Adventures in Open Source Software with Riaan Nolan of Servian

About the guest:

Riaan is a Principal Consultant with Servian, based out of Brisbane, Australia. Originally from South Africa, Riaan has worked for multinational companies in China, Portugal, Germany, the US, and Australia. He has a keen interest in Automation, Infrastructure as Code, and Configuration as Code, with a strong focus on DevOps ways of working.

Riaan is also a HashiCorp Ambassador.

In his spare time, Riaan enjoys hiking in nature, camping, trail running, and motorcycles. 

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Transcript:

ANA: Hey, y'all. Welcome to On-Call Me Maybe, the podcast about DevOps, SRE, observability principles, on-call, and just about everything in between. Today we're talking to Riaan Nolan, who's going to be sharing some really cool tips for us today. And we're very happy to have you join us today.

RIAAN: Thank you very much. Good morning, Ana and Adriana. Nice to see you, guys. And thank you for having me on your podcast.

ADRIANA: Oh, we're super excited to be talking to you today.

ANA: So the first question we like starting a podcast with...since it's early morning for you, and it's midafternoon for me, and almost evening for Adriana, what's your drink of choice for today's podcast?

RIAAN: Well, it's 7:00 o'clock here by me, just after 7:00, so I'm having coffee. But normally, I love beer, anything cold, since I live in Brisbane, Australia. It's normally quite hot on this side. But it's coffee today. Cheers.

ANA: Cheers. I got carrot and orange juice. So it's somewhat tasty.

ADRIANA: Nice. Got plain, old water. [chuckles]

ANA: Gotta stay hydrated with whatever heat's going on in this world. Super sad panda for this global warming.

RIAAN: Oh, it's summer by you guys now.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. We had a heat wave here last week in Toronto where we got hit with like 40 degrees Celsius, so 100-ish Fahrenheit, so that was very unpleasant. And my AC broke in the midst of it, so boo. We got it fixed, fortunately, but boo.

RIAAN: Wow, that's cool. I can't wait to have that weather. I'm such a fan of hot weather. Really, I love it. If it's 38-40 degrees Celsius, I really love it.

ADRIANA: I do dig it as well, having grown up in Rio de Janeiro, but it definitely got very stifling inside the house. [laughs] But yeah, I'm for warm weather as well. I do enjoy a nice balmy temperature.

ANA: It's really weird for me because the entire United States is having temperatures of 80 degrees, 90 degrees-plus, and I reside in San Francisco, California. So sorry I use Fahrenheit, even though I grew up with Celsius; [laughter] that's a disclaimer. And secondly, San Francisco has been really cool, like not freezing cold, but it's been chilly, like 50-60 degrees Fahrenheit. And I go on the weather applications, and the entire United States is red. 

And then you look at Spain and France, and they're having deaths due to the heat. And I'm just like, I am so scared for whatever is going to happen overall in the world. But when you're one of the only cities that is not going through the heat wave, I'm like, so what are we going to get? Like, we're going to get something. What is it going to be?

ADRIANA: It's coming for you, I think.

RIAAN: I think it's that La Niña, the opposite of the El Niño at the moment. And that's what makes the weather a little bit lopsided, a little bit weird.

ANA: And it's interesting because it's like, weather is one thing [chuckles] that I refuse to try to get into and try to understand. I have the understanding of how water precipitation and condensation hurricanes work. But then it's like, my complex systems start at DevOps and SRE. [laughs] I refuse to start an entire other study of how other systems work.

[laughter]

ADRIANA: You've got enough complexity in your life. 

ANA: I think so. 

RIAAN: That's funny, you know.

ANA: So as we were breaking into having these conversations, I actually want to bring up the amazing conversations that happen virtually in COVID where I think we're geeking out a lot more. We have a lot more virtual calls. And it could be similar to the hallway tracks. We have conferences and meetups, but it's really awesome to be able to share tools. 

And we got a chance to share some of our favorite tooling and talk about Riaan's open-source projects. So I'm going to give you the mic for you to share a little bit more of what you have actually been working on and contributing to open source.

RIAAN: Thank you. So as you know, I'm a HashiCorp ambassador also with Adriana, my colleague.

ADRIANA: Woo. 

RIAAN: I'm HashiCorp staff. So the one tool I've been working on is HashiQube, and it runs all of the HashiCorp tools and MiniKube, and it now runs in a Docker container. So I'm really excited about that. It helps me a lot when I have to proof of concept stuff up. Sometimes just put up a...what do you call it? The Ansible Tower running on top of Minikube, and then I can use that to connect to Vault to sign certificates or get secrets. And if I have to use Docker or if I have to Terraform something up, it's just a little tool that I can quickly use to do that.

And then, on the other side, there's a little tools container that I've been working on that's on my GitHub. And that's just a little container with Terraform, and tfenv, and Terragrunt, and DBT, and kubectl, and Helm that you use for data projects or infrastructure projects. And it's just a little container that I try to get it to run on AMD64, and AArch64, the M1 chip, so the M2 Apple chips. So that's how I keep myself busy with and tinkering with that.

ADRIANA: That's awesome. I'm personally a big fan of HashiQube. And I think that's how we connected initially. 

RIAAN: Yes.

ADRIANA: And it's funny because I found out about HashiQube from a former co-worker of mine when we were doing some local Hashi setup. And he told me about HashiQube, and then I started playing around with it. I'm like, oh my God, this thing is the coolest thing in the world. Because I can now mess around with all the Hashi tools without having to rely on some Nomad cluster running in the data center. 

And for me, that was amazing because that meant I could be in control. (I like being in control.) I didn't want to have to rely on someone. And we were running...we had our own private cloud. So it wasn't like I couldn't just as easily spin up a virtual machine the way that I would if we were on a public cloud. So for me, this was an amazing salvation because I was able to tinker.

And I also want to say, as a plug for HashiQube, the stuff that I did in my local environment in HashiQube pretty much translated when I moved stuff over to deploy in the data center, so super stoked for that. So yeah, I can't say enough good things about HashiQube. And I've blogged a lot about HashiQube as well in my Nomad explorations.

RIAAN: Thank you.

ADRIANA: So awesome. Check it out, check it out. [laughs]

RIAAN: Thank you. I'm glad it helped you. It certainly helped me when I was sitting on the train or trying to learn a new thing here, you know, seeing our Vault can connect to MySQL and create database users and seeing that lease expire, that time to live. It's fascinating and so easy to do now. You just spin up a MySQL container with some arguments, and there you go in and plug it into Vault database engine, and off you go. So, yeah, it helped me also a lot.

ANA: We have so many tools out there. That's always nice when we have easier ways to onboard, especially when it comes to making the space that we work on better. That actually made me think about...I know both of you are huge open-source contributors. And I know some of our listeners are too. What was your biggest reason for going into contributing to open source and especially starting new projects for the ecosystem?

RIAAN: I've always been interested in open source, and I've always been using Ubuntu. But something that I enjoyed doing is also contributing to open source and helping other people learn. And I saw one of your questions is how do you cope with failures? And this is so much related to this topic because if you contribute and you can push to GitHub, and other people can pull your changes and test it out for you, and work together on this, then it kind of helps learning and dealing with failures a little bit easier. 

Because every single day, you have that aha, it's working moment, that little bit of happy endorphins in your brain that just fires, and you get it ready, and then you can make that commit. And sharing your work with other people, it's really enjoyable. It makes life interesting and fun.

ADRIANA: I was going to say when you put your work out there, when you open source your work, you are basically making yourself vulnerable to the outside world. The reward is immense because you can have people who come in and start using your product. And they're like, oh, this is awesome, but here's a way to make it better and contribute, and you help each other improve. 

But it can be so scary too because you open-source something, and then you can have some jackass go, "Well, this is crap. I would do it much better if it was me, and this was what I would do." And so it can be really scary. So I think it's so important to put yourself out there, even knowing that that could be the reaction that some may have from putting your work out there in public.

RIAAN: Totally. I mean, you've seen the way I do HashiQube. It's a bunch of Bash scripts and Vault commands and stuff. It's nothing really fancy or anything, but it works, and that's version one. And if people can make it better, then even great. For me, the intention of putting it out there is to help other people, and share the stuff, and get things going easily, being able to test new versions quickly, or just get something up. 

And I always look at it from that perspective, if your intentions are pure, then haters are going to hate, and there's nothing you can do about it. Haters will hate. And I try to just live on the bright side of life. And if they can do it better, then great, help contribute. If you can't do it better and you want to slam me or whatever, that's also okay. Some people sometimes just have a difficult day, and they bark at you. 

And coming out of this COVID thing, you can definitely feel the stress levels. It's been a little bit on the upper side of life. Of course, mental health awareness, we just had Mental Health Awareness month, I think, last month. So you can definitely feel people are sometimes on the edge. There is war in the world. We haven't had war in such a long time. And now it's there full-blown in the open. And, of course, the media want to capitalize because bad news sells. And this is not good for anyone. 

So what can you do? You got to just look on the brighter side of life and stay true to yourself and do what makes you happy and try to help other people. What else can you do? And plus, if people say you could do it better, I always tell them, "Man, I come from Africa, and if you think that I'm the best out there, you're the idiot. Africa... you are the first world; if you want to make it better, make it better." [laughs] Just a little bit of a joke. Us Africans are actually super clever, but just a joke.

[laughter]

ANA: I think it's also, as you say, the world being kind of really crappy right now with folks just trying to push through as much as they can. I think I've heard the sentiment from a lot of people that open source was just their outlet where it was their only way to cope with all this idle time that they had or the lack of in real-life connections like family and friends or health reasons you can't really see anyone. 

Being able to connect with one another and build a better ecosystem really, really pushed people. There are a lot of pros and cons. You need to have a lot of psychological safety within an open-source project to be able to have a code of conduct that it's if you're an asshole in PRs, [laughs] GTFO. You can't be there, and the organization is going to hold you accountable. They'll go to bat for you, and code of conduct breaches will get put in into a repo.

RIAAN: It will, you know. But I could think of nothing more exciting than learners telling you, "Your PR sucks." [laughter] I would frame that, blow it up, and put it on my wall. Look, learners told me my PR sucks. [laughter] It comes with the pressure of stuff. Sometimes these projects do with all of the good intentions. 

With all the time we've been trying to make stuff simpler, I just feel that it's been getting more and more complex, and complex and more complex. And as soon as you look through the microscope lens and you look deeper, then there's more to see. And I think we will get there. We are definitely still on the journey. I saw a tweet from Kelsey Hightower the other day saying DevOps is dead; long live DevOps. 

ADRIANA: [laughs]

RIAAN: And isn't that so true? Most companies we work for are only now doing this transition into DevOps and the ways of working, and we've been in this so long that it's already kind of last decade for us. But still, it's still so fresh in the minds of corporates that it's actually fascinating.

ADRIANA: Yeah, it totally is. It's funny because I think Ana and I were talking about that earlier with regards to DevOps at the enterprise level is so different from DevOps at the non-enterprise level. Because at the enterprise level, you are dealing with bureaucracy, red tape, moving parts. 

You've got the lifers who do not want to change. You've got the VPs who are basically marking their territory and also are going to be resistant to change because you're encroaching on their little kingdoms. It is such a complex sociotechnical problem. I don't even know that there is the solution for it. 

I think the only best approach to start taking with that is you need some sort of like, honestly, I think you need the CEO on board with this stuff or the CTO. They can push that down to the lower levels, basically providing that psychological safety, if you will, to the other folks saying "Yes, it's okay to follow DevOps practices." But it's so hard to get up to those levels because those guys are so far removed that how do you have that conversation? I mean, even the ones that were technical have been so far removed from tech.

RIAAN: What I think we're going to do is we're going to outlive them. And the way we are doing it, we are already prepping the next generation, the next wave of DevOps people. So as we get older, we're also going to move into management, but this mindset, this curious, this forgiving, this no-blame culture, I believe, is going to stay with us. 

Let's say you go up into management, CIO level, CTO level, you will still have this foundational layer of DevOps in the fiber of your being. And you will be naturally more accommodating to change that bubbles up from the bottom, you know what I mean? So I just think it's a matter of time. 

We should just keep on spreading the good word of DevOps, and eventually, we're going to outlive them all and make this the true gospel. Eventually, this is going to be the gospel because this is the way. I don't want to sound [laughter] [inaudible 16:15] or something. But this is the way, you know, this is the way. It starts off small. 

And people say DevOps is just for tech. But let's say marketing have a huge campaign. Now, SRE sees the lights go off, and the alarm goes off. These clusters of fleets are under pressure. They're getting extreme traffic. Where is this coming from? Is it a DDoS attack? No, it's legitimate traffic. But no one told SRE that they're planning to have a marketing campaign.

Or if someone deployed something, then put a New Relic marker, a deployment marker in this APM graph that can say, well, I've just deployed this version. And now we can see the performance either dip or change or the error rate. It could be just as simple as putting a little bit of a marker there or a shared calendar. And let's say we deploy some new Terraform code or something like that; put a marker. 

I love New Relic graphs that are full of little lines that you can see what is happening there. And people always hate chatty Slack channels and stuff. I actually love it because it makes it so easy to go back and see, oh, wow, here the wheels started coming off. And, look, this is where it caught fire, guys. Check here. It's burning, you know? [laughter] And it could just be so simple.

ANA: It's true. And it's like, this communication, like, you're right, it's not just Dev and Ops. It goes above that marketing, communications, and just being aligned with your sales org. Breaking that silo within a company is going to make you a stronger company. And it's also that over-communication is not a bad thing. Like, yeah, there are some relationships that might not be the best with over-communication. 

But as we think about human society and the way that things are building and going about it, over-communication is allowing us to express ourselves and really think about our thought patterns of going there. And it gives the ability for people to ask questions. And when we think about the world that we're building, whether it's in tech or as a society, we're building off the foundation of someone else and just trying to make things better for the next person.

RIAAN: Isn't that the truth? You said it. That is the whole idea behind infrastructures as code, versioning, tagging, and releases. And QA and testing, we're just trying to make stuff better.

ADRIANA: Yeah, that's the thing. And I think those of us who see the magic we're like, duh, of course, it's going to be this way. 

ANA: [laughs]

ADRIANA: And then we feel compelled to spread the good word of DevOps across the board because we're like, can you not see that there is no other way? 

[laughter]

RIAAN: And it could just be some people want to use containers, and some people want to use VMs. And the tech around it doesn't really matter. 

ADRIANA: No.

RIAAN: The tech doesn't matter, really. If you have virtualized something and you haven't yet gone on your journey of containerization, I'm not going to burn you for that. I mean, you're still on your journey. 

Maybe you have a flipping monolith with persistent data that you need to carry around, like “The Hunchback of Notre Dame” or something. You can't help it that you've got a hunchback. You've got to carry this thing around. But you're just on your journey, I think, I suppose.

ANA: Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about. I was talking to Adriana last week, where it's like, I love a lot of the thought pattern that has come with SRE because it's an implementation of DevOps of making things better for the purpose of reliability.

But the more I started thinking about the space, it goes back to communication and the people aspect of it, where you are leading with empathy. You're understanding that a lot of people have come together to build a complex system. And guess what? [laughs] It's very large and very complex. Once you really look under the hood, you're like, oh, snap. 

And if we're able to understand that there's going to be a lot of contributing factors into things going wrong, whether they're incidents or not, then we really can start over-communicating. Or I recently joined our engineering ops channel at the company that we work for. And it's been really nice to start seeing everyone's deployment status. It is word for word I'm deploying this, and then they'll copy all their kubectl, like, export before they roll out the deployment. 

And it's like, by having that visibility, let's say something does go wrong, we have a back trail. And this just adds on to a lot of the other work we do where it's like observability, getting a chance to view those traces of how your system comes together. It's just like, this is beautiful. [laughs] Like, let me present you my large complex system that we can know what went wrong. 

ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so true. I love that idea because I do feel like, you see, in a lot of large enterprises, there's often the dude who's the keeper of the scripts, and they reside on his computer, and that's it. And DevOps encourages us sharing is caring. Let's make sure that everyone knows where these frigging scripts reside. Because if shit hits the fan, now you know, okay, it was this script. Okay, let's go look into this script and figure out what the hell happened. It's that sort of open mentality that really helps us become better, right?

RIAAN: When shit hits the fan, it's nice to know how fast that shit was flying, [laughs] how that shit hit that fan. It's good to just have a couple of seconds before and after. And it's lovely, actually. It's a very unique time we are in, and this movement towards observability. I liken it to you've got a TV and multiple channels. And you've got your radio, and you've got newspapers. But if you have all of those on at the same time, sure, it would be a little bit busy in your house because of the kids, TV, and the games, and whatever. 

But if you could just have one channel on when you want it on, or you could dial into one channel to see this stuff...so people who say, "Oh, it's too noisy," or whatever, well, I can't exactly tell the newspapers to stop printing because it's too noisy for me. They're going to think you're a freak. Turn the channel off if it's too noisy, or look the other way if it's too noisy for you. But the thing is, we need to get it noisy so that we have this observability, this insight. 

And in the future, I think we're going to get maybe a little tablet injected into our arm that can measure our cholesterol. And on our phone, we can see a little graph that shows you oh, wow, look, in three or four years, I could have a heart attack. Or holy moly, my blood pressure is really high, or my oxygen levels just tanked, or something like that. I mean, I think it's just preparing us for the next thing; it's observability.

ANA: You literally nailed one of my niche spaces of bioinformatics and mental health because that is literally my biggest passion project that I hope to one day start developing. It's like being able to aggregate a lot of these metrics. And this just comes from my SRE mindset where it's like really complex systems on architecture, tech space, but then really complex architecture in our bodies because of the amount of microservices that we have to run to literally function and wake up. [laughs]

RIAAN: Yes. There you said it. Exactly, there are a lot of microservices.

ANA: It's just like, it's the most beautiful, like, changing your mental model to go into a passion, and it's literally the biggest passion project that I have of trying to make a dent in this. Because it's that, like, if we were to have a lot more understanding into the ways that our brains are processing thoughts, processing...trauma is a lot harder to get like bioinformatics on until we do more research. But just going from habits to things that align to your values to just like, why is my sleep pattern so bad? Maybe I should look at how late I'm eating and tracing [laughs] what your actions were towards your entire day. 

RIAAN: Very, very true, you know.

ADRIANA: To your point, Riaan, about people get really frazzled, I guess by information overload, but sometimes you don't know what information you need. So you'd almost prefer to get as much information as possible to identify the information that's useful to you so that you can at least make informed guesses, informed decisions around what's going on. Because if you don't have enough information, well, that's worse, I think, because --

RIAAN: Yes, you said it. You said it. You don't have enough, so you just see when the box died. You don't know what happened to the CPU, or the RAM, or the disk space tanked, or whatever the heat. You just see it went down. You have no real information to work with.

ANA: It's like there are so many things that need to happen to keep something alive [laughs] that it's that; it's like, was it a people process that didn't get followed? Was it the technology timing out on a certain action that it was going to take to remediate this problem? Or was it just a lack of awareness that this can happen? We don't have enough understanding of the stack that we're running, or we didn't really do the proper types of capacity testing to sustain the marketing launch that we rolled out last week.

RIAAN: Exactly. But this data is important, especially in this new world where we are going towards. And outages affect companies. They affect bottom lines, and sales, and people's perception about the company. But the thing is, it's unavoidable. It is just unavoidable. 

So Dr. Werner Vogels from AWS said (What a charismatic guy.) things will break. They are going to break. And if you don't plan for failure and you don't work around this for this expected failure, this is the way of the new world, The New World Order. [laughs]

ADRIANA: Right? Yeah, [inaudible 26:39]

RIAAN: [laughs]  It's finally here. Outages.

ANA: It's perfect because I'm literally giving a talk on incidents on Friday. And as I was going through my slides yesterday, I threw Werner's quote of everything fails all the time. We have to take that understanding that the technology that we're building is so fragile that if you don't come in with a hypothesis that things will break, [laughs] you're going to be really mad when they break.

ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing. I think some people have this expectation that things are going to work perfectly all the time. And as consumers, we're like, ah, this frigging website's so slow. What the hell's going on? And it's easy to forget that even that little blip, the fact that your system recovered from that tiny little blip, is because there was a group of SREs working behind the scenes really hard to make sure that your system is reliable. 

And I think it's good to remind ourselves of that, that we should be grateful for the little blip because we know that it could have been a big blip instead. I mean, our systems are so complex these days. It's ridiculous. I think our smartphones are more powerful than the computers on the Apollo rockets back in the day. It's mind-blowing. So yeah, like, you're going to get a blip every so often because nothing is perfect.

RIAAN: I was reading just going through this blog post on Kubernetes for clients with putting a Spring Boot onto Kubernetes. And I read that, and then they mentioned that Kubernetes started from Google Borg. And then I clicked on this, and I got that PDF. But at the bottom, I think it was on page 18, they said the user experience...and I'll copy it for you here about SRE, so I'm posting it for you now. And I actually thought that it's actually so nice. 

It says the user perspective SREs do much more than system administration. They are the engineers responsible for Google's production services. They design and implement software, including automation systems and manage applications and service infrastructure and platforms to ensure high performance and reliability. And if you just think an SRE, that's like three letters. 

ANA: [laughs]

RIAAN: But what they actually do on a day-to-day basis [laughs] is incredible. It is just incredible the amount of effort and thought that goes into it.

ANA: And it's really interesting because the more you start talking to folks about their SRE practices at enterprises and startups, you still realize that every single company implements SRE so differently. I'm a huge fan of telling folks to read the SRE Bible, the Google book where they started talking about this practice that they've been doing for ten years for production excellence. 

And you start realizing that every single company is less complex, more complex, has different leadership, has different silos that they need to work on, or their stack or hours that they have are so different. They're like, you can't really adopt word for word what the SRE model from Google is, and I really love that. I feel like a lot of SRE is leading with empathy, and it's that of constantly restructuring your practices to meet the demands of your employees and the ways to make them more successful. 

But it's also been digging into the principles of DevOps of iterating and learning that we're constantly able to be like, I work at Lightstep; this is how we do SRE. I work at New Relic; this is how we do SRE. And everyone's implementation and problems are so different, which is so freaking cool.

ADRIANA: I think, too, to reinforce the point, I think reading the Google SRE Bible is important. But companies who want to stand up SRE teams need to also ensure that they cannot possibly run their SRE team like Google does. It's like, okay, take the best ideas from that book that will suit you. Maybe make up your own shit too [laughs]; that's going to work for you, and that's going to be what SRE means to you. But you get the general idea, but I think each company has to craft their own journey.

RIAAN: Totally, and there's so much we don't know. Sometimes I feel like marketing...at some stage of the game, everyone thinks they are the most important, every department. And it's kind of that egocentric outlook on the world and business and what we do that hampers collaboration in a way. If you want to really collaborate, you need to understand that other people have built the roads that you drive on. And for it to work, you need to build something else for someone to drive on. It is really that generational working together and building on previous gains that makes stuff better for everyone.

ANA: It's like how to be human type of learning. [laughs] 

RIAAN: Yeah, in a 50-minute podcast, learn how to be human. Super funny.

[laughter]

ANA: It's just like running a production service. That's easy. 

RIAAN: Isn't it? [laughter] It's so easy. 

ANA: As we're coming to the close of the podcast, what practical advice do you have for our listeners today?

RIAAN: Don't worry about failure. Fail fast if you do fail. None of us are superstars or anything, so your name doesn't mean shit anyway. [laughter] So put your code out there. If people think it sucks, it sucks. If they like it, they like it. The best thing is just paint your picture. Do your thing and put it out there because that will help you grow. 

My colleague, when I first started at Servian or took my journey onto Terraform he said to me, "If you want to get good at Terraform, write as much Terraform as you can." And that is where, you know, if you want to get good at something or you want to get better at it, write as much as you can. Just write Terraform. Just go out and write stuff. If you want to get good at something, go automate it and try it again and again. 

And maybe today it's a Bash script running in a...it's a Bash script, and then it's the same Bash script but running in your CI/CD pipeline, and tomorrow with a better pipeline, and then it's a kubectl running stuff on clusters. No more Dockers or VMs or whatever. But if you don't start that journey, you're never going to get to the end of it. 

And the sooner you start, the quicker you're going to have fun and enjoy yourself. And just put yourself out there. It doesn't have to be perfect. Day one, even God destroyed the world. [laughter] He was like, this version one ain't working for me. [laughter] Get the water. Bring me water. [laughter] And so it's okay, man. It's totally fine. And I suppose that's the advice I can leave you with and also, don't litter.

[laughter]

ANA: Those are good ones. 

ADRIANA: I love it. I love it.

RIAAN: So thank you very much. It was so lovely to chat with both of you, really. What a wonderful way to start my day. And, Adriana, thank you for even thinking of me for this podcast. I've really enjoyed it.

ADRIANA: Oh, thank you. We had such a great time chatting with you. And I am such an admirer of the work that you do on HashiQube. I do encourage our listeners to check out HashiQube because it's got some really awesome stuff. And it runs also on both Intel and M1 architectures, so super bonus points. 

And the two articles that Riaan was talking about earlier, we'll post that in the show notes as well, so for anyone who's interested in checking those out. And we will also share your social links in the show notes in case anyone wants to reach out to you to ask about HashiQube and other things.

ANA: And don't forget to subscribe and give us a shout-out on Twitter via @oncallmemaybe. We're going to be posting a lot of cool, little snippets of some of the guests that we have this season. And make sure to connect with us and our guest.

ADRIANA: And signing off from On-Call Me Maybe I am Adriana Villela with my awesome co-host...

ANA: Ana Margarita Medina signing off.

RIAAN: And peace, love, and code.