The Danger of Bad Theology with Kevin Garcia

TRIGGER WARNING: THIS EPISODE CONTAINS A DISCUSSION ABOUT SUICIDE Is there a “right” way to be Christian? How does the way you think about God inform how you treat others? Can bad theology be dangerous? In this podcast episode, Billy and Brandy Eldridge speak with Kevin Garcia about how bad theology kills. Meet Kevin Garcia […]

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TRIGGER WARNING: THIS EPISODE CONTAINS A DISCUSSION ABOUT SUICIDE

Is there a “right” way to be Christian? How does the way you think about God inform how you treat others? Can bad theology be dangerous?

In this podcast episode, Billy and Brandy Eldridge speak with Kevin Garcia about how bad theology kills.

Meet Kevin Garcia

Kevin Garcia is a digital pastor, a mystical theologian practitioner, and an intuitive soul coach based in Atlanta, GA. After coming out in the fall of 2015 as a queer Christian, Kevin has reached thousands of individuals across the globe with messages of God’s unending love for all people, regardless of who they are.

Through his work as a digital pastor and public theologian, Kevin has used their writing, podcast, and YouTube Channel to help foster communities of authentic spiritual seeking, pulling apart the bad theology and beginning to reconstruct sustainable spiritual practices. Kevin believes that by telling our stories, we set others free to tell their own.

Kevin is the author of Bad Theology Kills: undoing toxic beliefs and reclaiming your spiritual authority. Kevin is also the creator of Queerly Beloved Apparel and Big Queer Adventure Co.

Visit Kevin’s website and connect on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Youtube.

In This Podcast
Summary

The danger of bad theology
Is there ever necessary suffering?
Is there a “right” way to be Christian?

The danger of bad theology

This shit made me want to kill myself and I attempted twice. That to me is not good, and what is not good is called bad. This is the theology that led me to the edge, and that’s not good, so therefore it must be bad. (Kevin Garcia)

Systems of belief are as dangerous as any other weapon because they can lead a person – and people – to assume what is right, what is wrong, what is accepted, and what is excluded, without asking or enquiring.

Thoughts and beliefs are not permanent. They can be shifted, if a person is willing to have some open and honest conversations.

Drugs kill, rah-rah kills … bad theology kills … this idea expanded beyond human sensuality … I think what we think about God is what we think about humanity in general, and how we think about God also [informs] how we are going to treat humanity. (Kevin Garcia)

As Kevin discusses, if we do not see one another as divine then we are not going to treat each other well.

Of course people don’t treat trans people with respect [because] they don’t see us as part of God’s image because God was, “male and female and He created them”. (Kevin Garcia)

Is there ever necessary suffering?

Suffering, in some ways, is a part of life. There will always be some difficult times to move through, regardless of who you are or where you come from.

The suffering that we experience as a result of systems of oppression needs to be identified so that we can recognize that it’s not our fault. (Kevin Garcia)

However, your background can either help you to move through the suffering more easily, or your background can make it more difficult.

For example, it is easier for some people to “get on” with suffering because they have the privilege of coming from a stable background, being educated, having family wealth, and a support network.

For other people who have different backgrounds or lack financial or emotional support due to past or present systems of oppression, there is no equity in that suffering.

You’ve got the new-age hippy-dippy people that say, “if you just vibe and think differently about it you’re going to feel better”. That works really well if you are white, able-bodied, cisgender, male, or affluent. That’s who that works for 100% of the time. (Kevin Garcia)

Is there a “right” way to be Christian?

Wait a minute, the Catholics think that they’re the universal church, and my church thinks that everyone’s ecumenical, and then other people think that gay people are going to hell no matter what, then there are those other people that think gay people are okay, can they all be correct? That doesn’t make any logical sense to me. (Kevin Garcia)

Is there a “correct” way to be Christian?

Once Kevin reached their 20s, they had the space, time, and energy to finally address life on their terms and not by what other people had constantly told them.

That’s where it started to break down. I was on the mission field, I was trying to be the best Christian in the world and I was told that these things would make me happy, but they did not. In fact, trying to deny myself made me even sadder. (Kevin Garcia)

Useful links:

BOOK | Kevin Garcia – Bad Theology Kills: Undoing Toxic Belief & Reclaiming Your Spiritual Authority
Visit Kevin’s website and connect on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Youtube.
A harrowing journey with Madehania Baheta
Discover more at The Beta Male Revolution Website

Meet Billy Eldridge

Meet Billy, the resident beta male. For Billy, this is a place to hang out with other beta males and the people who love them. We’re redefining what beta males look like in the world. I have learned to embrace my best beta self, and I can help you to do the same. As a therapist, I understand the need to belong. You belong here. Join the REVOLUTION.

 

Meet Brandy Eldridge

Hello, Beta friends. I am an alpha personality who is embracing the beta way of life. I feel alive when connected with people, whether that is listening to their stories or learning about their passions. Forget small talk, let’s go deep together. Come to the table and let’s have some life-changing conversations.

 

Thanks for listening!

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Beta Male Revolution is part of the Practice of the Practice Podcast Network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you thrive, imperfectly. To hear other podcasts like the Bomb Mom Podcast, Imperfect Thriving, or Empowered and Unapologetic, go to practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Podcast Transcription

[BILLY ELDRIDGE]

A quick warning. This episode contains mention of suicide. So listener discretion is advised. Hello and welcome to beta mail revolution podcast. A podcast that started out by seeing the world through a different lens of masculinity, and now has become a place for people to deconstruct their in the second half of life. I’m Billy Eldridge.

[BRANDY ELDRIDGE]

I’m Brandy Eldridge. As a married couple, we’ve had a ton of disagreements, tried to be honest about challenges and setbacks and hopes of becoming better versions of ourselves. So grab a cup of coffee, come hang out. Let’s chat a little bit like we’ve known each other for 20 years.

[BILLY]

That’s what I’m talking about. Let’s get jaggy with it.

[BILLY]

Today on the podcast we have Kevin Garcia, author of Bad Theology Kills, and I figured we owed our audience an explanation about why topics like these matter to us, why, especially around the LGBTQ community and why it matters that we talk about these things As a straight couple in the south. Why even care? Why does it even matter? For me, it would probably center around the way I was brought up to believe about homosexuality and the LGBTQ community. It wasn’t necessarily inclusive. Well, it wasn’t inclusive. It wasn’t including, it didn’t allow spaces and places for us to even begin to have conversations around this issue, especially when it came to faith, because it was a sin, it was wrong. Whoever was engaged in this world and this lifestyle needed to change their behavior to be a part of the and club, I would say, I was a part of growing up and my faith community.

When I became a counselor and I got to know people and their stories, and even before that, getting to know people, it began to challenge my ideas around this issue. When I began to question this, I had to begin to question everything. So I’ve been on a learning journey ever since then. I’m still on that journey. People like Kevin, who is a digital pastor, a mystic, a theologian and a person of faith helped me learn and helped. So Brandy, what is it for you?

[BRANDY]

I think right now, it’s just a non-issue. My God is, I don’t even have words for it. People are just so much more than their sexuality and I really appreciate Kevin for coming on. Kevin is an amazing person and sexuality shouldn’t matter because when you listen to Kevin, it’s just light and love and had so much to learn. I’m just ready for it to be a non-issue there’s. So many other issues right now in our world, in our country that need to be addressed. I’m just over this one.

[BILLY]

But I can understand, like for people who are even in our family, that this is a difficult thing. It’s challenging for them to begin to, well, it goes down to the fundamentals of your faith and how you interpret scripture when you grow up in a conservative Christian space.

[BRANDY]

So fundamentals of Christianity then like, love the Lord of your God with all your heart and love others done.

[BILLY]

Yes. But the challenge to that is we, from what I hear from people, is that we have an obligation to speak the truth and love to people who are outside of God’s will. Because if we don’t, they may spend an eternity separate from God. So what we’re doing by challenging their lifestyle and beliefs is really a loving, gracious thing where we’re doing —

[BRANDY]

Yes, I’m just over, it’s just not interesting anymore. It’s just not interesting, the fight, the argument, like none of that is interesting to me. I just am over it. I mean, that’s my attitude today. Tomorrow may be different and I may be able to fight and ready, but I’m not. I’m just like people, if you are so concerned about what goes on in other people’s bedrooms, then there’s something wrong. Just leave it alone, go love on some people, go feed some homeless people, get out of your own self-righteous self. You’re probably going to say we need to edit this because I don’t need to say that but it’s just at this point, I just don’t care. If your whole job in life and you feel that you need to make everyone else like you, then go do that, see how it’s working out for you.

You’re going to miss out on a great, many amazing people and their stories, and that’s not empathy. That’s not practicing empathy. You haven’t walked in their shoes. You don’t know their story. It’s really self-righteous of us to presume we know so much about people that it’s our job to tell them to be more like us. That’s not, it’s not who I want to be. It’s not who I’m raising my kids to be. If that’s your way, go ahead and unfriend me, stop following us. Don’t listen to our podcast because that’s not what I’m here to do. You’re going to miss out on some amazing stories of people and their struggles and the connection. To me, that brings me closer to God, when I hear that people have struggled and I can relate to that. It’s vulnerability. Man, who are we to say that we’ve got it all understood and that our lives are perfect. If people would just act more like us, how is that love? How is that empathy? How is that kindness? How is that graciousness? Like none of the fruits of the spirit come from that. So if we’re going to go there, I don’t want to be a part of it anymore. I just don’t.

[BILLY]

I like your firing, your love. It’s contagious.

[BRANDY]

We both read your book.

[BILLY]

We have Kevin Garcia, the author, Bad Theology Kills. We hope to get into a little bit of that because we want to readers to grab the book and read it, because —

[KEVIN GARCIA]

Oh yes, love talking about it.

[BILLY]

You rock our world. We’ve had friends with personal stories that, have a dear friend who decided when he was 40, he was going to end his life because he realized people would really start asking, why aren’t you married and when are you going to get married? These are the stories we hear and we live with the day and we don’t want to be a part of systems that make people want to die.

[KEVIN]

What a concept?

[BILLY]

Yes, yes.

[KEVIN]

What a nice concept, what nice feeling?

[BILLY]

So wherever you want to take us, but where did it start? What happened and where are you now?

[BRANDY]

How did the Kevin Garcia

[BILLY]

The Kevin Garcia?

[KEVIN]

Well, it was, before I’d even come out, I was trying to figure out like my branding and whatnot, because that’s what you did. Because I was like, I was a blogger before I was anything else, when blogging was huge and it was like, Rachel Hal Evans, Sarah Basy, Jeff Chew, that little circuit. That was a progressive Christian thought at the time.

[BILLY]

I’m sorry to interrupt, but I listened to a podcast where you said you wanted to be the gay Rachel Hal Evans.

[KEVIN]

Still stands.

[BILLY]

We were trying to think —

[KEVIN]

Go ahead.

[BILLY]

We’re trying to be the straight Glen and Dolly. It’s not really, we want to be, we’ve got a long way to go, but we’re trying.

[KEVIN]

Listen, every day that you just try to have some fun as you’re doing this thing, that’s the thing about podcasting and that’s the thing I think people enjoy about listening to those two, is that they have fun and people are going to follow joy. It’s really attractive to me. The Bad Theology thing started off as a t-shirt because apparently I can only write books that I have like a whole t-shirt and branding strategy around first. But it started off as my one little sentence to sum up why I changed my mind about specifically sexuality, whether like does God bless same-sex marriage, let alone gender diversity or anything else. Because that was the question I had to start with was like, is it okay for me to be queer, specifically gay? Can I be a gay man and be a Christian?

When that became quite obvious it just became so clear to me, like even beyond having a hermaneutic or a theology or an argument for it’s just like, this shit made me want to kill myself. I attempted twice. That to me is not good and so what is not good is called bad. So I was like, okay, so this is a theology that led me to the edge and that’s not good. Therefore it must be bad and I was like, oh, and then I thought about the edge. There’s all this sort of like drugs kill, rah rock kills, I’m like Bad Theology Kills. I meant that in the most sincere way and then I saw that this idea expanded beyond just human sexuality, but has everything to do with, I think what we think about God is what we think about humanity in general and how we think about God is also how we are going to treat humanity.

If we don’t view humanity and the person around us as divine, if we don’t see that, then of course, we’re not going to treat them that way. Of course, people don’t treat trans people with respect. They don’t see us as part of God’s image because God was, male and female, He created them. So this book was really a stab at that, it uses some really easy theological concepts that are pretty common amongst mainliners. I’d say, even say like, even the Theo Bron out there, like the Wesley quad later that changed my life because it really just said if your experience drives you in, I mean, I guess the thing I took from all of my training growing up Christian is like, I was taught that my experience was the last thing I should consider. Then womanism and black liberation theology says, no, you should let your experience be your first indication of whether or not what you believe is working or not. By working, I mean, is it causing you to be filled with joy or is it causing you to feel awful and miserable? If it’s causing you to feel miserable, you should look at that at minimum.

[BRANDY]

But Kevin, God never promised us to be happy.

[KEVIN]

That’s true. I mean, sure. God never promised it, but I would like to have it for myself regardless of what y’all think God promised me. People say, God didn’t promise, I’m going to sound like a real hater, God didn’t promise us anything. In fact, I’m not looking for God to promise me anything anymore. I’m just like, God’s who is, for me, it’s like, that’s not a helpful concept that as if God is some personality out there with whom I can bargain with. Now, I see God is not as a personality that’s outside here, like either choosing to ignore people and bless other people. God is the sense of wellbeing that is flowing through all things and I’m very aware that I can pinch myself off from that. But I’m also very aware that if I can just change my mind for even a moment to refocus on a feeling of peace within myself, that to me is God, that to me is happiness. That to me is peace. That’s the whole point. So the book really is an attempt to point out like all of these different things, you don’t have to believe it and if you need a theological device to get here, here are a bunch of things that you can try. But at the end of the day, you don’t actually need to break these things down. You could just give them up

[BILLY]

How much suffering, did you have to go through suffering to get to that point and was suffering a part of it? Is that, we talk about joy and being happy. Is there a necessary suffering and how do you lean into that and how does that lead to joy, if possible?

[KEVIN]

I don’t think there’s necessary suffering. I think that there is in, well to pull from our friend Buddha and the three noble truths there is suffering in the world. They’re suffering because we clinging and the last part there’s a way out. So Buddha presents the noble path, eight fold path? Eightfold? Which is the Buddhist path of getting to stop clinging to things. I follow along that same line is that, oh God, yes, there is suffering in the world. A lot of it happens because I am clinging. I would take it a step further to say that a lot, like systemic suffering that we experience in the west. I mean just in, let me rephrase that, the suffering that we experience as a result of systems of oppression needs to be identified so that we can recognize that it’s not our fault.

A lot of, we’ve been trained to think that the suffering that we are experienced by and large is our fault. Then you’ve got your new age, hippie divvy people who says, if you just vibe and just think differently about it, you’re going to feel better. That works really, really well if you are a white, able bodied, cisgender male affluent0 That’s who that works for 100% of the time. But when you look at a queer person, trans person, black person, brown person, disabled person, woman person, et cetera, it’s a little bit more difficult because what happens when you get paid less than a man, because you’re a woman, what happens when you can’t get your driver’s license changed and you show up looking like a Leslie, Leslie Tiana Carter and your driver’s license says Tim Allen Carter? You know what happens.

That’s not my fault. That’s nobody’s. That’s a huge systemic problem. I think that is what I try to get out in this book too, is to recognize how much of this is systemic so that you can recognize that it’s not your fault and to recognize that you do have the power to direct your thoughts too. It’s like, yes, I am suffering and that’s not necessarily the only thing that’s true. If I am suffering what I do in my practice and what I teach people is just move the responsibility from heaven to here, if you will. Stop waiting for God to do something about it. God’s right here telling you I got your back, what would you like to do? So I think it’s our responsibility, I fully believe it’s my responsibility to take care of myself. When I can’t, maybe I should ask for help. If I don’t have anyone around me, maybe I should ask what I call God. What our friends in AA call a power that is beyond my understanding. That’s the God I believe in typically.

[BILLY]

Yes. I was texting a friend earlier, she’s been reading through some Richard Roar.

[KEVIN]

Oh baby, that’s when you get real, real in trouble.

[BILLY]

Yes. It’s taken her down a path and we just talked earlier today. She sent a quote and I said I know growing up in church with my struggles, with alcoholism and addiction, it was just like pray and be delivered. I would do that and it wouldn’t work, so I became disappointed in God and disillusioned. Then I get into a 12 Step Program and they say you’re one of God’s kids. God loves you. That’s it, whether you get sober or not okay. Then all of a sudden I start getting sober. There was no more pressure around this expectation that God’s got to do this magic thing for me.

[KEVIN]

It’s not magic. It’s math.

[BILLY]

Oh, say more about that.

[KEVIN]

Well, I mean, you know this as a human who’s in recovery, but I think, and this it’s like across the board is that you’re not sober by accident. You’re sober because every single day you’ve woken up and chosen in one form or another to figure out how you’re going to stay at a level of feeling good so that your body doesn’t crave comfort in the ways that it used to because those things no longer hold value for you. That’s not by accident. That’s a little bit at a time every single day. It’s not perfect either. People think that when you’re like, oh I’m sober now, I never ever have a craving or I’m completely beyond those things. At least from my perspective is that I still have so many of the same neurosis. I just don’t pay attention to them as much. That is because I’ve spent my time focusing on what I do want rather than the absence of what I do want. So that’s the same, that’s what you’ve done. That’s literally a little bit of time every single day adds up to what, the miracle of sobriety.

[BILLY]

Yes.

[KEVIN]

And that’s not magic. It’s math. You got here on purpose.

[BILLY]

I like it. I like it. When you mention the struggles, the cravings people ask, are they still there? I like do this recovery work for a living. Now it’s my life’s work. I still have cravings. It’s more like a nut. It’s I’m not in a tsunami of obsessive thought, but the nut comes around and buzzes in my ear every now and then. But I do this daily thing and I don’t put it past that. It’s not, I don’t know if I’ll stay sober forever, but I’m pretty sure I’m going to bed tonight sober. I really have some confidence in that.

[KEVIN]

That’s all I have to do. I cannot tell you about what’s going to happen months and months and months from now or years from now where how I’m going to react when X happens. But I know what I will do right now. That for some people is like revolutionary. I’m just like eternity? I’ve already got that. I already have forever. Tell me about right now. That’s what I have trouble grasping. Forever I’m already in it. We’re already in it, but now that’s where we miss. That’s where the magic happens.

[BRANDY]

I want to ask you this evolution of Kevin and just how, I know you don’t like the word deconstruction, but just when you started to question what things weren’t making sense, that theology that kills, how old were you, what were you thinking? Then you talk about, which I thought was, I’m going to hold onto, you said that I think, and I’m going to try to paraphrase it that people view God a certain way and that’s how they love people. So I want to know how has your view of God evolved with you during this time? How did you see God first and then, and now and forever?

[KEVIN]

I’ve had a really interesting relationship with spirit, God love and including, I’ll say that the person of Jesus, because for, He’s just been a part of my story for a long time. When I was nine years old, I was at Jesus Camp and I had a mystical experience. At least that’s what I knew, I know now it was a mystical experience, but at the time I just thought that everybody was experiencing this. I’m like, oh my gosh, this is what it is to feel in love. I was just so filled with joy and I was so excited. I was nine years old and I was just running. I had never been so full of energy in my entire life. Now I know it’s like, oh, that’s what it feels like to be completely aligned and to touch source while still awake.

I’m like, oh. I was told Kevin, you should stop being so dramatic. I’m like, me? Dramatic? Never. It was very confusing for me as a kid, because it’s just like, here I am having this very visceral experience of what I think is God and all these other people around me telling me that I’m too loud, I’m too much and that began the, that you’re at national tape of you’re too much, you’re too loud, et cetera; which I think I should bill those people from my therapy because I’m like you caused that. I could have been so much more chill.

I was very much growing up with a very personal connection to Jesus. He walks with me, talks with me, tells me I’m His own. I always felt. I didn’t doubt that until I was about 13 and I realized, well, let me say this, I’ve actually never doubted the love of God for me. I doubted my ability to live up to the edicts that would allow me to enter into eternal life, according to the rules, which were handed to me, which didn’t always really make sense with how he applied them. But no one talked about that, of course. Because, of course, you didn’t have a problem. You just need Jesus. When I was 13, I was outed by my dad, to my mom and it was pretty shitty because of course she’s scared. So I was put into XK therapy, fast forward, 12 years, I am in college and I’m like, okay, last ditch ever. Let’s go become a missionary. Even though I was like half in half out in school, I was like, okay, as long as I really buckle down, by the time I get to my mid-twenties, then I’ll be healed in the Christian.

I was out on the mission field and finally away from all of the people who were providing the most influence. I was away from my Pentecostal church and literally out there in the world with five other people who didn’t know what the hell they were doing either and all of a sudden I have the brain space to think and it was like, wait a minute. The Catholics think that they’re the universal church and my church thinks that everyone’s ecumenical. Then there’s these other people who already think that gay people are going to hell no matter what. Then there’s those other people who think that gay people are okay. Can they all be correct? That doesn’t make any logical sense to me. I was like, okay, again, that’s also where I was like focused. What is correct? What’s the right way to be a Christian, the most correct way to be Christian?

[KEVIN]

I had a Roman Catholic friend who converted in college who told me without equivocation, there is one more, there is a correct way. I was like, okay. That’s where it started really starting to break down, is like I was on the mission field. I was trying to be the best Christian in the world and I was told that these things would make me happy and they did not. In fact trying to deny myself made me even sadder and more depressed. Also I thought that the reason I wasn’t achieving all the things I wanted was because I didn’t want them bad enough. I didn’t want the things of God enough. I was all the sorts of that they train you to think about yourself. Fast forward I come home, I work for the missions organization for a while and then I realized this isn’t going away. I was like, okay, I have to learn how to live with this. So I ended up going to the Reformation Project conference in Atlanta and I heard an affirming sermon.

[BILLY]

Do you even argue anymore? Do you push back against institutions? Is that even something that’s interesting anymore? Do you just do your thing?

[KEVIN]

I will say for my part, I do not engage directly with institutions anymore because I don’t see the benefit to my own life, because in general, if I’m thinking about the way I started out my work, from the day I came out, I was working for Reformation Project. I worked for them as a contract worker in different capacities for about six years. The whole process of organizing was specifically to, and trying to organize within faith bases is a totally different ballgame. Well, not totally, but it’s a different ballgame than political organizing. Political organizing you hit somebody in their pocketbook, they change their mind. Churches is not so much the same way. You hit somebody in their pocketbook, people double down and they fundraise a hundred thousand dollars on GoFundMe somehow.

So when working in those spaces, I was like, we were trying really, really hard to say, oh, can’t you like, maybe we can meet a common ground or maybe, we were just trying to nudge people to get them to the precipice of trying to see the promise line, if you will. Once you see how good it feels to love someone completely, you’re going to be just drawn in by the sweetness of an inclusive Jesus. Let me tell you power whiteness and the fear of hell can mask and keep you away from freedom, can keep you away from expansion.

[BILLY]

And can turn you into an alcoholic.

[KEVIN]

Ding, dong, hello. Look at the fruit of it, baby.

[BILLY]

Yes, there was a place where I had to escape, but I couldn’t leave it, but I had to drink to disassociate enough for it to make any sense and coming into a place and a space where people are like, well, why don’t you just find a God you can do business with? And that’s scaring the hell out of me in the best way, in a bad way. That freedom, that’s heresy. You can’t do that. You don’t get to pick and choose who you do business with. You can’t trust God to reveal Himself to you because what if He reveals the wrong thing and you get it wrong and you suffer for all eternity? The scary for a young person going through life, but then when you get away from it’s like, I don’t know there’s such freedom. Just hearing you talk about it for me, who, it didn’t have much to lose to do that. I mean, what am I going to lose? I’m a straight, white middle class guy.

[KEVIN]

Oh, but still the fear still does like the whole, it’s a whole production.

[KEVIN]

There’s still loss involved, I think, regardless of who you are. It’s different kinds of loss, but it still is a loss in some way but this is what I think is really lovely is I like the teaching of Jesus where he says, listen, if you try to save your life, you’re going to lose it. But if you lose it for my sake, you’re going to find it. I didn’t get that until I got kicked out of missionary world because I thought that my whole life was about to be, I was going to be a missionary. I’m here to proclaim God’s good news to the whole earth, et cetera, et cetera. I lost it. I thought it was supposed to be a, I thought I was dead. I’m like, oh my God, we’re going to be the next Hill Song. We’re going to win Dove awards. We’re going to be like, I was that girl. I wanted to be Kim Walker Smith but in her Goth era. I loved Goth era, Kim Walker Smith. It was such a vibe, that giant ass Mohawk, anyways.

[BILLY]

I love it.

[KEVIN]

But I lost my life. Then on the other side of it’s like, oh, this is fun. This is enjoyable. My life is so much sweeter than it’s ever been before. This must be what Jesus might have been talking about, when you lose your life for the sake of Christ, which for me is for the sake of awakening to that, which is truest, to awaken to my reality, with all, if you will, to awaken to the source of inner love and wellbeing that’s inside of me a fountain, if you will, or maybe from my belly comes forth, living water is whatever you want to label, you want to put on it. I think that’s, the piece I feel when I meditate, that’s what I think Jesus is talking about. That’s what I think it means to lose, to find my life, because this is so much better than anything that I stop doing.

[BILLY]

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