Holy Friends Pursue Higher Truth with Rev. Kathleen McShane and Rabbi Elan Babchuck

Rev. Kathi McShane, a retired United Methodist pastor, and Rabbi Elan Babchuck, a millennial, experienced an immediate connection when they met, a Spirit connection that made them fast friends from the beginning. In this episode, they share how their friendship naturally manifested in Picking Up the Pieces: Leadership After Empire. They discuss the vision of the book, moving away from the pyramid model of leadership where power is centered around one person or a group of people and towards a shared power where every person can stretch toward the fullness of their God-given gifts, regardless of where they land on an organizational chart. Their vision of leadership, born of their friendship, shows how holy friendship truly benefits not only those in the friendship but blesses the whole world.

Poem from the Podcast

“Red Brocade” by Naomi Shihab Nye

The Arabs used to say,

When a stranger appears at your door,

feed him for three days

before asking who he is,

where he’s come from,

where he’s headed.

That way, he’ll have strength

enough to answer.

Or, by then you’ll be

such good friends

you don’t care.

Let’s go back to that.

Rice? Pine nuts?

Here, take the red brocade pillow.

My child will serve water

to your horse.

No, I was not busy when you came!

I was not preparing to be busy.

That’s the armor everyone put on

to pretend they had a purpose

in the world.

I refuse to be claimed.

Your plate is waiting.

We will snip fresh mint

into your tea.

(Nye, Naomi Shihab. “Red Brocade.” 19 Varieties of Gazelle: Poems of the Middle East, HarperCollins Publishers, 2005, pp. 40.)

Quotations

"I know I'm in a holy friendship when I feel in every interaction like I am so gifted by this person's presence in my life and what I want for him is only good. I think those are the same things that sound like love."

-    Rev. Kathleen McShane

We discuss:

A rabbi and a pastor, living on different coasts and born in different generations, form a holy friendship. (04:13)

The friends discuss the concept of a soul friend and their deep connection with each other. (11:30)

The two reflect on the spontaneous and immediate response that led them to collaborate on writing a book, believing it was something bigger than themselves. (13:51)

The friends reflect on the dynamics of power and friendship, highlighting the importance of humility, learning, and letting go of pride. (28:33)

The suggestion that religious organizations have the potential to experiment with alternative leadership models and add value to society. (34:43)

About 

Rev. Kathleen McShane is the director of Leadership and Innovation for Texas Methodist Foundation and Wesleyan Impact Partners. She retired from active ministry as an ordained Elder in the California-Nevada Conference of the United Methodist Church in 2022. She led four congregations and served eight years as the vice president for Institutional Advancement at the Pacific School of Religion. Before attending seminary, she was a civil litigator, practicing law in the San Francisco Bay Area. She co-founded the

Rev. Kathi McShane, a retired United Methodist pastor, and Rabbi Elan Babchuck, a millennial, experienced an immediate connection when they met, a Spirit connection that made them fast friends from the beginning. In this episode, they share how their friendship naturally manifested in Picking Up the Pieces: Leadership After Empire. They discuss the vision of the book, moving away from the pyramid model of leadership where power is centered around one person or a group of people and towards a shared power where every person can stretch toward the fullness of their God-given gifts, regardless of where they land on an organizational chart. Their vision of leadership, born of their friendship, shows how holy friendship truly benefits not only those in the friendship but blesses the whole world.

Poem from the Podcast

“Red Brocade” by Naomi Shihab Nye

The Arabs used to say,

When a stranger appears at your door,

feed him for three days

before asking who he is,

where he’s come from,

where he’s headed.

That way, he’ll have strength

enough to answer.

Or, by then you’ll be

such good friends

you don’t care.

Let’s go back to that.

Rice? Pine nuts?

Here, take the red brocade pillow.

My child will serve water

to your horse.

No, I was not busy when you came!

I was not preparing to be busy.

That’s the armor everyone put on

to pretend they had a purpose

in the world.

I refuse to be claimed.

Your plate is waiting.

We will snip fresh mint

into your tea.

(Nye, Naomi Shihab. “Red Brocade.” 19 Varieties of Gazelle: Poems of the Middle East, HarperCollins Publishers, 2005, pp. 40.)

Quotations

"I know I'm in a holy friendship when I feel in every interaction like I am so gifted by this person's presence in my life and what I want for him is only good. I think those are the same things that sound like love."

-    Rev. Kathleen McShane

We discuss:

A rabbi and a pastor, living on different coasts and born in different generations, form a holy friendship. (04:13)

The friends discuss the concept of a soul friend and their deep connection with each other. (11:30)

The two reflect on the spontaneous and immediate response that led them to collaborate on writing a book, believing it was something bigger than themselves. (13:51)

The friends reflect on the dynamics of power and friendship, highlighting the importance of humility, learning, and letting go of pride. (28:33)

The suggestion that religious organizations have the potential to experiment with alternative leadership models and add value to society. (34:43)

About 

Rev. Kathleen McShane is the director of Leadership and Innovation for Texas Methodist Foundation and Wesleyan Impact Partners. She retired from active ministry as an ordained Elder in the California-Nevada Conference of the United Methodist Church in 2022. She led four congregations and served eight years as the vice president for Institutional Advancement at the Pacific School of Religion. Before attending seminary, she was a civil litigator, practicing law in the San Francisco Bay Area. She co-founded the Changemaker Initiative, a small national movement of churches committed to empowering lay people to become compassion-driven changemakers like Jesus. 

Rabbi Elan Babchuck is the executive vice president at Clal, the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership, and the founding executive director of Glean Network, which partners with Columbia Business School. He is a sought-after thought leader, having delivered keynotes at stages ranging from TEDx to the US Army’s General Officer Convocation, published in The Atlantic, The Guardian, Washington Post, and Religion News Service, has a column for The Wisdom Daily, and he contributed to Meaning Making – 8 Values That Drive America’s Newest Generations (2020, St. Mary’s Press). He also serves as a founding partner of Starts With Us, a movement to counteract toxic polarization in America, and a founding research advisory board member of Springtide Research Institute, which focuses on spirituality, mental health, and Gen Z.

Rev. Kathleen McShane and Rabbi Elan Babchuck co-authored Picking Up the Pieces: Leadership after Empire (Fortress Press, to be published January 2024). The book offers a provocation to religious leaders to exercise institutional power more generously. It speaks to leaders ready to shift from organizational patterns that demand over-functioning and instead share power so that power multiplies.

Show Notes

Rev. Kathleen McShane is the director of Leadership and Innovation for Texas Methodist Foundation and Wesleyan Impact Partners. She retired from active ministry as an ordained Elder in the California-Nevada Conference of the United Methodist Church in 2022. She led four congregations and served eight years as the vice president for Institutional Advancement at the Pacific School of Religion. Before attending seminary, she was a civil litigator, practicing law in the San Francisco Bay Area. She co-founded the Changemaker Initiative, a small national movement of churches committed to empowering lay people to become compassion-driven changemakers like Jesus. 

Rabbi Elan Babchuck is the executive vice president at Clal, the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership, and the founding executive director of Glean Network, which partners with Columbia Business School. He is a sought-after thought leader, having delivered keynotes at stages ranging from TEDx to the US Army’s General Officer Convocation, published in The Atlantic, The Guardian, Washington Post, and Religion News Service, has a column for The Wisdom Daily, and he contributed to Meaning Making – 8 Values That Drive America’s Newest Generations (2020, St. Mary’s Press). He also serves as a founding partner of Starts With Us, a movement to counteract toxic polarization in America, and a founding research advisory board member of Springtide Research Institute, which focuses on spirituality, mental health, and Gen Z.

Rev. Kathleen McShane and Rabbi Elan Babchuck co-authored Picking Up the Pieces: Leadership after Empire (Fortress Press, to be published January 2024). The book offers a provocation to religious leaders to exercise institutional power more generously. It speaks to leaders ready to shift from organizational patterns that demand over-functioning and instead share power so that power multiplies.

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