Episode 241: Tracy Hinds & Ashley Williams on Open Source Funding and Inequities

Guests
Tracy Hinds | Ashley Williams
Panelist
Richard Littauer
Show Notes
On today’s episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by guests, Tracy Hinds and Ashley Williams, to discuss the structural inequities and funding issues in open source. The episode delves deep into the misaligned incentives in the open source community, how regulatory and policy awareness is growing, and the potential for government regulations to create opportunities for open source maintainers. The conversation also covers the roles of various open source foundations, the impact of large corporations, and the need for more effective advocacy and compensation avenues for contributors. Tracy and Ashley announce their involvement in a working group focused on the European CRA legislation, aiming to bridge gaps between maintainers and policymakers. Press download now!
[00:02:22] Ashley responds to Richard’s comment about everything being “totally screwed” in open source, but also points out misaligned incentives. She discusses the economic challenges of open source, such as the failure of sustaining efforts and its broader economic impact.
[00:04:54] Richard mentions his other podcast “Open Source for Climate” which focuses
on leveraging open source technology to combat the climate crisis.
[00:06:10] There’s a discussion about potential regulatory and policy changes affecting open source, highlighting the need for a more equitable system. Ashley delves into economic theories relating to open source, particularly the concept of externalities and potential regulatory solutions, and upcoming regulations like the software bill of materials.
[00:10:05] Tracy stresses the importance of involving open source maintainers in policy discussions to avoid misrepresentation by larger organizations alone.
[00:11:47] Richard and Ashley discuss the representations of open source interests in policy making, particularly the dominance of large companies and the potential exclusion of individual maintainers.
[00:16:04] Ashley critiques many language-based foundations for their minimal contribution to ecosystem, using Node Foundation as an example of one that has been beneficial due to its library ecosystem, notably NPM.
[00:17:35] Tracy acknowledges the efforts of the Python Software Foundation (PSF) and Open Collective in fostering ecosystems that support paid contributors, emphasizing the importance of these roles for sustainability.
[00:19:50] Richard notes that while centralized support like AWS services vouchers are helpful, these foundations do not effectively facilitate crucial conversations between maintainers and governments regarding open source regulation and standardization.
[00:21:52] Ashley reflects on her experience as the Individual Membership Director at the Node Foundation, discussing the challenges of representing a diverse community within open source projects and foundations.
[00:24:45] Tracy mentions her role as the first community seat director on the board, highlighting the evolution and ongoing adjustments in community representation within foundation governance. Also, she discusses the importance of involving individual maintainers in regulatory discussions.
[00:27:47] Tracy talks about the economic opportunities in open source, facilitated by platforms like GitHub Sponsors and Patreon, which help reduce barriers for maintainers seeking financial support for their projects.
[00:29:20] Ashley puts a small spin on Tracy’s optimistic view, noting significant opposition to the empowerment of small open source businesses, primarily due to corporate-dominated structures and antitrust-friendly environments in tech. She argues that open source has been consolidating.
[00:33:29] Ashley fills us in on where you can follow her and their future discussions. She mentions a working group at the Eclipse Foundation focusing on CRA legislation, announcing an initiative to gather maintainer feedback on this legislation through a reading group.
[00:35:42] Tracy mentions where you can find her online.
Quotes
[00:03:30] “We have open source – people who maintain open source don’t really make a lot of money from it. Attempts to sustain open source have largely failed.”
[00:06:24] “Every OSS hacker is also incentivized to be a lawyer.”
Spotlight
[00:36:32] Richard’s spotlight is Jingna Zhang and her new social network, Cara.
[00:37:25] Tracy’s spotlight is the book, Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software.
[00:38:09] Ashley’s spotlight is exercising for mental health.
Links
SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/)
SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/)
[email protected] (email) (mailto:[email protected])
[email protected] (email) (mailto:[email protected])
SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss)
Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss)
Richard Littauer Socials (https://www.burntfen.com/2023-05-30/socials)
Tracy Hinds X/Twitter (https://x.com/hackygolucky?lang=en)
Tracy Hinds Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@hackygolucky)
Sustain Podcast-Episode 135 featuring Tracy Hinds (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/hinds)
Ashley Williams Twitter (https://x.com/ag_dubs)
Ashley Williams LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygwilliams/)
Sustain Podcast-Episode 145 featuring Ashley Williams (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/williams)
Open Source Initiative (https://opensource.org/)
OSS for Climate Podcast (https://ossforclimate.sustainoss.org/)
Eclipse Foundation (https://www.eclipse.org/org/foundation/)
Jingna Zhang (https://www.zhangjingna.com/)
Cara (https://cara.app/login)
Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal (https://www.amazon.com/Working-Public-Making-Maintenance-Software/dp/0578675862)
Sustain Podcast-Episode 51 featuring Nadia Eghbal (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/nadia)
Credits
Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/)
Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/)
Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Ashley Williams and Tracy Hinds.

Guests

Tracy Hinds | Ashley Williams

Panelist

Richard Littauer

Show Notes

On today’s episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by guests, Tracy Hinds and Ashley Williams, to discuss the structural inequities and funding issues in open source. The episode delves deep into the misaligned incentives in the open source community, how regulatory and policy awareness is growing, and the potential for government regulations to create opportunities for open source maintainers. The conversation also covers the roles of various open source foundations, the impact of large corporations, and the need for more effective advocacy and compensation avenues for contributors. Tracy and Ashley announce their involvement in a working group focused on the European CRA legislation, aiming to bridge gaps between maintainers and policymakers. Press download now!

[00:02:22] Ashley responds to Richard’s comment about everything being “totally screwed” in open source, but also points out misaligned incentives. She discusses the economic challenges of open source, such as the failure of sustaining efforts and its broader economic impact.

[00:04:54] Richard mentions his other podcast “Open Source for Climate” which focuses

on leveraging open source technology to combat the climate crisis.

[00:06:10] There’s a discussion about potential regulatory and policy changes affecting open source, highlighting the need for a more equitable system. Ashley delves into economic theories relating to open source, particularly the concept of externalities and potential regulatory solutions, and upcoming regulations like the software bill of materials.

[00:10:05] Tracy stresses the importance of involving open source maintainers in policy discussions to avoid misrepresentation by larger organizations alone.

[00:11:47] Richard and Ashley discuss the representations of open source interests in policy making, particularly the dominance of large companies and the potential exclusion of individual maintainers.

[00:16:04] Ashley critiques many language-based foundations for their minimal contribution to ecosystem, using Node Foundation as an example of one that has been beneficial due to its library ecosystem, notably NPM.

[00:17:35] Tracy acknowledges the efforts of the Python Software Foundation (PSF) and Open Collective in fostering ecosystems that support paid contributors, emphasizing the importance of these roles for sustainability.

[00:19:50] Richard notes that while centralized support like AWS services vouchers are helpful, these foundations do not effectively facilitate crucial conversations between maintainers and governments regarding open source regulation and standardization.

[00:21:52] Ashley reflects on her experience as the Individual Membership Director at the Node Foundation, discussing the challenges of representing a diverse community within open source projects and foundations.

[00:24:45] Tracy mentions her role as the first community seat director on the board, highlighting the evolution and ongoing adjustments in community representation within foundation governance. Also, she discusses the importance of involving individual maintainers in regulatory discussions.

[00:27:47] Tracy talks about the economic opportunities in open source, facilitated by platforms like GitHub Sponsors and Patreon, which help reduce barriers for maintainers seeking financial support for their projects.

[00:29:20] Ashley puts a small spin on Tracy’s optimistic view, noting significant opposition to the empowerment of small open source businesses, primarily due to corporate-dominated structures and antitrust-friendly environments in tech. She argues that open source has been consolidating.

[00:33:29] Ashley fills us in on where you can follow her and their future discussions. She mentions a working group at the Eclipse Foundation focusing on CRA legislation, announcing an initiative to gather maintainer feedback on this legislation through a reading group.

[00:35:42] Tracy mentions where you can find her online.

Quotes

[00:03:30] “We have open source – people who maintain open source don’t really make a lot of money from it. Attempts to sustain open source have largely failed.”

[00:06:24] “Every OSS hacker is also incentivized to be a lawyer.”

Spotlight

[00:36:32] Richard’s spotlight is Jingna Zhang and her new social network, Cara.
[00:37:25] Tracy’s spotlight is the book, Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software.
[00:38:09] Ashley’s spotlight is exercising for mental health.

Links

SustainOSS
SustainOSS Discourse
[email protected] (email)
[email protected] (email)
SustainOSS Mastodon
Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute)
Richard Littauer Socials
Tracy Hinds X/Twitter
Tracy Hinds Mastodon
Sustain Podcast-Episode 135 featuring Tracy Hinds
Ashley Williams Twitter
Ashley Williams LinkedIn
Sustain Podcast-Episode 145 featuring Ashley Williams
Open Source Initiative
OSS for Climate Podcast
Eclipse Foundation
Jingna Zhang
Cara
Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal
Sustain Podcast-Episode 51 featuring Nadia Eghbal

Credits

Produced by Richard Littauer
Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound
Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound

Special Guests: Ashley Williams and Tracy Hinds.

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