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Saints Unscripted Audio

560 episodes - English - Latest episode: 4 days ago - ★★★★★ - 25 ratings

Saints Unscripted is a show with faithful, hilarious Mormons with different opinions on being Mormon.

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Episodes

What we learned about the LDS Temple | with Julie and Aaron

February 27, 2024 18:00 - 15 minutes - 35.5 MB

Julie and Aaron Bujnowski joined us on Saints Unscripted to share their most recent project and one that has already impacted many people. During the pandemic of 2020, Julie and Aaron began writing down their experiences and feelings pertaining to the Latter-day Saint temple. They were eventually prompted to share their written thoughts with the world through a published book. In their book, they share their many temple insights and how each of us can gain more perspective and love as we stu...

I KNEW the Book of Mormon was true | Lauren's Conversion

February 20, 2024 18:00 - 19 minutes - 45.5 MB

In this episode we are joined by the brilliant and kind Lauren Cassidy! Lauren moved to Utah from New York just a few years ago after she converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church). Lauren joins us to share her conversion story. Lauren grew up knowing about God and did her best to live a good life. However, she wasn't praying to God and wasn't quite sure where religion would fit into her life. During her sophomore year in college, La...

Reacting to Johnny Harris The REAL Story of the Mormon Church

February 13, 2024 18:00 - 57 minutes - 132 MB

Johnny Harris, YouTuber and independent journalist, recently made a video titled "The REAL Story of the Mormon Church." But what do active Mormons (correctly known as Latter-day Saints) think about his video? Does the video portray the real story of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or are there incorrect portrayals of the history of the Mormon Church? Was Joseph Smith a fraud? Are the origins of the Book of Mormon a complete hoax? In this episode, David Snell watches the video...

The craziest Mormon mission stories!!

February 06, 2024 18:00 - 9 minutes - 22.7 MB

Everyone who has served a mission has a crazy story about their mission. Well, we recently came across an article that claimed to have some of the craziest mission stories ever! We wanted to put the stories to the test to see if they really were as crazy as they claimed to be. We’d love to know what you think about these mission stories :) Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are accustomed to seeing 19 and 20 year old men and women leave to different parts of the wor...

My non-member mom knew I needed the LDS Church! | with Levi

January 30, 2024 18:00 - 33 minutes - 76.1 MB

Levi shares his story of growing up with lots of exposure to religion. He realized in high school that based on his life trajectory, he wouldn’t make it past 21 years of age. He decided it was time to look into religion because he became concerned about the afterlife. One night, Levi asked God to send religion to him. The next morning he heard a knock on the door. He began talking with the Jehovah Witnesses for 6 months but became frustrated. Due to some unfortunate experiences, Levi decid...

First accurate photo of Joseph Smith, the LDS prophet?! | with Curtis Weber

January 23, 2024 18:00 - 16 minutes - 38.2 MB

Have you seen the latest photo of Joseph Smith?! If so, you probably have a lot of questions (as did we!). We brought Curtis Weber to the show to talk about his extensive research on the subject and his research is fascinating! Thanks so much for joining us, Curtis!

I removed my records from the LDS Church…. And came back! | with Tyler

January 16, 2024 18:00 - 13 minutes - 12.5 MB

Today we are joined by Tyler Gordon, one of the kindest people we have had on the show. We chatted with Tyler before this episode about his experiences and the spirit he brought with him was powerful and humble. We are so grateful for his vulnerability in sharing his story! Tyler grew up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He served a mission faithfully and “checked the boxes.” Upon his return home, he was quickly exposed to anti-Mormon content and quickly lost his faith as...

The TRUTH about the Mormon pioneers

January 09, 2024 18:00 - 7 minutes - 16.5 MB

Have you ever heard of Pioneer Day, an official holiday in Utah? Many Utahans celebrate the day that Mormon pioneers arrived in Utah before Utah was settled. Many pioneers died on the trek across the plains, though many miracles took place on their journey to Utah. In this episode, we take a quiz to test our knowledge about the Mormon pioneers!

I was excommunicated then re-baptized in the LDS Church | with Elizabeth

January 02, 2024 18:00 - 20 minutes - 47.7 MB

Elizabeth joins us today to share her remarkable story of faith, conversion, excommunication, and regaining her faith. If you watch any Saints Unscripted episode, this is the one to watch!! Elizabeth powerfully shares how she grew up in unfavorable circumstances but remained strong in the faith. Unfortunately, poor relationships and temptations grew and grew until she found herself about to lose her membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormo...

My LDS baptism interview was a lie | with Kahlen

December 29, 2023 18:00 - 20 minutes - 45.9 MB

We recently had the privilege of hearing Kahlen's story of faith and forgiveness. Today we share his story with you and know you'll find strength from his words! Kahlen grew up in Utah as a non-member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church). He joined the church with help from his friend but quickly left after joining. He joined the Marines and experienced many mental health challenges. He talks about a particular event in which he wasn't sur...

Tell us how you really feel about Saints Unscripted | Responding to Comments, Pt 13

December 26, 2023 18:00 - 19 minutes - 44.8 MB

We love seeing your comments on our YouTube videos, Instagram stories, Facebook posts, and TikTok account! Some of you are kind, some of you are savage, and some of you might just be here to troll -- but we love you for being here and hope we bring some happiness to your day! In this episode, we read some of your comments and respond completely unscripted!

The truth about the Book of Abraham | with Kerry Muhlestein

December 22, 2023 18:00 - 11 minutes - 25.7 MB

We are elated to hear from Kerry Muhlestein on our channel today! Kerry is an incredible scholar with a great sense of humor. We had a blast hearing from him about the controversial Book of Abraham. Here are some things Kerry addresses in this video: What are some of the most common/ most problematic assumptions that Latter-day Saints and/or non-Latter-day Saints are making (or have made, historically) about the history of the Book of Abraham? What tips can you give us and our viewers ...

Can I feel the Holy Ghost?

December 19, 2023 18:00 - 10 minutes - 23 MB

Have you ever felt the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit? Have you ever wondered what feeling the spirit might feel like? Can I feel the Holy Ghost if I'm not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ (otherwise known as the Mormon Church)? In this episode, we talk about what it's like to feel the Holy Ghost, how the gift of the Holy Ghost differs from the Holy Ghost, and we read responses from our Instagram audience about their thoughts on the Holy Ghost. Let us know what you learned in the commen...

Is the Book of Abraham authentic?? | with Stephen Smoot

December 15, 2023 18:00 - 18 minutes - 43.2 MB

We are elated to have our good friend Stephen Smoot back on Saints Unscripted! Stephen Smoot is one of our favorite scholars (and will soon be yours as well :)). In this episode, we ask Stephen about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, where to start when trying to understand the facsimiles in the Book of Abraham, and what Stephen has learned from his in-depth study of the Book of Abraham. Stephen discusses the myths and misconceptions about the Book of Abraham. If you have had ques...

Attending 100+ churches, this is what I think of Mormonism | with David Boice

December 12, 2023 18:00 - 25 minutes - 57.8 MB

We are stoked to have a conversation with David Boice on the show today! David is the host of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks and today he tells us his story of faith and adventure. David talks about having a falling out with his church and decided to distance himself from churches to focus primarily on spirituality. However, he had a prompting to attend 52 churches in 52 weeks. David says that through his experience of attending different churches, he was humbled to learn how many differences the...

I met a cowboy on an airplane and my life changed | Michelle's Story

December 08, 2023 18:00 - 26 minutes - 61.3 MB

Michelle's story is one of our favorite stories. Michelle had a great interest in spirituality and religion. She moved to Idaho to learn more about religion and quickly ran into lots of information about Mormons (known as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Fast forward a little while and Michelle found herself on an airplane sitting next to a cowboy named Merlin. The two instantly had a connection. After their flight, they stayed in communication and Michelle quickl...

What is a LDS priesthood blessing? | with Spencer

December 05, 2023 18:00 - 12 minutes - 27.9 MB

Have you ever had questions about LDS priesthood blessings? How does someone with priesthood authority give a blessing? How does a priesthood holder know what to say when giving a blessing? Spencer joins us today to share some powerful findings about priesthood blessings. Spencer conducted over 100 interviews with men who have given priesthood blessings with the purpose of learning more about how the words come to them, how they feel during the blessing, and how the receiver receives the ble...

Try not to laugh challenge | Dad Jokes edition

December 01, 2023 17:00 - 10 minutes - 23.6 MB

*originally posted on YouTube near Father's Day* We LOVE the good dads in our lives! We are grateful for Father’s Day each year which gives us extra reason to celebrate the father figures in our lives. In this episode, we celebrate dads by sharing our favorite “dad jokes.” Each host shares a joke to the other host in hopes of generating a good ol’ Father’s Day belly laugh. Are the dad jokes good enough to crack the hosts? Let’s see how many laughs we can get! Did you laugh at any of the...

Evolution Is NOT Evil

November 28, 2023 17:00 - 16 minutes - 38.9 MB

We are incredibly grateful for the knowledge and insight of Heath Odgen on our show today as he discusses the importace of embracing science as faithful members of the LDS Church (otherwise kwown as the Mormon Church). Heath discusses his interest in evolution and how he reconciles evolution and the theory of Adam and Eve. The theory of evolution doesn't have to contradict believe in the story of Adam and Eve but that both can be supported by each other. Do Mormons believe in evolution? Shou...

Was Joseph Smith actually a polygamist?? | with Brian Hales

November 24, 2023 17:00 - 46 minutes - 106 MB

For many decades, there has been speculation that Joseph Smith (first prophet of the LDS Church) did not practice polygamy. The speculation has ebbed and flowed over the years, though the conspiracy has picked up steam more recently. LDS scholar and friend of Saints Unscripted, Brian Hales, agreed to address the controversy on today’s episode. Brian addresses accounts of polygamy, how different types of scholars navigate history, and how to address specific claims made against Joseph Smith...

Crime family, prison, and joining the LDS Church | with Derek Galanis

November 21, 2023 17:00 - 23 minutes - 54.1 MB

Derek and Denise Galanis join us on Saints Unscripted to talk about Derek's conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Derek grew up in a family of crime. Prison and crime were natural parts of his formative years. Derek was convicted in 2001 and then again in 2016 for fraud. Derek talks about reconnecting with Denise, someone he had known earlier in his life, while he was in prison. He and Denise stayed in contact while Derek served his time in some harsh prison conditions. Derek read the Bi...

I promised God I would accept the truth if He led me | with Emma

November 17, 2023 18:00 - 28 minutes - 65.4 MB

Emma Wood is a remarkable new convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! We had the great opportunity of hearing her conversion story. Growing up in Arizona, she knew about members of the LDS Church (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) but didn't have much interest in joining. She decided to go to school in Utah where she began learning more about the Church. She went through some challenging faith crises and had many, many questions about this emerging faith. After years ...

AI and the gospel of Jesus Christ?! | with Ross Richey

November 14, 2023 19:22 - 15 minutes - 35.1 MB

Ross Richey joins us today to talk about one of the most interesting topics we’ve heard from a guest on Saints Unscripted. He starts with a discussion about ChatGPT and AI. What does that have to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, Ross focuses on intelligence, something frequently talked about in our scriptures and in our church. David and Sabrina have a moment of expressing their fears about intelligences 😅 and how things might change in our world. Ross then talks about Abraham 3 ...

Calling our moms and thanking them 😭♥️

November 07, 2023 18:00 - 11 minutes - 26.6 MB

*This was released on YouTube around Mother's Day* Today the hosts had NO IDEA what the outline of the episode would be… truly unscripted. They knew the theme would be Mother’s Day but nothing more. We surprised them by having them call a mother figure (in this case, they each chose their mom) and expressing their appreciation for a lesson they were taught by that mother. Kaitlyn talks about her mom’s ability to be calm and steady for her and for everyone around her. Cam talks about his mom...

Hope: The best thing you can give another person | with Talmage

November 03, 2023 17:00 - 19 minutes - 43.8 MB

Talmage served mission for the Church of Jesus Christ (otherwise known as the Mormon Church). Upon his return, Talmage faced a lot of challenges including addiction and pornography issues. He felt worthless and purposeless. However, his family was never going to give up on him, no matter how low he felt. With their faith, he began a long healing process which led him to start an incredible podcast. He talks about what he has learned from the podcast, how he navigates criticism, and how other...

The beautiful parallels of faith and intellect | with Terryl Givens

October 31, 2023 17:00 - 37 minutes - 86.2 MB

Filming this episode with Terryl Givens was both humbling and remarkable. Terryl Givens is a leading LDS academic who has written some of our favorite books on many religious topics. Today, Terryl talks about his book, Let’s Talk About Faith and Intellect. Prior to filming this episode, we noted our favorite quotes from his book and asked him to expound on the quotes mentioned. He addresses many topics including the following: - The issue with social media and religion - How people beco...

From being raised polygamist to joining the LDS Church! | Liz's Story

October 27, 2023 17:00 - 25 minutes - 57.7 MB

On today’s episode, Liz shares her story of growing up in a polygamist family. She and her family moved into a neighborhood of non-polygamists and were quickly judged for their beliefs. But one of the families in the neighborhood truly embraced Liz and her family despite differing beliefs. Liz and her siblings would attend church with this kind-hearted family and Liz eventually wanted to be baptized into their religion- the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (who do not practice pol...

How LDS members should treat those who leave | with Brooklyn

October 24, 2023 17:00 - 22 minutes - 51.5 MB

Brooklyn was raised in the Church of Jesus Christ (otherwise known as the Mormon Church). She has fond memories of her childhood, though recognizes how many things could have been experienced more positively. Today she shares how she eventually learned some difficult church history and had poor experiences with church leaders, She felt the need to separate herself from the church which would come with repercussions. Brooklyn talks about how she wishes she was treated by members of the church...

The importance of faith in family units | with David

October 20, 2023 17:00 - 21 minutes - 50.1 MB

Dave Dollahite, a good friend of Saints Unscripted, joins us today to talk about his most recent scholarly project, the American Families of Faith Project. David, along with his colleague Loren Marks, have conducted extensive research in the field of families of faith. Their research includes the study of many different families of different religions. Today on Saints Unscripted, Dave specifically answers questions about raising a family in faith, exposing children to different religions, an...

Implicit Contexts in the Scriptures | with Ben Spackman

October 17, 2023 17:00 - 32 minutes - 74.6 MB

Ben recently joined us to talk about the nature of revelation in the church and has retuned to share some additional gems with us!! Today Ben joins us to talk about implicit context in scriptures. Ben, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ (otherwise known as the LDS Church) and a historian, shares his thoughts about the importance of understanding content in order to understand context. He discusses how understanding content grants us increased access to the implicit context of the scriptu...

The best LDS conversion story :) | with Charles

October 13, 2023 17:00 - 12 minutes - 28.2 MB

Charles knew he had the very best conversion story so he reached out to share with our Saints Unscripted family!! Charles didn't grow up in the church and was actually cautioned from joining the church when he announced his decision to move to Utah. He wasn't planning on joining any religion but quickly began learning more about the gospel and finding friendship in the church. He felt humbled that God would care so much about the details of his life and he found himself seeking Jesus Christ ...

The nature of revelation in the Church | with Ben Spackman

October 10, 2023 17:00 - 37 minutes - 86.1 MB

Ben talks about starting with assumptions. He says, “The positions we take follow from the assumptions we make.” Often when we tweak our assumptions first, we’re able to address difficult information with greater understanding. He talks about how we interpret “what scripture says” based on many assumptions, a few of which we would do well to remove or reevaluate. Ben illustrates examples from the Bible and discusses how we might improve our study of scripture and of revelation by focusing on...

How do I know when I have fully repented?

October 03, 2023 17:00 - 26 minutes - 60.3 MB

How do I know if I have fully repented? How do I know if God has forgiven me of my sins? In this episode, David and Allex share their thoughts on repentance and about the process of forgiveness. While this topic is complex, we share a basic overview and hope it provides some clarity. But please research do some additional research on your own, as needed!!

Alternate reality LDS sermons?! | General Conference Recap April 2023

September 29, 2023 17:00 - 9 minutes - 22.1 MB

Every April and October, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) holds a conference meant for the entire world! The conference is known as General Conference and is cherished by many members of the Church, as it is a time when the prophets and other authorities of the Church share sermons and give prayers. In this episode, we give a recap of our favorite sermons from the General Conference held in April of 2023.

On my way to joining the Latter-day Saints! | with Nicole

September 25, 2023 17:00 - 22 minutes - 20.9 MB

Nicole grew up in Northern Ireland and was raised in the protestant faith. She was discouraged from engaging with people of the catholic faith, as their beliefs contrasted the beliefs she was taught. But she quickly learned that there was goodness everywhere. Around 12 years old, Nicole stopped attending church and prayed infrequently. At age 15, she began to pray more frequently as she was being exposed to many religions but she wasn’t ready to attend any one organized religion. Nicole had ...

Did I make the wrong decision in joining the Church?? | with Stephen, PART TWO!

September 22, 2023 17:00 - 25 minutes - 23.5 MB

In this episode, Stephen continues to share his story of leaving the Church of Jesus Christ, determining not to return the Church, and then coming back to the Church. In this episode, he talks about meeting his wife and going through quarantine with an additional faith crisis. His obstacles didn't end with his renewed faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. 

The ULTIMATE General Conference quiz!!

September 19, 2023 17:00 - 8 minutes - 19.5 MB

Every 6 months (usually the first weekends in April and October), the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) holds a conference for the entire world. It is broadcast all over the internet and accessible to anyone who can access YouTube and LDS.org. In this episode, a host attempts to guess a word written on each card as described by the other host. The words are all General Conference themed! While this episode was meant to be light-hearted, I thin...

Ordained pastor converts to the Latter-day Saint Church | with Antonio

September 15, 2023 17:00 - 16 minutes - 38.5 MB

Antonio Movil was 17 years old when he started having a deep interest in learning about christianity. He decided to start studying theology. During his studies, he was required to study about different religions, including about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church). He read about the basic doctrine but didn't have much personal experience with members of the Church... until he met a couple at the grocery store! He didn't think much of the enc...

What I learned about my religion from Native Americans | Christopher's Story

September 12, 2023 17:00 - 21 minutes - 48.2 MB

Christopher joins us to share his story as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) and to give some fascinating insight into his mission. Christopher talks about his formative years in the church and how he came across anti-Mormon material on YouTube very early in his life. He quickly learned some things that made him truly question his beliefs. But with a firm desire to serve a mission, he continued going to church and was called to serve in Farmington,...

Finding my way back to Church | Kempton's Story

September 05, 2023 17:00 - 19 minutes - 44.3 MB

Kempton talks about his formative years being distant from the LDS Church, despite much of his extended family having deep roots in the Church. While he was drawn to spiritual things, he wasn't consistently taught about gospel principles. It wasn't until recently that Kempton witnessed a miracle. After praying for a miracle, missionaries stopped by his house and left a note. Kempton knew he couldn't pass up the opportuntiy to learn more about the gospel. He has been on the route to fully in...

Why did I stop going to church? | Jett's Story

September 01, 2023 17:00 - 20 minutes - 46.3 MB

We are so grateful to hear Jett's story on Saints Unscripted today! Jett was raised in Utah but didn't join the LDS Church (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) until 2014. He had an interesting upbringing and had many difficulties that contributed to his general disinterest in the Church. One day, he went to his friend's sealing in a LDS temple but was unable to enter the temple with his expired temple recommend. This experience prompted him to question his decisions and why he had chosen ...

From atheist to believer to BISHOP! | Shane's Conversion

August 30, 2023 17:00 - 21 minutes - 49.9 MB

We say this often but this conversion story TRULY is one of our favorite conversion stories! Shane grew up being taught very little about God, though he knew some basics from school. He eventually found a path in life that wasn't leading him to much happiness. He felt lost and confused when one day, he met some LDS missionaries at a bus stop. The missionaries began cracking jokes and casually talking to Shane. They got his phone number, address, and set up an appointment to meet with him. Sh...

A Mormon conversation with an Evangelical! | with Steve Pynakker

August 29, 2023 20:41 - 26 minutes - 60.3 MB

Our faith is often attacked by those outside of our faith. Members of other religions often have no issue calling "the Mormon Church" a cult. BUT Steve is not one of those people. While he isn't a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and has no interest in joining the church, his respect for our beliefs is incredible. He is well-studied and has read the Book of Mormon with an open heart. He gives Latter-day Saints the opportunity to defend their beliefs and to share, without criticism, their...

I had to leave my LDS mission | Alayna's Story

August 29, 2023 17:00 - 25 minutes - 58.4 MB

Today we are elated to hear Alayna's mission story! And no, this isn't just another LDS missionary story... this story is unlike any mission story you've heard. Alayna always knew she would serve a mission AND she always knew she would be called to Spain. When she received her call, that is exactly where she was assigned! She was ready to embark on her new journey but, like many of us, didn't expect the world to be turned upside down when COVID-19 hit. She shares the big changes in mission l...

I left the LDS Church and promised to never return... until this happened | with Stephen

August 15, 2023 17:00 - 36 minutes - 83.5 MB

Stephen, host of Mormonism with the Murph, joins us today to share his conversion story as someone who was raised in the Church. He lived a very normal "Mormon" life growing up but when he was 14 years old, he was going through some challenges. The missionaries prompted him to look more closely at his spiritual life, after which he truly began to gain a testimony of Jesus Christ. He served a mission in Canada and thrived as a missionary. When he returned home, he was still converted but bega...

From non-religious to LDS missionary | Jon's Story

August 11, 2023 17:00 - 27 minutes - 62.5 MB

Our new friend, Jon Trout, shares his powerful story of going from being non-religious to joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He shares some profound memories of learning about the LDS Church through a friend and curious about the teachings and beliefs. Jon was only 15 years old when he felt a yearning for God and truth. He attended church with his friend and knew that the feeling he felt was something he'd been craving. His new thoughts and decisions were taking him on ...

Why I left the Church and decided to come back | with Jensen

August 08, 2023 17:00 - 20 minutes - 19 MB

We are so inspired by the words and example of Jensen, our new friend and inspiration! Jensen had been a member of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the LDS Church) but slowly found herself distancing from the Church. She came to a point of feeling the necessity to remove her name from the church, meaning that she would no longer be a member of the Church and would need to be re-baptized if she decided to rejoin. After a series of difficult experiences, ...

The Coolest Woman in LDS History?!

August 01, 2023 17:00 - 10 minutes - 23.8 MB

Martha Hughes Cannon was an ICON in her day and should be celebrated today! Sabrina shares some highlights from the life of female LDS leader Martha Cannon. Martha was a successful doctor, mother, politician, writer, and leader. She dedicated her life to learning and to faith. She was a powerhouse in LDS leadership.

My journey to discovering Mormonism | with Zach

July 28, 2023 17:00 - 32 minutes - 30.3 MB

Zach Black, a new friend of Saints Unscripted, shares his story of discovering the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) and what it’s like to be in the midst of learning LDS teachings. Zach had many questions about theology after going through a very dark period of his life. He was hesitant about the LDS Church but began reading the Book of Mormon and found answers to his questions. He shares much about his spiritual journey and his hope to becom...

How having an open heart will change your life | Sequoia's Story

July 25, 2023 17:00 - 20 minutes - 46.2 MB

Sequoia knew very little about the LDS Church (otherwise known as the Mormon Church) in her growing up years. She had seen the Book of Mormon but never thought too deeply about it, though she always had a belief in God. Later on, Sequoia was browsing YouTube and learned about Saints Unscripted through a critic's channel. She found herself agreeing with the things that Saints Unscripted was sharing and decided she wanted to form her own opinion. Unfortunately, her curiosity spiked during the ...

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