Versus Trump
168 episodes - English - Latest episode: about 3 years ago - ★★★★ - 184 ratingsOn Versus Trump, we discuss how the Trump Administration is breaking the law, and what people are doing about it.
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Episodes
The End...Or The Beginning?
January 25, 2021 12:15 - 59 minutes - 54.8 MBWell, this is it for Versus Trump, folks. Trump ain't President anymore! He doesn't even have a twitter account. What a way to end. Charlie and Jason bring back Easha to discuss the short and long term impact of January insurrection. They then reflect on the big picture. After all, we've been podcasting about legal cases involving Trump for almost four years. What in the world happened? To all who listened each week or every once in a while: our most sincere thank you. This was a blast. We...
The Aftermath + Interview with Joshua Matz
January 11, 2021 18:21 - 1 hour - 66.2 MBOn this week's Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the madness of last week and what might happen next for impeachment, cirminal charges against Trump, and more. They are then joined by Take Care publisher Joshua Matz to discuss his views on impeachment and Trump's legal legacy. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes See acast.com/privacy for privacy...
The Electoral College Votes
December 27, 2020 00:43 - 57 minutes - 52.6 MBOn this week's Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the vote of the Electoral College and the Supreme Court's unanimous rejection of Texas's longshot bid to overturn the result of the election. Happy holidays! You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Going To Church In Times Of COVID
December 07, 2020 23:35 - 45 minutes - 41.7 MBOn this week's Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the recent Supreme Court decisions requiring states to allow in-person religious services even while other gatherings can be banned. The pair gently disagree about how hard or easy these cases are. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Legal Update + The GSA Travesty
November 17, 2020 18:34 - 50 minutes - 46.2 MBOn this week's Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the status of Trump's legal challenges to the election (going nowhere) and the Trump Administration's dangerous and illegal refusal to designate Biden as the President-elect and therefore give his team resources for a smooth transition. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/privacy for privac...
Legal Challenges + Post Office Case
November 08, 2020 21:52 - 49 minutes - 44.9 MBOn this week's Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the (frivolous) legal challenges to come. They are then joined by Public Citizen's Matthew Seligman to learn what happened with all those last-minute ballots, and what might happen in ongoing litigation in the Supreme Court. (Note that this episode was recorded before the networks officially called the race for Biden, so there's no celebration. That's coming soon!) You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at ve...
The Law Headed Into The Election
November 02, 2020 16:32 - 1 hour - 56 MBWill this be the last Versus Trump before Trump loses reelection? Who knows, but, on this week’s episode, Jason and Charlie discuss key theories that will shape which votes count. (Note that this episode was recorded before all relevant Supreme Court decisions were final.) You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out info...
Versus The Post Office
October 15, 2020 20:16 - 37 minutes - 51.9 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie are joined by Matthew Seligman of Public Citizen to discuss several lawsuits—including one in which he is counsel, NAACP v. USPS—where plaintiffs have challenged the cuts by the postal service that may slow down election mail. We get deeply into the administrative law that governs the post office (fun!) and talk about whether we really know what's going on there. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at versustrumpp...
Can Trump Steal The Election?
October 06, 2020 15:46 - 49 minutes - 67.4 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss whether Trump can really "steal" the election, as some have started to worry about. They discuss Jason's piece here on the topic. Plus, they say goodbye to Justice Ginsburg. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Blurring Public and Private Conduct
September 17, 2020 18:41 - 44 minutes - 61.4 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss two new legal filings by the Trump DOJ that blur the line between the President as government official and the President as private citizen. In the first case, the government argues that the President's twitter feed is not an official public forum, so he can block people with whom he disagrees. In the second, the government argues that the President's denials that he sexually assaulted E. Jean Carroll were made in his official capacity a...
Trump Versus Mail Voting
August 25, 2020 00:25 - 43 minutes - 39.8 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss voting by mail in the pandemic. Have courts allowed the rules to be changed, either in responses to suits there should be more voting by mail—or less? You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Are Tax Returns Coming Soon?
July 18, 2020 19:51 - 52 minutes - 72.4 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss the Supreme Court's pair of decisions governing Trump's tax returns. Are they coming soon? Did the Democrats make a mistake in not being more aggressive in invoking the impeachment power? Find out! You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
On Flynn, Bolton, and Mary Trump
July 06, 2020 01:59 - 50 minutes - 68.8 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss the D.C. Circuit's extraordinary intervention in the Michael Flynn case, and then move on to two lawsuits seeking to block publication of books: John Bolton's and Mary Trump's. Note: after this podcast was recorded, an appellate court in New York reversed the injunction we discussed here. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our supe...
Easha's Back, To Talk Qualified Immunity and Police Reform
June 22, 2020 01:42 - 48 minutes - 66.8 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Easha Anand makes her triumphant return to talk qualified immunity and police reform. The trio talk about the proposal to reform qualified immunity and debate whether that will do much. They then break down other new legal innovations in the various proposals and ask: is it enough to create new grounds for people to sue? Or are other reforms more important? You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You ca...
The Military in the U.S. and Proxy Voting in the House
June 08, 2020 00:02 - 49 minutes - 68.5 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie take on two topics. First, what can the president legally do to use the military on American soil? Second, is it legal for the House of Representatives to vote by proxy, without being physically present in D.C., as alleged in a new lawsuit by House Republicans? You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/p...
What Will Happen To Michael Flynn?
May 24, 2020 16:45 - 46 minutes - 63.7 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss the extraordinary motion to dismiss Michael Flynn's criminal case. Does the DOJ's logic make sense? And what can Judge Sullivan do if he chooses not to dismiss the case? You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Can The Presidential Election Be Cancelled?
May 11, 2020 23:16 - 47 minutes - 65.7 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss the question of whether the upcoming election can be "cancelled" for political or pandemic reasons. They agree it'd be illegal...but does that mean it absolutely cannot happen? You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Are Churches Being Discriminated Against?
April 28, 2020 18:03 - 39 minutes - 53.6 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss claims by churches that stay-at-home orders violate their religious freedom. Turns out it can be a tough issue! You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Wisconsin Republicans Versus Elections
April 17, 2020 17:37 - 23 minutes - 32.4 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss last week's election in Wisconsin, include two rulings—one by the Wisconsin Supreme Court and one by the U.S. Supreme Court—that don't hold up very well in light of what occurred. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes The U.S. Supreme Court's opinion in RNC v. DNC is here. See acast.com/privacy for...
Trump vs. The Mainstream Media
April 02, 2020 23:51 - 36 minutes - 50 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss cases by the Trump campaign against the New York Times, CNN, and the Washington Post accusing each of these media organizations with defamation (sometimes also called libel). They have a bit of a laugh in explaining why the suits are frivolous, discuss whether the complaints are sanctionable, and debate whether the cases will have a major intimidating effect. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at versustr...
Should Detainees Be Released?
March 28, 2020 00:53 - 33 minutes - 45.6 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss a lawsuit in Seattle, Dawson v. Asher, requesting that several vulnerable people in immigration detention be released. They discuss the legal standard for detention, why detention centers are particularly dangerous places, and what courts will be balancing when they consider these requests for release. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods...
Should Democrats Try And Pack The Court?
March 19, 2020 10:01 - 42 minutes - 59 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason talks with Aaron Belkin and Matt Lehrich of Take Back The Court. They talk about Aaron's idea for the Democrats to add four seats to the U.S. Supreme Court in response to what he sees as two "stolen" seats. They get into the legality of this solution and the political and legal ramifications of such a proposal, including whether it would lead to a tit-for-tat from Republicans if they come back to power after this proposal has been adopted. You can find us ...
Lots To Discuss...
March 12, 2020 16:16 - 32 minutes - 44.1 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason cover a number of outstanding decisions and issues that they've missed over the last month. They begin with a discussion about a federal court's recent decision calling AG Barr's summary of the Mueller Report not credible, which led him to review the Mueller Report to see whether redactions were proper. They then also discuss a recent decision about Medicaid work requirements, the illegal appointment of the acting head of the USCIS, and then men...
Enforce Your Own Subpoena!
March 05, 2020 11:01 - 38 minutes - 53.1 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the D.C. Circuit's recent opinion holding that courts have no power to enforce subpoenas issued by the House. They discuss the opinion's rationale, whether it makes sense, and whether the House might—or should—take the court up on its offer to start jailing Trump Administration officials in their own brig. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other g...
State Immunity Under The VRA + Adios, Easha :(
February 13, 2020 16:56 - 40 minutes - 56.1 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss a dissenting opinion by a Trump-appointed judge arguing that states cannot be sued for violating the Voting Rights Act. They then say goodbye to Easha with a tribute to her thinking about Versus Trump law and litigation. We shall miss you, Easha. Talk soon?? You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes The ...
Was Impeachment Good or Bad?
February 06, 2020 11:01 - 49 minutes - 67.6 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss Jason's ongoing essays for the Take Care blog about whether impeachment was good or bad, net-positive or net-negative. This leads them to discuss whether the Democrats should have more aggressively pursued witnesses and whether this whole proceeding did much to vindicate the rule of law. They emerge with slightly revised opinions about this whole process. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at versustrumpp...
Vs. The Inaugural Committee, Plus Bolton Update
January 30, 2020 16:40 - 37 minutes - 51.9 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason look at a new lawsuit by D.C. claiming that Trump's inaugural committee overpaid for space at the Trump Hotel and thus "wasted" at least $1 million in charitable funds. Spoiler alert: the lawsuit seems convincing. They also discuss the latest developments in the Bolton saga. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. No...
Who Are The Presidential Electors?
January 25, 2020 16:49 - 46 minutes - 63.2 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Charlie and Easha take a deep dive into two recently granted Supreme Court cases that go to the heart of the systems that we use to elect the President. (We chose this week to cover this topic because our Fearless Leader, Jason, was unavailable and he is counsel on both cases.) The discussion takes us deep into questions of political accountability, free choice, and constitutional history. A classic Versus Trump cat's-away-mice-will-play episode chock full of fun...
Trump vs. The Equal Rights Amendment
January 16, 2020 11:01 - 53 minutes - 73.8 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason, Easha, and Charlie discuss the Trump Administration's new legal opinion regarding the legal status of the Equal Rights Amendment, also known as the ERA. They consider what will happen now that Virginia has become the 38th state to ratify the ERA since 1972. Is it too late, or can Congress do anything to add this amendment to the Constitution? Note that when this was recorded, Virginia was expected to ratify it shortly, and the State in fact ratified it jus...
Amazon vs. Trump
January 09, 2020 18:09 - 38 minutes - 53.5 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason, Easha, and Charlie consider a new lawsuit by Amazon, in which the company claims that it was illegally denied a $10 billion Pentagon contract because of President Trump's stated dislike of Amazon founder Jeff Bezos. And the return briefly to the question of Bolton's potential testimony at the Senate impeachment trial. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods wi...
The Senate As Impeachment Court
January 02, 2020 16:59 - 36 minutes - 50.7 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie dive deep into two impeachment-related questions. First, what is the formal role of the Senate in an impeachment trial, and what power does the Chief Justice have? (Hint: Senators have all the power; the Chief Justice has basically none.) Second, what did the House say in its impeachment report about why it chose not to go to court or otherwise force recalcitrant Administration officials to testify—and does it make sense? You can find us at @V...
Year-End Mailbag
December 29, 2019 16:31 - 46 minutes - 63.8 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie answer listener questions about impeachment, bribery, sanctions, and more! Thanks again for another great year. Remember to email any questions to [email protected] to be on the next mailbag. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Method or Madness
December 19, 2019 19:51 - 48 minutes - 66 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Easha and Charlie discuss the Trump Administration’s efforts to resume federal executions after a decade-and-a-half hiatus. We talk about the district court ruling enjoining those efforts, the Supreme Court’s decision to keep the executions on hold while litigation plays out (and a snippy concurrence from three of the justices), and why the whole concept of a federal death penalty is a little bizarre. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an ...
We're Famous! And There Are Articles
December 12, 2019 11:01 - 51 minutes - 70.2 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason, Charlie, and Easha respond to Rep. Matt Gaetz's shoutout to this podcast during the Judiciary Committee's impeachment hearings. They then discuss their reactions to the Democrats' strategy with their public hearings and articles of impeachment. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes A YouTube video of our show being men...
Two Guns Cases, And More
December 05, 2019 11:01 - 29 minutes - 40 MBFirst, real talk: yes, Versus Trump really did get a shoutout at the impeachment hearings on Wednesday! More on that next week, and there's a link to the exchange in the shownotes. We recorded this episode before that happened, but rest assured that we'll respond to the Committee next week. Meanwhile, on this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss two guns cases. First, we discuss a court's definitive rejection of the Trump Administration's bizarre decision to try to permit the onli...
What Is Bribery?
November 21, 2019 18:27 - 48 minutes - 66.2 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason, Charlie, and Easha discuss the definition of "bribery" for impeachment purposes, since Nancy Pelosi claimed that's what the evidence is showing at the impeachment hearings. They talk about how Congress and citizens should think about this notoriously slippery idea. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes The excellent La...
States vs. The Conscience Rule
November 14, 2019 11:01 - 50 minutes - 69.4 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason, Charlie, and Easha discuss a court's opinion vacating the Trump Administration's so-called "conscience rule." This rule would have broadly permitted many employees in the healthcare sector from in any way participating in procedures with which they have religious or moral disagreements—even in emergencies. The trio discuss the opinion, which is one of their favorites, and delve into a few of the many rationales for striking down the rule. You can find us ...
Sanctions Versus DeVos
November 08, 2019 11:01 - 17 minutes - 24.4 MBOn this week’s special edition of Uncle Charlie's Sanctions Corner–wait, we mean Versus Trump—Jason, Charlie, and Easha bring on Eileen Connor of the Project on Predatory Student to discuss a major opinion issuing sanctions against the Department of Education. They discuss the Department's egregious conduct that led to an unprecedented sanctions award of $100,000 to a class of plaintiffs that should have had their student loans cancelled, but did not. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on t...
The Coming Exec Privilege Showdown
November 06, 2019 00:38 - 50 minutes - 69.5 MB[Sorry for delayed posting!] On this week’s Versus Trump, Jason, Charlie, and Easha talk executive privilege. They outline the legal landscape of several hard questions in this area, like can the President completely prevent executive officials from testifying, and what role do the courts play here? They realize a showdown is coming but worry that there are no obvious answers. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-s...
A Real Impeachment Episode
October 24, 2019 10:01 - 35 minutes - 48.7 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie really talk impeachment. They answer two questions that have been debated in the media. First, does the full House need to vote to formally start impeachment proceedings? Second, does the President have a right, at this point in the investigation, to have his lawyers in the room to cross-examine witnesses or present opposing views? Listen for the answers! You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at versustrumppodcast@g...
Trump's No Good, Very Bad Day
October 17, 2019 23:56 - 35 minutes - 48.7 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Easha break down President Trump's bad day in court on Friday, October 11. On that day, he lost three different lawsuits: one on the "public charge" immigration rule, one on Congress's subpoena power, and one on border wall funding. Jason and Easha mostly talk about the "public charge" case and predict how that one might go before giving the highlights of the other two. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at versustrumppo...
Uncle Charlie's Comity Hour
October 10, 2019 07:01 - 39 minutes - 53.7 MBOn this week’s Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie discuss the major recent decision dismissing the President's attempt to block his accounting firm from turning over his tax returns to the Manhattan DA. The two talk about both aspects of the decision: first, whether a federal court should abstain from hearing this dispute out of respect for "comity" (hence the title); and second, whether the President is categorically immune from any amount of criminal process. They agree with the court in one ...
An Impeachment Primer
October 03, 2019 10:01 - 49 minutes - 68.5 MBGotcha, suckers! No impeachment dessert until you eat your immigration broccoli. On this week’s Versus Trump, Easha (back from parental leave!) and Charlie (just starting parental leave) discuss two immigration losses for the Trump administration. The first concerns Trump’s attempts to roll back court-ordered protections for migrant children; the second, Trump’s attempt to subject more immigrants to expedited removal. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at ve...
Can You Hear The Whistle Blowing?
September 26, 2019 00:47 - 42 minutes - 58.5 MBOn this week's episode of Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the legal stakes of the fight over what Trump said to the President of Ukraine and the related whistleblower complaint. A lot happened between when they recorded the episode and when it's being posted, but we still think it's a useful primer on the legal questions in this dispute. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our s...
What's Left of Asylum Law?
September 19, 2019 10:01 - 40 minutes - 36.9 MBOn this week's episode of Versus Trump, Charlie and Jason discuss the Supreme Court's recent action permitting the Trump Administration to enforce tough new restrictions on asylum eligibility for those who enter the U.S. at the southern border. They discuss the tough new policy, whether it's valid substantively or procedurally, and what might happen now. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods w...
Watch Out, Watch List
September 12, 2019 07:01 - 41 minutes - 56.7 MBOn this week's episode of Versus Trump, Charlie and guest-host Alexandra Brodsky discuss a recent opinion invalidating the FBI's terrorism watch-list. They discuss the implications of the opinion for the Trump administration (and beyond), the merits (and demerits) of the court's reasoning, and all sorts of other cool stuff, including how annoying it is when people think they're important enough to be spied on by the FBI. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at ...
Versus DeVos 2.0
September 05, 2019 10:01 - 42 minutes - 38.5 MBThis week on Versus Trump, Jason discusses the continuing illegal intransigence of the Department of Education, with Eileen Connor and Toby Merrill of Harvard's Project on Predatory Student Lending. Eileen and Toby explain how many students have a right to have their student loans cancelled because the for-profit schools they attended were fraudulent—but the Department of Education has illegally refused to process their cancellation applications for the entire duration of the Trump Administr...
Straight to the Supremes
August 29, 2019 10:01 - 34 minutes - 31.4 MBThis week on Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie are back from a hiatus, and they discuss why the Trump Administration has been going to straight to the Supreme Court with emergency requests so frequently. They use that question to delve into some of the themes we've seen from Versus Trump cases in the last few years. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes Ja...
We're Still Here! (Quick Update)
August 22, 2019 10:01 - 1 minute - 1.26 MBOkay, we're not gonna lie: we've been slacking this month. But we just wanted to let you know that we're still here and will be back with new episodes soon! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Trump v. Everyone Who Wants His Tax Returns
August 01, 2019 10:01 - 41 minutes - 38.1 MBThis week on Versus Trump, Jason and Charlie are back from a hiatus to discuss the President's lawsuit against New York State and the House Ways and Means Committee, both of whom—he says—may be conspiring to release his New York State tax returns. You can find us at @VersusTrumpPod on twitter, or send us an email at [email protected]. You can buy t-shirts and other goods with our super-cool logo here. Notes The docket in the Trump v. Ways and Means case is here. The latest on...