Transform Thyself with Shingi Kanhukamwe

About the guest:

Shingi Kanhukamwe is an Executive Transformation Advisor working with Export Development Canada. He has 11 years of Agile experience and 9 years focused on leading transformation initiatives in large, complex organizations. He has worked at various financial organizations and has also worked as a consultant. 

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Transcript:

ADRIANA: Hey, y'all. Welcome to On-Call Me Maybe, the podcast about DevOps, SRE, observability principles, on-call, and everything in between. I am your host, Adriana Villela, with my awesome co-host...

ANA: Ana Margarita Medina.

ADRIANA: And today, we are talking to Shingi Kanhukamwe, who is an independent consultant working on organizational transformation. So, Shingi, welcome.

SHINGI: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

ADRIANA: First things first, important question. We start off for all of our guests; what are you drinking today?

SHINGI: I am drinking a kombucha, ginger-lemon kombucha.

ADRIANA: Ooh, awesome. Exotic, I like it. How about you, Ana?

ANA: I'm honestly always a huge fan of anything ginger. That's actually what I had for my breakfast caffeine which was like yerba mate with ginger tea. It was delicious. But for today's podcast recording, I'm on just regular H2O.

ADRIANA: I, too, am drinking water. I was for a previous recording drinking some green tea, but I ran out of that, so water it is.

SHINGI: Oldie but a goodie. [laughs]

ADRIANA: Exactly, can't go wrong with water. One question that we also like to ask our guests is, how did you get your start in tech?

SHINGI: Actually, growing up, I'd always been really interested in technology, so probably starting about the time I was 9 or 10, I got really interested in computers. And I spent so much time on my computer that my parents were getting worried about my future because [laughter] they're like, "You're spending too much time on this thing. Like, is there a future with these things?" To the point where they were just like, "Okay, we're not buying another computer because you just spend way too much time with this thing." 

So what that made me do was it made me try and squeeze as much performance out of the machine as possible. [laughter] So I would do all these things to kind of try and get the machine to run programs. Like, I'd boot the machine into DOS and load programs directly from there. But I also got more interested in kind of...I was kind of like, well, what can I do? Well, I can't change the hardware.

ANA: [laughs]

SHINGI: But what can I do from a software perspective? Like, what optimizations can I leverage to get more out of this computer? Because they're not buying me a new one. 

ADRIANA: [laughs]

SHINGI: And I actually got interested in terms of, like, oh, I can't buy a whole new computer, but can I buy certain parts? Like, if I borrow more RAM, like, is that going to help? 

ADRIANA: Ooh.

SHINGI: That's how I got interested in technology from a personal perspective. Weirdly enough, that didn't end up resulting in me studying computer science. But I did a lot of self-study from a networking perspective. So at one point, I was really interested in networking and just thinking about pursuing a career path. So yeah, the first job I got was actually a communications job working on Parliament Hill for a Member of Parliament. 

But a big part of the job was actually technology because I ran the website. And back in 2004, there was no content management, [laughter] well, not that there wasn't content management in the marketplace. There wasn't content management where I worked; let's be specific.

ADRIANA: Right. Right.

SHINGI: So it was this PHP monstrosity where -- [crosstalk 3:24]

ANA: [laughs]

ADRIANA: Oh wow.

SHINGI: You were liable to break stuff when you were just updating the content. That was super fun. So I think, like, yeah, in terms of my relationship to tech career-wise, it's always been like a theme. But I never actually ended up working as a developer or an engineer or somebody who's like in networking in hardware. It was always doing jobs that involved some degree of competency/technical literacy. 

So after that, my focus was kind of in the area of digital marketing more from the marketing technology side of things because, at that point in time, some exciting things were happening around marketing automation and what you can do with a modern content management system and analytics, and being able to do things based on triggers. 

After that, I started moving more into the organizational transformation space because I had the opportunity to be part of a project where we needed to move away from a very antiquated point-of-sale system with the organization I was working with at the time. So it was an insurance company. It sold products through brokers, but we were still using this green-screen IBM software. 

ADRIANA: Oh, geez. [laughs]

SHINGI: And there were like two customers left in Canada on it. And it got to a point where IBM was just like, "Listen, there are two customers on this platform. It just doesn't make sense for us to maintain it as a going concern for two customers. So you've got like nine months to figure things out before we sunset this." So the organization kind of freaked out because they'd never done anything in less than a year [laughs] from a technology standpoint. 

ADRIANA: Oh my God.

SHINGI: So no matter what the undertaking was, it just wasn't possible. The default answer was always one year plus. So everyone kind of freaked out. And this served as a bit of a catalyst to think differently about how we would approach this. So at that point in time, all of a sudden, people were bought into the idea of, like, well, why don't we try this agile thing in terms of how we approach this project? Because if we do this the normal way we do it, we know what's going to happen, and we can't afford for that to happen because it's our point of sale system. So that was a massive success. 

And then you would think the company would rethink how we structure our technology delivery capability and build on the lessons learned. That's not what happened. [laughter] We just went back to how we used to do things. [laughter] It was like, yeah, that was a one-off. It worked, and it was nice. And yeah, we went back to business as usual. But by that point in time, I was kind of puzzled because I was like, okay, so we tried something different. Clearly, it worked. And there's some value to thinking differently about how we do things from a technology delivery perspective. So why would we switch back to how we were doing things? 

Yeah, so I got a bit frustrated, and I left and started pursuing more work from a transformation perspective to be part of thinking differently about how we deliver technology solutions. What set of conditions makes for better outcomes? What sort of processes? What kind of context do you have to create around that? So that really became the area of interest for me. And that's kind of been the theme in terms of the type of work I've done ever since.

ADRIANA: Cool. That's awesome. Having done a lot of this tech transformation type of work, what do you see are some of the commonalities around this in terms of what are some of the common pitfalls that you see a lot of these large enterprises getting into? And what are some of the common successes as well?

SHINGI: One of the biggest pitfalls is thinking that it's all about getting off whatever our legacy technology is. It's all about getting off the mainframe, or it's all about getting on to the cloud. 

ADRIANA: [laughs]

ANA: It's true. 

SHINGI: So, yes, it's important for us to modernize the technology infrastructure, but the thing is, you have to realize that the technology infrastructure is kind of like an iceberg in the sense that it's reflective of a whole way of working, and the mindset, and organizational structure. So you can't just plug out whatever technology you've got and think that you can plug in the new stuff, and it's just going to work. You have to think about it more holistically. 

And usually, the other big thing, too, is that there's too much of a desire to be too aggressive out of the gate. So because the change is actually bigger than you think, it's better to kind of test the change in some small way in the organization to really understand what you're in for if you actually want to make an impact of the kind that you're looking for, typically, when people are talking about transformation.

ADRIANA: That's a really good point. And do you find usually when you're working in these types of transformations, like, what's the appetite from leadership? Are you typically working with leaders who are super gung-ho about this? Or are they kind of being voluntold by other leaders? Like, what's the climate like?

SHINGI: It varies. And it depends on what the narrative is around the transformation. So that's a big driver in terms of the behaviors that you're going to get and the context around it as well. Like, is it a new leader coming into the organization, and they're driving a certain kind of mandate? Or have we had something bad happen, and now we're really feeling the pain, and we need to make a change in terms of how we've been investing in our technology? So depending on what that context is, you get some very different patterns in terms of how things play out.

ADRIANA: So what's the bigger motivator? Is it the new leader who wants to, like, let's change things completely? [laughter] Or is it the organization who's like, okay, this ain't working; [laughs] we got to fix it?

SHINGI: Yeah, I think the new leader scenario is particularly challenging in the sense that obviously anybody who's coming to an organization as a new leader wants to show their value and put their stamp on things. But at the same time, there are reasons why those problems have persisted as long as they have. I remember one organization that I worked for had had several leaders come in and out, and it was always the same thing every time. It was like, oh yeah, we're finally going to get off mainframe. [laughter] That organization is still on mainframe today. 

ANA: Oh, my God. 

SHINGI: This conversation has been going on for like 30 years, [laughter] literally. 

ADRIANA: I don't think we'll ever rid ourselves of the mainframe. 

SHINGI: [laughs] And also, like, that's the other thing, too, is to think about what the actual aims are because do you need to really get rid of mainframe? Like, is that the issue? Mainframes are not terrible in and of themselves. I mean, it's a very reliable technology that, in a lot of organizations, has been highly optimized in terms of whatever they're having to do. 

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. That's true. 

SHINGI: It's not a foregone conclusion that, like, oh, if we just get rid of mainframes, all the problems will resolve.

ADRIANA: And if anything, there's a lot more complexity that's created around it. I've been in an organization where they were trying to modernize around the mainframe, so it's almost like they create a moat around the mainframes, what it feels like, where they, you know, new services come in, and they plug into, you know, they feed into the mainframe. And they create these whole levels of abstraction over the mainframe. And it's, I guess, in some ways, like trying to put lipstick on a pig [laughter] because no matter how hard you try, the mainframe is still there. [laughs]

SHINGI: Yeah, I mean, it's tough to actually plot a path out of the dependency because, typically, mainframes are running critical systems. So biting the bullet in terms of actually starting to shift workload away from mainframes is a big deal. And are you the one who wants to be on the hook [laughter] for actually making the switch in a real, meaningful way? Because if it goes wrong, it's on you.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's true. It's true. And there goes your reputation. [laughs]

SHINGI: Yeah. And the other thing, too, is the timeframe that's typically associated with moving away from that type of technology is usually pretty short because all of a sudden, someone or some group of people decided this is now THE thing to do. And it needs to get done yesterday because we're behind.

ANA: Always. [laughs]

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. It does feel like, in some ways, some of these deadlines are arbitrary. And then you got people scrambling for what seems to me like no good reason if they had just taken some time to understand the landscape. And I think these are some of the pitfalls that I've seen myself where a new leader comes in, and they're like, "We got to change all the things."

And then they don't take the time to talk to the people on the ground to see, okay, why is it that things are the way they are? They just want to make the change, and they want it yesterday like you said. And then I feel like that ultimately leads to their demise and the demise of the so-called transformation program. [laughs]

ANA: It's that idea of not doing the planning or prepping kind of like going in 100%. We're doing all this, but you never know why you're doing it. Is it really needed? Like, asking, I guess, meaningful questions.

SHINGI: Yeah. And kind of gauging what's realistic in terms of moving forward with the transformation objectives and balancing the risk because there's a huge amount of risk when you're moving off of mainframe infrastructure. It is typically running critical functions for an organization. And it's not that you can't get there. It's just, yeah, if you're going in with this idea that, oh, in a year, I'm going to make it happen and the five other people before me didn't know what they were doing, [laughter] you're about to be number six. [laughter]

ADRIANA: So true, so true.

ANA: I've definitely gotten the career advice of, like, oh, make sure to call people from that company who have left in the last three months before you join any organization just to find out what were really the hurdles when they were trying to push change, specifically within that infrastructure space and modernizing and digitalizing things or cloud-native transformation.

SHINGI: And the other thing, too, I would say, is, so there's one part around what you need to do from a technical perspective. There's a big part around the culture and the ways of working. So you need to actually move on a bunch of different dimensions simultaneously. Like, if you just are pushing purely from a technology perspective, you're not going to end up getting very far. Because, like I said, the technology itself exists in the context of the organization's culture. It exists in the context of the organization structures. It's entangled in terms of how the organization works. 

So if you're going to try and actually change things, you need to take a systems approach. Otherwise, you're going to, at best, you'll end up with these pockets where you've been able to do some things, and the rest of the organization is kind of doing things the way they've always been doing it. And it's an outlier. It's a source of friction because now you've got this dual operating system going on.

ADRIANA: Right, right. You've got the cool kids doing it the new way. And then the "old timers" quote, unquote, doing it the old way. [laughter] Why are these kids doing this newfangled thing? [laughter]

SHINGI: Actually, I've got a great story on that where one organization I worked with had that type of split. And the issue that it ended up creating was that so you bring in new technologies. You got new people doing things in a new way. You still have a dependency on the systems that exist in the rest of the legacy systems in the organization. And you still have to plug into processes that the organization has that exist. 

So what happened there was you kind of had this parallel operating system going on. And people came in and built stuff, did stuff, shipped code, and shipped product with enormous security holes in it that they would not have known to look for without having a better working relationship with the rest of the organization that had the knowledge around legacy systems. So, yeah, I think you end up incurring a lot of risk in that type of situation. Because it was like, oh, we know what we're doing. We're using the new stuff. You guys don't know anything. 

ANA: [laughs]

SHINGI: Don't worry; we got it. We don't need you. 

ADRIANA: [laughs]

SHINGI: So the other part of the organization was like, okay, fine. You guys know everything. You don't need us. I'm sure you can figure everything out.

ANA: [laughs]

ADRIANA: Oh, wow.

SHINGI: All of a sudden, we had an incident which cost the organization millions of dollars.

ANA: Ouchy. And that's the thing. Sometimes it has to get to that point for some organizations to realize a lot of things need to change. And it sucks that it has to get to that tipping point.

SHINGI: Yeah, it can't have this old versus new dynamic. That's pretty toxic from a transformation perspective.

ANA: [laughs] Old guard versus new guard, definitely. [laughs]

SHINGI: Yeah. And it's admittedly hard to navigate, right?

ADRIANA: Yeah.

SHINGI: Because there's some degree to which you have to start moving the organization in a different direction and building some different capabilities, doing things in different ways. But you also have to respect the existing culture and the heritage, and you have to have this transformation aspect of what's happening fit with the rest of the organization. And that's where, too, I think there's a piece where you're going to have to tackle some hard things in terms of what will happen eventually as an organization continues to transform because people's roles will change; jobs will change; the number of people you need doing certain things is going to change. 

Certain functions that you had used to create value won't necessarily create value anymore. Being really mindful of that and being transparent about that, I think, is really, really important. Because people are not stupid, like, people understand that as things change and evolve and as technology changes and evolves, that is going to change things, including the applicability of people's skills and the value of the role that they're in.

But I think if the organization is really transparent and supportive in the sense that they help people find the best outcome for themselves, whether it's upskilling, or moving to a different part of the org, or maybe you want to leave the org because you're not really interested in the direction that things are going in, that's an enormously important part of the equation because then creating that kind of safety and having that kind of transparency allows people who have been with the organization to work with newer people who are coming in and bringing new perspectives and new skills, and who are pushing different ways of working.

ADRIANA: That's really good advice because I've definitely seen that in certain organizations where you got a team that's been doing it this way for 20 years, and it's pretty cushy. So they want to keep doing it the same way. But the organization also has to, like, it just has to evolve because you just can't stay where you are. 

It's so hard to convince people who see what they have is an extremely stable job, very predictable. And, now, all of a sudden, you're telling them, "You must uproot everything you know about your job." And if you don't give them that safety net, that stability like you were saying, they can be very antagonistic and resistant to change, and then that can jeopardize your transformation no matter how well-intentioned.

SHINGI: Absolutely, because those people are in possession of really essential knowledge that you're going to need to draw on to actually move things from where they are to where you want them to be. You need them as active participants.

ANA: And it also brings to that point of psychological safety within the workplace that we talk a lot about on the podcast episodes to where it's like, you want to just make sure that your employees are being heard and that they're not in that sense of left to fend for themselves, that transparency aspect. It's like, we're in this together. We're going to learn together. We'll get through it. You're in this journey of inclusivity and belonging.

SHINGI: And let's be honest about it; all the outcomes are not necessarily going to be what people want. So I may not want my role to come to an end, but given where we're going, it will. So the question is, is there support for me to do something different? If I decide that I want to leave, is the organization going to be fair and generous? That being in place, so the psychological safety afforded by that type of transparency within an organization is essential. 

I really like the Netflix philosophy around we have different people in different times to lend their skills in different ways. And if we get to a point where we now need a different set of skills, like, it's not personal. It's just the organization has evolved. It needs something different. We respect what you've done for us. We value what you've done for us. We're going to treat you very fairly. 

So, yeah, I think that kind of philosophy is really important in terms of navigating these changes because the reality is there is, especially in any kind of significant change effort, there's going to be impact on people and how safe they feel is going to dramatically affect the transformation outcomes because you need those people to be on board, even if it sometimes results in them leaving the organization at some future point in time.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think on a similar vein; it reminds me of advice...I've read about the same advice in two different places where coming in and telling people, "You're doing it wrong," is just going to antagonize them rather than taking the time and asking the questions, "Well, why do you do it this way? Why not this way?" is a much gentler way and provides a lot more psychological safety [laughs] than coming in guns blazing like, "Y'all, suck. [laughter] Let's change this crap." Like, nobody wants to hear that. [laughter]

SHINGI: There's no greater trust destroyer than coming in and saying, "You were doing it wrong." [laughter] And honestly, the reality is that I mean, any one person that comes into the organization is a complex system. The amount that you don't know about the system versus what you do know, it's like you probably know, I don't know, like, 1% of whatever percent [laughs] versus what is unknown.

So there's a degree to which there has to be some humility because someone's coming in with whatever their experience is, and their skills, and their perspective. But I think the biggest thing that someone coming in with a transformation mandate can do is listen because there are reasons for everything. There are reasons why all the decisions have been made. There are reasons why certain things have not changed. There are reasons why certain opportunities have not been harnessed by the organization. 

So gaining a really good understanding of what those reasons are, and understanding that, and being able to lean into where you can harness the organization to focus on starting to change things is really key because it's not about coming in and doing stuff to the organization. It's about helping the organization focus on where we can start to change things and start to see the greatest benefit and how we can start to think a little bit differently, perhaps, than we did about what we can do or can't do.

ANA: That's true.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of some work that I'd done a few years ago where my team and I were trying to do some, you know, modernizing DevOps processes or even introduce DevOps to these various teams. And we were doing, like, we were working with each team individually. And then we realized, oh, crap, these are actually part of a bigger picture. 

And it wasn't until we understood the bigger picture that we were like, okay, we're approaching this in such a piecemeal way that there is no way that we can actually do right by the organization because there are all these other interactions that we're not even aware of. So all we were doing initially was maybe chipping away at part of the problem rather than looking at it from that holistic view. So, for me, that was a huge lesson learned. Like, take that time to understand the scenario that you're walking into, right? 

SHINGI: Yeah. I think taking that systems view of an organization is always going to be critical in terms of finding success with transformation. Because if you look at things narrowly in terms of, oh, I'm coming in, and I think I know what the problem is, or I'm coming in, and the problem is obvious, or I'm coming in, and we just need to do X.

ANA: I love that you brought it back to systems because that was actually what I have written down here as one of the questions. Like, what advice do you have specifically for technology leaders or just tech leads that are wanting to create a change but they don't know what those systems are or what those dimensions are? How do they go about it? Like, I know we know that culture is definitely one of them. But I think there's a lot more that goes into it that you can talk a little bit more about.

SHINGI: There's a piece around the organization's culture. There's a piece around the organization's processes. There's obviously whatever technology is actually in play. There's a really important piece around the political dynamics that exist and the power dynamics that exist in the organization as well. So it's actually looking at all those things and how they fit together to better understand where you have opportunities and how you can best leverage those opportunities.

Because sometimes, something may look obvious in terms of what the benefit would be from a purely analytical perspective. Like, you look at the technology. You look at the money, like, it all makes sense. But then, probably, there's this political dimension that you're missing. [laughs] And so even though everything makes sense on paper in terms of if we just did this, and here's the business case, and the money makes sense, well, yeah, there's this whole other dimension that you're not accounting for.

ANA: The politics can vary very, very much per company. Like, yeah, the size matters, but when you're in a toxic workplace, it brings out very different systematic issues within the organization.

SHINGI: And, honestly, in my view, politics is not a bad thing in and of itself. I mean, it really speaks to a process of how us as human beings figure out what we are thinking as a whole. That's what that whole dynamic is about. So it's actually essential because it's a big part of the mechanism in terms of aligning people's interests and getting them to feel like whatever is happening is meaningful for them in a way that matters. So yeah, you definitely ignore that at your own peril because that kind of political dimension creates buy-in. It creates alignment

ADRIANA: Mm-hmm. And it's probably, like, in some ways, more critical than the technology itself.

SHINGI: Yeah. Without that, you can try whatever you want to try. You can spend however much money you want to spend. You can push as many mandates as you want. But if you do not have the right people on board in the right way, it will not work. 

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

SHINGI: And there are always going to be people who are more influential in organizations than others. And it's not based on the org chart, by the way, like; that's the other thing that's really interesting. There are a lot of people in organizations that are influential that you would not necessarily know by looking at the org chart that these are key people within this ecosystem. And if we're going to kind of get any momentum with what we're doing here, these are people I need to make sure to win over or make sure to have as part of the equation.

ANA: That concept of like social capital, like, those are the movers. Those are the ones that could advocate or could actually totally block something from moving forward.

SHINGI: Yeah. And we've probably all experienced this, right? There are certain people that kind of have this type of influence in an organization where people are looking to them to see how they react before they decide how they're going to react.

ANA: And the silent looks. [laughs]

SHINGI: Yeah. And you've probably seen it in a physical environment, right? You can actually sometimes see it when people look over to a certain person to kind of get a read [laughter] of like, hey, how are you feeling about this thing? So depending on how their facial feedback is presented back from them, then they decide, okay, looks like you are feeling good about this, so I think I'm safe feeling good about it too. [laughter] Versus, oh, I don't think you like what is being said here at all, so I'm feeling very hostile.

ANA: That's very true.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. It all goes back to doing that research up front and understanding your key players, your key challenges.

SHINGI: Yeah, talk to people, understand what the organization already knows, understand the relationships, and understand the dynamics in terms of what's happened and why and the context in which decisions have been made.

ANA: When looking at some of the work that you've gotten a chance to do in your career, what have you found that has worked as far as bringing agile into an organization?

SHINGI: The most important thing is being clear on what the organization's outcomes are because Agile is an enabler. It's not a goal in and of itself. If the conversation you're having is like, we want to do agile because we want to be agile, that's the point at which I would now start to dig deeper to try and understand what are the actual outcomes? Because agile for agile sake doesn't buy you anything.

ANA: [laughs]

SHINGI: It's really about what the organization is looking to solve for, how it's looking to change, and the degree to which that agile toolkit can be of service. The way I think about it in my mind is like, if I call an electrician to my house, obviously, I'm having some kind of electrical problem. The electrician is going to be very knowledgeable in terms of how circuits work, and how electricity flows, and different things that can go wrong for different reasons. 

So the first thing I expect when they show up is not that they're going to start talking to me about how electricity works, and circuits, and all this stuff. Like, I'm expecting that they're going to ask me, "Okay, what issues are you having?" "Oh, the power keeps flickering in a certain part of my house." "Does it happen all the time? Does it only happen some of the time? Is it connected to other appliances being on in other parts of the house?" 

So they're coming in with a problem-solving mindset. They're trying to diagnose what the issue is, and they are working in the background through their knowledge base to think about, okay, based on what you're telling me, my hypothesis is it's this type of issue. Here's what I'm going to do. So after they actually diagnose the problem and solve it, then I may become interested in, like, oh, how did you know to think about that? Or how can I avoid this type of problem in the future? Or I'm just curious about how this works. 

But that will only happen after you solve my problem. If you come in and you start trying to educate me on how circuits, electricity, and wiring works, [laughter] I'm not interested because I have a problem. I need help with the problem. And you are not helping with my problem.

ANA: [laughs]

ADRIANA: Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. 

SHINGI: It feels like you're becoming another problem [laughter] in the sense that you are getting between me and someone who could be helping me with this problem. [laughs]

ANA: It's very true. 

SHINGI: So, similarly, I think if you're coming in to consult from an agile or ways of working perspective, it's really about understanding what the organization's problems are, what kind of outcomes they're looking to create. And then, you're going to use your toolkit to construct recommendations and hypotheses that are going to start creating value with respect to those problems. And then you can talk more about the technical stuff if you want.

ANA: [laughs]

SHINGI: If there's interest in doing that. But first and foremost, it's about actually creating value from the standpoint of what the organization's problems are.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that makes sense. As we wrap things up, I do have a question for you around, you know, you've seen your fair share of digital transformations. How long does it typically take to win the hearts and minds of organizations with these types of transformations?

SHINGI: So I could give you the consulting answer, which is it depends. 

[laughter]

ADRIANA: I fully expected that. [laughs]

SHINGI: The best way to kind of win people over is to demonstrate value. Find something in the organization that we can start working on in a focused way that proves out the hypothesis in terms of whatever we want to change, and then build on that success because it's only a small percentage of people that are going to connect with a conceptual framework around how if we make changes ABC, we will have benefits XYZ.

Most people need to see things happen. They need to actually be able to see it, and not only that, they need to be able to see it in the context of the organization. So yes, okay, we've seen it in the context of some other organization, great, but it'll never work here. So you need to actually prove it out in the context of the actual organization and then be able to tell that story and leverage the people who live that change as ambassadors to build more momentum and appetite to do other changes or to go bigger with the change.

ADRIANA: That makes sense. So you give the rest of the org FOMO. [laughter]

SHINGI: Yeah, that's the best way to do it, right? So, essentially, the change is spreading itself, right?

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah.

SHINGI: Like, you've planted the seed somewhere in the organization. You've been able to do some things that have demonstrable value. You've got people who are talking about it, and then you're going to get some other people who are interested because they don't want to be left behind or some other people who are interested because they're like, you know, what? We're not very different from that other group. And if this is working for them, it could work for us. So then the change starts to spread pretty organically in an organization, but finding that first point is critical. Like, the big mistake, I think, would be to try and push through a big change agenda on just concepts. That's a really hard sell.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Making that meaningful yet not necessarily huge change is very different from the concept of what you were saying earlier, where you've got an organization that has kind of a rebel offshoot that does things in a different manner. Because the idea is rather than the intention of them being different from the rest of the organization, this is meant to trickle down the desire to change. So it's less an us versus them rather than a come join us sort of mentality.

SHINGI: Exactly. And in terms of that balance between the old and the new, it's better to augment an existing group with some new people who can help in terms of whatever the experiment is that you want to run. And then it's we did it together; there isn't this semblance of old and new rather than, okay, I'm going to get this group of people who are like all the good, new, shiny people who know things versus these dumb, lazy people.

[laughter]

ADRIANA: So, as we wrap up, do you have any final parting words for folks getting into, I guess, both for folks who are working in the digital transformation space and also for folks who have digital transformations imposed upon them? [laughter] What is your advice? [laughs]

SHINGI: For me, one of the biggest realizations over time is that technology is fundamentally a people business. I know that people will think in terms of code and hardware, but it's actually a people business, and more so today than ever because...

ADRIANA: Totally.

SHINGI: Many of the things that people are working on from a software perspective are always going to involve large-scale collaboration in most big organizations, so it's a people thing. So with that being said, then it's really all about looking at things from that humanistic perspective and being able to get people aligned, creating the best environment to facilitate collaboration. Psychological safety is an important enabler in terms of being able to do those kinds of things. So, yeah, that human dimension is the biggest thing that you have to focus on. Everything else will take care of itself if the human dimension works. We'll figure it out. There are no insurmountable technology problems.

ANA: I love it when you said where it's like a new person walks into an organization, and that's a complex system walking in. And it's like, words of wisdom. [laughs] 

Well, with that, thank you very much, Shingi, for joining us in today's podcast. We loved having you on. 

Don't forget to subscribe and give us a shout-out on social media via oncallmemaybe. And be sure to check out the show notes on oncallmemaybe.com for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. For On-Call Me Maybe, we're your hosts Ana Margarita Medina...

ADRIANA: And Adriana Villela. Signing off with...

SHINGI: Peace, love, and code.

ALL: Whoo!