Education and Mindfulness Are the Bookends of Success

In this episode, we are joined by Jonathan DeYoe, advisor of Mindful Money and the host of the Mindful Money Podcast. He discusses how he became a financial advisor, what his typical process is for working with clients, and what common threads he sees that people struggle with in their financial plans. Jonathan emphasizes the importance of mindfulness, especially in personal finance, and how it can help us increase wealth and lead more meaningful lives.

 

[00:01 - 05:03] The Money Philosopher

Jonathan shares his background  Going back to the financial space Financial planning versus investment selection

 

[05:04 - 16:21] Mindfully Saving and Investing

Setting long-term goals What it means to be mindful of the path  Getting the emergency fund covered and the rest gets invested How to invest in a volatile market Diversification is key

 

[16:22 - 23:10] Scaling in a Mindful Way

Getting out of the poverty mindset Why Jonathan decided to merge his business with another company Understanding your purpose Sign up now for Mindful Money’s FREE Values, Purpose & Goals course!

[23:11 - 24:09] Closing Segment

Reach out to Jonathan!  Links Below Final Words

Tweetable Quotes

 

“I don't think anybody can predict anything. So given that, planning is the tool we use. And in fact, the two tools we think that are most valuable are planning and education.” - Jonathan DeYoe

“The concept of mindfulness is sort of  a non-judgmental awareness of the present moment.” - Jonathan DeYoe

“ Let's not judge the fear. Let's not make some kind of an assumption about what's gonna happen next, what's on the ground, what can we do to make a difference.” - Jonathan DeYoe

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Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below:

 

[00:00:00] Jonathan DeYoe: Because of my education in sort of philosophy and, you know, mindfulness training and meditation and religious kinds of things, I think that whenever I'm on a show when I'm being interviewed, or whenever I write, that comes across the idea that, Hey, you know, there is a way to make better decisions. It's not the way that we're told all the time.

[00:00:20] Jonathan DeYoe: Let's talk about the way that actually is helpful. And for some people, they go, oh, that makes a ton of sense. Let me talk to Jonathan. And when they do then that's stimulation right there. 

[00:00:40] Sam Wilson: Jonathan DeYoe is a Lutheran seminary intern, Buddhist academic turned financial advisor. He's also the advisor of the Mindful Money and the host of the Mindful Money Podcast. He has been investing for over four decades in helping others build wealth for the last 25 years. Jonathan, welcome to the show.

[00:00:57] Jonathan DeYoe: Thanks for having me, Sam.

[00:00:58] Sam Wilson: Pleasure's mine. There are three questions I ask every guest who comes in the show: in 90 seconds or less, can you to tell me, where did you start? Where are you now? And how did you get there? 

[00:01:05] Jonathan DeYoe: In 90 seconds or less? Where did I start? So I started off in Rapid City, south Dakota, was raised pretty poor. And so I made a, made a goal for myself to make money and to not have that problem, you know, growing up. So took a detour, studied finance in college, took a detour, studied philosophy and comparative religion ended up coming to California to be a Lutheran seminarian. The Lutheran school I was, I had agreed to go to and they had given me a scholarship.

[00:01:30] Jonathan DeYoe: When I got here, they said, listen, we had a bad year last year. We don't have the scholarship money. So I went across the street to a Buddhist school and they said, yeah, we have some money. So I ended up studying, compared to religion from a Buddhist side, was there for two, three years, realized that I really wanted to practice more than I wanted to be an academic. So I meditated every day since. And started off, you know, right after I left, at Dean Witter, which became Morgan Stanley Dean Witter. You know, I was at five or six different wall street firms before I started my own firm in 2001. And so the last 20 years, building that firm until last year when I merge it into EP Wealth.

[00:02:05] Sam Wilson: Wow. Wow. That's interesting. Tell me, you know, in that financial planning practice, how gimme some color on what that was? I mean, there's, the say financial planning can mean 10,000 different things to 10,000 different people. 

[00:02:18] Jonathan DeYoe: Yep. Yeah. It's, it's a great question. I, and I appreciate more than you probably know. So I think most people that have, that say financial planner mean investment advisor and I actually mean financial planner. I don't think anybody has the ability to guess what's happening next. I don't think anybody that can control outcomes. I don't think anybody can predict anything. So given that, planning is the tool we use. And in fact, the two tools we think that are most valuable are planning and education. So in my own personal pivot, you know, I'm, I'm working with clients on their financial plans and I go in depth on, you know, all their cash flows, incomes, outflows, all their goals, what those costs, you know, the probability of increased costs later on everything, education, we go really, really, really deep in all aspects of their financial lives.

[00:03:05] Jonathan DeYoe: And what that does is it gives us the ability to make better decisions in the now. And that's, that's really what financial planning is. It isn't investment selection, it isn't market timing. And if you've got folks that are looking for better investment selection, better market timing, that's not here. And in fact it's not anywhere, but especially not here 

[00:03:20] Sam Wilson: That, you know, I love the idea, what you mentioned there, differentiating between what is financial planning and what is just investment selection, 'cause those are, those are two very different things. Getting someone to a point where they want to come to you and say, Jonathan, let's sit down and let's just pull the curtains back on everything and just dissect this piece by piece has got to be, the people that are willing to take the time to do that are few and far between I would imagine. Is that, is that a fair assumption? 

[00:03:49] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. Thankfully, there are many different brands of financial advisors as you sort of alluded to. And so people can find the people that fit with them and they're out there. I don't believe it's possible that someone can select a better investment or time market any better than I can. But if you believe that someone can do that for you, then, you know, I wish you the best of luck. I think that's a great thing. 

[00:04:07] Sam Wilson: Right. And I guess I would, the, what I was getting at was that what you provide is an incredibly valuable service to people that take the time to do it.

[00:04:16] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. 

[00:04:17] Sam Wilson: What are the things that bring people to you to where they say, Hey, Jonathan, I need your help? 

[00:04:23] Jonathan DeYoe: Well, I, so I don't know what the thing is that stimulates somebody to make a decision to ultimately call us that that's hard for me to guess, but because of my education in sort of philosophy and, you know, mindfulness training and meditation and religious kinds of things, I think that whenever I'm on a show or when I'm being interviewed or whenever I write, that comes across the idea that, Hey, you know, there is a way to make better decisions. It's not the way that we're told all the time. Let's talk about the way that actually is helpful. And for some people they go, oh, that makes a ton of sense. Let me talk to Jonathan. And when they do then that's stimulation right there. 

[00:04:59] Sam Wilson: Right, right. That's really cool. I like, I like that, that answer there. Tell me, you know, when you guys dig into, or when you dig into someone's financial plan or in this case, maybe the lack thereof, what are some of the common threads you see that things you go, man, most people struggle with this, and this is how they overcome it? 

[00:05:19] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, and it's a great question. The, I think that the thing that most people do and the thing that causes the most problems that I've ever seen is we simply don't save enough. Like, we don't save enough. And how do we save more? Well, there's three different pieces of this, right? You, you earn more, you spend less. And then you sort of think longer term. So realize that right now, right now you, you're earning a certain amount and people panic about that. And I can't do anything about it. Well, you're gonna, you're gonna earn more later, almost guaranteed, right?

[00:05:45] Jonathan DeYoe: You are, we are always becoming the next version of ourselves. And so we get raises, we switch jobs, we start a side gig. And, and so in terms of planning, you can think about all those kinds of things and I just, I just went through this process myself. I went back, and I don't know if you've ever done this, I went back and looked at, goals that I set 11 years ago, 10 years ago.

[00:06:04] Jonathan DeYoe: And I kid you not, I beat the goals by 10. I had like five specific goals, every single one of 'em I had, I had beaten by like 5% or 10%, which, and I set 'em 10 years, you know, 10 years ago. I was 40 years old and I was like, these are crazy goals. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna really set the bar high and boom, we, we nailed them.

[00:06:25] Jonathan DeYoe: And so the, the fact that you put those things on paper, that you think about them, that you write them down actually does create outcomes. You have to follow through, you've got to do the work. You got to take the time, all that kind of stuff. But if you write it down and you, you reflect on that on a regular basis. You'll get there, right? You'll get there. And I, I fully believe that. The reminder is this is what you got to do. Let's go do it. 

[00:06:46] Sam Wilson: Right. And I think that goes into the, into the title of your book, which is the well you, or a title of podcast or book, which one is it? You wrote a book.

[00:06:53] Jonathan DeYoe: Both.

[00:06:54] Sam Wilson: Both. It is a Mindful Money and Mindful Money Podcast. There it is. That's that's the topic. Your book is Mindful Money. Can you break down what that, other than just writing it down and saying, Hey, this is, this is where I want to go. What else does that mean to you? 

[00:07:10] Jonathan DeYoe: So. The second thing I would say, if we don't save enough, the second thing is we invest without knowing where we're, what we're investing for. So, so mindfulness, this concept, what is mindfulness? The concept of mindfulness is sort of a, a non-judgmental awareness of the present moment. And right now in the present moment, we've had two quarters of kind of volatile markets after nine years of just a wonderful upside. So, so people are actually experiencing this now.

[00:07:35] Jonathan DeYoe: And, and if you're a real estate investor, you haven't experienced this kind of volatility, this kind of interest rate rise since 2008, 2009. So if you're, you know, this is kind of scary for a lot of folks, for sure. But the reality is this is a natural ebb and flow of markets. This is, this happens.

[00:07:49] Jonathan DeYoe: It's normal, it's normal in equity markets. It's actually normal in, in real estate markets as well. And the mindfulness piece is realizing, okay, there's this scary thing. Let's not judge the fear. Let's not make some kind of an assumption about what's gonna happen next, what's on the ground, what can we do to make a difference. When you're thinking about somebody that has goals and dreams and things they wanna accomplish, if they've never thought about the goals and dreams and things, they're, they're behind, right?

[00:08:13] Jonathan DeYoe: They, they don't, they don't know, they don't know what they're targeting, but more important than not knowing what they're targeting is they don't know how to course correct. You know, you got to know where you're going in order to know when you're not on the path. And so mindfulness is of the path, not mindfulness is knowing where I'm going, knowing that the decisions I need to make to get there and then course correcting along the way, being non-judgmental about the environment, knowing what I need to do internally, right? 

[00:08:38] Jonathan DeYoe: And that's the, that's very tough to get to that. But when you work with people and you sit down with them, you do the full analysis of everything you wanna accomplish. You say here's the trade offs that you need to make to make that happen. Here's the expected normal run of the mill market volatility run of the mill downside you're gonna run into, and you have to just keep doing the stuff that we said you had to do while that stuff happens.

[00:09:00] Jonathan DeYoe: 'Cause that's just normal. That's par for the course. That's what we can expect. Then they meet that when you're on the path, right? So you you've made the plan. You've you've talked about the trade offs. You've told them what to expect and then they, that thing hits them, that smacks 'em in the face and then they, oh, we talked about this and yeah, we'll talk about it right then again. And we'll talk about it every six months. We'll talk about it every year. We'll keep talking about it and talking about it and talking about it and then it hits them and then they can work through it. And it's that, it's that constant message of, this is what we got to do. This is what we got to do, this, what we got to do that enables people to do it when the time comes. 

[00:09:32] Sam Wilson: I love it. I love it. You said one of the mistakes that you see people making is that they don't save enough. Yeah. What does saving mean to you? How, how, how would you answer this? What does saving mean to you in an environment where we see the value of especially dollars just going away. I mean, what does that, I mean, inflation is just killing savers right now. How do you save, how do you mindfully save? 

[00:09:56] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, well said, well said. So saving is, is one step in a two step process, right? Everyone has to have enough savings that is declining in value that inflation's gonna erode.

[00:10:05] Jonathan DeYoe: No question about that, right, and, and it's, we're talking a lot about inflation today, but inflation has always been a fact. It's been 1.8, 2% for about 10 years. It's always gonna be coming. It's always around the corner. And you're thinking about 60 year investing lives and 30 year retirements, you're gonna face lots of inflation.

[00:10:22] Jonathan DeYoe: So to this, isn't a special thing. This is something we should expect, okay? So given that, I'm always recommending saving more, but, but saving is just the first step in that two step process. Once you have your emergency fund, once you have enough sitting in cash, then you're investing it, you're seeking, you're seeking a place to put it that has the highest opportunity, right?

[00:10:42] Jonathan DeYoe: And so that could be, and I know what you guys do, you know, lots of real estate, I've done a lot of real estate in my life as well. I'm a huge fan of, of just public equity markets. I'm actually a huge fan of, of private enterprise as well. I like now I invest in small businesses locally than when they, when they run into trouble.

[00:10:57] Jonathan DeYoe: I invest into small tech companies where, where, you know, I might know the CEO or I might have a friend that's, that's introduced me to the CEO or something like that. I, I love that stuff. I love equity. I love business. I'm also a huge fan of real estate as a way to develop wealth. 

[00:11:11] Sam Wilson: I like that. So you're saying what we do first, get the emergency fund covered, get your basic, get that covered. And the rest gets invested. 

[00:11:19] Jonathan DeYoe: Totally. 

[00:11:19] Sam Wilson: Where do you see prime risk right now in investments? Be it in the, in the public markets, be it in real estate. I mean, you see a lot of different stuff come across your desk. Is there anything right now that when you see it, you just get this internal gut check of like, oh boy.

[00:11:37] Jonathan DeYoe: I do. I'm not sure I'm gonna win any popularity contest with this. 

[00:11:41] Sam Wilson: It's okay. We're not here for popularity contest. We're here for, for honest feedback. 

[00:11:46] Jonathan DeYoe: So I think, and this, goes back every two, three years. There's something that comes across the pipe that is, you know, exciting to talk about. And usually, while it's exciting to talk about, it's a really dumb idea to engage, you know, back, you know, go back 20 years. I'm starting the business in the middle of the dot com world. You know, there's plenty of people that saying nothing but technology matters, nothing, but connectivity matters. This is all that matters and that's all gonna invest in. And they did really astoundingly well, you know, 96, 97, 98, 99. And in 2000, they lost 90% of their assets. Because everything chased one idea. So now it's in this last couple years, there's been a lot of chasing going on. You've had, you've had specs.

[00:12:27] Jonathan DeYoe: They're they're all destroyed NFTs. They're pretty much destroyed crypto. I think crypto has a case. I'm not investing in the currency. I think there's a case long term, not in the currency, but in the blockchain. I wouldn't, I wouldn't touch the currency myself. It's just, you know, that's speculation.

[00:12:41] Jonathan DeYoe: That's not investing. So for me, I like anything that's broadly diversified. You know, I like to own lots of different stuff, 'cause I think the risk is in the concentration. The risk is engaging, the exciting thing, getting too concentrated and the exciting thing when it's exciting. I love stuff that's like, okay, everybody hates this now it's probably a pretty good investment, right? Remember,, like Tesla was killing it. Ford was getting destroyed. 2022 comes, Tesla gets destroyed. Ford is killing it. That's a pretty good story. That's kind of what you can always anticipate. 

[00:13:15] Sam Wilson: I love, I love your statement there, that the risk is in the concentration. We're seeing that right now in the multifamily space. I mean, I don't know if you track anything in commercial real estate, you know, specifically, but the capital pouring into multifamily has just caused cap rate compression at a pace that I just can't, it's unfathomable to me. And yes, I did buy some multifamily last year. It was, I mean, it just made all the sense in the world. They were sweetheart deals and they're crushing it, but by and large, like, I just stepped out of it. I just said, man, this is, yeah. It's it just seems frothy. 

[00:13:51] Jonathan DeYoe: Was it, I think, Buffett said, you know, you buy the thing when it's, I, I don't remember what it was. 

[00:13:56] Sam Wilson: Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy only when others are fearful. 

[00:13:58] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. It's that, but if it's dear, if it's dear, if everyone wants it, that's you don't want that. You know, and there's plenty of in real estate specifically, in stocks, there's plenty of opportunity. Maybe, maybe it's parking lots now, you know, maybe it's not single family. Maybe it's, you know, there's so many different options of how you do it, that don't buy the thing that everyone's chasing. And right now, like the big money is all chasing multifamily. You've got, what is it? The Blackstone, right? Buying thousands and thousands of units that drives up prices makes the cash flow less good. 

[00:14:25] Sam Wilson: Right. Drives up prices. I mean, it's great. It's great for those of us, you know, if we're exiting.

[00:14:30] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. If you're an owner, it's good time. 

[00:14:33] Sam Wilson: Yeah. It's a good time to sell that. That's absolutely right. But no, I think, I think that's really, really smart there. When you say the risk is in the concentration. I mean, do people come to you and send you, you know, opportunities they have, if they're a client of yours and say, Hey, Jonathan, here, here's an idea. Here's an opportunity to invest in something. What do you think? 

[00:14:51] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah. I mean, it it's rarer. I mean, the people that are, you know, I wrote a book called Mindful Money. So the, the people that attracts first is people that aren't really interested in investing.

[00:15:02] Sam Wilson: Right. 

[00:15:02] Jonathan DeYoe: So, they don't want to do this themselves. They want somebody to do it for them, with them, you know, hold their hand through the process. And I'm, that's what I love to do. I love, I love to actually walk people through capital markets 'cause I, I love capital markets. It's a, it's a fun place for me.

[00:15:14] Jonathan DeYoe: But occasionally I have a client who will come in and say, Hey, I bet this idea. I bet this idea. Or, you know, my buddy started this company in Silicon valley, what do you think? And, and, you know, they, they run the gamut from a real estate thing to a new meta platform to a new, you know, so there's, there's so many chip companies, there's so many different things that I, that I run into.

[00:15:33] Jonathan DeYoe: I actually, don't, I've only made a couple of those direct investments myself, because there's so much risk. And that, I mean, it's like 98% chance that you lose every penny you put into it, right? So again, concentrations are good. I like diversification. So I have, I have a guy that does this a hundred percent of his time.

[00:15:50] Jonathan DeYoe: This is what he likes to do. And so I give him the money that I wanna invest in private enterprise. And he invests that money 'cause he invests in 60 in every fund. So that's fine. That's how I get diversification in that space. And those are out there that're available. I recommend those and I think that's, in your world, that's like syndication, right? 

[00:16:04] Jonathan DeYoe: So you get somebody that does a bunch of different things and you, they pool money and that enables more investments across a broader, a broader range of opportunity. 

[00:16:11] Sam Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Especially, especially when you start getting into syndications that are funds where we might pull 10 assets into a single fund.

[00:16:19] Sam Wilson: That's absolutely right. Tell me about this. You mentioned early on that you were raised poor there's oftentimes I feel that there are mindset shifts that you have to get over, especially I'm, I'm in your camp of growing up pretty much, yeah, pretty pretty on the poor side of things.

[00:16:37] Sam Wilson: And so I'll just speak, maybe I'm maybe I'm projecting here.

[00:16:40] Jonathan DeYoe: Project away. 

[00:16:41] Sam Wilson: It took me a long time to really get out of the poverty mindset.

[00:16:45] Jonathan DeYoe: Oh, yeah. 

[00:16:45] Sam Wilson: It's like, oh man, this is where I come from. This is who I am. This is who I'll always be. This is the way, and my parents treated money fairly well. We just didn't have much of it, but still there, there was a lot of just getting over some of those things. Tell me, how can you contrast that upbringing and, you know, your book on, on Mindful Money and being mindful of your money? What, how do those two coincide?

[00:17:07] Jonathan DeYoe: So there's actually a third point in there and we talked about it just briefly before we started. So I did, I wrote a book and there's three parts to the book. The first part of the book is all the illusions you can ignore. The middle part is the stuff that can make you, that leads to wellbeing, happiness, contentment, whatever that word is you want to use. And then the third part of the book is a plan to get there.

[00:17:25] Jonathan DeYoe: So I've written a book that talks about, you know, health relationships, gratitude, generosity, all these things that we know lead to happiness, right? So I know, I know this stuff, I've read the research. I read the papers, all that kind of stuff. And it wasn't until last year when my brother died, that it really hit me that I wasn't doing it.

[00:17:46] Jonathan DeYoe: Like, I wrote the book. I understand, but I was, I am still to this day, I have a poverty mindset to this day, and it's not that it holds me the way it did when I was younger. But it pops up. And you go, oh, there it is. Like, that's the thing that gets me. And I find myself worrying a lot about it all going away.

[00:18:06] Jonathan DeYoe: So that's that, you know, I built the thing. I merge a thing in a larger company, I'm building more content. I'm writing, I'm teaching I'm doing all the stuff I love to do. And yet there's this thing that I'm afraid, I'm afraid that someone's gonna take it all away. It's gonna take it away. So when my brother died, it really brought home something about the way he lived his life.

[00:18:23] Jonathan DeYoe: And it was, you know, he didn't mind being late to the movie. He didn't mind making you wait. He didn't mind. He didn't stress. All the things that I stress constantly. And so I'm, I'm learning to be a little bit more relaxed and, you know, it ebbs and flows. Like, I'm trying my best. And, but that man, it grips you and it shows up in places you don't expect it.

[00:18:42] Sam Wilson: Yeah. It's an interesting thing. I probably didn't recognize even in myself or know that it existed. Gosh, until probably I don't even know five, seven years ago. And it's like, wait, there you are like, yeah, I have a poverty mindset and it just it's recognizing it.

[00:18:57] Sam Wilson: It is a journey, you know, everybody has their own journey, but it's certainly an interesting journey to just explore. And so I was just curious how, how that worked out. One last question here for you before we sign off really curious about your business. I know we talked about this a little bit off air, but I think it's important for those who are scaling their business and thinking about ways to scale and also scaling in a mindful way.

[00:19:18] Sam Wilson: We're gonna just keep playing with a mindful theme here, but you took your business and merged it with another company really so you could focus on the thing that you enjoy the most. Is that right? 

[00:19:30] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, that's absolutely right. 21 years of building a practice, I think we talked about this beforehand.

[00:19:35] Jonathan DeYoe: My, my brother, when my brother died, we had plans that beginning this year. So her died middle of last year, June of 2021. He was gonna join me first quarter of 2022 and be my COO CEO. He was technology genius. He was an operations guy. He had his MBA, and I'm much better face to face with a client.

[00:19:54] Jonathan DeYoe: And so I wanted to do none, none of the business management, and I wanted him to come on and do that kind of stuff. And we've been, we've been planning it. We actually started a company in 2006 that we actually shut it in 2008. So we we've been thinking about how to do this for a long, long time. So when he died, everything changes very quickly.

[00:20:08] Jonathan DeYoe: And, and so I was like, okay, I know I don't wanna do this. I know I don't wanna pick the next, you know, technology tool we use. I know I don't wanna do, you know, so many things we had to think about in terms of our technology stack and I, I didn't wanna do that. So I, I had actually recently talked three years ago.

[00:20:24] Jonathan DeYoe: I had talked to this firm EP wealth. And I'd gone down the road with them and I chatted with them pretty deeply. And, and I decided at that point, I'm just gonna grow this thing. I'm gonna bring my brother on. We're gonna do this together. We've always meant to do this. And so I went back to them and I went back to like 15 or 20 other companies.

[00:20:38] Jonathan DeYoe: And I hired an M&A firm and said, this is, this is what my firm is doing. This is what we believe in. This is our thought process. This is our investment process. This is our planning process. You know, find a firm that's a good match and EP, you know, the people I talked to three years ago ended up to be the, the best match for me and I merged in there.

[00:20:54] Jonathan DeYoe: And so now, I get to do the two things I want to do. We're six months in, so there's still some overlap. There's still some things I have to take care of, right? But I see a point in the future where I get to write and I get, do my podcast and I get to visit with you on your podcast. And I get to sit face to face with my clients and I don't have to worry about any other stuff.

[00:21:13] Jonathan DeYoe: And that's for me, that's the dream. That's what I want to do. And it took 20 something years to get here. And I think this year I would've been there either way. You know, I don't, I would much have preferred doing this with Dave, but this is the world we live in now. 

[00:21:26] Sam Wilson: It is. Yeah. And that's, one, I'm really sorry to hear that about your brother. I can't, I can't imagine that I've got four of my own and that had be absolutely devastating. So thanks, thanks for sharing that with us. But at the same time, I think it is scaling your business. And that's the title of the, of our podcast is how to scale commercial real estate and the number of people that come on this show and not number, number of them.

[00:21:48] Sam Wilson: But, but I get kind of two camps that come on. One person's gonna say, Hey, you know, we're going gangbusters. And we're gonna, we're gonna have, you know, 500 employees and, you know, own billions of dollars in real estate. And that may be exactly what life they wanna create. And then there's other people that come on and say, look, you know what I've covered. I make 250 grand a year passively, and I'm enjoying the rest of whatever it is until I decide to go back to work and do something differently. And I'm happy as a, a pig and lop. It's just very interesting. So I think, I think mindfully scaling and figuring out and building your business around the way you want it is, is a great example that you've sat for us here by, you know, partnering up and merging with another firm. So you get to do exactly what you love. 

[00:22:29] Jonathan DeYoe: Yeah, and I think I told you this in the, in the little email exchange we had before we sat down, but the key to that process is really understanding what you want. And that's that, that's that goals, vision, purpose, kind of a thing. And I think the course that we're gonna put in the show notes is the, is our vision course.

[00:22:46] Jonathan DeYoe: And so we have a course that's free. Everyone can take it. And it's, it starts with like, what are, what are my values? What's my purpose? And then I can build goals on top of values and purpose. And that's, so many people never even go through that process. And I, I try to go through that process every single year.

[00:23:00] Jonathan DeYoe: You know, I'm, I'm behind this year, but, I'll definitely pick it up again next year. But that's, that's huge. Know what's important to you, know what your purpose is, know why you're here, and then build goals on top of those two things. 

[00:23:09] Sam Wilson: I love it. Jonathan, if our listeners wanna get in touch with you or learn more about you or take the free course, what is the best way to do that? 

[00:23:16] Jonathan DeYoe: So Mindful Money is the place to find all the social media and find the website and find the courses. We have a lot of different courses that are financial education and including a financial planning course, that's, that's built basically right on the chassis of my book and all the exercises in the book.

[00:23:29] Jonathan DeYoe: So people can definitely check that out. I'm hoping that we can put the, in the show notes, the link to the free course. 

[00:23:34] Sam Wilson: Absolutely. Yeah, we, we'll do that. We'll put that link there in the show notes. Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I do appreciate it. Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day. 

[00:23:43] Jonathan DeYoe: Thanks Sam.