Francesca and I talk a little about her role as my birth doula, but mostly about her work as an end-of-life doula and the pioneering end-of-life doula training program she helped create and directs through the University of Vermont Larner College of Medicine. We talk about her book, Cultivating the Doula Heart, how to find a place of unconditional positive regard for people in their end-of-life journey, the difficulty of knowing and enacting the authentic self, how embracing the doula heart is not just for doulas, but also for parents, teachers, lovers, community members...basically any human with compassion and a willingness to sit together in both joy and suffering.