Citywire: The WealthTech Show artwork

Citywire: The WealthTech Show

90 episodes - English - Latest episode: over 1 year ago -

They say that money changes everything. Well, so does technology. In this podcast, The WealthTech Show, we speak to the ground-breaking pioneers who are using tech tools and trends to shape the future of investing and financial planning.

With new solutions and trends popping up at a mind-boggling rate, we explore what this means for our everyday lives, as well as the wealth management and financial advice industries. Welcome to The WealthTech Show.

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Episodes

WealthTech Show yearly wrap-up

December 09, 2022 15:00 - 35 minutes - 49.4 MB

In the last ever episode of the Wealthtech Show, we bring you some highlights from our favourite 2022 episodes. In this clip you hear Yaela Shamberg talk about how her and her team at InvestCloud tried to buy the domain name ‘iCloud’ from a stubborn anonymous owner. Listen to the episode to hear Ian interview a plethora of guests – from Matt Hancock to Jamie Bartlett, Myron Jobson to Mary Agbesanwa.

How to break into the wealthtech market

September 09, 2022 10:02 - 49 minutes - 113 MB

For those without huge backing or a long-established entrepreneurial brand, breaking into the wealthtech market is a monumental task. In this week's episode, we speak to Anton Padmasiri and Shri Krishansen of WealthOS, who are trying to do just that. There are many obstacles to overcome for wealthtech startups. Funding, networking, marketing and product development all need to be on point, and even then there are few guarantees. Anton and Shri talk us through it, while also highligh...

Will wearable payments replace bank cards?

August 26, 2022 08:45 - 32 minutes - 29.9 MB

Terrie Smith, who led the development of the technology behind Google Pay and Apple Pay, joins us to discuss the evolution of wearable payments. Terrie believes that, in time, most of us will ditch our bank cards in favour of using digitally enabled jewellery, keyrings, or clothing. Terrie also discusses developments in verification technology, which will play a key role in paytech evolution. She outlines how this technology helps to verify the provenance of luxury items and expl...

Why the pensions dashboard is big news for UK personal finance

August 19, 2022 08:45 - 25 minutes - 59.1 MB

Several pension schemes have expressed dismay at the 2024 launch date for the pensions dashboard, but why? In this episode, Jonathan Hawkins from Bravura explains that schemes have no excuses for not having their data ready, and also outlines that opacity has been in the best interests of those offering little value to customers. We also look at the good that dashboards can bring. Like never before, UK pension holders will be able to see what's really going on with their investments...

'I declare a recession': Thoughts on a dismal year for tech stocks

August 12, 2022 08:44 - 35 minutes - 80.6 MB

It's been a testing year for tech investors. To give this comment some context, take note that the Nasdaq 100 is down almost 20% this year, due largely to the slashed valuations in big tech. Tech start-ups are not immune from the downturn either, with closer scrutiny being applied to business models and balance sheets. Dan Kemp, global CIO at Morningstar Investment Management, joins The Wealthtech Show this week to help us make sense of it all. Will the downturn be here for long? Do...

'The frontier of innovation': How fintech is changing our financial lives

August 05, 2022 09:00 - 28 minutes - 64.9 MB

Fintech is changing the way we engage with money. For those of us in financial services, it's also changing our careers. In this week's WealthTech Show, Mary Agbesanwa, fintech growth lead at Seccl and founder of the 'Now You're Talking' networking group, discusses the impact of embedded finance and the democratisation of finance - trends that will overhaul parts of our sector. We also discuss opportunities for ambitious millennials in fintech. Mary explains that this market puts pe...

From BBC podcast to FBI's most wanted: The next steps of the Missing Cryptoqueen

July 29, 2022 08:45 - 40 minutes - 55.4 MB

It would not be hyperbole to describe the OneCoin scam as a 'once in a lifetime' story for a journalist. When Jamie Bartlett started his investigation of it, he began a journey that would lead to the uncovering of a $4 billion Ponzi scheme, a hit BBC podcast, and the titular Missing Cryptoqueen, Dr. Ruja Ignatova, appearing on the FBI's top 10 most wanted list.    In this episode of The Wealthtech Show, Jamie explains what's happened since the last episode of the podcast series wh...

Better tech makes for better business

July 22, 2022 08:50 - 35 minutes - 48.9 MB

It really is as simple as that. In this episode intelliflo CEO Nick Eatock explains why tech savvy financial advisers outperform their peers by a country mile. Using intelliflo’s eAdviser Index, he makes it clear that great use of tech equals more clients, more revenue, and more profit. Eatock speaks from experience and knowledge. Having founded intelliflo 17 years ago, he’s grown the busines into a market leader. With great power comes great responsibility though – accordingly, ...

Walk the talk: Why fintech recruiters should think outside the box

July 15, 2022 08:09 - 35 minutes - 81.7 MB

Ever seen those laughable job ads that offer entry-level salaries in return for a minimum of five years’ experience? Well, the fintech industry isn’t quite so bad, but there is a bottleneck of talent. It’s caused in part by employers focusing on the most qualified, and by high barriers to entry for new starters. Nadia Edwards-Dashti, chief customer officer at Harrington Starr, explains why recruiters can help themselves and the industry by focusing on potential. She also discusses ...

Is asset management tech up to scratch?

July 08, 2022 08:44 - 20 minutes - 33.6 MB

Asset managers oversee more than $100 trillion globally, but is the technology behind their propositions fit for purpose? Lorelei Skillman, chief communications officer for investment management platform Enfusion, flies in from New York to share her thoughts. You would expect an industry that manages trillions to be at the cutting edge but that is often not the case. Legacy technology persists and many fund managers aren’t able to track their investments in real-time. Is it time f...

Can tech help with the cost-of-living crisis?

June 24, 2022 11:00 - 33 minutes - 76 MB

The UK is currently at the mercy of rising inflation, rents, household bills and taxes. Is there anything that technology can do to make peoples' financial situations more promising? In this episode we welcome Myron Jobson, senior personal finance analyst at Interactive Investor. We outline the situation at hand, while discussing how physical cash, apps, social media, FOMO and buy-now-pay-later can influence spending and saving habits.

Crypto culture, regulation, and a winter in June

June 17, 2022 08:45 - 45 minutes - 104 MB

Who'd have thought that digital assets, built on cryptographic algorithms, would attract 'crypto-bros' and 'to the moon' memecoins? In this episode, Katharine Wooller, managing director at crypto wealth platform Dacxi, discusses the culture of crypto and the impact on its potential adoption by regulated wealth and advice companies. We also discuss the FCA's recent involvement in the space, and whether the UK can truly become a hub for investors and crypto platforms. This is all goin...

Meeting client demand for cryptocurrencies

June 10, 2022 08:56 - 47 minutes - 64.6 MB

According to a Bitwise/ETF Trends 2022 survey, 94% of American financial advisers have recently been asked by clients about cryptocurrencies. This has created a gap in the market for providers, albeit one that carries unique and considerable risks. In this episode, Ben Cruikshank explains how he and his team at Flourish are helping US advisers to invest in crypto on behalf of clients. We discuss the Terra Luna debacle, the abundance of coins in the market, and how emerging regulato...

Can AI make our investments more sustainable?

May 27, 2022 08:45 - 37 minutes - 50.9 MB

Impact and ESG investing requires nuance and dedication, but technology can help make the whole process more manageable. In this episode, Darshita Gillies, CEO and founder of Maanch, explains how artificial intelligence is making it easier for fund managers and investors to understand what’s happening at the companies they invest in. It’s not just about screening companies for unethical and unsustainable behaviours. Darshita also explains how effective use of data is driving bette...

Making sense of a world in transition

May 20, 2022 09:00 - 48 minutes - 66.5 MB

The WealthTech Show is all about what’s new and what’s changing. So too is Chris Marshall, host of the ‘Transitional Matters’ podcast and head of investment strategy at Dragon Investment Managers. In a conversation that spans the fourth industrial revolution, tech megatrends, and cryptoassets, Chris gives a multi-disciplinary account of what we should be looking out for as investors and professionals. It turns out that the fourth industrial revolution might not be an industrial revol...

The scams that rocked crypto

May 13, 2022 09:00 - 47 minutes - 65.2 MB

Scams, hacks, and outright fraud have grabbed the headlines in the early days of crypto. Erica Stanford, author of Crypto Wars, joins The WealthTech Show this week to tell us all about them. Despite Erica's knowledge of the dark side of decentralised finance, she's also an enthusiast and founded the Crypto Curry Club to create a forum for like-minded individuals. In this entertaining conversation, we also discuss holes in the UK Treasury's cryptoassets plans, the use of blockchain t...

Compliance, data migrations, and lessons learned from online wine investing

May 06, 2022 09:00 - 28 minutes - 39.5 MB

Good financial advice compliance is rarely front-page news, but It doesn't have to be boring. This week, Cathi Harrison explains how tech can give us greater confidence in our systems and processes. Are we misunderstanding what technology is adding to our compliance? And are the mergers and acquisitions in the advice market a good thing for clients? Cathi offers an honest perspective, while also explaining what we can learn, as well as what we shouldn't, from online wine investing. ...

Investment platforms: Reflections on a record year

April 29, 2022 09:00 - 42 minutes - 58.2 MB

Bella Caridade-Ferreira, CEO of Fundscape, is a leading figure in the UK investment platform market. In this week’s episode she explains why 2021 was a record year for inflows, despite a year dogged by a pandemic and lockdown. In this discussion, co-hosted by Citywire’s Chloe Meley, we cover the ins and outs of fund distribution, the impact of vertical integration in financial advice, technology advancements, and the reasons why demand for advice has accelerated.

Crypto, Gen Z, and millennial financial planning: A blueprint

April 22, 2022 09:19 - 37 minutes - 25.8 MB

As a teenager, Zechariah Schaefer made a six-figure return on an Ethereum investment which opened his eyes to the importance of financial planning for crypto holders. He now offers an advice service, based in Virginia, that is targeted at Gen Z and millennial clients. By focusing on an underserved market and helping people with their crypto affairs, Zechariah may well have created a viable blueprint for integrating DeFi into financial planning. A very worthwhile listen for any fin...

Web3 and the future of work

April 19, 2022 10:26 - 38 minutes - 26.3 MB

Internet pioneer Roger Camrass returns to the WealthTech Show, to talk about the Web3, the evolution of technology, and how it will overhaul our working lives. According to Roger, we are approaching the dawn of the digital artisan, and nearing a time when people will spend their working lives in the metaverse. The consequences of this will be significant for many. Given Roger’s role in creating the internet, we also ask him about the UK government’s bid to make the nation a global ...

Cloud computing will never take off....

April 08, 2022 09:00 - 40 minutes - 56.2 MB

When Yaela Shamberg co-founded InvestCloud in 2012, there were people who told her that cloud computing was a passing fad. 10 years later, its digital platforms handle over $6 trillion in client assets. In this week's episode Yaela tells her story and discusses topics such as innovation, digital empathy, and gamification. Further, we discuss inspiration for new ideas, and the importance of diversity in tech and finance.

How to create a culture of innovation

April 01, 2022 10:00 - 32 minutes - 30.1 MB

As former CIO of Hargreaves Lansdown, David Davies oversaw a major digital overhaul and headed up a team of over 400. He knows exactly what it takes to create the right culture for innovation and new ideas.  Now operating as the founder and CEO of Navos Technologies, Davies can practice exactly what he preaches. In this episode of The WealthTech Show, he discusses how to structure your organisation for success, and offers his thoughts on the notion of someone in their 20s eventuall...

How to create a culture of innovation

April 01, 2022 10:00 - 32 minutes - 30.1 MB

As former CIO of Hargreaves Lansdown, David Davies oversaw a major digital overhaul and headed up a team of over 400. He knows exactly what it takes to create the right culture for innovation and new ideas.  Now operating as the founder and CEO of Navos Technologies, Davies can practice exactly what he preaches. In this episode of The WealthTech Show, he discusses how to structure your organisation for success, and offers his thoughts on the notion of someone in their 20s e...

DeathTech: A grave matter?

March 25, 2022 10:00 - 23 minutes - 21.1 MB

Death doesn't need to be a morbid topic says Sam Grice, CEO of Guardian Angel. In this week's WealthTech Show we discuss the tech that makes it easier to handle death-related admin, while pausing to consider some weird and wonderful suggestions on how to leave a legacy.   This discussion raises interesting questions, not just around tech but also around life planning. Are you prepared, in a practical sense, for your own death? And who, if anyone, will be able to access to y...

DeathTech: A grave matter?

March 25, 2022 10:00 - 23 minutes - 21.1 MB

Death doesn't need to be a morbid topic says Sam Grice, CEO of Guardian Angel. In this week's WealthTech Show we discuss the tech that makes it easier to handle death-related admin, while pausing to consider some weird and wonderful suggestions on how to leave a legacy.   This discussion raises interesting questions, not just around tech but also around life planning. Are you prepared, in a practical sense, for your own death? And who, if anyone, will be able to access to your cryp...

Online lead generation: The good, the bad, and the unverified

March 18, 2022 09:45 - 27 minutes - 38.2 MB

Online lead generation is valuable for financial advisers and prospective clients, but it's far from a flawless market. This week, Ian joins forces with colleague and reporter Laura Purkess, to chat with Contact State founder Alain Desmier. Laura has valuable experience here, having delivered scoops for New Model Adviser on murky practices in lead gen. Alain, meanwhile, devotes his career to helping companies and individuals use lead generation sites with confidence. Here, we separ...

Online lead generation: The good, the bad, and the unverified

March 18, 2022 09:45 - 27 minutes - 38.2 MB

Online lead generation is valuable for financial advisers and prospective clients, but it's far from a flawless market. This week, Ian joins forces with colleague and reporter Laura Purkess, to chat with Contact State founder Alain Desmier. Laura has valuable experience here, having delivered scoops for New Model Adviser on murky practices in lead gen. Alain, meanwhile, devotes his career to helping companies and individuals use lead generation sites with confidence. Here, ...

PayTech and neobanks: Giving clients what they really want

March 11, 2022 09:30 - 25 minutes - 23.4 MB

Thish De Zoysa founded Their Perfect Gift, a prepaid gift card company, after working in insolvency and seeing thousands of pounds of gift card purchases go to waste each year.   In this episode, Thish tells his story in more detail, and shares the lessons that he’s learned about challenger banks, neobanks, and online payment innovations. The message is simple: technology is helping clients to access services that meet their own specific needs. If you run a financial advice...

PayTech and neobanks: Giving clients what they really want

March 11, 2022 09:30 - 25 minutes - 23.4 MB

Thish De Zoysa founded Their Perfect Gift, a prepaid gift card company, after working in insolvency and seeing thousands of pounds of gift card purchases go to waste each year.   In this episode, Thish tells his story in more detail, and shares the lessons that he’s learned about challenger banks, neobanks, and online payment innovations. The message is simple: technology is helping clients to access services that meet their own specific needs. If you run a financial advice or weal...

Should the UK become the 'home' of crypto and fintech?

February 25, 2022 09:45 - 34 minutes - 63 MB

Matt Hancock, MP for West Suffolk and former Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, recently spoke in the Commons about the UK's suitability as a home to FinTech and cryptocurrency innovation. We invited him to The WealthTech Show to get a deeper understanding of what this means. This podcast covers individual rights to crypto ownership, the future of Web3, and the regulatory shifts that appear to have encouraged major investment in UK FinTech. Do people really unde...

Should the UK become the 'home' of crypto and fintech?

February 25, 2022 09:45 - 34 minutes - 63 MB

Matt Hancock, MP for West Suffolk and former Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, recently spoke in the Commons about the UK's suitability as a home to FinTech and cryptocurrency innovation. We invited him to The WealthTech Show to get a deeper understanding of what this means. This podcast covers individual rights to crypto ownership, the future of Web3, and the regulatory shifts that appear to have encouraged major investment in UK FinTech. Do people really understand c...

Driverless cars? Not in my lifetime

February 18, 2022 09:30 - 34 minutes - 32.1 MB

Driverless cars are unlikely to appear anytime soon. That's the opinion of Patrick McGinty, an English professor at Slippery Rock University in Pennsylvania, who has written a full syllabus for his students on autonomous vehicles. McGinty's upcoming novel, Test Drive, explores some of the questions provoked by the emergence of autonomous vehicles, while prompting us to wonder if they are genuinely a good thing. Besides offering his take on the auto sector, McGinty also explains a s...

Driverless cars? Not in my lifetime

February 18, 2022 09:30 - 34 minutes - 32.1 MB

Driverless cars are unlikely to appear anytime soon. That's the opinion of Patrick McGinty, an English professor at Slippery Rock University in Pennsylvania, who has written a full syllabus for his students on autonomous vehicles. McGinty's upcoming novel, Test Drive, explores some of the questions provoked by the emergence of autonomous vehicles, while prompting us to wonder if they are genuinely a good thing. Besides offering his take on the auto sector, McGinty also expl...

Using tech to spot credit spreads before the ratings agencies

February 11, 2022 09:30 - 21 minutes - 28.7 MB

David Curtis, head of global client business at BondIT, is using AI and advanced technologies to gain an advantage in fixed income investing. In this episode, he explains how his growth stage fintech company is managing roughly $500 billion of client money, and identifying the emergence of credit spreads before the rest of the market can cotton on.   This appears to be serious bond market innovation. Beyond this, Curtis offers his take on why tech talent is shunning financi...

Using tech to spot credit spreads before the ratings agencies

February 11, 2022 09:30 - 21 minutes - 28.7 MB

David Curtis, head of global client business at BondIT, is using AI and advanced technologies to gain an advantage in fixed income investing. In this episode, he explains how his growth stage fintech company is managing roughly $500 billion of client money, and identifying the emergence of credit spreads before the rest of the market can cotton on.   This appears to be serious bond market innovation. Beyond this, Curtis offers his take on why tech talent is shunning financial servi...

Can we really automate investment management?

February 04, 2022 09:30 - 24 minutes - 33.4 MB

Can we really automate the role of the investment manager? And if we can, to what extent should we?  In this episode of The WealthTech Show, we speak to Symon Stickney, CEO of Collidr. Symon is confident that Collidr is part of an exciting new wave of investment tech and says it’s ‘undeniable’ that AI and automation will eventually take over as the primary way in which portfolio management solutions are delivered.  Whether you agree or not, this is a fascinating listen for any investor, pr...

Can we really automate investment management?

February 04, 2022 09:30 - 24 minutes - 33.4 MB

Can we really automate the role of the investment manager? And if we can, to what extent should we?  In this episode of The WealthTech Show, we speak to Symon Stickney, CEO of Collidr. Symon is confident that Collidr is part of an exciting new wave of investment tech and says it’s ‘undeniable’ that AI and automation will eventually take over as the primary way in which portfolio management solutions are delivered.  Whether you agree or not, this is a fascinating listen for any inv...

Can we really automate investment management?

February 04, 2022 09:30 - 24 minutes - 33.4 MB

Can we really automate the role of the investment manager? And if we can, to what extent should we?  In this episode of The WealthTech Show, we speak to Symon Stickney, CEO of Collidr. Symon is confident that Collidr is part of an exciting new wave of investment tech and says it’s ‘undeniable’ that AI and automation will eventually take over as the primary way in which portfolio management solutions are delivered.  Whether you agree or not, this is a fascinating listen for...

"It's not just banking, it's a movement": The rise of hyper-personalisation

January 28, 2022 09:34 - 28 minutes - 36.4 MB

Technology can enable bespoke services at serious scale, and this is a huge development. Algbras' Ramsey El Dabbagh explains what this means for banking, and how FinTechs and neo-banks will help reach markets that have been historically overlooked by established players. "It's not just banking," he says. "It's a movement."

"It's not just banking, it's a movement": The rise of hyper-personalisation

January 28, 2022 09:34 - 28 minutes - 36.4 MB

Technology can enable bespoke services at serious scale, and this is a huge development. Algbras' Ramsey El Dabbagh explains what this means for banking, and how FinTechs and neo-banks will help reach markets that have been historically overlooked by established players. "It's not just banking," he says. "It's a movement."

Is integration still an industry-wide disgrace?

January 21, 2022 10:00 - 31 minutes - 28.6 MB

Even in 2022, wealth managers and financial advisers are using poorly integrated technology. It is a problem that creates needless delays and hassle, leaving us with one foot stuck in the twentieth century. This time on The WealthTech Show we speak to Ian Hutchinson and Emma Napier, both part of the business development team at Bravura Solutions. We look at the hassle caused by technology that does not communicate with the rest of your tech stack, and we discuss the potential for microservi...

Is integration still an industry-wide disgrace?

January 21, 2022 10:00 - 31 minutes - 28.6 MB

Even in 2022, wealth managers and financial advisers are using poorly integrated technology. It is a problem that creates needless delays and hassle, leaving us with one foot stuck in the twentieth century. This time on The WealthTech Show we speak to Ian Hutchinson and Emma Napier, both part of the business development team at Bravura Solutions. We look at the hassle caused by technology that does not communicate with the rest of your tech stack, and we discuss the potenti...

Is integration still an industry-wide disgrace?

January 21, 2022 10:00 - 31 minutes - 28.6 MB

Even in 2022, wealth managers and financial advisers are using poorly integrated technology. It is a problem that creates needless delays and hassle, leaving us with one foot stuck in the twentieth century. This time on The WealthTech Show we speak to Ian Hutchinson and Emma Napier, both part of the business development team at Bravura Solutions. We look at the hassle caused by technology that does not communicate with the rest of your tech stack, and we discuss the potential for m...

Is blockchain the future of business and finance?

January 14, 2022 10:11 - 33 minutes - 24.8 MB

Lavinia Osbourne, named as a LinkedIn Top Voice in 2021, has quickly become a renowned advocate for blockchain and its potential to create a better and more inclusive platform for financial services.   In this episode, we look at the opportunity to educate ourselves about decentralised finance, as well as the possibility of lowering the barriers to entry for financial services. Further, we get Lavinia’s take on celebrity NFTs, such as those launched by William Shatner, Jay-...

Is blockchain the future of business and finance?

January 14, 2022 10:11 - 33 minutes - 30.8 MB

Lavinia Osbourne, named as a LinkedIn Top Voice in 2021, has quickly become a renowned advocate for blockchain and its potential to create a better and more inclusive platform for financial services.   In this episode, we look at the opportunity to educate ourselves about decentralised finance, as well as the possibility of lowering the barriers to entry for financial services. Further, we get Lavinia’s take on celebrity NFTs, such as those launched by William Shatner, Jay-Z and Li...

Financial inclusion: A business opportunity hiding in plain sight?

January 07, 2022 09:50 - 34 minutes - 62.8 MB

Financial inclusion is a little misunderstood. On the surface it's a chance to make advice and wealth more inclusive and friendly, so it gets lumped in with philanthropy. This week we speak to Shan Millie, a member of TechNation's delivery panel, to look at the bigger picture. Sure, financial inclusion is ethical and righteous, but is it not also a massive opportunity for wealthtech adopters and innovators? With the right tech, can we create business models that are sustainable and...

Financial inclusion: A business opportunity hiding in plain sight?

January 07, 2022 09:50 - 34 minutes - 62.8 MB

Financial inclusion is a little misunderstood. On the surface it's a chance to make advice and wealth more inclusive and friendly, so it gets lumped in with philanthropy. This week we speak to Shan Millie, a member of TechNation's delivery panel, to look at the bigger picture. Sure, financial inclusion is ethical and righteous, but is it not also a massive opportunity for wealthtech adopters and innovators? With the right tech, can we create business models that are sustain...

A client built us a tech tool. Here’s what we did next

December 10, 2021 10:00 - 27 minutes - 25.2 MB

London-based IFA Simon Bullock has spent his career building close connections with clients. Even so, he was a little surprised when one of them presented a tech solution to him, which could help him offer better investment and planning insights. We speak to Simon about what has happened since, and how he's devoted time and effort to refining the tool so that it works seamlessly for clients. If you're a wealth or advice professional with aspirations of building your own tec...

A client built us a tech tool. Here’s what we did next

December 10, 2021 10:00 - 27 minutes - 25.2 MB

London-based IFA Simon Bullock has spent his career building close connections with clients. Even so, he was a little surprised when one of them presented a tech solution to him, which could help him offer better investment and planning insights. We speak to Simon about what has happened since, and how he's devoted time and effort to refining the tool so that it works seamlessly for clients. If you're a wealth or advice professional with aspirations of building your own tech, this ...

‘A market driven by neckbeard anarcho-capitalists’: The world of NFTs

December 03, 2021 09:45 - 24 minutes - 44.4 MB

The money being spent on NFTs is ludicrous. But when you think about it, what’s new? Artist Eric Drass joins The WealthTech Show to discuss parallels between the physical and digital worlds, and what’s driving the demand for non-fungible tokens.   Eric tells us about the NFTs that he’s created and sold, and the dubious ethics involved in using certain cryptocurrencies for the transaction. This is an open and lively chat about a confusing new trend, and an unexpected reflection on the relati...