S2.E.34: JORDAN HARBINGER, reality checking, shower thoughts and a lot of good stuff

All right. Welcome back to mindset radio. I'm your host Jeff Banman. And today I have begged, pleaded, convinced, guilt, tripped and otherwise, and probably now responsible for dinners and drinks for the rest of my life. Uh, but our guest today is the man, the myth, the legend, Jordan harbinger, and more, more myth, I think. I know. Don't beat yourself up. That's not allowed. Uh, you've done an exceptional job. I love listening to your show. Believe it or not, not everybody knows who you are, which is unfortunate. I've run across people all the time and I'm like, Hey, I finally convinced Jordan to come on the show. And they're like, who? And I know that's hard to believe...

it's easy for me to believe, man. My, I have an infant son who doesn't give a crap who I am. Right? And he never will. I think. Isn't that how it is with kids?

No, I, I don't know. Cause here's the funny thing with even with a little man this morning, right? So just turned two in November and we were getting ready to go for a walk, do whatever. And I turned around and I cross my arms, he looked right at me and just crossed his arms. Exactly. It's a big grin on his face. So that'll start, it'll start to come eventually.

I gotta tell you this, uh, I've got, I interview a lot of people for the Jordan harbinger show as you know, cause you, you do listen to the show and thank you for that. And I've got, you know, acquaintances, I should say buddies, whatever that are like well known household names across at least America. And they're like, yeah, you know, I thought when I have kids I'm gonna finally be the cool dad because you know, super famous, super rich person that everyone, you know, cow toes to walk into a restaurant, never wait for a table, never pay for stuff half the time. And he's like, no, my kids are still like, can you drop me off at the corner? I don't want people to see that I'm with you. And like, and some of it's for different reasons. Like, you know, most of us, we're just going to be too nerdy to hang out with the kids.

And for him, maybe it's like half nerdy half. They don't want their friends asking questions for their dads or something like that. Like you're dead if during that one time or that one movie. But still, it's kind of like no matter how cool like you can be on, we literally had this conversation on their yachts and they're like, yeah, well, and I'm like, I'm on your yacht watching the NBA playoffs on a big screen TV that comes up from like the mahogany whatever. And your kids are like, dude sucks. You know, like it's you just, you can't,

no, never, ever. You can't man. I mean it's, you know, I've got the spectrums. Like we were talking about 15 and a half. She splits a year with me. So I spent my 45th birthday standing in line at the DMV to get her learner's permit. I'm excited though. So I mean, and you know it, it's coming back around. That's what I'm watching. They kind of, especially with the girls, you know, my oldest now coming closer to 16, we have a whole different relationship and it's very cool to kind of see that come around. Like she's excited to do stuff with me. Um, so it does, it ebbs and flows, but yeah, dude, it doesn't matter who you are. You could be the coolest cat on the face of the planet. Your kids going to still be like, alright, leave me alone. I think that's the way it goes.

Yup. Exactly. So I, he's five months old. I got a few more years.

A bit of time, man. You got a little bit yeah, that that first, uh, that first year and a half. You're just like you are, I have no idea who I am.

Right? Yeah. I would say common. Common advice I've been given is the first 10 years they'll think I'm cool and then the next 10 years they won't. And then like in their twenties, it's kind of 50, 50, and then after age 30, again, they realize I'm not a total dumb ass and I actually have something to say. I put my own experience with my own parents, like my parents are awesome. My parents don't know anything. Oh, turns out all that stuff that I thought I knew better than I was only half. Right. Okay, fine. I was 10% right, but I'm still going to count it because I can never let them have this one. And now that I'm 40, I'm like, Oh, time is limited, you know, just enjoy it. But I don't want to waste your listeners time with reminiscing or

I think it's, you know, it's all relevant and it's all things that we, uh, deal with. You know, it's like when I had Phil McKernan on and, uh, even Sherry walling and some people, you know, uh, you know, we talked about the family issue several times, especially in our community. It's like, how do I go from being fireman, a cop, you know, quote unquote hero, which I hate that term. Um, you know, but, and then step in and be a dad and be like a normal dad or a normal mom, you know? Uh, it's tough.

Why do you hate that term? I think a lot of people your position, they hate that. I mean I, my dad loves his hobby is like paying for policemen's meals at restaurants, which by the way I think is not allowed in most places, but indeed in Detroit they're like, thanks. Yeah, they're hot dog, but out here in California they're like, I cannot do that. Please do not do that. I have to fill out paperwork when you do that. So, but he loves it. And, and uh, it's funny cause I think a lot of people look at servicemen, firemen, cops, et cetera as heroes. But yeah, I guess I guess it's probably uncomfortable hearing it to your face. I would, I don't know how I'd feel. It's hard to say that

it's caused a lot of conflict. It's interesting because Phil Phillip has asked me to give my one last talk in February here in Boulder. Um, and it's brought up a lot of stuff. And some of that is what you know, we're dealing with now is like, really now you've done this, you've done a lot of work on yourself, you've done a lot of different, you know, aspects. But I think for me it's like I don't, that's not, it's not why I did what I did. It's, I, I didn't do it for any of that and I'm not, you know, I think part of the thing, it's like I laid in bed and like, I want your house to burn down because I want something to go do. I want to like, I want war and conflict because I want to fulfill my destiny, my job. How does that, you know, mentally conflict with and emotionally conflict with you? Saying thank for, thank you for my service or you know, Hey, I think you're a hero. No, dude, I'm actually not because it's not how it works inside. Uh,

that's, that's funny if, yeah, I think if people knew that firemen got accepted, wow, look at this big ass house burning down, man, there's, this one was really expensive. This is going to be a fun one. Then probably public perception change.

Well, I mean, in, it's in for me, you know, old school, you got to think, you know, I started back in the early nineties and then when I, it's like when I came back from Kosovo in 99 nobody knew what the hell was going on. Nobody knew the services invaded and committed mass atrocities in this country and the things that we dealt with, you know, it was just, it was a blank. Right? I mean, it was, it's interesting to me pre nine 11 post nine 11 you know, when nobody gives a shit that I was a fireman. The only people that cared that I was a firefighter was the, you know, seven year old kids coming in to check out the fire truck. Nobody, you know, you didn't walk down the street. Rarely did anybody offer to buy your meal for ya on occasion. But it was super limited and nobody was walking around saying, Hey, thank you for your service. You know, pre nine 11 it just wasn't existing. And now it's in your face always. You know, and, and I, I, I get it, you know, Mike Brown and I talked about this the other day. It's, he's got a buddy that always responds with thank you for your support when they say that and then they get a little awkward because it's like, wait a minute, did I, do I support the war? Do I, do I agree with that? So it kind of is a throwback to them, uh, in a kind way, if you will.

Yeah. And, and, uh, look, I think people now more than ever appreciate it just because it is in the media a lot, but I understand how the, to bring this back to value for your listeners, I understand how your self image doing whatever you do might not match what the public sees and that can actually cause some discomfort and have that not because I do anything particularly heroic, let's be clear. But people will say things like, Oh, I'll get a video from a friend. And they're like, I met the mall and the person in line in front of me at this restaurant is listening to your show. So I started talking to them and they were like amazed that I knew you. And so I'm sending a video with this random like Chinese woman in line for dumplings. She is really excited and sort of getting all like, you know, Oh my gosh, she's Jordan harbinger.

I'm all excited and that makes me uncomfortable. Not because I don't enjoy it. I think it's awesome. And I think most kids up til age, whatever 30 I probably like if only that would ever happen to me, just one time in my life. But when it actually happens it can be highly uncomfortable because people get so excited and there's a part of me that's like I can never live up to that. Like I can never live up to that. And we see our own blooper reel in our head because we, they got like tripped over his own foot last night cause he stepped on a Lego and like yelled at his kid and then felt bad about it and then like got work late because he spilled coffee all over his crotch and didn't want to get laughed at. So he had to turn around and go home and change his pants.

Like what? That's our self image. And then when other people are like, wow, you're so awesome. It's like thank you. But also the, you have cognitive dissonance that comes into play, doesn't feel comfortable. And so if you're in a service position and you feel uncomfortable when people give you those kinds of accolades, then congratulations. You're a normal human being and you're not a narcissist or just somebody who's maybe not done a ton of work accepting that kind of praise, which makes you a normal human being. So I want people to feel comfortable with that and not feel like, Oh yeah, I don't like that. And that makes, that makes me even more weird for not liking praise. Something's wrong with me. That's not the case. It's always almost always the case that when you feel awkward about somebody giving you high praise, it just means you probably have a healthy self image. Maybe you skew a little bit more towards negative, but that's okay because I think we're as humans kind of designed to do that. We have a negativity bias. And it's completely healthy,

man. I, you know, that's exactly, so this is perfect conversation because you know, the way I look at one, why I wanted to bring you on the show, it's like you're the encyclopedia of knowledge now, right? You've been interviewed just a massive amount of people and you've gotten a chance to really one, learn a lot, but, but contribute a lot out there and you know, for today, the problem that I wanted to kind of have the conversation with you around that, that I feel like we all deal with is, especially in the services we have, this need to be everything to everyone all the time.

I understand that, right? So let me, let me disassemble that a little. You mean that if you're, let's say you're a policeman, you mean you've got to be a cop both when you're at home, but also when you're out with your friends, but also when you're at work naturally, but also even on your lunch hour when you're just trying to house a steak hoagie and not get any on your uniform or cheese steak and not get any on your uniform, you can't really turn it off cause it's part of your identity. Right?

Which component of that there? It's a 24 hour gig.

Sure. So in every occupation has that, but you guys, and I say you guys meaning just fire, police, military, whatever. Hopefully that's clear. You guys have it more because yes, I'm a or interview or radio host or whatever you want to call it all the time. But nobody's like, Oh my God, is anybody a radio host? This man's having a heart attack, right? Like that will never happen. Interview his wife and see how she's feeling right now. Like that's never going to happen to me and no sane world will that happen. But if you're hanging out with your family on your one day off, cause you've been working a bunch of overtime, putting out fires in California and you finally got to go to your kid's party for like three hours and somebody passes out, you can't be like, look man, I have been working a lot. And that's all you, you can't do that, right? You're, you're on. And if you're a police officer and your daughter brings home a sketchy looking guy, you're not like, you know, I'm just going to pack these in guy.

Yeah, this is okay. I know I recognize the gang tattoos, but look man, I am not on the clock. Have fun honey. Like that's not going to happen either. Not only because you're a dad, but because you're like, I know what that symbol means and that's, there's no way you're leaving the house with that guy. Right. And I'm sure that that happens all the time. And so in a way it's like with VR, it's, it's one of those with great power comes great responsibility. But sometimes it's like, well fine, but I want to turn the responsibility off. So I can play Xbox, dammit.

Yeah, man. There's, yes. And there's this place where it's like, I mean, I, years ago all confess, long time ago I, you know, when I first started the fire service, I had firefighter plates, you know, tagline, license plates. I eventually took them off. I was like, you know what, cause I don't want to stop at the accident anymore. I don't want to, I don't want to be this. If I'm not in it on it, I want to be just average person. I want to be okay to just be, you know, Jeff, not fireman, not, you know, military guy, not agency guy and anything else. I just want to hang out. Uh, you know, I think that's a big problem.

I can imagine because you can't, it's like never taking a day off, which I think we all know what that feels like as well. Just owning my own business. I know what it's like to be like. I mean, I'll sit down to a nice relaxing meal on Thanksgiving and Christmas and I'm like, I should be answering fan mail, zeroing out my inbox, reading this book for doing some prep for this show. What do I have to do? I mean, I will literally be, I try not to do this one. I'm holding my kid, but even sometimes it happens and I'll go, Oh man, in five minutes I got to put him down because I really have to get back to work. And I'm like, no, I don't. It's Sunday at 1:00 PM what I need to do is put him in bed and go watch Netflix.

You know? That's, that's what I need to do. But I can't really turn it off. And I think for people who are in positions, like what your audience and what you, the position that you're in, it's even more dangerous because if I say, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if I don't finish this book today? The answer is, well, I guess I could do it tomorrow. I just have to get up a little bit earlier and maybe listen while I'm at the gym. But if somebody says, what's the worst thing that happens if I don't stop at this accident? You start catastrophizing because you either start saying, Oh my gosh, well this could happen, this can happen. You start catastrophizing or you just start thinking nothing. Who cares? I got to get on with my life. But then you probably have a crisis of conscience that's like, yeah, I shouldn't think that way.

What kind of horrible person drives past an accident when they have the training to stop it. So you're compelled to, nothing's really compelling me to bust out my Kindle. Right. Like a little bit of guilt that I can turn off cause I realize it's a little irrational. Your guilt is maybe that person's child is in hell a and you don't stop because you're halfway to whole foods and your kid's crying. You know like w what, what? It's a different game and I don't think, I don't think a, what do you call us? Civilians? Like I don't think us, right. Joe's like understand that fully. Because if you're a teacher in somebody who doesn't understand their math homework and they can't get ahold of you, Oh well you'll, you'll help them out on Monday. But if somebody passed out on the sidewalk, you have almost like a moral obligation and it's hard to turn that off and realize that you need your own sanity.

So I think a lot of people in your position, you put yourselves last more so than most parents do, more so than most teachers, more so than most, I don't know, public servants in another position, like the mayor of most towns is not sitting at home on the weekend and worrying about what's in the office. Um, it may be a big city, but most, most of them are hanging out with their family and having Turkey, you're the one that has to be awake at 3:00 AM for the call. And that, that level of stress is not good for you longterm. And then of course they say take a vacation and you're like, I wish I freaking good. You know, I'm on vacation thinking, hope nothing bad happens to my friends. Even if you can put society out of your mind, you got your buddies out there.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's, you know, it's interesting because like we do, we, we leave ourselves last in line and there's a level of expectation I think even in relationship and friendships and et cetera. Like there's this normal like why can't you just turn it off? Why can't you just be home right now? Why can't you, you know, you're not at work, why can't you just leave that at work? And so that's kind of this be everything to everybody all the time that shows up. It's like, okay, so I've got this side of me that I can't turn off. It's a 24 seven deal that I have this moral, ethical and you know, emotional response of ness to right. That I just am always tuned into what's happening. And then, you know, my wife wants me to be freed up and easygoing and have fun and not care, right. And, and not have this thing. And so it's like there's this ebb and flow, constant conflict. And I know, cause I've listened to some of your shows that have been radically helpful for me and a lot of ways, uh, you know, the people that you've had on and just kind of beginning to dissect how I begin to create transition points or points of recovery or understand kind of how I flow from one ideal person to another ideal person in a way, right. Without then the guilt and shame and crap that goes with it.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of cognitive, well we've mentioned cognitive dissonance, but there's brain science that goes into to this like catastrophizing, what's the worst thing happened? And you start going down the if trail and the stakes are higher for what you guys are doing, guys and gals, let's be clear now, there's a lot of women out there now and I, I like, um, and you know, you're in this weird position where society will look at everything. Well, police especially now, um, firemen, I dunno if are, if you're immune to this, but, uh, I can't, nothing comes to mind. But with police man, now it's like you're under fire and all of you under fire. Whenever there's any kind of negativity. And I, I would imagine any cop out there now, in fact, I wonder this, I'm so curious if, if police now feel like they're looked at differently by a lot of folks just because of what's been in the news and that really, it really sucks to hear that because I mean, when I was little, the police would come in your house and you'd say, Hey, do you want some coffee?

And they'd be like, sure, thank you. Now I feel like that would just never happen. Um, because there's just this more arms length distance, at least in bigger cities, especially, um, with where the police stand. When I grew up, I didn't grow up in a small town, but they would come in and they didn't take their shoes off because, you know, that's, that's a little bit too much. But they would have, you can make them tea or coffee and they would be like, thank you. Yeah, that's, that's great. Now I don't think that's allowed. And I remember recently, I live in San Jose, California. We had a package stolen and the cop came in and sat down at our kitchen Island and open up his laptop and did the report. And I was like, wow, this is such a different experience than I've experienced anywhere else.

And even just the, the times that I've dealt with the police in other big cities, even in New York, when they come in, it's just like, you almost feel like you're at the police station. And I'm like, I didn't commit any crime. I called you guys, you know? And I remember just like feeling really intimidated and I realized, Oh yeah, they have half or one, some percentage of the time these guys walk into a house and someone tries to stab them or something, you know, like, so I gotta just sort of keep that in mind, but you can't live your whole life that way. And that's just really easy for me to say as a fricking podcast or it radio guy and you guys can't turn it off. And that takes its toll. There is science behind this. When you are in fight or flight mode or when you are at least an elevated stress for a long period of time, you don't, uh, you wreck havoc on parts of your brain. Um, you age faster, your heart, uh, is obviously not as healthy as it should be. And if you're always eating on the go, those two risk factors combined are just not good lifestyle. Um, I don't want to say choices because it's, it's hard to say that it's a choice, but they're not good lifestyle factors I should say. And that's, that's really bad for everyone around you too. And so you're really caught between a rock and a hard place. I had

one too. Yah. Which is not only all those core factors to it, but then, and it's finally cool because that's why I think we're doing well with the podcast and we're growing significantly in this community because we can now have these conversations and five years ago, 10 years ago, like this just, it wouldn't even be accepted. The kind of, the idea of looking, of looking at what's going on of, you know, emotional safety and the things that we deal with. Like when I grew up that, that, those were not conversations that were had at all ever around, you know, we live in a world of suck it up, shove it down, slam it down, deal with it, and do your job. And that's how a lot of us, especially kind of in our upper thirties and forties, you know, that's how we grew up. That was the environment.

And it's cool for me to at least to see that today we're able to have these conversations and they're listening, right? And people are more curious about how do I deal with this? How do I transition emotionally? How do I understand all these core factors? Right? They're just kind of the task and purpose factors and then the internal factors that are in play. I mean, I, I remember flying the episode you did with, uh, Gabriel as Rocky when you guys were talking about self-development, uh, and kind of go and add it, right? I can't remember what the tile they upset was right off hand. Uh, but I was texting you all the way through it. Like this is, you were spot on with it. Uh, I,

I always remember Gabe and I do a lot of stuff together because he's a frigging genius with his research. Go ahead.

Yeah, like in that [inaudible] that, that particular episode, I'm going to find it, tag it and put it into the show notes because that particular episode, you know, you went through and you talked about all the kinds of the bullshit that's out there, the reality of things, you know, he did a phenomenal job and kind of breaking down a look at self-development in a way that I believe made sense to our, would make sense to our community rather than kind of this hoopla, hippy dippy hang out kind of stuff. You know, you were talking about some of the programs you've gone to where you just felt like totally violated in it. Like, get me outta here. Uh, and you know, and you were sharing some of those stories along the way that I think really resonated with me. And resonates with our world because it's like I don't, I it, there's a fear that if I become soft or soften myself, I won't be capable of doing my job as well.

Yeah. And there may be some truth to that, but it becomes, it becomes problematic because of course you wouldn't parent the same way that you police. Right? Like, well, I, in theory you should probably not do that. Yeah. I mean, what, who am I to tell anybody how to police? But that's the idea behind it and it's really, really tricky to make recommendations like that because I'm sure people out there see therapists and things like that and it's like, okay, great. Have you ever been to Iraq, Afghanistan? No. Have you ever put out a fire I've ever seen burned a child, you know, and you're there and the parents' reaction, have you ever had someone pull a knife on you? Uh, you know, while you're in a closed space and your partner is taking a leak? I don't know. You know, like all of these things are, it's hard to relate to and it's, it's hard to have somebody be like, you just need to relax more.

It's like F you, right? Like, what do you tell? Sure. Tell me that while you have another sip of your latte over there buddy. Like, sure. I just need to ask some more. And then it's like try yoga and like what planet? It just feels like the people giving advice to first responders and military. It's just, they're on another planet. They're from a different planet. It's completely nonsensical in a lot of ways. And so it's not, it's not relatable, which makes it worse because it's like hearing some quack tell you to do something and it's like you just don't even understand my reality at all. And it makes you feel more isolated of cool because then you think, Oh, the help that's available is some Yodel with a four year degree who's never even left, you know, our city or state and has certainly never held, uh, held a position like mine in a F in a dirt lot like Iraq or Afghanistan.

And now I'm sitting here like listening to him tell me what I need to do. It's just gotta be really isolating and frustrating and that I think is just part of the problem. And of course you've talked to other people with the same problems. It's a good support group, but you're mostly just venting as opposed to getting actionable strategies and that. That makes me kind of sad to hear because I think it's no surprise we rely on you to do your jobs to have a functioning society where I can sit here and sip my latte and Dole out unqualified advice. Right? Yeah.

I mean I used to have this statement where it's like if I went to see somebody went down to sit with a psycho or whatever, I'm like, listen, if I am actually honest with you, if I actually share with you what you want me to share with you, you're going to have PTSD by the time we're done. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're going to be fucked up, like, like, and, and then I'm going to end, the problem is like we live in a world or the way our brains work, it says, so there's this whole world for me now kind of uncovering, which is this understanding of how to bring calm to chaos. All right, so we're back and you know, here's where we kind of left off and we were talking, you were, you were, were kind of exploring this understanding from the law enforcement aspect where you know, you're Sharon, you know, cops used to be able to come in and sit down, have a cup of coffee, you know, actually converse with you where today it's like 24, seven always on edge.

And it's this, you know, it was interesting as we're going, because I've been looking at this quite a bit, it's like this collapse of, of stress between the public and the providers, if you will. Right? So it's like this, there's this vicious circle that's happening. I think now that's been happening over the last several years where you know the police are a little bit more under fire being watched being you know, putting them on edge, the public's on edge about the police. It's like this high state of conflict where somebody has got a run in the middle and be like, okay can everybody just settled down for a second and take a breath and kinda hit the reset button. I do see that happening significantly.

Yeah, I can imagine that there's not a whole lot of resources out there. I mean it's like there are and there aren't and everyone complains about things like the VA. I don't really know much about that, but I do know that no matter how many resources are out there, it can be really tough. When you go home and your friends and neighbors are kind of oblivious, you almost maybe feel like you're living a secret life. Maybe you are living a secret life.

Yeah, which my neighbor, my neighbor in Florida for years, it's like, dude, what do you do? Cause you're like disappear for several weeks and then you just play golf when you're home and your work in your garage. Like I don't understand what you do. Yeah, man. I mean I think the, I, you know, it's been an interesting conversation so far because we've kind of explored where for us there's not all the, the resources are limited and in the way that people understand or give us, and I'll say us from the community, the opportunity to express ourselves fully and actually deal with some of the struggles that we face and have an open, honest conversation or dialogue without freaking people out. I was, you know what you're talking about. If I said, if I sat out with a psych, it'd be like, you know, you'd have PTSD by the time we're done. The problem is if I lay out what I actually feel inside, I'm going to hit all the trigger words. You know what I mean? They're going to be like, you know, well I gotta call somebody, I gotta, we gotta fix this. This guy's, you know, suicidal or this guy's, you know, homicidal or whatever. It's like, no, this is just my life. This is just the way I operate.

Yeah. I think that there's probably a bit of, what would you even call this, like a protective shell that everyone's in your position is able to put on, but I don't, is that healthy? That's the question, right? Is that something that is healthy and I'm not totally sure that it is. I think maybe it serves a purpose, but I think that it's also probably, there's probably a problem that I don't think most people can switch it on and switch it off. I think that's the biggest issue. That's the biggest problem is it's hard to turn it off. Then when you're at your daughter's graduation, it's just still there. And so yes, it sort of protects you, but is that something that you actually, is that healthy for you mentally?

Yeah, it does. It actually work for you longterm? I mean it is, it's like we've, you know, I, I re relate it back to when I was a kid when I was three or four or five now my mom would always laugh at me because there's two things I played growing up. Fireman and army. Like that was it. And I had to put on blue corduroys to play fireman and then go change into Brown corduroys if I wanted to play army, like I had to be in context, if you will. Right? Even as a kid, and I think I've looked at that skill right now. If I take that as a skillset, how do I pull it on when I put on my uniform or when I put something on, it's like, okay, here's where I am. This is who I am for this period in time. And when I take it off, I'm no longer that right now I am transitioning into husband, wife, mom, dad, son, brother, friend, hanging out or whatever it might be.

Yeah. That's got to be tricky and also mentally taxing, and I think that's very problematic because I don't think a lot, I don't think a lot of people really know that, including the people that are doing this, you know, that are in your position, know that there is such a cognitive cost, a psychological cause to making that switch. It's not just leave it at home. If you're shoving it down, it's like eating Brussels sprouts. If you don't like those, right, you're, you're cramming it in there and it wants to pop back out and it's all you're devoting cognitive bandwidth, brain power to keeping it from popping out, and that's unhealthy because it's stressful for you. It's taxing for you.

It's wearing, it's wearing. I mean, I think that's where I look now at 45 exhausted most times. Right. If you actually, if I'm honest with myself and with people around me, it's like I'm just worn out.

Yeah, I can imagine. And you're not going to rest well if you're consistently working on made to, I don't want to, I'm trying not to talk last here. If you just keep on pushing something down, you're not going to have, let's say you spend 10% of your cognitive bandwidth trying to push it down. 90% of you is there. So being present is tough. Um, focusing on self care is like last priority cause you're just trying not to screw up the family party by being a weirdo or whatever. Right? There's all kinds of stuff that that happens as a result of that, that that is invisible and that's, that's the problem. That's what's unhealthy. It's invisible. It's, that's what makes it insidious. That's the word I'm looking for. It's insidious. You don't see it coming because you think everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine. And then you're just like, why the hell am I tired constantly?

How come I can't relax? And then it just, they throw a label on it like, Oh it's part of your PTSD or it's like residual trauma. And it's like, yeah, but the real truth is that you, you can't relax, you're not focused, you're constantly monitoring your surroundings even though you're in your own living room. Like that's super unhealthy. And I don't, I don't think maybe it doesn't affect everybody, but certainly people that have seen combat or conflict or people that are on this street every day, you know, like that type of stuff that doesn't just go away. And you even see it when, when a police officers and military or retired, there's, it just doesn't go away. And I think because as an evolutionary strategy, the people that survived to, to reproduce were the people that didn't shut that stuff down so easily or forget it. So. Right. They were constantly vigilant. I don't think some Roman soldier really necessarily retired and lived out the rest of his years. They probably were, I don't know, back then, dead at 30 max at or no.

Well, yeah, you lose all value. I mean, in a sense a truck goes away, you lose all value. And that's where I've really looked at it to say, and you know, you brought up an interesting point where there are a lot of labels that go with us, right? It's, Oh, that's just PTSD, or Oh, you must have done something or you must have seen something. It's like, no, it's just this, this constant inability to transition effectively to kind of settle myself and to turn it off. Right. To bring the volume switch down a little bit. Um, you know, that's been the interesting exploration for me. Now, understanding kind of the biological factors that go into play, uh, deep inside in the way we are trained and developed. And then of course, you know, childhood trauma and everything else that comes into play for us. We just aren't given the tool to ebb and flow in this life that we've chosen.

And yeah, it's more, it's more exhaustion. It's more, you know, self-driven stuff than it is any incident or seeing something or participating in something cause a greater population. You know, you've got chose to put on a uniform. I chose to go to combat or I chose to run in that burning building or I choose to save lives. I choose to do these things and going back to kind of where we started, it's like when you, when you call me a hero or when you elevate me, it almost dismisses what I do in a way. Does that make sense to you? I mean, what do you think about that?

Um, can you clarify that a little? I need to make sure I know what you're, yeah,

so, so for instance, you know, we talked about this internal struggle between like not wanting to be called a hero or not wanting to be acknowledged so much. You know, cause for me, I'm laying in bed hoping your house burns down or you know, I want to go to the next thing I want to call out on my SWAT team. I want to do these things. I want violence to occur out there in the world. And when you then call me a hero or you elevate me because of what I've chosen to do, that creates that separation right. Internally from kind of the external view of who I am. But in doing that, also, what I'm trying to struggle and balance with is like the acceptance of myself and myself in the, my place in society. It's, I feel like there's this unspoken expectation that says, you know, if we're a firefighter or a cop, you know, we're committed to service.

We're committed to the people around us, you know? Yeah, we're there to save you. Yeah, we're heroes. But internally, I don't think any of us feel that way at all and we don't know how to express stuff very well. I mean, we're, I had one of the guys on the show not too long ago that literally like at 16 you know, he started riding firetrucks 16 and they ran a house fire people inside trapped and burned up and the chief sat him down in the car, pulled out a six pack of beer and says, okay, this is how you're going to solve it. You know, and no wonder he's an alcoholic later in life. Right? Yeah. Dude, that's the world, man. That's the world we live in.

Yeah, that's a, that's problematic. If people are, and I'm sure that's the exception and not the rule, I hope it is. But if those are the tools that sort of the tools of the trade that you learn when you start the job or yeah, just hit the gym extra hard tomorrow, you know, like, okay, but that's a bandaid on a bullet hole. And that's very problematic because what happened, not just that it doesn't work, but then people think, man, you know, I am having a drink with the guys and burning off some steam. I am hitting the gym, I am going for a run, but I still feel kind of shitty. Something is wrong with me. And that's the dangerous part. Not like, Hey, this tool is not working. I gotta find something else. Because you know, this isn't working for everyone. Maybe we should research this. It's, this isn't working for me, but I serve shit. Don't want to be the guy that walks in and is like, I feel bad. Right. Maybe that's not the culture.

It's absolutely not the culture. I mean that's, and that's where I think we're finally, you know, we're just, I mean we are, you know, this is partly why it's interesting to have you on the show because in this, in the entrepreneur space, right? I mean it's like you and I hanging out at MMT in park city, just kind of taking a break, sitting out on the balcony, bullshitting, right? In this, in this flip side of the world, there's a lot of advancement, a lot of development, a lot of openness around self discovery and what's happening and emotion and freedom around that. And, and that's, that's becoming very much more mainstream than it used to be. But our audience, I mean, we're still antiquated. I mean, we're still in the dark ages when it comes to that stuff. Like we are just on the cusp of these conversations flowing out across the, across these communities. Cause it is, it's, it is, shut it down, shove it down, deal with it. Um, suck it up, buttercup. I mean, those are the, that's the, that's the training. That's the conversation. And I've said for years, you know, the only acceptable emotion in these worlds is anger, right? You can't be too happy. You can't cause then you're fucking off. You can't be sad because then you're weak. But you can be as angry as you want to be. And I think that perpetuates. It's like it's a self perpetuating cycle we're dealing with constantly.

Yeah. Th the anger is an issue. And I think a lot of guys just men in general have this as a default because we're not necessarily taught good emotional communication. And a lot of us are less wired for that in a way. And then lean on that and go, wow, where a guy, you know, and so I, I don't know about you, but my dad, his diff, he's a great guy by the way, just to clarify. But he's his default communication when he's frustrated a little bit sad, feeling a little bit stressed, feeling a little bit rushed, feeling like he is a little silly because he forgot something. He just goes and gets angry because he doesn't have the other channels. Right? Like he doesn't have the other modes. It's like he's got red and, and you're like, Hey, color this in blue. And he's like, uh, red. Right. He just can't do it. So there's fun dad. And then there's like angry dad and then there's normal dad, but there's not like sort of down today dad, there's just really short temper and shorter temper and that's no, that's sort of normal for him. His dad was the same way. All the guys in our family are the same way and I'm fighting that all the time.

Man. You just described me to a T really the majority of the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's been difficult. I mean, I did the work with Elliot road kind of release the anger stuff, which really helps significant crazy, you know, the, on the hypnotherapy side. But it's, it's difficult. And for me, what I've noticed is it's really driven by this sense of anxiety and anxiety around not being good enough for everybody around me. Yeah, that's, that's problematic. But it's also thanks normal as well, if that makes sense. Yeah. Well, and that's, and that is, and that's kind of right. That's the purpose behind some of this show is to kind of normalize this, this conversation that says, okay, that's, yes, it's a problem. Yes. You know, it's an issue that needs attention and you're not abnormal. Right? You're not the only one feeling that way. And, and I like that you said that it's, it is, uh, there's a big man issue there around it cause it is, I mean we weren't really, we're taught to be, to create physical safety really well. We're not taught to create kind of emotional safety for the people around us at all. And a lot of ways

it's a good point. And additionally, I mean even in addition to that, not only are you not taught to create psychological safety, it's not even prioritized. You know, you're not even doing it for yourself, let alone for other people. It would be different if we were also self if we were centered and grounded and you know, felt good about ourselves and that it was just, Oh, we're just sort of selfish as guys. It's like, no, we're not even creating that for ourselves, let alone for other people. And you can't really create it for other people until you create it in yourself. You know, we, we think we're fooling everyone and our kids raising these kids and we're like, yeah, I just want my daughter to be confident. Yeah. I just want my son to be [inaudible] when they see your example and you think, Oh, I'm putting on a brave face.

Okay fine. But after like age seven, they can tell. Right. And then he spent 20 years being like, I'm faking it. It's like, no, your kids are like, yeah, my dad, you know, he doesn't really take care of himself. You know, he's always stressed out. We think we're putting on a brave face and it's just so obvious cause you know, the cracks show, especially when they're sitting around at the dinner table and you blow up because they mentioned they didn't finish their project and before they finish their sentence telling you that they got an extra week for it, you start talking about how they didn't get their work done, dammit. You know, and like they're just hold up dad, we got an extension. Oh, you know, it's like that kind of thing. The cracks start to show, or when we massively overreact to something that they've done and they realize that that isn't normal.

Or they see other people acting normal or they're just like, why is this the case with my dad? Oh, you know, mom says it's something from work. Like kids are smart. It's, there's, someone told me, uh, you have to be really careful when you have guns in the house, right? Because kids will get their hands on it and the retort is always, no, I have a gun safe. And it's, did you know the combination to any of your parents' stuff when you were a kid and the answers yeah. By age 11, 13, 15 years old. So the key isn't, don't let the kids have the combination that against safe. It's, by the time they're obviously going to have figured out what that is. They know how to use a gun safely. Right. That's the, that's how you keep them safe. Not, not by telling them, not by diluting yourself that they have no idea how to get in there. Cause you the same fricking safe code as you do on your iPhone. So when they candy crush, you're telling them the code, right? Like they, they're onto you buddy. You know,

I knew all my dad's stuff was, I'm, yeah. At a very young age. Let me ask you a question. What have been a couple of your favorite episodes this year that you've done? I mean there's, we're closing out 2019 kind of related to any of this stuff. What do you, what have you taken away from your experiences this year in all the shows that you've done?

Yeah, I've done some really interesting ones in the past year especially. There's one with Jack Barsky who was a undercover KGB spy who came to America at posing as an American and he later decided that he loved America so much he was just going to stay here. And he, he ended up never getting caught up until recently actually, well after the Soviet union had fallen. And so that's a really interesting story. It just kind of shows that if you ever feel like, Oh man, this country has gone to hell in a hand basket. You know, it's nice to see somebody from the outside who's essentially one of our sworn enemies, you know, coming in and going, actually this place is great for all these different reasons that I think a lot of people don't think about every day. Um, we had Admiral James DaVita's come on and talk about character that's a, he's an interesting guy because of course he's that, he was the NATO Supreme allied commander.

So that's kind of a big deal to have somebody come on and talk about that sort of stuff from straight from the horse's mouth, you know, had a lot of opportunity to do bad things and, and didn't, and uh, man, we had a guy from catch me if you can, uh, the inspiration from cashmere, if you can, that movie with Leonardo DiCaprio. We had a Frank Abignail come on and discuss the psychology behind some of the, the cons and the imposter stuff that he was doing. And so the shows run a wide gamut. Even recently we had general Robert Spalding about how China is essentially looking to overtake America with technology, but also the spy, where that's going in some of the, and how the Chinese communist party really does have it out for us. And it's very well documented. It's not a secret. We're kind of the only ones that are sleeping on.

So we've done a lot of really great shows that show that both things are both going in the right direction but also need to be maintained, right? Like we need to pay attention to the direction that we take our society and our country and ourselves. Because all of those things are integral to maintaining democracy. Like we can't just work on self-development, but we also can't just be paranoid about everything around it. It's like we really have to work on the whole picture. That's really, really crucial to do. So, eh, don't we risk our, our whole, our whole way of being.

Yeah, I'm mad and I think that's what I really enjoy about your show. You know? And again, part of the, my mission, I feel like bring people into my world. You know, they may not, they may not listen to Jordan harbinger. They may not know you exist. Uh, cause it's kinda not in their bandwidth being able to bring resources and tools to the table for the men and women out there that are doing their jobs every day. You know, you've got some phenomenal stuff out there that I know would make a difference in their life.

Well, thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate it. I'd love that people are listening to podcasts more now and if they're interested in this and maybe they'll be interested in the Jordan harbinger show and I'm on social media at Jordan harbinger on Twitter, Instagram, et cetera. So I'd love to hear from everybody. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate the opportunity. It's a lot of fun and talking with you is always fun.

Hey man. Yeah, we just need to hang out more often and clearly now. I owe you a nice dinner and I'm going to try to be in San Diego again while you're there, but, and I'll make sure that all the links are up on the show notes. Uh, that, uh, all the links to your a one year podcast, but then, uh, Jordan harbinger.com, uh, your links to Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all the good stuff. Uh, and I know that you're, uh, I think sometimes we feel like people are untouchable or unreachable in the world. You know what I mean? And I want my listeners to know that I know you're a pretty responsive guy and you know, you offer a lot and you're really committed to, uh, bring in a conversation to the table in a variety of ways that helps solve problems everyday for people, you know, kind of the every day. That's what I really appreciate about what you do.

Well, thank you very much man. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to everybody and like I said, it's always fun to chat, so don't be a stranger.

Hey brother, I really appreciate you joining us today. All right,

that wraps up our show and matter of fact, the last show of 2019, happy new year again, Jordan harbinger. Brother. Thank you for giving us your time coming on this show. Uh, educating me and us giving us your thoughts and your insights and really a summary of everything that you've been able to accomplish over this last year. I appreciate it so, so much. I hope everybody had a great 2019 or at least you're still here. You asked me 20 that year. 15 was a pretty much a shit show in a lot of ways, but a lot of great things came out of it and I'm looking forward to an entire new year to really blow this thing up. So a couple of little things. One, we're going to continue with the Tuesday, Thursday podcast episodes starting in 2020 for the month of January. We're going to be dealing with the operational pillar.

Number two, mental acuity has some great guests lined up throughout the month. Really some phenomenal episodes, some great tools and lessons and things to learn and practical application. Please do me a favor, keep sending me your notes, your feedback, your thoughts on what we're doing and how we're doing it and if it's working for you or not. The last big thing is I need your support and keeping this show up and running, keeping things moving and giving back to you. A lot of you have asked for more, for more depth, for training, for etc. And we've got to figure out how to do that. So I put together your a hundred day operational challenge. It's available at mindsetradio.com or you can go to mindsetradio.com/opyourlife. That's Opie your life. It's a go nation basis because this podcast is a part of the operation mindset foundation. So there's some options to do that. And if for right now, for some reason you want to take on the program and you just can't swing that donation, send me an email and we'll talk about it.

I'm really looking forward to bringing people into that program. We're going to begin January 15th as a group and after that you'll be able to sign up any point in time and it'll run for you and not a problem. So that'll be up in live starting January 15th make sure you get in, register early so that we can know who's coming in. Get some things set up. It's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a freaking ball Buster, but I promise you at the end of the a hundred days there is gold at the end of that rainbow. So I look forward to you joining me. Thanks for listening. As always, do me a favor, share this podcast out. Share it with those your work, those you love, those you like and hell. Even though she can't stand, maybe they'll shift some contacts for them.

So thanks for giving me a great year, your time, your attention, your listening and your feedback. I greatly appreciate it. Thanks to all the sponsors and stepped out this year and really supported us. Roofers, Elliot Rose at the prime mind app, chief Miller apparel and all the others that just showed support across the board. I greatly appreciate it. I'm looking forward to having the conversation in the new year with you. Bring us some new guests, new tools, new techniques, and some real practical application routes from stop again, don't forget to swing by out mindset.com check out the foundation in 2020 we're going to be out on the road quite a bit, teaching a lot of the programming that's out there. So if you want to bring something to your department, pop in, fill out the grant app, and let's get this. I already started, so it's all there and available for you. Let's really elevate the conversation of how we perform at the top of our game, mentally, physically, and emotionally in all aspects of our life for 2020 that's the mission. I hope you'll join me for it. That's it. Have a great safe new year and we will talk to you soon.