Episode 3: I Finished My Draft! Now What?! (Part 2 of 2)

Hi everyone, and thank you for listening to the launch episodes of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between!

We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves.

We kick off the podcast series with a discussion of the lifecycle of a book. We're going to cover straight up to the book's release over this episode and the next, and today we talk all the way up to the happy-scary moment when your book is picked up by a publisher.

We Make Books is a podcast for writer and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, and concerns, and any theories you may have about "Spider-Man: Far From Home."

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this introduction, the first batch of new episodes drops on May 14th, so be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss it.

A transcription of this episode can be found below.

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=== Transcript ===

Kaelyn: 00:00 Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of the we make books podcast, a podcast about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am an editor and acquisitions editor at Parvus press.

Rekka: 00:12 And I'm Rekka Jay. I write science fiction as RJ Theodore and one of my books has published through Parvus Press

Kaelyn: 00:18 And we love it. It's such a great book. Should I'll go get it. Um, so this is the second half of our two introductory episodes. Um, we are kind of doing a rough, uh, walk through.

Rekka: 00:30 I think it's more of a tear through

Kaelyn: 00:32 A tear through yeah. Tear through of, um, the publishing process. Same qualifiers. Last time we know this is not a perfect in depth every single part of the process.

Rekka: 00:42 The part you care about. Yeah. We didn't talk about it enough but we will someday.

Kaelyn: 00:45 No, I mean we were like that one. We're leaving that out. But, uh, this is, you know, so the first episode, which hopefully you just finished listening to, we covered, um, from having a finished manuscript up to submissions and broaching into the process of acquisitions here, we're gonna start with acquisitions and walk you all the way up to what happens to get the book on the shelf. If you didn't listen to the first episode I recommend go do that. If you didn't listen to our introductory episode, I also recommend you go do that. Um, just to get an idea of us, what this podcast is about and what we're planning to do here.

Rekka: 01:17 Yeah. Before we're 10 episodes in and you have a lot more to catch up on.

Kaelyn: 01:20 Yeah. And, uh, you know, we're releasing these all back to back. So, you know, this is a,

Rekka: 01:25 This is our launch day, funny we should mention that we get to that.

Kaelyn: 01:29 Yes, yes. So we talk a lot about launch days, um, so you know, just some information, some. Um, and to also give you an idea of topics that we were going to be discussing more in depth with dedicated episodes as we go down the line. Uh, so this is the second half of the two parter. Let's just get to it.

Rekka: 01:46 Yeah.

Kaelyn: 01:46 Hope you enjoy.

Kaelyn: 01:47 [Music]

Kaelyn: 01:54 Okay.

Kaelyn: 02:05 It is kind of what we do.

Rekka: 02:07 So, um, we spent an episode talking about sort of more the writers realm of responsibility.

Kaelyn: 02:14 Yes. Real quick. Welcome back everyone.

Rekka: 02:17 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're fine. They've been here. Whatever we said high already, they're binging.

Kaelyn: 02:22 I don't know, you know, it's nice to like,

Rekka: 02:24 Be polite?

Kaelyn: 02:25 I know everyone's going to be just listening, you know. Hopefully everyone's just going to be listening to these two, this batch after the other. But you know, it's nice to say hello again in case they had to walk away from that. But so where last we left you, it was a cliffhanger.

Kaelyn: 02:39 It was a cliffhanger. You just got accepted. Then what happens?

Kaelyn: 02:42 Then what happens?

Rekka: 02:43 Is this a soap opera or is this real life?

Kaelyn: 02:46 Really quick? Tight pan on the face. Giant eyes. [gasp]

Rekka: 02:53 Cut to commercial.

Kaelyn: 02:53 Cut to commercial. Um, no. So where are we last left you, we were ah, you know, so you've gotten a call from an acquisitions editor.

Rekka: 02:59 Yes. In theory, all your hard work has paid off.

Kaelyn: 03:03 That's, hey, look.

Rekka: 03:04 And all your hard work is just beginning.

Kaelyn: 03:06 Yeah. Yeah. I think there's this thing that everyone thinks some about my book. I'm good.

Rekka: 03:12 I'm done. Oh God, that's so wrong.

Kaelyn: 03:14 So wrong.

Rekka: 03:15 Sweet summer child. You are so wrong.

Kaelyn: 03:19 That's good. I'm trying to think of things that could not be farther from the truth.

Rekka: 03:24 Yeah, there's nothing.

Kaelyn: 03:25 Um, so we're going to walk you through what happens after that now. But in order to get to that, we got to talk about acquisitions process a little bit.

Rekka: 03:35 Yeah.

Kaelyn: 03:36 So you Rekka, are someone that has been through it. I myself, uh, in case you have not listened to our intro episode, which go listen to it.

Rekka: 03:43 Yeah. Yeah.

Kaelyn: 03:44 Um, I am an acquisitions editor for Parvus Press, so I, this is–

Rekka: 03:49 This is what you do.

Kaelyn: 03:49 This is what I do among other things, but this is, this is the bread and butter of my, a lot of my job. Um, so again, we're not going to get into too much crazy detail here. Um, this is stuff we're absolutely going to talk about more down the line. Um, but we want to give you sort of a brief run through. So very quickly glossing over all of the, you know, what makes me interested in books because there is no good answer to that.

Rekka: 04:21 Yeah, and it's not a universal.

Kaelyn: 04:22 No, not by any stretch of the imagination. But let's say you've submitted your manuscript script. I've enjoyed it and next thing that's going to happen is you're going to get a call from me or if you've gone through an agent, I'll probably go through your agent and then set up a call with you.

Kaelyn: 04:40 So what's going to happen here is I'm trying to get a good sense of you. I want to see what you envision for the book, what you're like to work with as a writer and how working relationship will be going, but also set your expectations for what we want and what we'd be asking you to do to your book because, and this is a running theme you're going to see through this: there's no such thing as a book that gets accepted and immediately published. It doesn't happen.

Rekka: 05:15 Or should not happen.

Kaelyn: 05:16 Should not happen. If it does happen, don't publish with that publisher.

Rekka: 05:22 That's not your publisher.

Kaelyn: 05:23 That's not someone you should be working with. Um, so we're going to have a couple of conversations. Uh, if there's an, if there's an agent involved, there'll be involved in the conversations. Um, most places, and again, another qualifier everywhere is a little different. Um, but you should be talking to people before you even start talking about a contract. So once everyone's kind of gotten to a place that we've, we've had, you know, had some conversations back and forth, Rekka, what is the one thing you need to stop and do? As excited as you are and as ready to sign the contract as you are? What should you do agent or not?

Rekka: 06:09 Research, this publisher. Research this publisher until you know what the mineral makeup of the ground they're building is built on this, right?

Kaelyn: 06:18 I mean, it's true because a few reasons. One, you know, presumably for working with an agent, they are, they're going to take care of you and look out for you. So you shouldn't be, you know, there's that. But even still, you should still be doing your own research if you not make sure that you're, you know, at minimum ending up in a place that is going to work well for and with you at worst, make sure you're not getting stuck with some kind of predatory publisher that's going to lock up your rights for years.

Rekka: 06:48 Right

Kaelyn: 06:49 So I know it's exciting, it's really exciting.

Rekka: 06:52 It's very exciting. This is exactly what you've been working towards. You know, as far as you're concerned, this is your end goal. I mean, it's probably not your end end goal, but this is a moment that feels like everything hinges on you getting that contract and advance as fast as possible.

Kaelyn: 07:10 Yes

Rekka: 07:10 And that may, you know, it may not be the right publisher.

Kaelyn: 07:13 Don't let it cloud your judgment, you know, for all of the time, all of the time we spent talking in a previous episode about how much blood, sweat and tears went into this, keep in mind how much of your blood, sweat and tears went into this. Don't throw it away.

Rekka: 07:27 Right.

Kaelyn: 07:27 I can't imagine having to make the decision to walk away from something like that. But think how miserable you will be if you don't.

Rekka: 07:33 Right. This is a decision that seems like there's a lot of pressure pushing you in one direction and that saying no to a publisher and walking away, it may be your only chance and you will regret it forever and you will never get your book published if you don't go through them. And they may even say that and you definitely don't want those people.

Kaelyn: 07:52 Yeah.

Rekka: 07:52 Um, but look at the catalog of books that have been put out by this publisher. Those are the lists of names of people that you could potentially reach out to and just say, hey, I have been offered, you know, a purchase of my book by this publisher and I see that you worked with them, could you tell me,

Kaelyn: 08:13 How was the process?

Rekka: 08:14 You know, without divulging the, you know, the,

Kaelyn: 08:17 Were you happy with them is a very easy to answer a question without asking for too much specifics, just yes or no?

Rekka: 08:26 Yup.

Kaelyn: 08:26 Just yes, I'm very happy with them. I have a great relationship or eh, it could have been better.

Rekka: 08:30 And the reason you go to the catalog is because these are the books that the publishers still retains rights to, but they may not be authors that are actively with that publisher. So you may find some more honest answers than others.

Kaelyn: 08:42 Yeah yeah, so, okay. Let's say you've done all your research. This is great. This is the publishing houses of your dreams. You are so excited! Now it's time for the contract.

Rekka: 08:51 Yes.

Kaelyn: 08:51 And ...

Rekka: 08:52 You like legalese? I hope you like legalese.

Kaelyn: 08:55 I really hope you like trying to understand minute details of things that are hopefully never going to apply to you.

Rekka: 09:01 But I have a question. Kaelyn.

Kaelyn: 09:04 Huh?

Rekka: 09:04 I have a question.

Kaelyn: 09:05 Sure.

Rekka: 09:06 Does anyone talk like the language in a contract?

Kaelyn: 09:11 Yes, but only if we're talking about a contract.

Rekka: 09:13 Yeah. What is that? What is the deal with that?

Kaelyn: 09:17 It's you know, it's cover your ass language is really what it is.

Rekka: 09:21 But obfuscated information is not covering your ass if

Kaelyn: 09:25 Well, actually it's ...

Rekka: 09:25 it's well for debating what that even means.

Kaelyn: 09:28 This is actually a good point to bring up is the reason that these very specific and very complicated words and phrases are used is because there have been court cases over the meaning of specific words. So you have to use specific words because they need us

Rekka: 09:45 Because they have court precedents.

Kaelyn: 09:46 Yes. And they translate to a consequence essentially. So yeah, as you're reading through this going like, oh my God, what? And I realize this must be extra torture for writers.

Rekka: 09:57 Yeah.

Kaelyn: 09:58 I just, I have a couple of comments

Rekka: 10:00 I have some feedback. If you're open to it.

Kaelyn: 10:03 The plot of this clause is just all over the place.

Rekka: 10:07 I really don't like how it ends.

Kaelyn: 10:07 I don't know who this subsequent is, but they keep, they keep popping up and then nothing happens.

Rekka: 10:16 So, um, yeah, no, it's, it's, they can be daunting but...

Kaelyn: 10:22 And if you don't understand what they mean, do not sign them. We're going to, we're going to get to that. So if you have an agent, your agent is going to handle a lot of the contract negotiations. They will, I mean, they should be, you know, keeping you involved, talking to you about, well, are you willing to take this? And this or they'll advise you, cause you know, your agents a professional, they know how to navigate this.

Rekka: 10:46 And they're also familiar with these terms and these ...

Kaelyn: 10:47 Yeah. Subsequents. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So if you're doing this on your own, look, I'm not going to say, you know, you must go get a lawyer because it's expensive.

Rekka: 11:01 However,

Kaelyn: 11:02 However,

Rekka: 11:03 So is signing away your rights without understanding what you're signing away.

Kaelyn: 11:06 Yes, exactly. um, if you don't understand what you're reading, if you have questions about it, again, this is your blood, sweat and tears.

Rekka: 11:16 And if this is your first book, it means even more than like your third book or your fourth book.

Kaelyn: 11:20 Exactly, yeah. So think about how much time and effort you put into this and think about if it's the ri - worth the risk of signing a bad contract.

Rekka: 11:32 Mmhmm.

Kaelyn: 11:33 Most places, I won't say they're not out. I will say they're not out to screw you.

Rekka: 11:39 However,

Kaelyn: 11:40 I will go so far as to say they're not trying to take advantage of you, but like every contract, each side is trying to get as much out of the other as they can. Now, I will say like, and I'm not just saying this because it's Parvus, I will say and Rekka, you can attest to this, we write very fair contracts and I think there is definitely an effort on the part of a lot of, especially independent publishers to do that. But it doesn't matter if somebody, if an offer sent it back to me and I said, you read it over, you have any questions? And they said, ah, whatever. I just signed it. I'd just be like, oh boy.

Rekka: 12:14 Actually so funny story.

Kaelyn: 12:18 Um, just read it. If you have any questions, you know, find someone or Google it, look it up. You know, there is, we will, we will do an episode about this. Talk about, you know, things that should be red flags and contracts, but the biggest things that are going to be the most interest to you covered or your advance, your royalties, your rights, uh, deadlines. That's a big one because

Rekka: 12:43 Kind of a big one

Kaelyn: 12:44 Lot's of them will ...

Rekka: 12:44 They're in there in black ink.

Kaelyn: 12:46 Yeah, a lot of times they get written into the contract and you know, you can, you're, you can lose your advance if you don't meet the deadline. And then there's going to be a lot of things like, you know, um, termination, um, you know, sales quotas like different things for longer down the road. And you know, those were the ones that you might gloss over, but you shouldn't. Umm, also in there is going to be any stipulations about what the publisher versus you were going to be doing for marketing. Um, things about your audio books,

Rekka: 13:17 Your author copies.

Kaelyn: 13:18 You're author copies. All different kinds of little things that you should be aware of. Like I said, we're going to do, we're definitely going to do one where we get a little more in depth with this because it's very important. And on, I think the post acquisition side, it's the most intimidating part of the process. Like the, I have no idea how any of this works.

Rekka: 13:41 And what does this word mean? What does it mean if I sign this the way it's written and am I allowed to ask for changes or are they going to withdraw their offer?

Kaelyn: 13:49 Exactly. And you know, honestly they shouldn't.

Rekka: 13:52 Right.

Kaelyn: 13:52 Um, you go back and say, Hey, I'm concerned about this,

Rekka: 13:56 The phrase contract negotiation is a thing.

Kaelyn: 13:58 Yes, yes. And um, yeah. I'm not going to say some people will say never accept the first contract given to you. If that's a good contract and you're happy with it.

Rekka: 14:08 Yeah, if the things that you were most concerned with are addressed to your liking in the contract and you know what everything means and you're, and it's not just because I think I know what everything means, but you actually understand and you've had conversations about what everything means. Then if you like the contract, if the things that mattered to you are, are, set to your satisfaction, there isn't anything that like you would, you would want to clarify or or modify. You can sign that contract.

Kaelyn: 14:39 Yup. There's nothing, you know? Yeah. Just be smart about it is the thing. At the end of the day, the last thing you want is to walk away with a contract that you're unhappy about.

Rekka: 14:50 Right.

Kaelyn: 14:51 So you've got a great contract. You're all excited, you've dug in, you've had conversations with the acquisitions editor or the publisher. Hopefully you've had a conversation with, if not your editor, somebody who is on that team or associated affiliated with them. At least you've talked about what the plans are for the book. They've talked about what your intentions for the book are, how you see the future of the, if it's a series, how you see it going.

Rekka: 15:14 Mmhmm.

Kaelyn: 15:15 So now,

Rekka: 15:17 And some of the changes that they want might have been in your contract, so you may have already had this conversation.

Kaelyn: 15:22 Yes. That's a good point. Yes. There they may say the publication of this book is contingent upon you doing A, B, and C. We'll talk a little bit more about that in the next section about working with your editor, but part of the reason for that is to make it clear what the expectations are with this, because ...

Rekka: 15:45 And that's a good thing.

Kaelyn: 15:46 No, it is.

Rekka: 15:46 And it sounds so firm and so stern, but it really is the more clear that anyone can be the better off for everyone involved because you know what you're getting into.

Kaelyn: 15:55 And I think this is where people, writers start to get nervous about publishers that, and this is a good transition into working with your editor because I think they get nervous about what they're going to make me change everything. Here's the thing. We would not have bought your book if we didn't like it the way it is. You wrote a good book. We would not have bought it if you didn't. We're going to take it and make it a great book together. This is a team process. This isn't, you know, some random person descending from on high with a red pen, marking it up and tossing it back to you. This is, you know, this is a conversation. This is a process,

Rekka: 16:37 And you're still going to be doing the work of the edits. This is still going to be your book at the end of it. Take every challenge as a way to go, okay, how do I make the strong stronger? What do I want to do here? They're going to offer you probably some kind of suggestion,

Kaelyn: 16:50 Oh, you'll have conversations.

Rekka: 16:50 But it's not a fully formed suggestion. It's going to be more of a challenge.

Kaelyn: 16:54 Yeah, you'll have conversations. Yeah. I mean I, one of my favorite things that I get to do and you know, um, apart from acquiring books, they edit our books too. I love getting on the phone with my authors and talking through and having things explained and having a problem and going like, okay, how do we work?

Rekka: 17:11 Um, I planned a bank heist with my editor

Kaelyn: 17:14 And that's honestly, that's my favorite part of this is the first part, the developmental edits. So developmental edits are, you're working on the story, it's the structure, themes, cohesiveness, character arcs, making sure everything makes sense, lines up is a nice neat package at the end of the day or if it's supposed to be a mess at the end, it's an appropriate mess at the end. Um,

Kaelyn: 17:40 So this is where you're going to be having a lot of conversations with your editor and every editor works differently. Um, I know the way I deal with my authors is different from the way Rekka's editor, deals with her and we work at the same company.

Rekka: 17:54 Yes.

Kaelyn: 17:55 And I think part of that also is, you know, making sure the editor fits well with the author. Everyone works differently.

Rekka: 18:01 We knew that Kaelyn would never be able to tolerate spending any amount of time with me,

Kaelyn: 18:05 No, no ...

Rekka: 18:05 So Kaelyn did not become my editor.

Kaelyn: 18:07 Yeah, so we just decided to do this podcast together. [laughter] That seemed like a much better,

Kaelyn: 18:14 So we just, we don't even just email each other back and forth. We're in the same room together,

Rekka: 18:18 Yes.

Kaelyn: 18:18 For long periods of time.

Kaelyn: 18:19 So probably a good idea now not to ever work on a book together, just in case. Oh God, could you imagine? I can't decide if that would be like,

Rekka: 18:27 The best or the worst. Yeah,

Kaelyn: 18:28 Awesome. Or if we'd just be like handing back like a 700 page tome of like, so here's the thing, if you read this, when you get to the end, the book becomes a singularity, [laughter] so make sure you're away from everything when you get to that. Yeah, no, we could, we could possibly do some damage there,

Rekka: 18:52 Or at least, and the podcasts early, [laughter] one or the other.

Kaelyn: 18:58 Either we take over the world or we killing each other. It's going to be okay. So that's, you know, that's going to be what your developmental editor is doing. How many passes, there's no answer to that,

Rekka: 19:07 As many as many as it takes.

Kaelyn: 19:09 As many as it takes.

Rekka: 19:09 Hopefully, like, you know, everyone is cooperating well so that somebody isn't resisting a change in writing around the change.

Kaelyn: 19:16 And that's a great part of the ...

Rekka: 19:20 Admission?

Kaelyn: 19:20 Yeah, well no, that's a great spot to talk about. You know, having conflict with your editor and what we were talking about before about the sphere of like they're going to come in and change everything. Our book, my book, everyone's book. Okay. Having, you know, your editor might come in and tell you that your favorite part of the book isn't working and that's difficult to hear.

Rekka: 19:44 Because it's precious

Kaelyn: 19:45 It's precious. And I will say someone who's had that conversation, it's difficult to say because I personally can tell the parts of the book that they really like.

Rekka: 19:57 Enjoyed and are proud of ...

Kaelyn: 19:57 Yeah, exactly. Um, try not to fight with your editor. It's just, and conversely, your editors should not be picking fights with you, but it's not going to help anyone and it's going to strain the relationship. It's, you know, everyone, every relationship with editors is different. If you disagree on something, try not to look at it as a conflict. Try to look at it as how are we going to sort this out and how can we get to a mutually beneficial conclusion both for us and the sake of the story. Nobody wants to write a book under a black cloud.

Rekka: 20:39 Right.

Kaelyn: 20:39 It's not ....

Rekka: 20:40 Cause you're gonna remember that black cloud, when you look at that book on the shelf later.

Kaelyn: 20:44 And this is, you know, like again as, as an editor, I never want an author to walk away from a section unhappy. Like I've had so many times where I've had to tell writers, yeah, put it down, walk away from it. Because if you write it right, like the way you are right now, and you know this isn't necessarily because we're in disagreement over some things might have just been frustration or writer's block or

Rekka: 21:07 Society or,

Kaelyn: 21:08 Yeah, it's the same thing with having a disagreement over it. You're not going to be happy with the book and you're going to regret that. And part of my job as your editor is to get the book to a place for it is an excellent book and you're both happy with it. So at the end of your developmental edits, everything that we've talked about, your story, your character arcs, the structure, the plot lines, everything should be where you want it to be. Both parties would be happy with it. They're going to say functionally the story's done.

Rekka: 21:36 Yeah.

Kaelyn: 21:36 Yeah. Then comes line edits.

Rekka: 21:38 Okay.

Kaelyn: 21:41 Line edits ...

Rekka: 21:42 Speaking of functionally. functionally this isn't English

Kaelyn: 21:46 Yes, line edits are the part where you start to question your ability to write. Line edits are your editor, and again everywhere is different. It could be your editor that does this, you know, if it's a larger publishing house, maybe the hand off to someone more junior to uh, to take a look at.

Rekka: 22:05 But it's not a bad thing if it goes to somebody else because now you get another

Kaelyn: 22:10 Oh yeah,

Rekka: 22:10 New perspective on this book who's going to catch stuff because they haven't been part of the process so far.

Kaelyn: 22:15 Rekka actually just brought up a kind of potentially key component here that we didn't really bullet point, but it's good to talk about is: Beta readers.

Rekka: 22:25 Mmmhmmm.

Kaelyn: 22:25 Now the use of these.

Rekka: 22:27 They are precious and they're wonderful.

Kaelyn: 22:28 They're precious, they're wonderful. Buy them cookies, give them hugs.

Rekka: 22:31 Build an army.

Kaelyn: 22:31 Build an army that's full of cookies and lots of hugs. Depending on your publishing house or who's publishing you, they may or may not use them. But for the sake of, you know, this here, and by the way, if you're self publishing, Beta readers,

Rekka: 22:48 Are so key,

Kaelyn: 22:49 So key and crucial. Um, but Beta readers are going to do basically what Rekka just said. They're going to look at the book, they're going to, you know, say like, I liked it. I didn't like it. I was confused at this part. Um, this character's storyline doesn't make sense to me. You're going to get large scale feedback from, macro feedback from them, if you will. And that's, you know, depending on how things work, that might be after most of the developmental edits or that might be kind of during,

Rekka: 23:18 Yeah, it's, it's kind of up to you as the author if you were in, you know, working with your own army.

Kaelyn: 23:23 Yeah. The editor will, you know, um, I know a part of this, we have a Beta reader program,

Rekka: 23:30 But if you know, you have heavy lifting to do on your book, you don't want to bring,

Kaelyn: 23:32 No, that's not ...

Rekka: 23:33 In the Beta readers because that, that's wasting their time.

Kaelyn: 23:36 They are for fine tuning.

Rekka: 23:36 They will be reacting to this as a reader would. And that's really a valuable thing.

Kaelyn: 23:41 That is, yeah, it's so important because it's just a great perspective to have. It's an indicator. It's, you know, we've dropped something in this solution. Let's see what color it turns to tell us what it is.

Rekka: 23:55 And if you have more people, it goes from an n equals two to like an n equals 10 maybe. And that's just like, it really, it really multiplies how many reinforcing opinions you get on, like whether it works. Yeah.

Kaelyn: 24:08 So that could be happening either during the process of developmental edits or right after, but then afterwards you going in the line edits, line edits, it's like we were talking about are sentence structure. Um, ma- watching and catching for like repeated words.

Rekka: 24:27 And believe me. You've got repeated words.

Kaelyn: 24:29 Trust me, you have repeated words. I understand they're only so many ways to say the word desk, but,

Rekka: 24:36 But you can write around it.

Kaelyn: 24:37 Yes. So you know line edits, I mean, your editor is going to go in there and they're going to just make the changes and they should track everything and it's not, you must do this a lot of times. Like when I do it, it's like, look, if I'm adding ha- half of the sentence or I'm moving something, this is a suggestion and I'm giving you an idea of how to make this work better.

Rekka: 24:59 Yeah.

Kaelyn: 24:59 Um, you know, some editors are kind of like, nope, you're doing it this way. This is so again, everyone's a little different. It is not a reflection of your command of the English language. It is a reflection of the fact that writing somewhere between 70 and 150,000 words causes fatigue.

Rekka: 25:18 Yes.

Kaelyn: 25:19 And there are only so many ways you can say something differently. Um, so this is the clarity portion of things. This is the making sure that when the reader reads this, they understand what they're reading.

Rekka: 25:32 And a lot of that is making it succinct.

Kaelyn: 25:34 And if I wrote that sentence down, I would make them change it.

Rekka: 25:37 Yeah. [laugter] Yes. Spoken sentences are the worst.

Kaelyn: 25:41 But I mean Rekka, you do you do a read aloud, right?

Rekka: 25:44 I absolutely do a read aloud. I'm still suffering recovery from my, my last real aloud, which ended, um, almost two weeks ago now.

Kaelyn: 25:51 Yeah. Which is, I mean, you know, for, if you're unsure of what it is, it's you get your manuscript, you go through it and yeah, Rekka's pointing at, I'm not joking. It's a two inch binder.

Rekka: 26:03 I'm sorry. That's a three inch binder.

Kaelyn: 26:05 Three inch binder. I was wrong. That was a three inch binder of her printed manuscript and there's all sorts of flags and posted sticking out of it. We'll put a picture of it on the Instagram so you can say can get a look out of it in its full glory.

Rekka: 26:17 Yes.

Kaelyn: 26:18 And you go through and read this out loud because reading it out loud is the way the reader, like you don't understand that because you've written this, you are so familiar with it. You're skipping and skimming and there's stuff in there that you missing.

Rekka: 26:33 Your brain is telling you, it says what you think it says.

Kaelyn: 26:35 Exactly. Yeah. You normalize it in your mind. So then you're gonna get line edits I mean that is a lot of, that's tracked changes that's accept,reject, acccept, reject. Okay, wait yeah, I see this is wrong. alright, she told me to put this in here and change it, you know, so I'm not going to lie. It's a process. It's not, it's not super fun, but it's just,

Rekka: 26:54 Get your favorite beverage.

Kaelyn: 26:56 Get your favorite beverage.

Rekka: 26:57 Wear your favorite pants.

Kaelyn: 26:58 Your favorite, your favorite non alcoholic beverage.

Rekka: 27:01 Yeah.

Kaelyn: 27:01 Because doing this drunk is a bad idea, not going to come out great.

Rekka: 27:05 Yeah. There will be tears or um, yeah, I don't even know.

Kaelyn: 27:09 This is the, this is, I mean this is the, uh, can't even do English good part of the process because then come the copy edits. This is an entirely different person than your editor, generally. The copy editor is the definitive, they are the ones that say no, this is where the comment actually goes. Authors present, company included, have a tendancy

Rekka: 27:37 No, you shush! Commas are a spice.

Kaelyn: 27:42 Commas, commas are not voice.

Rekka: 27:48 [laughter]

Kaelyn: 27:48 They are ...

Rekka: 27:48 I'm sure I spit water for my nose, but I'm,

Kaelyn: 27:52 I swear to God, I'm going to make mugs that every Parvus author, all new authors we sign gets, that says: "Commas are not voice". I understand. It's hard. It's like, no, I want them to see that this is the end of the thought and

Rekka: 28:06 Okay, William Shatner, um,

Kaelyn: 28:11 [laugher] But your copy editor is the one who's going to go through, they're going to, you know, check your grammar, your punctuation. They are also the one who is going to deal with your style guide. So they're going to say, okay, if it's a dash, it's space dash space or there's no space or there's just a space before and they're going to go through and uniformly format all of that stuff. At some point we will absolutely have a copy editor on the show because they're.

Rekka: 28:42 They're special people.

Kaelyn: 28:43 They are, no, I mean they are like, it's, I can't do it. Like I won't even try. I mean there are some times, but like I will copy edit, do a rough copy edit of something real quick, that's like a sample chapter because we just got to get it out the door and it's not ...

Rekka: 29:01 If you look at a final copy edit,

Kaelyn: 29:03 Yeah, and then I'm like, Oh God, I'm stupid. Wow. [laughter]

Rekka: 29:07 I don't know how to comma either.

Kaelyn: 29:10 Um, so you know, that's that. A good copy editor by the way will also go through and, you know, maybe say like, 'Hey, this sentence was a little confusing to me or maybe separate this into two paragraphs. Um, copy editors are special people who deserve all of the hugs and cookies in the world.

Rekka: 29:28 Wait, what happens to the hugs and cookies that were from my Beta readers?

Kaelyn: 29:31 They, they hang out with the copy editors.

Rekka: 29:33 It's like they just picked the crumbs off the floor.

Kaelyn: 29:37 Okay, fine. The Beta readers get,

Rekka: 29:39 Copy editors get bacon.

Kaelyn: 29:41 There we go.

Rekka: 29:41 There we go.

Kaelyn: 29:41 I mean everyone knows copy editors love Bacon. So then after that,

Rekka: 29:47 Can I just, can I just make a comment?

Kaelyn: 29:49 Of course.

Rekka: 29:49 If your book reaches copy editing, Yay.

Kaelyn: 29:52 Yay!

Rekka: 29:53 Cause you're done with the line edits, you're done with the revisions. Because what I was going to say is you're done.

Kaelyn: 30:01 Um, copyedit is like that's, I won't say it's carved in stone.

Rekka: 30:07 But that book is on its way out the door.

Kaelyn: 30:08 But it's heavily etched into clay. If you need to, you can go back and fix something, but we really don't want to do that.

Rekka: 30:18 Yeah, minimal touching after.

Kaelyn: 30:21 Yeah, exactly. You know there's definitely like there've been times when we've, you know, had to do that and then it's um. For those of you listening at home Rekka is vehemently trying to avoid eye contact with me.

Rekka: 30:34 There might have been some last minute issues.

Kaelyn: 30:36 And look, it happens and you know, but like copy editing, you are functionally done the book at that point. In the meantime cause you're probably going, okay well I've got all this stuff going on. What's this publisher doing that's supposed to be so great and special? Rekka?

Rekka: 30:55 What is the publisher doing Kaelyn?

Kaelyn: 30:59 You looked like, you looked like you had a thought.

Rekka: 30:59 I was going to say that between getting these revisions back, you've got stretches of time where you're sitting and you probably pacing if you're not sitting.

Kaelyn: 31:14 Um, Rekka is about to go into a whole thing.

Rekka: 31:16 Yes in the meantime.

Kaelyn: 31:18 So we're going to do,

Rekka: 31:19 Meanwhile,

Kaelyn: 31:21 What the authors in the meantime should be, and then we're going to jump back to what publisher is doing. Because you're right, there are long stretches of time where you're just sitting there waiting to get things back.

Rekka: 31:32 Yes.

Kaelyn: 31:32 So what are you doing in the meantime?

Rekka: 31:34 Well, aside from stressing that things are not actually being looked at.

Kaelyn: 31:39 You're sitting there going, oh my God, they hate it. They're, they're figuring out how to cancel my agreement right now.

Rekka: 31:43 Yes.

Kaelyn: 31:44 This is.

Rekka: 31:45 Yeah, there's that. Or there's like, do they, are they working on me? Are they working on the book that comes out next week?

Kaelyn: 31:52 Um, if we're still working on the book that comes out next weel ...

Rekka: 31:55 Yeah, I know. I know. I know, but you know what I'm saying? I'm like, I know that your calendar has more than my book. Is my book on the front of the table or is someone else's book on the front of the table? And I, if I ask am I going to find out, no, they haven't looked at it and I don't want to know that. So I'm not asking, so I'm just over here panicking. So while you're panicking, uh, try to distract yourself by handling the things that you can take care of at this point.

Kaelyn: 32:20 Yeah, because there's a lot you could be doing to help yourself and help you career and your book.

Rekka: 32:24 When your book launches, you don't want that to be the first day you go, Huh. So should I do like a website or something? [laughter]

Kaelyn: 32:31 So, like people are asking me like, how did I get in touch with me? I guess they should have Twitter.

Rekka: 32:36 Yeah. Maybe a twitter or I don't know. Um, what are readers even? You know, like be on, be public.

Kaelyn: 32:46 I mean, what is a book?

Rekka: 32:49 Well that's, that's another episode, that's a five episode series on what is a book.

Kaelyn: 32:55 The metaphysical. But there will be alcohol involved. There will be crying.

Rekka: 32:59 I'm looking forward to that one. But so, so there are things, you know, your social media platform, you don't have to do every social media venue out there, but pick the ones that you feel comfortable expressing yourself as your, your public persona. If you are using a pen name to hide your identity, now's a good time to start dusting the tracks and making sure that you've sealed those, those ridges tight and everything like that.

Kaelyn: 33:25 Yeah, by the way, now's a good time to start establishing your pen name.

Rekka: 33:28 Right. So you don't want on your book launch day for someone to come looking for you on Twitter and see that you have exactly one tweet, which is please buy my book.

Kaelyn: 33:38 I mean, that's a good tweet.

Rekka: 33:39 It's a good tweet.

Kaelyn: 33:40 It could be multiple of that.

Rekka: 33:40 The publisher likes that can be your pinned tweet, but by then, you know, you can start talking about how excited you are. Um, if your cover reveal has just gone out from your publisher, do not, do not preempt the cover reveal that your publisher has scheduled to do, not do that.

Kaelyn: 33:58 They're going to be nice and show it to you beforehand. But you know, that's, that's under the hat.

Rekka: 34:02 Um find other authors in your genre, um, the, the people who wrote the books, which are your books, comps you, you know, like follow them. Um, don't go like stalking their followers and, and, and attacking people in saying like, please come follow me, you, or anything like, you know, don't be, don't make it weird.

Kaelyn: 34:20 Don't have to be weird about it.

Rekka: 34:21 But, you know, start to build a following, start to follow other people, start to interact with conversations that are not personal conversations and start to tweet about your book, about the process, about your emotions as an author because you want to be a real person when someone comes looking at your Twitter profiles.

Kaelyn: 34:40 So, um, but also there's other people that you may meet in your life.

Rekka: 34:45 Yeah. So I was getting to that, but okay. So I was using Twitter for example. But you don't have to use Twitter. If you are more comfortable on Facebook for some unknown reason, my opinion slightly interjected there or,

Kaelyn: 34:57 No, I mean great because then all your data's going to be given out to a lot of people. So it's actually really good publicity.

Rekka: 35:04 Is that what that is? Didn't feel like really great publicity.

Kaelyn: 35:07 That's not how that works?

Rekka: 35:08 There's Instagram, there is tumbler, there is um, it depends on what your, where your audiences and if you read in the genre that you write in, you probably already know where that audience is.

Kaelyn: 35:18 Yeah, of course.

Rekka: 35:18 You might already be there. So pick your um, your social media profiles and I think it's a good idea, before, I know Kaelyn was trying to lead the witness, but um, before you start attending industry events, if you already have a Twitter handle, you are going to meet people and you are going to become mutuals at these events, if you, if you hit it off, so have a profile that doesn't make you look like a ghost. This is a good thing. So, so get this kind of stuff. Have your website, your website doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to be just a word press website

Kaelyn: 35:52 I mean, you can,

Rekka: 35:52 With a little bit of information about you.

Kaelyn: 35:55 Square Space.

Rekka: 35:55 Yeah, there's a lot of stuff I need to say it,

Kaelyn: 35:58 But create like a very basic, you know, here's a little about me. Here's my book. Here's some links to where you can buy it.

Rekka: 36:03 Yup. Just a clean layout, mobile friendly. And because someone looks you up while you're there, standing in front of you or standing in line to talk to you some like a panel or something. So, but making it, give yourself the online presence that you want while you have control over it.

Kaelyn: 36:17 Yes

Rekka: 36:17 And then, um, and that's a good project to keep you occupied while your publisher is doing whatever the next step is before they need your input again. And then do look around for industry events. Um, ones that have more reader attendance are going to be the ones that you want to focus on more when you already have a book.

Kaelyn: 36:37 Yeah.

Rekka: 36:38 Because a reader can't do anything with your, with the knowledge that we have a contract,

Kaelyn: 36:42 With who you are.

Rekka: 36:42 You know, so, um, go make friends with other writers. And this is so precious to have other writer friends because one of these people understand what you're going through every step of the way they have been there.

Kaelyn: 36:51 It's a support group.

Rekka: 36:52 It's a hive mind and it's also like a herd immunity sort of situation.

Kaelyn: 36:57 Oh my God, I love that. Yeah.

Rekka: 36:58 Yes, that's exactly, that's exactly what it is. And it's a group of people who know what you're going through and sometimes they can pull you aside when you were having a breakdown and they pet you gently,

Kaelyn: 37:07 Deep breaths, deep breaths.

Rekka: 37:07 And they serve you, your, your bacon and your cookies and your hugs and

Kaelyn: 37:10 Tea, tea is important.

Rekka: 37:12 Okay, fine. Some people drink coffee, Kaelyn

Kaelyn: 37:17 Coffee, whatever, whatever hot beverage distilled from plant life ...

Rekka: 37:18 Your cozy beverage of choice. Yes. Hey, sometimes it's beef broth, sometimes beef broth, this is what I need.

Kaelyn: 37:26 It's distilled from a living thing. Cozy beverage of choice

Rekka: 37:28 Cozy beverage of choice, that's the term. So we, um, you know, we as authors, write in this desolate loneliness, like even if you're surrounded by other people, if you're getting the work done, chances are you're silent and you're staring at a screen and you are insular inside your mind. So that's really ...

Kaelyn: 37:45 It's very isolating.

Rekka: 37:47 It's really refreshing to go somewhere where you see that other people are doing this too, that you are not alone in feeling this way. And when you walk into that room and you go, oh my God, I don't belong here, every single person in that room is feeling the same way.

Kaelyn: 38:02 But further, you're wrong.

Rekka: 38:04 Also, everyone in that room is wrong and they will tell each other that, authors who are friends with other authors are like the most beautiful people.

Kaelyn: 38:12 No, it's great.

Rekka: 38:13 And yeah, so, so go make some friends at conferences. Um, it's a whole other thing that we're not going to dive into on this, like how to network at conferences.

Kaelyn: 38:23 We're going to talk about it at some point.

Rekka: 38:24 And we will talk about that. Um, you're not there to sell your book. You've already sold your book. You're not there to, um, to chase agents into bathrooms.

Kaelyn: 38:36 Don't do that, ever.

Rekka: 38:37 So please don't, um, or anyone don't chase anyone into a bathroom.

Kaelyn: 38:42 That's actually, that's a good point.

Rekka: 38:42 Unless they say, please follow me into this bathroom, I need your help with my t shirt tag or something. Anyway. Um, yes, you're going there to be a real genuine, um, trustworthy person. So that's how you behave when you were there. And then we'll go into that in another episode, about

Kaelyn: 38:58 Maybe when we're at the Nebulas? That would be a great, live from the Nebulas.

Rekka: 39:01 And I do have an article on SFWA blog about it. I believe it is called 'A Quantum Residents at the Nebulas'.

Kaelyn: 39:11 That's fantastic. Yeah. So go check that out.

Rekka: 39:13 So I'll link to that in the show notes, but it is, it gives you an idea of what it's like to be among other people who are more creative in a similar way as you.

Kaelyn: 39:21 Yeah. Again, yeah, I think that's a great idea. We'll do that at the, Nebulas so another episode to look forward to.

Rekka: 39:26 Yes.

Kaelyn: 39:29 Umm, maybe we'll grab a few people and to have a conversation that'll, that'll be fun. So that's what you as an author can be doing. In the meantime, what your publisher is doing is all sorts of background stuff that you will, you get checkins and updates about. But really what they're going to be most concerned about is you writing and finishing the book. So, but in what's going on in the background is your publisher is dealing with marketing, they're figuring out, um, you know, how to market this book, who to market it to what the key demographics are. Um, and then a bunch of things are going to come from that. A big one is cover art. You know, that is, that is a huge important thing. I have sad news for all of you authors who just were sketching, you know, your dreams of what the book's going to look like. You don't get a say really. Um, you know, of course you'll get a look at it. You'll get, you know, some progress and updates. But at the end of the day, your publisher is the one that does your cover art. Because for a lot of reasons, but one of the big ones is they know what they're doing.

Rekka: 40:39 Right. And it's a piece of marketing. It's not just the duvé on your bed.

Kaelyn: 40:43 Yeah. And I'd say like, actually that was something that even me, it took a little while for me to get over where like I'm seeing cover art from books I've worked on and I'm like, well that's not quite right. And I'm going, I'm getting Kaelyn, that's not the important part. The important part is this looks awesome and you want to pick it up.

Rekka: 41:01 Um, that's a really tough hurdle to get yourself over mentally.

Kaelyn: 41:05 Oh, it's very, that is, you know what I have to say that is one of the things I found that authors really have the most trouble with because again, it goes back to the personal, this is very personal. And also I think, cause I know I do it when I'm reading submissions and when I'm getting excited about something, I'm picturing what the cover is going to look like in my head.

Rekka: 41:23 Yeah. So you know, the author's doing that.

Kaelyn: 41:25 The author's absolutely doing it and um,

Rekka: 41:27 And they've been working on it longer. So they, they've been dedicating their hearts to some vision that is not coming to happen.

Kaelyn: 41:35 Now, I mean, I will say, you know, we, when we do these, most of the times the response I get back is, oh my God, that's gorgeous. I never would have even conceived of that stuff. You know, trust me, the publisher is not going to screw you over on cover art because they want it to also be gorgeous and represent the book.

Rekka: 41:52 But more importantly, they want it to sell the book.

Kaelyn: 41:54 Yes, so this is big part of the marketing. Um, but in the meantime, they're also, you know, reaching out to industry contacts and their contacts, blogs, uh, publication magazines. Anybody who has a lot of attention that does reviews, they're going to be getting ARCs, advanced reader copies out to everyone, you know, to take a look at and hopefully getting, generating some buzz, getting some good feedback. You know, there's all kinds of social media now that's just based around reading and what you reading and everything. So you know, they're going to be putting these things out on to anyone who review books and like, you know, getting blurbs for the book. Um, in the meantime they're also writing back copy. Writing back copy is really hard.

Rekka: 42:39 It's a whole other thing. As much as you dread writing your query letter.

Kaelyn: 42:43 Oh God, yeah, that's the editors version of the query letter is like writing, so I do understand your pain a little bit because I have to do back copy for the books I work on a lot.

Rekka: 42:51 And, and you print how many copies of that book?

Kaelyn: 42:56 More people are going to see my back copy then your your letter. So yeah. And then they're doing publicity. They're getting everything psyched up for the, for the prelaunch. And really the biggest thing is trying to generate buzz and trying to get preorders because that is what is going to help make your book successful. So that's what's going on in the meantime. So after copy edits, everything's done, it goes to layout. Layout is going to do what layout does. They're going to get the book already formatted to publish. They're going to add any art or um, it's a big letters at the

Rekka: 43:31 Drop caps,

Kaelyn: 43:31 Drop caps. Those, I should know that, um, you know, they're going to take care of all of that to get the lay out going and then you're book's pretty much ready to go. There are a bunch of other steps that lead up to the release of the book that also have to do with marketing. You know, they might ask you to, uh, write a blog post for this website. You did that right?

Rekka: 43:55 I wrote quite a lot of them.

Kaelyn: 43:56 Yeah.

Rekka: 43:57 And let me tell you, just like switching your mindset from writing a book to a query letter, writing a nonfiction blog posts like a worst, I, it feels like writing an essay for a teacher all over again.

Kaelyn: 44:07 So wait, I don't put aliens in this one?

Rekka: 44:10 Well, I mean, I did.

Kaelyn: 44:11 Okay.

Rekka: 44:12 So, but I mean, so a lot of these are nonfiction articles about like your writing process or anything you discovered about yourself or are relating the aliens to some tidbit about your process or something like that.

Kaelyn: 44:29 This is, this is where we're trying to humanize the authors. And I don't need that in the like make them seem like people

Rekka: 44:37 We're totally normal, who said we aren't?

Kaelyn: 44:39 But make it so, people like to connect on that level and see the process. And it's great because it gives you a little insight into how everyone's working and what they're doing.

Rekka: 44:51 And when the author can like express that they are passionate about their book,

Kaelyn: 44:54 Exactly.

Rekka: 44:54 Then other people are interested in that and being and reading it and also being passionate about the same book.

Kaelyn: 45:00 Um, you know, there may be, depending on the scale and the release of the book, maybe you'd be asked to do interviews beforehand, uh they might, you know, then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happened after release. But your publisher is in the meantime just getting everything ready. They're dealing with preorders. If your book is being released to be sold in bookstores, through a distributor, they are dealing with that. That is, that is a whole long process. Um, they're, uh, getting everything set up for ebooks and ebook preorders and just getting everything ready so that when it's launch day, it's ready to go. Social media posts, reviews and magazines and other publications.

Rekka: 45:45 And timing them to like keep the traffic coming for a few days.

Kaelyn: 45:49 They're definitely thinking, what's the best way we can get the most attention on this book for the longest amount of time. And again, if you have an agent, there'll be involved in helping with that as well. Um, so then it's your book, Birthday. Your Book Day.

Rekka: 46:05 Yes. And that was a weird day.

Kaelyn: 46:09 Yeah.

Rekka: 46:09 Because there's not actually a lot going on.

Kaelyn: 46:12 Yeah, you kind of, wa- wake up and feel like the world should be a little different.

Rekka: 46:16 This is, I call it the, um, the birthday Princess Syndrome.

Kaelyn: 46:20 Yeah.

Rekka: 46:20 Like I always, I always looked at movies and TV shows and saw that like on somebody's birthday, they were center of attention and they wore fabulous clothing. And on my book birthday, I got up and I went to work.

Kaelyn: 46:36 Yup.

Rekka: 46:36 And I sat there and I reloaded and social media all day. It was incredibly, it was like the least focused day I'd experienced in months. It was kind of horrible.

Kaelyn: 46:47 Books are released on Tuesdays,

Rekka: 46:51 Yeah.

Kaelyn: 46:51 And so for most people it's

Rekka: 46:53 It's your day job.

Kaelyn: 46:54 A regular Tuesday

Rekka: 46:55 And you somehow try to make it through your regular Tuesday. But all you can think about is your book is out and you're waiting for someone to text you like Amazon rankings or or something. You're waiting for someone to tag you on Twitter or Instagram and not happening. And it's already 7:00 AM. How come nobody is celebrating?

Kaelyn: 47:14 Why has no one been waiting outside Barnes and noble to buy this?

Rekka: 47:17 Why didn't someone bring me flowers at the office? And that's sort of the thing is like every birthday that I had, this expectation that I would be the center of attention, I would end up in tears. And it's very easy to have that same expectation and results on the day that your book comes out. Like you're a published author and the worst thing is going to work. And having some, the coworker say, Oh, I guess you're quitting your day job now. It's like, well thanks.

Kaelyn: 47:41 I am not.

Rekka: 47:42 Um, so you're angry with me for writing a book. You have a complete misconception of how this goes and you're probably not even gonna read the thing, [laughter].

Kaelyn: 47:52 So, that is kind of, you know, that's where we are, it ends with you being the most happy you've ever been, but also really sad.

Rekka: 47:59 Also welcome to publishing.

Kaelyn: 48:02 This is publishing.

Rekka: 48:02 And they will, and you will be asked so many times that day. How do you feel? So you might want to write that blog post ahead of time too because they don't want to know the truth.

Kaelyn: 48:12 Um, so that's kind of a, you know, that's the rough process. Um, like we said, glossed over, you know, a lot of stuff. Just really quickly hitting it because we're going to talk about all of this in more detail down the line. This was sort of a long introductory into this is what this podcast is. I mean, we're not going to do in an order.

Rekka: 48:33 No.

Kaelyn: 48:34 We're going to jump around a little bit.

Rekka: 48:35 Because we're going to miss something and then if we do it in order, then we can't go back. So it's just going to be filling in.

Kaelyn: 48:39 Also it's more fun to kind of, you know,

Rekka: 48:41 Like what are we really talking about?

Kaelyn: 48:43 Yeah like, I've got something to say about this.

Rekka: 48:45 Big mood.

Kaelyn: 48:46 Yes, yes, exactly. Um, so that's, that's kind of where we're going to leave you for this episode. Um, you know, we hope this was at least maybe a little informative.

Rekka: 48:57 And once again, like if you heard a step in this process where you're like, I didn't know about that.

Kaelyn: 49:01 Or I'd like to hear more about that.

Rekka: 49:03 Definitely that. Or, um, if you are feeling more confident as a result because you didn't know all this stuff, like, you know, good for you. But I mean, like we want to hear from you what's useful, what's informative, what's startling and a little bit terrifying. At WMB cast on Twitter or Instagram feedback at Wmbcast.com definitely reach out. And of course, if you're a patron on patrion.com forward slash WMB cast, you can interact with us there and we'll probably take questions for future episodes.

Kaelyn: 49:33 Oh definitely, yeah.

Rekka: 49:33 You have some level patrons later on, um, once we start building up a community there, obviously today's day one. So, yeah, or we don't have great expectations for today cause you know, we try to be realistic about our launch days but um.

Kaelyn: 49:47 No, it's, I mean we, you know, we keep saying this but we really just want to hammer it home, so much of where this came from was wanting to be a resource and build a community that's active and that we can engage wit.

Rekka: 50:01 And have these conversations.

Kaelyn: 50:03 Exactly how these conversations about what don't you know, what scares you, what you know, what is holding you back from trying to do this? What part are you stuck on?

Rekka: 50:13 What have you heard conflicting information on?

Kaelyn: 50:16 Yeah. And look, here's the thing, you're not going to insult either of us with any questions, you know, Rekka's a writer I work in publishing. I know that, I - I've made peace with that a lot of people that are going to listen to this are going to be on the writing side of things. And you know what, that's great. That's what I'm hoping for. So, you know, I'm not going to be insulted by anything that you know, comes our way. Don't be rude, obviously.

Rekka: 50:40 But let's be decent.

Kaelyn: 50:41 Yeah. But, um, yeah, you know, if you're like, if you have a question like, well how come I need a publisher for this? I love it to answer that.

Rekka: 50:51 Right.

Kaelyn: 50:51 And, another a qualification. You know, if you're interested in self publishing, this still also could be helpful for you.

Rekka: 50:56 And I have a self published title, I have future plans for self published titles.

Kaelyn: 51:00 Yes.

Rekka: 51:00 This is like this is a safe space for every path through the book creation process.

Kaelyn: 51:06 Yeah. That's why it's called We Make Books because we all make books in different ways, different capacities and at different points in the process. But everyone is involved making books. So we really want to hear from everyone is, is what we're getting at here.

Rekka: 51:23 Please reach out to us.

Kaelyn: 51:24 Yeah. Um, uh, Rekka and my Twitter's are both linked in the uh,

Rekka: 51:30 On the front page of Patreon, it's on the bio of both Instagram and Twitter. So you can find us.

Kaelyn: 51:35 Yeah, and you know, you can and you know, go through the podcast thing, but you know, you can also reach out to us directly,

Rekka: 51:40 If you have comments specifically or a question specifically for one of us.

Kaelyn: 51:44 We're out there.

Rekka: 51:45 Yes,

Kaelyn: 51:46 And we can't wait to hear from you.

Rekka: 51:47 And so we will talk to you again in the next episode and that will be, if you are listening to this on launch day coming up very, very shortly,

Kaelyn: 51:54 Yeah, like queued up, hopefully next.

Rekka: 51:57 Immediately next.

Kaelyn: 51:57 So stop, listening to this and go enjoy the next one.

Rekka: 52:00 Skip ahead.

Kaelyn: 52:01 Thanks everyone.