LATHAN]

So I have a podcast called The Other Side Of The Church podcast. I used to be in ministry, full-time ministry. Then God really hit me. I was actually in San Francisco, California. I showed up, Brandy and I really realized that being in my position in ministry did not allow me to meet the people that God had called me to meet. Did not allow me to have conversations that I really felt compelled to have. So I stepped out of full-time ministry. COVID hit, I moved from California to Texas. Finances obviously was the main force there and now my whole rest of my life, I really want to devote to just talking about real issues, both inside and outside the church and not in a, “Hey let’s just talk about the church.”

But man, I really have hope. I really have hope for what Jesus really desires for the church to be. I really have hope for people who have been outcasts. I mean, we’re in the Bible belt. Like I was watching the news Saturday night and they were like, before you go to church on Sunday, so it’s just idea of like this fog of everybody and understood everybody goes to church. But what about those who don’t and what about those who have been hurt? Just have this really, I’ve been in the hospital for a long time, so I’m going to say bed sore, this bed sore for just the church. Nobody really acknowledges that. That’s my passion talking about those. I’m talking to those who may be that one sheep of the hundred that has been hurt and a desire to walk away and not hurt the rest of the flock.

[BILLY]

Wow. Well, you’re talking to the right people, Lathan, because we are a couple of those crazy kids who grew up in youth group and in church and have become a little disillusioned with the system trying not to be bitter and angry but just a little sad at the directions. Some of the places we grew up in took a turn. I’m a counselor in town and I’ve taken some personal heat because of just certain stances I’m not willing to take. I’ve gotten taken off referral list from churches because I refuse to tell people they’re an abomination and what they’re doing is desecrating their life and their body before God. One is not my place as a therapist to do that. Two I wouldn’t. That’s not helping anything. It’s hurting. How do you, well, for us, let’s just, I’m going to ask you for us, how do you keep hope in the church? How do you just not say I’m going to go do something different to create community in another way outside of organized religion and get rid of all the junk, because I don’t think it’s repairable?

[LATHAN]

That’s such, I don’t know why I’m getting emotional right now. Y’all are awesome. How do you keep hope? You read the gospels? I think Jesus is literally the complete antinum of the American church in so many different ways. If we really are preaching from our church, follow Jesus, I really hope people follow Jesus and not just the construct we’ve made church out to be. Because there’s so many different times and so many different places. I mean, just last night, and sometimes social media is people’s church, like all they get is the trash of pastors.

Last night I was reading an article, a pastor was sexually exploiting children, 35 years in prison. That’s some, people’s just, that’s their only exposure of church and understandably. So they want nothing to do with it. But if we keep saying follow Jesus, I really hope Jesus changes our hearts and says, okay, you want to follow me? Then follow me. Don’t follow what you think I am with the American flag and there’s this idea of, or organized religion, follow me, like do what I did. I think if we really want hope, we see his antics and we follow in its footsteps and we see how he loved people and what he did and how he conversated with people and all those things.

[BRANDY]

So all that being said, what does that mean when you say follow Jesus? Because I do think you said something very interesting. It’s if we follow Jesus, what do his teachings tell us? Like, if we, I’ve heard somebody said we’ve been praying for revival, our whole lives. I grew up in a church that we did that, and I’m looking at this and saying, well, what if this is the revival? What if this is people saying we’re tired of religion? We want the red letters. What does that mean?

[LATHAN]

When I think about following Jesus, I think specifically of the sermon on the Mount when Jesus laid down the law and said, this is what the game of heaven looks like; bust to the poor, bust of the meek, bust or all those things. Following Jesus means championing those who society says aren’t good enough. Following Jesus means loving those who the church might even say aren’t good enough. All of the outcasts, all of the people who have been in Jesus times, literally physically pushed to the outskirt to the city and maybe not in our modern day translations or modern day realities, but loving those people who the church and society says, eh, they don’t fit our narrative.

I think valuing people’s stories, you just really love stories. Like He loved people’s narratives and what they brought to the table, both in a physical and in an emotional sense. Like I think the woman at the well He told her her story, but He was fascinated by who she was. She had so much going on. A lot of churches will say she was a very promiscuous and sinful woman. Sure, if that’s what you want to label her as, if that makes you feel better, fine. Jesus didn’t label her as that. He just said, “Hey, here’s your story. Here’s your life. I’m Jesus.” Nobody knows yet, but I’m the answer to your problems. It’s just this idea and this reality of loving those who everyone else in our culture in Texas and America says they don’t fit. Like they don’t fit what our church is or they don’t fit what society is. Therefore have nothing to do with them. Actually Jesus says, have everything to do with them.

[BILLY]

Well, that’s absolutely some of the struggles that we’ve run into, what you’re talking about. That is beautiful and that is good and something I long for, but so many times it just feels like we’re met with a complete opposite. It’s like we have this, in our churches that we’ve been involved with. Like, if you struggle with certain things that the church thinks is a problem, different things have timelines by which you should get that together, just get your shit together before, we love you as you are, but you can’t stay as you are. If you’re struggling with alcoholism, we’re going to give that one if you bounce in and out over a year, year and a half, but if you keep showing up relapsing, then we’re going to get tired of it.

Now, if you struggle with sexuality or something or identity thing, or maybe people that don’t even, that is not a problem for them. I said, at one point, I’m not going to love people for who I think they ought to be. I’m going to love people for who they are. That’s the side of the line I choose, I’m going to be on. When I get up there, it was all wrong and God was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you just love people a little too much. You should have backed off that, just accepting thing you did whatever. We’ll have a talk then. But it’s like, okay, on some of these things, it’s like, if you don’t correct that behavior, we’re going to shower you with love. We’re going to think you’re awesome. But if you stay in that place that we don’t agree with, and it’s usually around issues of sexuality, I see that are the most egregious, then you aren’t a part of our group anymore. You can’t hang out with us.

[BRANDY]

It’s grace and truth, like be careful of too much grace in the church. It’s our job to speak truth to people. And that’s what, you know be careful. That’s what we hear, be careful of those grace churches, the people that say everything’s okay, because there’s no limit to it. Next thing they’re going to be having sex with kids if you just give to everything they want to do. It’s our job as Christians to speak truth into these people’s lives and truth is love.

[BILLY]

Truth in love.

[BRANDY]

Truth is love. Truth in love and truth is love.

[LATHAN]

That’s a softball for you.

[BRANDY]

No pun intended.

[LATHAN]

Pun don’t hurt. I that conversation because actually my first and only book I’ve written so far, called a Leper in the Church, which deals with people who have mental illness or struggles in the church and have been treated like the leper in the old Testament of this like, they’re not actually saying it, but people look at them and think they’re screaming unclean; this idea of they’re not good enough, or they have too much, as you beautifully said, Billy, shit, to come into this congregation. With me coming from a full-time ministry perspective, I’ve been in the freaking staff meetings about these people. I’ve also seen the pastor, the leadership, like the lead pastor talk about how he’s been getting the offerings for the past four weeks, if we don’t get any money. So there’s this idea of wait a second, you’re more concerned about the alcoholic or the sexually immoral, but you’re over here getting a hundred thousand dollars and nobody’s looking? Let’s talk about that for a second, because that seems like a sin as well.

So it’s really, you read it in the gospels, the log and spec, it’s really easy to call out somebody else’s spec while ignoring your log. There’s a ministry which was really prominent here in Texas called Celebrate Recovery, which is for those who have battled addiction. Part of my, one chapter in my book is about this man who relapsed three times and was basically, he experienced it. The first time he relapsed, oh man, it’s totally okay. You’ll get back. Second time, bro, what’s going on? Third time, silence. So it was this idea of how many times can I fail? And in the kingdom of heaven as many times as you need to, as long as you know and you’ve experienced radical grace and truth of the loving God.

One of my passions is Paul never became a Pharisee. Like the Pharisees of the biblical times would be very particular about what sin is, what sin isn’t, what you can do, what you can’t do. And Paul, who literally was saved from murdering Christians and became Paul never became that rule stickler of here’s what you can, here’s what you can do. I’m about you all but I have a past. I’ve been saved by grace and who the hell am I to tell somebody that they can’t struggle, their struggle has to have a limit or a number or a quota? That’s so antithetical to the gospel, is repulsive.

[BILLY]

Well, and I even take it a step further, who am I to deem it a struggle if, and then we get into a lot of stuff. But I don’t want to go naming people’s struggles for them. Or like you said, I have enough of my own issues. You mentioned Celebrate Recovery. I’m glad that the church is talking about addiction and issues like that. I’m glad they’ve added a mental health wing to it. I think that came on board after Rick Warren’s son lost his life to depression and awareness usually comes about by pain. So I’m glad they’re talking about it, but where I found freedom for me and struggling with alcoholism was in 12 Step programs outside of the church where I never heard, I never quit here and keep coming back. Just keep coming back. You want to be God’s kids, He’s crazy about you, keep coming back.

I remember they have these little silver chips you pick up every time you screw up. I’d probably got my 40th one and it just seemed like I was never going to get this thing of sobriety or how to put the bottle down or the pills down. An old guy met me on the front porch after the meeting. He had been sober like 40 years and he pulls a chip out of his pocket and it’s a silver chip. He said, “This is the one I keep on me. This is the only one that matters. One day at a time, sun up till sundown kid. If you got today, you got all you need. And just shame and all this stuff of it wasn’t about what happened yesterday. It wasn’t about what might happen tomorrow, but today I’m doing all right.” To me, that was a picture of grace to me, that was a picture of love.

So I had to find some of those, I had to get outside of the church to find Jesus, to find like a living, breathing example of the gospel. I know that’s not true for every church. There’s some very vibrant, great things going on out in the world, but we’re cornered over here. There’s probably some in our town, but just our experience and the people that we’ve run into, it’s a little more, it gets real exclusive. There’s the moral high ground. It is, we have the truth. You don’t know what you’re talking about. If you just came over to our side, your life would be okay. That’s the struggle.

[BRANDY]

I think, I too, it’s very difficult now to understand the word of God, because when you’re a kid, it’s just very simple. It’s just very simple. Then the older we get and the more entrenched in religion we get, the more we have to have an interpreter of faith. If we just make it simple and just go back to the simplicity of it. I think that’s what Jesus did. When he was asked what’s the greatest commandment of all, which I believe he was set up to be trapped in that question, He says, love the Lord God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself. That’s it, those two.

If we would just go back to that, it takes care of the interpretation, but we have to go into different churches. It’s like, well, you really need to understand the theology. You need to understand it’s a four point sermon to get you to this and this is how many points are you of Calvinism? Are you a post revelation? Are you pre, who knows. It’s like the older I get, the more I need somebody with a theology background and degree to explain to me what it means to love your neighbor. I’m like, I can do that. I mean, I don’t care if I offend people anymore. I’m not a follower of Paul either. I don’t agree with everything Paul wrote. There’s this point where it’s like —

[BILLY]

Easy, easy.

[BRANDY]

I know, I know, but there’s this point of like, are we Paul worshipers or are we worshipers? Like it’s becoming more and more difficult and I feel like the older I get to step into a church, the more intelligent I have to be to have people explain to me their interpretation. And if I don’t agree with their interpretation from the person on the pulpit, then I have some learning to do in this church because I’m just not there. I just don’t want to have to do that because the older I get the simpler I think it is.

[LATHAN]

Before brain surgery, which feels like ages ago, I really, I was driving to my home church, which my wife and I have found a church right now that is probably temporary, but it’s home for now. My mom, if there was a biblical person for my mom, it was the woman at the well before she met Jesus. As I was driving into this driveway for the church, God told me, and Brandy, this goes with you, I want you to view church through the lens of your mom. Like if it was the first time she’d ever encountered a church, view the lens through that. There are so many things the church does like insider language and so many like lofty terms that we make and so many things that we do. Billy I’m with you, there are so many great churches, but that shouldn’t be an excuse.

You know what I mean? Like that shouldn’t be a justification for why some churches aren’t good. So viewing church through the lens of my mom has radically shifted how so many first time guests or people who have just done with church view church. It’s just like, there are so many people going to go to heaven with their degrees. I don’t think Jesus gives a crap about degrees. I don’t think He has a crap about theology. Like I think He gives a crap about how we did the two commandments. Like I think that’s greatest commandment part A, part B, but it’s, two. Love the Lord your God, which is literally a hundred percent of yourself and love your neighbor. I really, America has done really good at trying to contextualize neighbor when my friends in Afghanistan and Haiti are dying right now. That’s my neighbor. And silence from a lot of the churches of what’s going on outside of this 90 mile radius that their church exists.

[BRANDY]

Yes, don’t even get me started on pro-life. I’ll get stoned the minute I leave.

[BILLY]

Well, I think it’s different. It’s different for us. Some people might listen to this and it’s just out of their, I have a friend that just doesn’t have these conversations anymore. He lives up in little rock and he found, he grew up, his dad was a pastor in Fort Smith, Arkansas, really a great guy, great church, but he had to get out of that and he became a member of an Anglican church. There’s more liturgical type things. It holds meaning for him because it’s different than what he grew up in. He found a beautiful space in place. So like all of these conversations I would be having would be lost on him. He’s like, I don’t move within that, that evangelical world anymore where Christianity’s been co-opted and Americanized and become this institution that’s based on transactional relationships because it’s viewed through the lens of capitalism.

I love capitalism when it comes to business and things, but when it comes to the church and relationships, dare I say, socialism tends to work a little bit better when we’re serving the poor and taking care of the easy and not in the terms of like Marxism and things like, but like a non transactional, if I do for you, what can you do for me? I just do for you. I don’t have to take an Instagram post about what I’m doing for you and talk with everybody about what I’m doing for you, but I’m just doing, because that’s the goodness of the gospel and that’s how I connect with Christ on a real level today. That’s counterintuitive to me because I’m selfish and self-centered, and don’t like to do things for other people naturally. But I find the beauty in it when I get outside of myself and begin to do those things, I don’t know if I’ve taken off track a bit, but —

[BRANDY]

No, I don’t think so. I think, and Lathan can speak to this too when you said the greatest command at part A and part B, those are hard. Like if I just worked on myself with part A and part B man, I’m busy the rest of my life, because those are hard commandments. I start off with every intention and by eight, 15, I’ve already messed up. So if I’m really doing part A and part B, that’s all this feeble person can handle.

[BILLY]

Or did you say I’ve messed up? Like, and my big question now is have I even messed up or am I just living the human experience? I view it through messed up because I said a curse word and I was thought, curse words are bad and so now I’m bad. So I’ve got to take this. I’m a depraved, horrible human being and just have to shower myself with negativity —

[BRANDY]

Because we need Jesus to get us out of the shame. When you’re right, it could just be that’s part of the journey.

[BILLY]

I was just being human. I was just having a human experience and acted human and that —

[BRANDY]

And that draws me closer.

[BILLY]

We haven’t had these conversations. Preach to us.

[LATHAN]

I think, Brady you made a comment, like a side comment earlier than this episode. Remember you said I don’t know if we’re experiencing a revel right now. That’s what you said. I think revival is in these conversations. Because I think the revival that the church actually needs is found by the people who have been really screwed by the church. Because the way the church is doing things and having revival right now, ain’t working. You know, you guys you’re in Texas, there are some churches that have week long revivals. That’s what they call them. It’s just this, like, we’re going to bring in a guest pastor and we’re going to, and it’s so full of freaking shame. Like it’s so full of shame.

It’s this idea of like almost this Catholic practice of just like, come in and let us wash you off with this idea of Jesus and then go out and be clean. It’s just like, I think through revival, you guys are familiar with this denomination too, because we’re again, we’re in Texas, SBC, it’s a Madison Convention. This past year at their conference the whole conference was clouded by sexual abuse of this like people coming out and saying, “Hey, this gospel you’re preaching, screw it. Like I have been sexually abused by the people that are preaching the gospel.”

So, and it was intense and it was man, like just so much goodness in the conversation, people saying like, “I love Jesus, but I really, really hate what we’re portraying Him to be.” That’s the revival that’s happening, is people are going are being called to the carpet, but it’s not the pastor who comes to the carpet. It’s the people who are calling the pastors to the carpet. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no, enough with your conviction and your shame and your guilt. It’s your turn to repent.

[BILLY]

We will, I love that you mentioned that. I was very excited when they elected the new president and I know that was tense and people that don’t understand the Southern Baptist Convention won’t know things, but they should have been talking about sexual abuse in the church. The church should lead the forefront of a revolt against that. I have seen this happen. We become so focused on what goes on in the bedrooms of consenting adults yet we are not addressing the issue of child abuse and sweeping stories under the rug and silencing voices. You want to see damage in the therapy office. When I see true damage, I see a child that made an outcry and it didn’t get heard and it got dismissed and it got swept under the rug and the way they connect church to God. Because church didn’t listen, God doesn’t listen. There is a wound there that runs so deep and that is the church’s fault. They should have done different. They have to do better. We have to do better.

[LATHAN]

It changes an eternity, that kid coming into the, the therapy office, which side note, if they didn’t come into therapy, praise God, they did, Hey, everybody go to therapy. It’s awesome. But if they didn’t go to therapy, there would always be this hatred, justifiable hatred, but hatred, nonetheless of church. So that eternity is in the balance. Like that’s, we’re not talking about tax returns here. We’re talking about eternity like separation or which we can theologically talk about what that means too but just the idea of not being in perfect goodness with God, because a pastor molested you and nobody listened to you.

[BILLY]

Truth. If I never hear the word internal investigation again, it’ll be too soon, that term of, we’re going to look into it. We’ll do an internal review of the behavior. You have to bring —

[BRANDY]

Quick PSA. Quick PSA for somebody who was an executive director of a nonprofit that dealt with child sexual abuse.

[BILLY]

Hey, Brandy.

[BRANDY]

PSA to everyone. It is not your job to investigate and gather information. If you believe that there is something going on, please report it. Call, there’s an 800 number for your state, look it up online. You do not have to gather information. You are not the expert in the area. All you have to do is suspect child abuse, all it in, you could be saving a child’s life.

[BILLY]

Come on.

[BRANDY]

That’s it.

[LATHAN]

Next mic drop.

[BRANDY]

I think that that’s part of the problem is we, the church thinks, well, I don’t have enough evidence. It’s not your job to do an internal investigation. You did not go to school. You’re not a qualified person to do that. You are though, however, a mandated reporter by the state that you’re in because of the office that you’re in to call it in. If you know that you’re not calling it in, God be with you.

[LATHAN]

Let’s get real for a second. Talking, you’re talking to somebody who experienced child abuse from their stepfather. There were so many warning signs and cries for help in school that I gave of like, Hey, maybe if I do this or act like this, maybe they’ll ask and nothing. My wife’s a teacher now and we have an understanding and a policy that if there’s even an inkling of it, we’re reporting, we’re calling CPS. There’s no, because children in abuse seeking of her personal empathetic experience will do whatever they possibly can to not say outright I’m being abused and not show scars, but draw attention to themselves in a way that’s different so that you might notice what’s going on.

[BRANDY]

It’s the adult’s responsibility, not yours.

[LATHAN]

Yep.

[BILLY]

Thank you. Thank you Lathan for, we’re in tears over here and just in solidarity with you and sharing that with us and —

[BRANDY]

Thank you for sharing that. God, it’s just so important for people to hear. It’s so brave of people to talk about it because we don’t talk about it the church sure won’t talk about it. You don’t hear any pastor from the top saying, we’re not going to stand for this. If this is going on, here’s the 800 number to call. You come and talk to me. I will report it. So often we do, we’ve created these temples. So I don’t want to put blame on the pastors. Like we, as a human race, craved this structure and we rebuilt a temple when Jesus tore it down and we continue to build these temples and we continue to put these people on platforms and hold them to such accountability that is not possible for any one person to hold. When they mess up, we love to crucify them.

I believe there are good pastors out there. I believe there are people that are held to expectations that they should not be held to. But at the same time, the people in the congregation are the ones building the walls and saying, sweep that under the rug. Let’s not talk about it. Because we want to look like the perfect church. To me, the perfect church is the one that isn’t perfect. It’s the one saying we welcome all. We’re the statue of Liberty. Give us your hungry, give us your weary, your tired and we are messed up.

[BILLY]

Not keep them out. We don’t want them here, the ugliness.

[BRANDY]

If I’m wrong in this, I’m okay with being wrong. I’m okay with being on the side of too much grace and I’m okay with being on the side of screw the patriarchy and let’s tear the temple down because, I’ve said this before I like eight pounds, six ounce Jesus. I see Jesus in the way of fighting for injustice, turning over the tables and speaking to the Pharisees and loving the leper. That’s my view of Jesus. If I’m wrong, I really don’t care. It’s how I’m going to live my life of the woman at the well, and him hanging out with Mary and the 12 disciples. He wasn’t hanging out with the Pharisees. We as a people —

[BILLY]

He didn’t spend a lot of time in the temple either.

[BRANDY]

No, we keep building it though. He keeps trying to tear it down. When he did go into the temple as the teenage boy and his parents couldn’t find him, I think that’s funny. They wouldn’t suspect he was at temple. There’s just so many good little nuggets in there of Him living a life that was so different from the way everyone else did. I feel for me and my family often that we’re living a life that’s very different from the culture, the subculture that we’re in right now. It’s so wonderful to hear other people that, Lathan you and I may not agree on half the stuff in theology, we may not agree on a lot of it, but what we can agree on is we need to love people and not exclude people. I love how Billy always says, it’s not my job to love him on who they should be. It’s just my job to love them who they are and not who I think they should be. That is loving your neighbor as yourself. That’s really hard. It’s really hard. It’s hard to do it with my kids.

[BILLY]

Well, when we talk about loving your neighbor as yourself, what I’ve seen in my own personal life, and what I see in others is because people feel so much shame and so much internal hatred for themselves. They can’t love their neighbors themselves. They hate their neighbor as they hate themselves. There is no love. There is no grace. So like, how do I love someone as myself when I can’t even realize that I’m one of God’s kids and God’s just crazy about me?

[LATHAN]

And when the church is saying that’s self love is selfish. You can’t love yourself because you’re supposed to die to yourself and deny yourself in this like monstrosity of this woe is me type, Isaiah stuff. That’s like, where are we getting this from? Like self love and a holistic sense is part of being human and you can’t love your neighbor if you don’t love yourself.

[BRANDY]

Well, we can sure shame ourselves and we can sure hate ourselves. We’re really good at that. I’m really good at that. Then that’s —

[BILLY]

That’s my default.

[BRANDY]

Yes, and then that’s when I act out to other people, my own self hatred, and that’s when I’m a jerk and that’s when I have to stop. I can do that. I can project my own hatred for myself on other people. I don’t see how that’s representation of who Jesus was. He didn’t spend His time self deprecating and telling everybody how horrible He was and how much He needed God, because He was a terrible, terrible person.

[LATHAN]

There’s another part of this, like, sorry, I interrupt you —

[BRANDY]

No, go ahead please.

[LATHAN]

There’s another part of this of the woman caught in adultery, like dragged into, the town square, whatever you in downtown call it. The only person that loved himself in that situation was Jesus. Because everybody else had stones ready to throw because of the shame that they had cast and the hatred they cast themselves of like, okay, this woman sins. I know it happens when I sin. Like I want to throw some stone of this girl. And Jesus being fully God, and also fully human just said, Hey, I’m going to get on your level. That’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to do this thing called empathy where’s the church really sucks up. That’s a whole different conversation. I’m going to get down to your level and say, Hey, you good? I’m right here. Like you and me eye to eye. I’m going to write something in sand that people are going to talk about for, nobody’s going to know what I write. That’s going to be awesome. It’s going to cause a split and it’s going to be great, but I’m going to write this the only intimate language only I know, and you’re going to walk away and you’re going to be free.

[BRANDY]

He does say, go and sin no more. He does say, go and sin no more. That’s the part I think that we get really caught up in. But I like what Billy says and what his 12 Step program has said, go and sin no more. When you do send, keep coming back, like keep coming back here and it’ll be okay and we’ll do it again until we don’t have, how many times do you forgive your brother? 70 times 70? It’s like, keep coming back. I’ll be right here, drawn in the sand. I’ll be here. If you go and you mess up again, I’m here. Keep coming back. You’re one of God’s kids and I’m crazy about you.

[LATHAN]

It’s beautiful that that happened outside of the church. I really wish that outside of the church would teach the church how to do that. But the church won’t listen because they have figured out.

[BILLY]

Well, yes, I mean so many times. It makes me think Jesus isn’t showing up with skin on and getting down in the, but I guess in ways, Jesus is when that is alive in us. We’re the people who shield those folks from the stones and the people with the stones feel this righteous indignation and that they’re right for what they’re doing. But sometimes you have to step in front of those people and say, I’m not going to let you throw that at this person. They don’t deserve that.

That may make you mad at me because you think they may deserve it and that may put us on opposite ends of what we believe is right and wrong. We’re just not going to stand for it anymore. I’m not going to be okay with it. I’m going to speak out against it. That may cost something, but it pales in comparison to what is costing the person who’s getting hit by the rocks. I mean, that hurts.

[LATHAN]

So good.

[BILLY]

So Lathan, God, we’re going to have to have a part two. I don’t know where we’ll meet for coffee. It’ll probably be in an Easy Mart somewhere, because Starbucks —

[BRANDY]

For our listener in Wisconsin, Easy Mart is a local gas station.

[BILLY]

Yes, it’s not anything inappropriate. But even if it is for you, we’re not judging. Lathan, where can people find you? What work are you doing right now? If this has resonated and I’m sure it will, because it did with me. I’ll tell you very rare do I go and have talks or listen to sermons and it moves me anymore. It’s usually, the only time that he gets me emotionally is worship. Like, come on. It’s hard for me to go in a church and hear hymns or worship music and not want to cry. I mean that, it still wrecks me as much as I’m like, no, I don’t want to do the church thing. I cannot help but weep in just adoration of who God is now. Words don’t do much for me but these words today have just, I mean, it’s been a bomb to my soul. I’m rubbing it in my heart right now because I’m connecting with you. So if people want to connect with you more, where do they find you? Where do they hang out with you? What are you doing?

[LATHAN]

My website’s lathancraft.com. On that you can find anything you need. You have any, obviously you’re listening to podcasts right now, so you can type in The Other Side of The Church podcast. The time of this recording, my next podcast episode is with a sexual abuse survivor who talks about how prayer is traumatic for her even today because of the abuse that she experienced. So I’d love for you to subscribe. Subscribe actually is not even a thing anymore. They took that off. So that’s awkward. Just listen. And man, listen to these guys. Billy and Brandy are incredible. I’ve been, this has been one of the best guys I’ve really ever had my life. This is awesome.

[BILLY]

Lathan, I think we’ve made a friend here. Can’t wait to —

[BRANDY]

Can’t wait for you to get well and you and your family so we can actually meet in person and solidify this friendship.

[BILLY]

Yes, in real time. Lathan, thanks for hanging out. Go listen to his podcast. We’re going to go listen today. Talk to you later guys.

Beta Male Revolution is a part of the Practice of the Practice podcast network, a family of podcasts seeking to change the world. To hear other podcasts like Bomb Mom podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. This is given with the understanding that neither the host, Practice of the Practice, or the guests are providing legal, mental health, or other professional information. If you need a professional, you should find one.

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