We Make Money Fun
96 episodes - English - Latest episode: 9 months ago - ★★★★★ - 2 ratingsWe Make Money Fun is a podcast hosted by Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial in Phoenix, Arizona. Shanna strongly believes that the best way to manage your money is to make it fun, not burdensome. In this podcast, we explore financial, and investment planning and talk about legislation that impacts your money and talk with clients of Heritage about how they were able to achieve success.
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Episodes
The Epidemic - Parents taking care of grown kids
August 08, 2023 14:30 - 24 minutes - 22.5 MBWe all have a family culture where parents take care of their children until they grow up, sometimes allowing them to neglect their responsibilities because they are with us. In this episode, Melisa Horn and Alden Rowe from Heritage Financial Strategies discussed an article that reveals 45% of adult children receive financial support from their parents, even after graduating college. The support includes groceries, rent, tuition fees, and more. The conversation touches on the impact of eco...
Why the S&P 500 Is Not A Diversified Investment Strategy
July 25, 2023 14:30 - 7 minutes - 7.42 MBIn investing, it is important to explore alternative options in order to minimize the risk of losses. In this episode, I discussed the S&P 500, a stock market index measuring the performance of the 500 largest companies listed on the US stock exchange. Additionally, it is crucial to consider other investment options as relying solely on the S&P entails greater risk, given its potential fluctuations on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. Therefore, for a diversified investment strategy, it is...
Tony & René Steelman
July 11, 2023 14:30 - 10 minutes - 10 MBEver wondered why everyone who has a personal financial planner says it’s a game changer? In today’s episode, Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies introduces Tony and Renée, a retired couple living in Arizona and long-standing clients of hers. As former business owners, they know it is a must to have a financial specialist, especially in the economy we live in today. They found Shanna through Dave Ramsey's SmartVestor Pro program and felt comfortable choosing her as their go-to exp...
From Accounting to Helping Our Clients Build Confidence in their Financial Plans
June 27, 2023 14:33 - 11 minutes - 10.5 MBHaving a partner who supports you not only in your personal life but also in your business endeavors can bring numerous benefits. From shared goals and mutual support to leverage complementary skills and the ability to navigate challenges together, a partner can enhance both your personal and professional growth. Eric Tingom, the Director of Technology and Tax Strategy and Shannon's husband and business partner at Heritage Financial Strategies discusses his background in accounting, finance...
Wendy Rios
June 13, 2023 14:30 - 13 minutes - 12.1 MBFor Wendy Rios, being riddled with debt and financial uncertainty was no longer an option. She wanted to visit the land of financial peace. Her dream became a reality when she and her husband deep-dived into Financial Coach Dave Ramsey's Baby Steps Framework.Wendy and her husband paid down a substantial amount of debt following Dave's system and applying hard work and persistence. Still, they knew they needed the help that only a professional could provide. That's when Wendy reached out to o...
How To Graduate from College in 4 Years, Debt Free
May 29, 2023 14:30 - 18 minutes - 18.6 MBMany students are burdened with student loan debt, with 70% of college graduates in the United States having an average debt of over $30,000. As a parent, we all want to see our children succeed and accomplish their goals, especially when it comes to their education. However, with the rising costs of tuition and living expenses, many students are forced to take out student loans, which can burden them with debt for years to come. Our guest in this episode is Juan Te Dailey, who achieved th...
Bart Wensink & Lori Durham-Wensink
May 09, 2023 14:30 - 17 minutes - 15.8 MBThere are several advantages to getting started with financial planning early and focusing on it with a financial expert. However, we all always have questions about this issue. Today, Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies and her two clients, Bart and Lori, are talking about the importance of early financial planning with a financial expert, and this podcast leads to Shanna, Bart, and Lori talking about how their relationships developed in the past through consultation on financial...
What can we learn from celebrities?
April 25, 2023 14:30 - 9 minutes - 8.36 MBWhat Do Tom Brady, Usain Bolt, Stephen Curry, Mike Tyson, John McEnero, and Dennis Rodman Have in Common? They were all victims of financial mismanagement, where their money was stolen or misappropriated by the companies or individuals they entrusted to manage it. Olympic runner Usain Bolt is the latest among this group to experience this misfortune - he recently had nearly 13 million dollars taken from him over a 13-year period. Tom Brady lost 650 million with FTX, Steven Curry lost 160 mi...
Liza Maldonado & Mark Durrick
April 11, 2023 14:30 - 12 minutes - 11.5 MBMark and Lizza, two of Shanna's clients, are introduced, as well as the returning listeners to the broadcast. Mark, a Heritage Planning customer for a number of years, explains why he chose to work with a planner. He adds that he needed assistance in handling his finances and providing for his family. Lizza chose Heritage Planning because she believed the business could offer her the finest support. Lizza and Mark talk about Mark's firm being sold and the journey to retirement. They discuss...
Shanna's Health Journey
March 28, 2023 14:35 - 17 minutes - 15.6 MBIn this podcast, I’m joined by my Naturopath Dr. Kasey Nichols of Onyx Integrative Medicine in Gilbert, and we will be discussing how I took physical and financial steps towards a healthier lifestyle, starting in mid 2021. I began by taking blood tests following a diagnosis of dangerously low iron from my primary care doctor. I was referred to a hematologist and booked in for an iron infusion that same week. Then the journey began. I underwent hormone testing which showed something unexpec...
Chris Coates
March 14, 2023 14:45 - 9 minutes - 8.75 MBOn this episode of Making Money Fun, Christina talked about what it was like, leading up to, and finally working with Heritage Financial Strategies on planning life for her family after retirement. She shared why they decided to hire a planner and why they chose Heritage. She also shared that she was diagnosed with a degrative brain disease and had brain surgery, and that hastened their need to make sure they would be financially ok, even if she couldn’t return to work. Their most sign...
Secure Act 2.0
March 01, 2023 13:00 - 6 minutes - 5.87 MBSecure Act 2.0: An Overview The Secure Act of 2019 was the biggest legislative change to retirement planning since 2006, and it quickly became overshadowed by the COVID-19 pandemic. But Secure Act 2.0 brings even more changes that could significantly impact how you plan for your retirement. Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) Under the Secure Act, the age at which individuals must withdraw money from certain retirement accounts has changed. The RMD age has now been set at 72 for anyone ...
How Lisa was able to retire at 42 using good financial planning
February 14, 2023 14:00 - 14 minutes - 13.4 MBWhy Your Vision Board Should Include a Financial Planner: Getting into the Nitty Gritty with Lisa and Shanna Ever wished that you had your very own guardian angel to help you navigate the course of your finances? Well, look no further because your wish has been granted! Join us and our guest, Lisa, on this episode as she shares her personal experience and journey towards building and improving the financial health of she and her partner, Nick. A loyal client of over 8 years, Lisa is a heal...
A look back at 2022 and forward to 2023 in the markets
January 17, 2023 19:06 - 13 minutes - 12.6 MBIt's been a turbulent year for investors in 2022, as the Federal Reserve took action against inflation and the stock market reacted to changes in the discount rate. This resulted in a rare phenomenon of both equities and bonds selling off simultaneously - but even during recessionary periods, the stock market has had a positive return on average. 2023 looks optimistic, with no two down years occurring consecutively, but investors must remain diversified and use tax-efficient strategies. Desp...
Meet the Team - Melisa Horn
January 03, 2023 21:35 - 14 minutes - 13.4 MBToday’s show is about Melisa Horn, a highly experienced financial professional with over 30 years of experience in banks and credit unions. As Financial Coach with Mindful Money Financial Coaching, Melisa helps clients with budgeting and financial education. Additionally, as Brand Ambassador for Heritage Financial Strategies, she shares her expertise in making the most of their money. With a strong focus on customer service excellence, Melisa goes above and beyond to ensure everyone receives...
What To Do With a Windfall
November 15, 2022 13:00 - 11 minutes - 10.1 MBA windfall is money that comes to you suddenly, often unexpectedly. This could be an inheritance, settlement, lottery winnings, or even stock in the form of a company IPO. Today, Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies and Jon Gay discuss what to do with a windfall, and some very costly mistakes to avoid. 70% of people who come into large sums of money lose it within a few years! If you know a windfall is coming, be honest. For example, if you're anticipating an inheritance, talk...
Are Women Feeling More Financial Pressure?
November 01, 2022 13:00 - 5 minutes - 4.73 MBShanna Tingom has long sensed - in herself as well as her clients, that women are struggling with their financial health. Many feel they haven't contributed as much as they'd like to their retirement plan. This money has gone to other places that Shanna explains, particularly since the start of COVID. Three main factors playing into all of this are inflation, low consumer confidence, and changes around access to reproductive healthcare. 59% of women stress about money once a week, and 43%...
The Employee Retention Credit (ERC) Explained
October 18, 2022 13:00 - 16 minutes - 15.5 MBShanna Tingom's guest today is Aaron Witten of Witten Financial. His firm specializes in helping businesses use the Employee Retention Credit (ERC) related to COVID. He's here to walk us through it. The ERC started with the CARES Act in April of 2020, but it was revised in December of 2020, and again under "Build Back Better" in February of 2021. The latest revision includes the language: “if your business was fully or partially impacted by a governmental shutdown order." This makes it ...
What's Going On With The Market?
October 06, 2022 21:33 - 10 minutes - 9.46 MBAs we turn the calendar to October, the markets continue to show signs of volatility. Today, Shanna and Jon are here to explore what's happened since our last check in, 3 months ago. In September, the Fed raised the interest rate another 0.75%. What does that mean for our listeners, and are we closer to a recession than we were a quarter ago? While that's not an easy question to answer, it's important to look at what makes our current condition unique. This includes household debt to ass...
Student Loan Forgiveness: Everything You Wanted to Know
September 20, 2022 13:00 - 12 minutes - 11.1 MBStudent loan forgiveness was announced a few weeks ago by the Biden administration. What are the pros and cons? Are you eligible? How does it work? Shanna Tingom from Heritage Financial Strategies is here to answer those questions today. Shanna and Jon agree this plan is a good step in the right direction to help many Americans get back on their feet financially, so they'll have more money they can spend, and get out from crippling student loan debt. The plan doesn't address the root pr...
What Happened to Crypto?
September 06, 2022 13:00 - 8 minutes - 7.44 MBWhat the heck happened to Crypto? Over the past couple of years, there have been many headlines around crypto. And recently, the market, as well as various cryptocurrencies, have dropped off sharply. Shanna Tingom starts by breaking down some numbers, and what's behind them. We also talk about the legal troubles faced both by a big-name backer of crypto, as well as a popular trading app. And what about taxes? What are the tax implications for people who buy and sell cryptocurrencies...
Inflation Reduction Act Explained
August 23, 2022 13:00 - 10 minutes - 9.47 MBWhat is the Inflation Reduction Act, and how will it affect you? Shanna Tingom and Jon break down this new legislation, which the President signed into law shortly before we recorded this episode. First, this will not affect Roth conversions or so-called "back door" Roth IRA contributions. Shanna gives us a refresher on what's involved with those strategies and moves. We also talk about tax rates, and how the Inflation Reduction Act will affect health care and prescription drug prices. ...
Why Everyone Needs A Coach
August 09, 2022 13:00 - 9 minutes - 8.57 MBShannon Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies is talking about coaches today. Multi-millionaire athletes have them. Successful CEO's have them. We can all use them - in various aspects of our lives. Coaches can be hired to help solve a short-term problem, or on a longer term basis. Shanna, in her business, has coaches for business and personal leadership. In the past, she's also worked with career, relationship, and even financial coaches! (Yes, you read that right.) This leads to S...
What Shanna Learned From Catching COVID
July 26, 2022 13:00 - 10 minutes - 9.33 MBRecently, Shanna Tingom and her family contracted COVID-19. Fortunately, symptoms were relatively minor and everyone is OK. However, being sick and quarantined to a hotel room really gave our podcast host some perspective. What if something happened to her, and she wasn't around? The last 2 1/2 years have taught us that anything can happen to anyone - whether it's a worldwide pandemic or being hit by the proverbial bus tomorrow. Shanna realized there was part of her estate plan that...
What the Phoenix Suns Taught Shanna
July 12, 2022 13:00 - 9 minutes - 9.1 MBSorry to remind you of this, but the Phoenix Suns had a great season - until they didn't. Everything looked great, until an epic, epic collapse in Game 7 against Dallas. You may think you've got smooth sailing with your financial future, and then the unexpected happens. Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies is a huge Suns fan, and this collapse got her thinking about her role as a financial advisor. What happens when the proverbial wheels come off? It's her job to re-assure h...
Are We Headed Toward a Recession?
June 27, 2022 17:35 - 11 minutes - 10.5 MBAre we headed toward a recession? Today, Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies breaks down that question. First, we define what a recession technically is. And Shanna explains why it's not necessarily a bad thing. And if we hit one, Shanna talks about why it will be completely different than any one we've experienced previously. This is tied to the current job market and supply chain issues. Jon asks Shanna the, no pun intended, million dollar question. Are we headed to a rec...
529 Plans
June 01, 2022 13:00 - 13 minutes - 19 MBToday, Alden Rowe is back with Jon Gay to talk about 529 savings plans - used for educational expenses. While some details vary between states, a 529 plan has special tax savings on the way in, and on its growth (similar to a Roth), as long as that money is being used for educational expenses. Sure, that includes tuition and room & board. But it can be applied to a number of other things, like textbooks, computers, off-campus housing (within reason), and even primary education up through ...
How to Apply for College Financial Aid
May 18, 2022 13:00 - 14 minutes - 13 MBThe team at Heritage Financial Strategies really takes a family approach to helping you with your finances. Today, we take that approach quite literally. Alden Rowe brings in his dad, Tom Rowe, who used work in a college's financial aid office. Going to college can be daunting enough, without figuring out how to pay for it. Tom walks us through the process, starting with the FAFSA - the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. The FAFSA can be found on FAFSA.gov, which redirects you to ...
How Pending Legislation Can Affect You
May 04, 2022 13:00 - 14 minutes - 13.1 MBThere are bills currently pending in Washington that can really affect you as both an investor and an employee. Today, Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies breaks them down to what you need to know. The first is what's being called The SECURE Act 2.0. You may remember that the original SECURE Act was passed by Congress in November 2019, shortly before the pandemic. Among other changes, it raised the age on RMD's - required minimum distributions. After dealing with COVID, the l...
Ukraine, Interest Rates, and the Supply Chain
April 20, 2022 16:24 - 11 minutes - 10.7 MBShanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies rejoins Jon Gay today to talk about the three driving forces that contributed to market volatility in the first quarter of 2022. The Russian Invasion of Ukraine Rising Interest Rates Global Supply Chain issues Shanna and Jon break down how each of these forces are affecting the market and your investments, and show why its as important as ever to stay diversified in your portfolio. We may know who the winners have been in the past - but we...
Meet the Heritage Financial Team: Anna and Karen
April 06, 2022 13:00 - 17 minutes - 15.7 MBAs we continue to meet more of the team at Heritage Financial Strategies, today, Jag sits down with Karen and Anna. You may have spoken to Karen Garcia on the phone if you've called the office. Anna Vollenweider is our director of financial planning. She's walked the walk, so she can talk the talk. Like others in our office, her personal experience informs her career path. We hear the story of how Anna found a kindred spirit in Karen, and how she's working to create a financial plan f...
Talking To Your Parents About Money
March 23, 2022 14:00 - 14 minutes - 13.3 MBIn the second of our two-part series on families and money, Samantha Jarvey of Heritage Financial Strategies is back to discuss the harder side of the conversation - talking to your parents. Estate planning is a difficult topic to broach because, well frankly, nobody wants to think about their own demise. Also, parents often feel they should be supporting their kids, not the other way around. But there are some important conversations you should be having with mom and dad while they are s...
Sam Jarvey: Talking To Your Kids About Money
March 09, 2022 14:00 - 15 minutes - 14.6 MBIn the first of a two-part series with Samantha Jarvey from Heritage Financial Strategies, we cover the importance of talking to your kids about money. Sam has kids of her own, and with her oldest, she's using the jar approach. She's teaching her daughter about saving, spending, even investing. Why do it now? Because kids' ideas around money are formed by age 7! And they pick things up from us, good and bad. However, teaching and learning don't end at age 7. We also cover how to tal...
Dana's Role As a Financial Coach
February 23, 2022 07:00 - 18 minutes - 16.8 MBWelcome to part two of our conversation with Heritage Financial Strategies' Dana Croschere, Today, Adam, Jon, and Dana talk specifically about what Dan's role is as a Financial Coach. A financial coach does not deal with investments. In fact, Dana herself has been a Heritage client in that regard. Her focus is on your budget. Her approach is value based spending - figuring out how to prioritize the things that are important to you - whether that's travel, dining out, or whatever "sets your...
Dana's Incredible Journey to being a Financial Coach
February 15, 2022 19:28 - 21 minutes - 20 MBDana Croschere is the newest member of the Heritage Financial Strategies team, joining us as a Financial Coach. And she has an incredible story of how she got here. In her 20's, Dana had a financial crime committed against her, when a boyfriend bought a boat and trailer in her name and took off. All of a sudden, she was faced with paying off big-ticket items she didn't even possess. Through tenacity and discipline, she was able to claw her way out of a desperate situation. Inspired by h...
Self Directed Brokerage Windows
January 19, 2022 14:00 - 11 minutes - 11 MBHeritage Financial Website: https://www.heritagefinancialaz.com/ Many of us put money away into our employer-sponsored retirement plans and forget about it. However, you may have more control over those investments than you think. Adam Miller and Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial Strategies explain how they work with their clients to make sure that their retirement plans and investments are best suited to their individual needs.
Pooled Employer Plans
January 05, 2022 14:00 - 17 minutes - 16.4 MBHeritage Financial Website: https://www.heritagefinancialaz.com/ Hayden Gerwein from Howard Capital Management is back today, joining Shanna Tingom and Adam Miller from Heritage Financial. And we are discussing Pooled Employer Plans - a way for small business owners to pool resources to offer retirement benefits to their employees. (Disclosure: The Heritage Financial Strategies Team will be using a PEP from Howard Capital for their employees beginning January 1, 2022.) Hayden explains ho...
Disability Insurance, Part 2
December 15, 2021 14:00 - 18 minutes - 16.8 MBHeritage Financial Website: https://www.heritagefinancialaz.com/ In part 2 of this series, Adam Miller of Heritage Financial Strategies welcomes back Disability Insurance expert Brock Falconer. There are other ways of being covered for a disability, including group plans through your employer and through social security. Brock explains the advantages to having these plans, but also their limitations. For example, social security claims -when approved, can often take 2 years. And if you...
Disability Insurance, Part 1
December 01, 2021 13:00 - 18 minutes - 17.1 MBHeritage Financial Website: https://www.heritagefinancialaz.com/ Adam Miller of the Heritage Financial Strategies team hosts this two part series, with guest Brock Falconer. Brock is an expert in the field of disability insurance, or DI. And Brock is one of the many strategic partners that Heritage works with in helping you plan your financial future. It's important to know that Disability Insurance is more than just coverage should you become permanently disabled. A DI claim can be fil...
Know all of your options for your retirement plan!
November 10, 2021 13:00 - 13 minutes - 12.8 MBHeritage Financial Website: https://www.heritagefinancialaz.com/ Today, Shanna Tingom is rejoined by Hayden Gerwien of Howard Capital Management. Did you know that you may have more control of your work retirement plan than you realize, including 401k, 403b, and 457 plans? A self directed brokerage account, or SDBA, allows you to utilize a third party money manager. About 40% of employers allow this in their retirement plans, including some large companies in the area, including ASU, U o...
What is a HCM-BuyLine® anyway?
October 27, 2021 13:00 - 14 minutes - 13 MBHeritage Financial Website: https://www.heritagefinancialaz.com/ Today, Shanna Tingom of Heritage Financial is joined by Hayden Gerwien of Howard Capital Management, a firm that Heritage works with closely for its clients. Howard Capital Management is a third party money manager, and Hayden gives us a bit of background on the company. Then explains their patented HCM-BuyLine® investment process. This is a computer algorithm that allow for a more tactical and defensive strategy to manage ...
Estate Attorney Heather Parker, Part 2
October 13, 2021 13:00 - 16 minutes - 15.2 MBThis is the second of a two part series with estate attorney Heather Parker of the Parker Law Office. Today, we take a deeper dive into the differences between wills and trusts. Trusts can provide for: How your bills will be paid if you are hospitalized A financial power of attorney A trustee to manage your assets Avoiding costly probate court costs And more... There are also different types of trusts, including pet trusts, and IRA trusts. The latter can be especially important in w...
How Our Move Is Like Finding a Financial Advisor
September 29, 2021 13:00 - 15 minutes - 14.2 MBHeritage Financial Strategies now has a new office space - but you won't have to reprogram your GPS. We've just moved downstairs. We are now on the first floor of our building on South Gilbert Road. The move was a several-months long process, and Shanna Tingom and the team realized it's similar to finding a financial advisor. They needed to find the right fit for their needs. They then worked with a general contractor to find the labor, parts, and tools that were uniquely suited to what ...
Estate Attorney Heather Parker Part 1
September 15, 2021 13:00 - 16 minutes - 15.3 MBThis is the first of a two-part series on estate planning. Attorney Heather Parker joins Shanna Tingom to talk about the two areas of estate planning - money and medical. Medical: HIPAA Release - who can be given information about your condition? Medical Power Of Attorney - who can make medical decisions for you? End of Life Documents - what are your final wishes in terms of treatment? Heather explains that not having these documents in place can have dire consequences, and she gives s...
Meet The Heritage Team: Sam
September 01, 2021 13:00 - 11 minutes - 10.5 MBToday Shanna Tingom introduces you to the newest member of the Heritage Financial Strategies team, Samantha Jarvey. A lifelong resident of Gilbert, Sam tells us about her background and her family. Shanna explains that the Heritage team wasn't hiring specifically, but when someone with Sam's background and experience reached out, they had to meet. For Sam, Heritage's focus on client relationships aligned with her personal philosophy when it comes to money management. Oh, and wait until...
Aaron Blau Part 2
August 17, 2021 13:00 - 13 minutes - 12.2 MBIn the second of our two part series with CPA Aaron Blau, we look at potential legislation under the Biden administration and what that could mean for you, your money, and your taxes. We start with a look back at the SECURE Act - how it raised the age for required minimum distributions and eliminated the so-called "Stretch IRA." Shanna asks Aaron what a potential "SECURE Act 2.0" could mean for RMDs and stretch IRAs going forward. We also look at potential changes to 529 Education Saving...
Aaron Blau Part 1
August 03, 2021 13:00 - 19 minutes - 18.2 MBIn the first of a two part series, Shanna Tingom is joined by CPA Aaron Blau to talk about recent tax changes and how they can affect your bottom line. First, Shanna and Aaron cover the rules around retirement distributions during 2020 - what you could take out, under what terms you have to pay it back, and how it will affect your taxes. We also cover economic impact payments (EIP's) for personal, and the economic injury disaster loans (EIDL's) for businesses. While grant money is gone, l...
Real Estate Market with Karen Camblin, Part 2
July 20, 2021 13:00 - 14 minutes - 13.3 MBToday, Karen Camblin from Guild Mortgage rejoins Shanna Tingom for part 2 of their conversation about the real estate market. In this episode, we are looking at the effects of the pandemic on the mortgage process. Most notably, it has become much more difficult for small business owners to qualify for mortgages. Because so many businesses failed during COVID-19, many banks are now requiring Profit and Loss (P&L) statements from business before approving mortgages. We also explore the worl...
Real Estate Market with Karen Camblin, Part 1
July 06, 2021 13:00 - 12 minutes - 11.2 MBIn the first of a two-part series, Karen Camblin from Guild Mortgage joins Shanna today to talk about the wild real estate market we've seen in recent months. Karen explains the dangers of qualifying for the highest loan you can, and why she takes a more practical approach. It's not about what you can approved for - it's about what you can pay every month. We then walk through credit checks, pre-approvals, and the entire process you undergo as a buyer. This includes explaining why you sh...
Positioning Yourself As a Real Estate Buyer
June 15, 2021 07:00 - 18 minutes - 17 MBIn part 2 of our series, Shanna Tingom is joined again by real estate agent Jean Pomeroy. In our last episode, we examined the current real estate market. Today, we look at strategies that you can employ as a buyer to get the home you want. You need to have a strategy, and that includes having a good real estate agent. That agent must also be a good negotiator! Jean shares some examples. Normally, Jean gives the advice of "you don't get what you don't ask for." But because we are in s...