THOTs & Prayers

Sex and sexuality among believers isn't as monolithic as you might think, and of course there's the outlying "bad actors" to keep this spectrum broad.

The Torah has some strict rules about who Jewish men should avoid, but isn't too quick to prescribe punishment for premarital sex. The Christian New Testament has some rules about minding your own business. Islamic tradition has some strong words about oral sex. And so much more....

The word 'abomination' gets a brief exploration, the sort of thing you might not expect.

Marianismo is a growing problem among religious communities, though it's been around for a long time, too. We also explore "purity culture" and the "Madonna-Whore" complex of Freudian fame.

The Dharmic religions have another angle on sexuality, and the Buddha encourages the faithful to avoid such attachments. 

The sexy theme of the month wouldn't be complete if we didn't take a quick look at the Kama Sutra.

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[00:00:00] Katie Dooley: Hey everyone, trigger warning on this episode there will be some sexual assault content.

[00:00:07] 

[00:00:18] Preston Meyer: You also don't know how to start this episode. Nope.

[00:00:21] Katie Dooley: Sure don't because it's awkward. It's like that sex talk with your parents, but it's that sex talk with your friend.

[00:00:28] Preston Meyer: That's fair.

[00:00:29] Katie Dooley: I'm Katie.

[00:00:30] Preston Meyer: Hi, I'm Preston.

[00:00:32] Katie Dooley: And this.

[00:00:32] Preston Meyer: Is the Holy Watermelon podcast.

[00:00:36] Katie Dooley: We're kicking it up a notch. We talked about Saint Valentine a couple weeks ago. Now we're talking about sex.

[00:00:43] Preston Meyer: Yeah, we're done with the courtship, and now we're into the exciting bit.

[00:00:46] Katie Dooley: But not with each other.

[00:00:49] Preston Meyer: Yes. Important details.

[00:00:52] Katie Dooley: We're just friends. Listeners, if you've ever wondered.

[00:00:57] Preston Meyer: Both married to other people.

[00:00:59] Katie Dooley: Yes.

[00:01:00] Preston Meyer: Well, it's there's there's a lot of people that that's not a barrier for, but there.

[00:01:06] Katie Dooley: It is for our monogamous Protestant relationships.

[00:01:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah.

[00:01:13] Katie Dooley: But nonetheless, we're gonna have a sex talk.

[00:01:16] Preston Meyer: Yep. A lot of religions are very strict on sexual purity. Of course, there's a spectrum. You've got some Christians who are way into free love. Don't get too close to your pastor. If he's really encouraging free love, that's okay. Um, you're probably in a danger cult.

[00:01:40] Katie Dooley: Um, yes. Most religions think that sex should only be between a married man and his wife. Female wife. Yeah.

[00:01:51] Preston Meyer: Wife does imply female, but.

[00:01:53] Katie Dooley: Well, you know.

[00:01:54] Preston Meyer: You know, there's some, uh. Ambiguity now, and that's people are going to do what they're going to.

[00:02:00] Katie Dooley: Do and people going to fuck what they want to fuck.

[00:02:03] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Uh, but there are rules depending on who you hang out with.

[00:02:08] Katie Dooley: Yeah, depending on what your sky daddy says and the people that interpret that.

[00:02:14] Preston Meyer: Yes.

[00:02:19] Katie Dooley: Uh, wow. Well, like a kid again.

[00:02:22] Preston Meyer: Let's let's take a look at the the judaist tradition that. Premarital sex is really not a huge deal according to the Torah. There's no strong verbiage banning it. Obviously, it's not encouraged. That's just not something we find in Scripture. I guess you're.

[00:02:45] Katie Dooley: Not going to burn in hell forever for it, right?

[00:02:48] Preston Meyer: I mean, the idea of burning in hell for having sex feels fully ludicrous. What? A lot of churches are happy to teach that we're not there yet. We're still talking about Judaism. The more Orthodox you get, the more it is discouraged. That's basically the deal.

[00:03:09] Katie Dooley: Yeah. If you remember from our Judaism episode very long time ago, you have your like reform, your conservative and your Orthodox, and that would kind of be the exact scale of liberal to. Conservative?

[00:03:22] Preston Meyer: Pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. In Exodus chapter 22. So just very shortly after the Ten Commandments block, which is, of course more than ten commandments all in its own, and there's hundreds more. There's a little explanation that if a man seduces an unmarried woman, he is expected to marry her later, or at least pay her for the privilege. If the father forbids the marriage, which may look a little bit like prostitution.

[00:03:55] Katie Dooley: Yeah, that's true, especially the way you worded it. Preston. Pay for the privilege.

[00:03:59] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Generally, this payment is expected to be the value of the dowry. And that's just the deal. They lived in a culture where very often, um, if a woman was not a virgin, um, at the with the new definition of virgin, then she would remain a definite. She would remain a virgin in the old definition of virgin for a very long time.

[00:04:26] Katie Dooley: If she wasn't a virgin. And a very good liar looking at you, Mary.

[00:04:35] Preston Meyer: Are a lot of people like to find fault in the code that, through faulty interpretation, requires a woman to marry her rapist, which is, yeah, really problematic way to read that a legal code would never reward somebody for committing such a terrible crime. And this is.

[00:04:55] Katie Dooley: Like consenting teenagers that are misbehaving.

[00:05:00] Preston Meyer: Offer that first part. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. If you seduce an unmarried woman, that's. That's what that situation is. Generally speaking, for the cases of rape that kind of fall into this category is taking a real loose definition of seduce. Of course, the man can be required to marry the woman, not the woman is required to marry the man. It's more or less up to her and her family. Does she have a chance of getting married after this? Then she's not going to go and marry the rapist. But if she really doesn't have great prospects, she can force him to support her financially for the rest of their lives. I like.

[00:05:46] Katie Dooley: That.

[00:05:46] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it seems perfectly reasonable. That should.

[00:05:48] Katie Dooley: Still be a thing.

[00:05:49] Preston Meyer: But on the books it is technically a marriage, one that can be annulled. Not really a big deal. If her prospects change in the future. She doesn't have to see her rapist again, but he must continue paying to support her.

[00:06:07] Katie Dooley: What else does the tour say, Preston?

[00:06:10] Preston Meyer: Uh, the Torah does explicitly demand that sexual partners both consent to the activity. Rape is one of the most serious sins. It doesn't get rewarded with. Oh, yeah, now you get to keep her. Nonsense. Okay.

[00:06:26] Katie Dooley: The Torah also likes people to make babies.

[00:06:30] Preston Meyer: This is true. I mean, gets.

[00:06:31] Katie Dooley: Quoted a lot. Also in fundamental christianism, it's.

[00:06:36] Preston Meyer: The first commandment. Adam and Eve are told, go and replenish the earth, which means fill it with babies. Oh, so?

[00:06:44] Katie Dooley: So everyone's accusing.

[00:06:46] Preston Meyer: Sure. I. I've seen so many memes in the last month of people who just deliberately misunderstand the Bible. There's no way this is an accident or a failure of intelligence. They're deliberately misunderstanding it to say that. Adam and Eve only had three sons, and so something hinky is going on there, either magical between the brothers or they're having sex with their mom. Not only is it strictly forbidden in the Bible, but it's not a major leap to just believe that they had sisters.

[00:07:25] Katie Dooley: Or to take what it's worth and know that it is a fictitious story. Genesis 128 A classic I put in brackets. Classic. And God bless them. And God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[00:07:51] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So, um, the bad thing that comes out of there that later needs to be clarified expressly is that bestiality is forbidden, and this passage does not encourage it.

[00:08:06] Katie Dooley: Oh, subdue it does not mean have sex with it.

[00:08:08] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Okay. That's it's bad. Not just because it's, you know, an unclean thing. No, it's an abuse of an animal. And in fact, there's an awful lot of relationships that are forbidden in the Bible. Generally, they're worded as do not have sexual relationships, or slightly more euphemistically, but these also do apply to who you can marry. Every single one of these laws is addressed to men, and just expected that women are going to follow pretty much the same laws. First, incest straight up forbidden. Now that we don't need to marry brothers and sisters because, you know, there's more than eight people on the planet. Yeah, um, it's a bad idea. It's been proven to be a bad idea.

[00:09:04] Katie Dooley: Most of the royal families.

[00:09:05] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Bad times.

[00:09:10] Katie Dooley: My Charles isn't a very attractive man because his parents were cousins.

[00:09:15] Preston Meyer: This is a on paper, true fact. According to the Torah, your cousins are fine. Even first cousins. But aunts, step moms and half sisters are off limits. This also includes your in-laws, which is actually why the whole category of in-laws exists is because they are now legally your family.

[00:09:40] Katie Dooley: That's what in-law means.

[00:09:43] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but we don't treat it that way when we talk about it in regular conversation today. Right? It's just, oh, this is what we call the family that we married into now without actually considering the ramifications of it that I.

[00:09:55] Katie Dooley: Can never.

[00:09:56] Preston Meyer: Weigh.

[00:09:57] Katie Dooley: I'm not even going to say it on air.

[00:10:00] Preston Meyer: Way too many people. Cheat on their their significant other with their in-laws. It happens all the time and it is really just embarrassing for the whole family.

[00:10:15] Katie Dooley: I hate Uncle Jamie. Love actually happens in love, actually.

[00:10:20] Preston Meyer: Okay. I didn't.

[00:10:23] Katie Dooley: Watch it. Jamie.

[00:10:23] Preston Meyer: I think I saw the last five minutes of it once. Sorry. I'll probably get around to it. Maybe not. Who knows? Homosexual anal sex is, legally speaking, disgusting. That's the verbiage that's used. And that just doesn't feel like divine communication to me. That feels like somebody added their own personal commentary, right? I mean.

[00:10:46] Katie Dooley: When you have creepeth in a few books before, now you're talking Creepeth. I like that a lot.

[00:10:54] Preston Meyer: Uh, the animal that creepeth there actually specifically talking about reptiles.

[00:10:58] Katie Dooley: Don't fuck a lizard.

[00:11:00] Preston Meyer: Yeah okay. I mean that's definitely on the list. You also don't eat lizards if you're following the the Jewish dietary code.

[00:11:11] Katie Dooley: All right. Yeah.

[00:11:13] Preston Meyer: I mean most of the world's not super concerned about that. Most of the world doesn't follow those dietary codes anymore.

[00:11:20] Katie Dooley: I literally thought you were talking about sex.

[00:11:22] Preston Meyer: Nope.

[00:11:25] Katie Dooley: Okay.

[00:11:29] Preston Meyer: Thanks for that. Um. Bestiality is forbidden. Sex during menstruation is bad, technically, making the man ritually unclean for seven days. Menstruation already makes women un ritually unclean for seven days. This doesn't mean that they're sinful or, like, awful or bad or any moral judgment. It's just you should bathe before you go to the temple. And here's the time to make sure that you're not gross. That's basically the deal, because some people smell bad. I mean, and it's very often the men.

[00:12:04] Katie Dooley: So often the men.

[00:12:06] Preston Meyer: That's basically the deal. So this just means that he needs to clean himself physically and wait a week before he can go to the temple, as we had talked about a few months ago in our talk about how celibacy came about in the Catholic tradition, normally he would just need to wash after sex and then wait for sunset, and then he's good to go again to the temple. Also, he could do whatever he wants alternatively to.

[00:12:34] Katie Dooley: Yeah.

[00:12:35] Preston Meyer: Generally speaking, Jews are forbidden from having sex with Gentiles. Depends on who you hang out with, on how strictly they follow that rule. And to be fair, that's true of all of these rules.

[00:12:50] Katie Dooley: It's a spectrum.

[00:12:51] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And priests are also forbidden from having sex with divorcees or converts. Yeah, I don't know why I stumbled through that word.

[00:13:01] Katie Dooley: I just don't. That's an interesting rule.

[00:13:03] Preston Meyer: Yeah. The idea is that if she has a baby, is it his? If she's a new convert, then it's possible that she wasn't following all the expected rules before being joined to the priest. Um, but for somebody who has been a divorcee or a convert for a long time, I feel like that rule is less necessary, even with with this specific thought behind it. There might be more thoughts about it. Who knows? And I'm sure there's different expectations among different groups there too. Not that there's a whole lot of Cohens doing their temple duty anymore anyway. But there are definitely some people who will expect the rabbis to live up to these standards as well. Which makes some sense. They're not the same thing, but I get it. It's also forbidden to have sex with anybody who is born from parents. While they were found to have been cheating on their partners, which is a really worthy thing.

[00:14:08] Katie Dooley: It is like that took me a minute to wrap my head around and also unfair for that poor child.

[00:14:14] Preston Meyer: So. Yeah, they. Yeah. So these bastards get a pass if their partners are also bastards. Or. Yeah, if one of your parents cheated on the other and that's how you came to be then.

[00:14:30] Katie Dooley: To find another one like you. Yeah. Wow.

[00:14:34] Preston Meyer: And. Theoretically. Your child, if born without that stigma, will be able to be free and be with whoever they want.

[00:14:47] Katie Dooley: Okay, just cursed for a generation.

[00:14:50] Preston Meyer: Yeah, just the one generation. Okay, good. Also, we find a lot in the Bible. Talk of concubines. Concubine is literally somebody who lives in your house that you get to have sex with.

[00:15:07] Katie Dooley: That you're not married.

[00:15:08] Preston Meyer: To them, right? That you're not married to.

[00:15:09] Katie Dooley: I have a concubine. No you don't. I have a husband.

[00:15:13] Preston Meyer: You used to have a concubine. You no longer do. And that's all the word means. We people have come up with all this kind of. Well, she's tied to him in some way. That's not technically a marriage. I mean, usually that's what we call slavery. Usually. If a man had a female slave, she would be a concubine. That's kind of the deal there.

[00:15:41] Katie Dooley: I found a cool Jewish term called ona. Ona is a Jewish law that states a husband must satisfy his wife's sexual needs. I like that. It's a good.

[00:15:53] Preston Meyer: Rule.

[00:15:54] Katie Dooley: And this is regardless of whether or not they can or want to get pregnant. So that's pretty cool because a lot of religions say only for babies.

[00:16:02] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that causes all kinds of problems.

[00:16:05] Katie Dooley: Like the Duggars, I said it.

[00:16:10] Preston Meyer: Uh, check.

[00:16:12] Katie Dooley: Out our bonus episode. Josh Duggar is a creep on Patreon.

[00:16:17] Preston Meyer: Yes, that was some fun.

[00:16:20] Katie Dooley: No it wasn't.

[00:16:21] Preston Meyer: There was some fun. It was also a lot of ick. But there was some fun.

[00:16:27] Katie Dooley: Do you think this episode has a trigger warning?

[00:16:30] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Uh, men cannot force their wives to have sex. So it's actually a lot less of an obligation the other way around for women to satisfy all of their husband needs. There's a lot of social pressure, historically speaking, but it's not a law that's nice. But. We've talked about the the nature of the Bible and in our Patreon exclusive Bible study where Katie goes through the Bible for the first time, learning all of the weird and wonderful things in there. There is porn.

[00:17:08] Katie Dooley: I read some of it researching this and that's my comment in the notes I wrote. Nothing else is the Song of Songs is a horny old book.

[00:17:15] Preston Meyer: Yeah, the The Hebrew Bible is the collection of all of the literature that's important to the nation. It includes fiction. It includes philosophical musings.

[00:17:30] Katie Dooley: Temple instructions.

[00:17:32] Preston Meyer: And porn. Well, I mean, it's not really graphic porn. Even the the best euphemisms for penis are really well coded so that a lot of people don't even think it means penis, which I think is just really creative poetry like Jesus is turtleneck.

[00:17:52] Katie Dooley: Does that come up in song songs?

[00:17:55] Preston Meyer: It does not.

[00:17:56] Katie Dooley: But someone's turtleneck come up in the song of songs.

[00:18:01] Preston Meyer: Uh.

[00:18:01] Katie Dooley: Come up.

[00:18:04] Preston Meyer: The protagonists through a big chunk of this poem is King Solomon. That doesn't mean he wrote it. It just means he's the protagonist of the story, even though a lot of people are convinced he wrote it for some reason.

[00:18:18] Katie Dooley: King Solomon fanfic. Yes. Okay. And like erotic fanfic.

[00:18:23] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I love it. It is extremely erotic.

[00:18:26] Katie Dooley: Fan love that someone wrote erotic fanfic 2000 years ago in.

[00:18:30] Preston Meyer: Poetic.

[00:18:30] Katie Dooley: Form. Man. So Tina Belcher move.

[00:18:33] Preston Meyer: Yeah, but it was so well written. According to the people who decided that it got to be in the book, that it got to be in the book forever.

[00:18:43] Katie Dooley: They cut out a lot of gospels of other people and kept a horny old poem.

[00:18:47] Preston Meyer: Yeah, because it was so popular in the nation, presumably at least among the upper class who got to make the decision anyway. But the best euphemism where they talk about his big veiny penis. They describe the the the blue sapphires in his loins. I mean, a lot of versions will say his thighs or whatever, but.

[00:19:17] Katie Dooley: They mean his big veiny.

[00:19:18] Preston Meyer: That's a translation choice to distract from big, veiny dick.

[00:19:24] Katie Dooley: Oh, boy.

[00:19:25] Preston Meyer: Yeah, somebody else said it. And I love the wording. And I'll repeat it forever without remembering who's first said it. But while Christians like to sing about how great it's going to be to be dead, which has its own implications, Jewish music and poetry for thousands of years have been man, it really rocks to be alive. And it's hard to disagree. And sometimes that celebration includes some very specific, explicit talk of references. Yeah. Good times.

[00:20:01] Katie Dooley: Well, let's move through the Abrahamic religions to Christianity, which is, as it always is, a mixed bag.

[00:20:09] Preston Meyer: Yes. There's nothing you can say about Christianity that actually encompasses all of Christianity.

[00:20:16] Katie Dooley: Even saying that Jesus of the sun is the Son of God. Yeah, there's a handful, very few, but there are a few that don't. Yeah. Think he's divine anyway. So. But we're here to talk about sex. So?

[00:20:31] Preston Meyer: So, you know, split opinions all over the place.

[00:20:35] Katie Dooley: Traditionally, though, most Christian leaders will tell you that sex should only happen within a marriage.

[00:20:41] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that's pretty much the.

[00:20:42] Katie Dooley: Standard between a man and a woman, though some Christian denominations are. Getting more accepting. Yeah.

[00:20:50] Preston Meyer: Diversity is interesting. 57% of American Christians are okay with premarital sex in a committed romantic relationship, according to a Pew Research Center survey. Um, which does fall in line with the standards that we found in Judaism, where as long as you're interested in pursuing a long term relationship, you're going to be fine.

[00:21:14] Katie Dooley: Though I bet if you asked church leaders, you would not get a 57%. Probably not consensus on that. That's just no.

[00:21:23] Preston Meyer: That's just, uh, Christians.

[00:21:24] Katie Dooley: Who are being bad and pretending they're not being bad. Yeah, I don't think it's bad. You do. You boo.

[00:21:30] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Not everybody can agree on what the rules are. So not everybody's going to follow the same rules. That's the deal. A lot of these beliefs are influenced by the Hebrew Bible, and there's not a lot written in the New Testament about sex, particularly, um, there are talks of adulterers like the woman caught in adultery who Jesus was perfectly fine, saying, well, unless you're actually perfect, mind your business. So that was nice that the.

[00:22:01] Katie Dooley: He throw the first stone. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Um, Jesus.

[00:22:05] Preston Meyer: The tricky bit about that particular section of scripture is that it is not found in any of the oldest versions of the Gospel of John. I was going to.

[00:22:14] Katie Dooley: Say I remember reading somewhere that that I think it was the Reza Aslan book zealot that even the, the wording of it was kind of weird. So they believe it was added. After. Yeah, not actually a.

[00:22:26] Preston Meyer: The oldest manuscripts we have don't include that story. So it's interesting that it got included when it was a time when people were very happy to say, you're the wrong kind of Christian, go away. It's just interesting bit of history. Good story. It's a positive thing to include in this story that, you know, the whole deal of Jesus is that we forgive people and we can be better. So if it fits the narrative really well. And we also have another part of the story where he says, if you're going to lust after somebody, you've already had sex with them in your heart.

[00:23:03] Katie Dooley: This will cause problems in some fundamental Christian groups later, which we'll talk about. Yeah, women cover up now.

[00:23:13] Preston Meyer: I'm kidding. Get that thought out of here. I mean.

[00:23:16] Katie Dooley: Cover up your bodies because men are visual creatures. I don't know what that makes women, but men are visual creatures. So anyway.

[00:23:27] Preston Meyer: It's weird that so much of our culture includes this story, that men and women are coded so completely differently.

[00:23:35] Katie Dooley: I mean, I read a lot in this research and I didn't put anything in it, but like talking about different levels of sexual desire, I'm like, are we still talking about that? Because turning Red talked about how horny teen girls are and I loved it.

[00:23:52] Preston Meyer: I never watched it, but I'm glad somebody addressed it. Yeah, because that was a teen at the time that this film is set. I am aware of that.

[00:24:00] Katie Dooley: I know that's why I loved it. I was like, this is about me. Oh, see, that's ten years ago.

[00:24:06] Preston Meyer: It's not about me. So it's not drawing me in with the same power, I guess.

[00:24:11] Katie Dooley: But it talked about how horny pre-teen girls are, and I was like, yes, accurate.

[00:24:15] Preston Meyer: Which, I mean, you're not selling me on it that I need to watch it, that it doesn't feel like it's for me or about me.

[00:24:25] Katie Dooley: It's it's heartwarming. Okay. They just at least there's lust after a boy band, which we all did.

[00:24:31] Preston Meyer: I mean, not me, but. Not all men, Katie.

[00:24:41] Katie Dooley: Anyway, as I was saying, um, you're not coded that differently. Women have eyes. Yeah, and, like, looking at. Henry Cavill. Of course, if you're listening, please be on the podcast.

[00:24:59] Preston Meyer: Speaking of how we are coated, not terribly differently. There is this idea that's called Marianismo, which is basically just the alternative, the well, the exact opposite of machismo, which I thought was really interesting.

[00:25:16] Katie Dooley: I've never heard the term before.

[00:25:17] Preston Meyer: Yeah, it doesn't come up terribly often in regular conversation. It is the ideal feminine. In their book The Maria Paradox, therapists Gil and Vasquez recorded the beliefs they found among many of their patients that they claim are the core of Marianismo. Oh no. And they are all just awful. I mean, differing degrees, but they're not good news. The first. Don't forget the place of a woman.

[00:25:47] Katie Dooley: What's that? Is that okay? Where's the kitchen? Get out of my house.

[00:25:52] Preston Meyer: The bedroom.

[00:25:56] Katie Dooley: Well, you know why I can't cook as good as my husband.

[00:25:58] Preston Meyer: The home broadly, I don't know. So. Tricky business in the workplace. You got to establish what you mean wherever.

[00:26:07] Katie Dooley: The fuck they want to be.

[00:26:09] Preston Meyer: Right. That's the real truth of it. But these ideas persist. Next on our list. Don't give up your traditions, okay? I can. But how about. Thoughtfully evaluate your traditions. Not everything needs to be kept going. Like if you're cutting the tips off your roasts before you throw them in the oven. Just because you watch your mom and your grandma do it. There might not be a reason. If the whole thing fits in the roaster, throw the whole thing in without cutting it.

[00:26:46] Katie Dooley: Preston likes his roast tips.

[00:26:48] Preston Meyer: Why not? Uh, next. Don't be an old maid independent or have your own opinions. Don't do it. Katie, it's not worth it.

[00:27:00] Katie Dooley: Ah, I wanna say something, but that's an opinion.

[00:27:06] Preston Meyer: Uh, yeah. Why is that a healthy way to live your life?

[00:27:11] Katie Dooley: Well, that's good that you want an independent wife with her own opinions.

[00:27:15] Preston Meyer: I think it's really, really useful. Good. Um, next on your list. Don't put your needs first. I mean. I understand the social utility of taking care of the people around you, but sometimes you got to take care of you.

[00:27:31] Katie Dooley: There's a reason that the airplanes say you put on your mask first before your kids. Yes. Always put your needs first. I mean, within reason. If you're not picking your kids up from school because you're at the spa, maybe you need to reevaluate. But, um.

[00:27:48] Preston Meyer: Uh.

[00:27:49] Katie Dooley: Put on your airplane mask first. Yeah.

[00:27:52] Preston Meyer: Oxygen mask? I was just thinking of way worse examples than the spa to keep you from picking up your kids. They don't need to be aired publicly.

[00:28:01] Katie Dooley: Join us on discord to see how perverse Preston is.

[00:28:05] Preston Meyer: I was just thinking of drugs. Not anything terribly perverted. Just, you know, crack. Okay, I don't know why. That's the thing my friend jumped to from spa. But here we are.

[00:28:19] Katie Dooley: Don't wish to be anything but a housewife. Not great. I mean, to be fair, you did ask Brian if I could be a housewife today because I was really sick of work. But.

[00:28:30] Preston Meyer: But you also have other aspirations. I do, and they don't make you less of a good person. They don't make you less of a woman.

[00:28:40] Katie Dooley: Thank you. Yeah. Also, ladies, don't forget sex is to make babies, not pleasure.

[00:28:48] Preston Meyer: Yeah, that's a problem. What? We've already addressed that.

[00:28:53] Katie Dooley: I was scrolling Instagram Reels because. As one does. And I came across this comedian who was clearly like a doctor or a gynecologist or a former one, and this pregnant lady came in and she was freaking out and she didn't know what was wrong with her. And she had an orgasm, her first orgasm, and she was pregnant and she didn't know what was wrong with her. Isn't that the most depressing thing? It is depressing.

[00:29:18] Preston Meyer: I mean, it's a little funny, but it is depressing.

[00:29:22] Katie Dooley: And they make a baby. I mean.

[00:29:25] Preston Meyer: I think, you know, at this point, I think, you know.

[00:29:29] Katie Dooley: It's so sad.

[00:29:31] Preston Meyer: Mhm. Yeah. Some people become horse girls. Other people go a long time without ever knowing. Uh oh. Well.

[00:29:45] Katie Dooley: Moment of silence, please. I said silence. Carry on. Don't be unhappy with your man, no matter what he does to you. Ladies.

[00:30:02] Preston Meyer: This is extremely problematic.

[00:30:06] Katie Dooley: Incredibly problematic.

[00:30:08] Preston Meyer: Oh well.

[00:30:09] Katie Dooley: I wonder why rates of abuse are so high in some of these fundamentalist communities.

[00:30:14] Preston Meyer: Mhm. Don't ask anyone other than your husband for help under any circumstances. Because of course, really what's behind that is you're not allowed to talk to other men. Which is a huge problem.

[00:30:30] Katie Dooley: So for our listeners, my husband works out of town like quite frequently, and if I didn't have Preston and a whole slew of other men, that sounds terrible. Um, nothing would get done around this house. The number of times press has moved heavy shit for me. A plus. Plus read.

[00:30:48] Preston Meyer: Thanks. Uh, yeah. It's it's okay to talk to people of the opposite gender or whatever. You don't have to be isolated to a tiny group of the population around you. You can spread that out a little bit more.

[00:31:05] Katie Dooley: Don't discuss your personal problems outside the house. Don't get therapy or call the police. Right?

[00:31:13] Preston Meyer: What could go wrong? There's a degree to which I agree with this. But there comes a time when you need to seek outside help. And the last on the list don't change.

[00:31:28] Katie Dooley: Very vague. And also impossible, right?

[00:31:33] Preston Meyer: Like, yeah, I get it. A lot of people end up disappointed when the person they married changes in the wrong way that they weren't expecting. And then you're not the one I married. Sure, you can't expect people to not change, though.

[00:31:49] Katie Dooley: She will get haggard and all that is guaranteed, right? Especially if you treat her according to this list.

[00:31:56] Preston Meyer: Yeah.

[00:31:58] Katie Dooley: She'll stay younger longer if you give her orgasms. Facts.

[00:32:02] Preston Meyer: Sounds good to me.

[00:32:04] Katie Dooley: Thanks.

[00:32:06] Preston Meyer: And that's marianismo. The opposite of machismo. That needs no explanation at all.

[00:32:13] Katie Dooley: So now we're going to talk about Christian purity culture. I think we could do a whole lot on this. There's a lot I left out.

[00:32:18] Preston Meyer: I mean.

[00:32:19] Katie Dooley: If we get.

[00:32:20] Preston Meyer: The heart of it here, we'll see what happens.

[00:32:21] Katie Dooley: I was going to say, if you want a full episode on purity culture after this little tidbit, drop a note in our discord in our Christianity channel.

[00:32:29] Preston Meyer: Hmm'hmm.

[00:32:31] Katie Dooley: So Preston's kind of alluded to it with the marianismo. But there is this idea of biblical womanhood that to do God's will, women need to submit to their husbands in every aspect of their life. Yay! This includes what to wear, what their schedule looks like, and being ready and willing to satisfy his sexual needs.

[00:32:54] Preston Meyer: I mean, somebody's a winner here, and it's not the woman you know.

[00:33:00] Katie Dooley: The Duggars allude to this in some episodes of like. Preparing for marriage. And this is also why she is 37. Children.

[00:33:07] Preston Meyer: That's too many.

[00:33:09] Katie Dooley: I don't think it's actually 19. I think.

[00:33:12] Preston Meyer: That sounds more correct.

[00:33:13] Katie Dooley: But there was a lot of women out there with a lot of kids because of this.

[00:33:17] Preston Meyer: Was it 19 and counting? Was that the name of it?

[00:33:20] Katie Dooley: I think by the end it started at like 14 kids and counting. Okay. She had okay. Pew pew pew pew pew.

[00:33:27] Preston Meyer: Ah. The good thing about that is that it gets easier with time.

[00:33:31] Katie Dooley: Yeah, I think that's just the thing. It's just like a slip and slide by the end.

[00:33:35] Preston Meyer: Yeah, I think.

[00:33:36] Katie Dooley: The whole uterus comes out by the end and you gotta take.

[00:33:40] Preston Meyer: There comes a time when the whole thing just collapses and says, please, no, more like.

[00:33:44] Katie Dooley: Like a cow. You take like a broom handle back in.

[00:33:48] Preston Meyer: It's a terrible image, I.

[00:33:50] Katie Dooley: Know, but I'm pretty sure that's where she's at now. Anyway, thanks for that. Whoa. So I figured this is a type of grooming. It starts at a young age with purity culture. There's purity balls and purity rings and purity vows. Uh, and Jesus. And this is very important, is that Jesus is your boyfriend. So boys don't have an equivalent, right? Jesus is your boyfriend. Mhm. So there's no dating, only courtship. Um, so what? No dating, only courtship, which is just like, basically the young man is trying to impress your father on chaperon dates so that he will. Your father will sell you to this boy.

[00:34:34] Preston Meyer: I mean, that's what it adds up to.

[00:34:36] Katie Dooley: Yeah, sure. Um.

[00:34:38] Preston Meyer: Not cool.

[00:34:39] Katie Dooley: So, I mean, obviously there's a lot, like you said, go turn on the Duggars on TLC. Lots of Christians still like purity culture. But now purity culture really became a thing in the 90s. And now we're starting to see all the negative effects of, like, people hating themselves.

[00:34:54] Preston Meyer: And everyone around them.

[00:34:56] Katie Dooley: And everyone around them. It's just not healthy. 20 years later, it's more like 30 years later. Huh? Uh, time is terrible. The child of the 90s, I'm like, no, but, uh, there are lots and lots of articles on how bad purity culture is, which is where I think we could do a full episode, because I didn't even have the gum analogy, which now I'm going to have to explain the gum analogy.

[00:35:18] Preston Meyer: I think we've talked about that before on the show.

[00:35:20] Katie Dooley: Well, if we haven't, Preston, would you want a piece of gum that's been chewed by someone else?

[00:35:26] Preston Meyer: I mean, in truth, that depends on who the person is.

[00:35:32] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So you wouldn't want a woman who's had sex with another man.

[00:35:36] Preston Meyer: Is that the same as chewed up gum?

[00:35:37] Katie Dooley: It's exactly the same as chewed up gum. No, it's not gross.

[00:35:42] Preston Meyer: That's a gross analogy. It's not okay. Especially if you know you're into the Christian context that this comes from where forgiveness is actually a far more important doctrine.

[00:35:56] Katie Dooley: It's like these people don't know JC at all.

[00:35:58] Preston Meyer: Yes, that's the reality.

[00:36:01] Katie Dooley: Um, so I don't I don't anyway, purity culture is a set of beliefs that emphasize the importance of sexual purity. And again, this is really popular in fundamentalist evangelical communities. Premarital sex.

[00:36:15] Preston Meyer: Bad, terrible sin. Like the idea in these groups is that the only thing you could do worse than that is commit murder.

[00:36:25] Katie Dooley: Yes.

[00:36:26] Preston Meyer: And some people are still willing to get really angry at people for having sex outside of marriage and then go commit murder.

[00:36:37] Katie Dooley: Right. Yes. So basically, you know, they're very much that you'll hear is that like the greatest gift of of all is giving your virginity your husband, and you're taking that away from him. Anyway.

[00:36:51] Preston Meyer: It's not healthy.

[00:36:52] Katie Dooley: Like Preston mentioned, men and women are definitely held to different standards here. Women are expected to be chaste and modest, and men become these protectors of virginity. And it's really weird and gross that.

[00:37:06] Preston Meyer: Men are still expected to be chaste and modest, too.

[00:37:09] Katie Dooley: Absolutely. But it's not a double standard.

[00:37:10] Preston Meyer: But there there's a little bit more forgiveness for them.

[00:37:15] Katie Dooley: They can get away with it, with it, without anyone knowing.

[00:37:19] Preston Meyer: Pretty much. Yeah. I mean, that's if they get caught. There is the public shame thing sometimes depending on the group, but mostly the rules are still the same. It's just one gets forgiven a lot more easily.

[00:37:33] Katie Dooley: Uh, and again, this is a lot of like where men are visual creatures and don't lead your brothers into sin and all that garbage.

[00:37:41] Preston Meyer: Yeah. What did Jesus say on the subject?

[00:37:44] Katie Dooley: Jay-z said, if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away.

[00:37:48] Preston Meyer: Yeah. So don't go shouting at other people about how they're dressed. Just pull your eyeballs out.

[00:37:53] Katie Dooley: I forget Matthew 528.

[00:37:56] Preston Meyer: I am so terrible at citations, I don't remember.

[00:37:59] Katie Dooley: Exactly. Try to remember unless.

[00:38:01] Preston Meyer: It's written down.

[00:38:03] Katie Dooley: Oh, I'm super close.

[00:38:04] Preston Meyer: But that is the context of the point.

[00:38:09] Katie Dooley: I'm real close, but I don't actually see the quote.

[00:38:11] Preston Meyer: Yeah, 528 was, uh, the hole in your heart business.

[00:38:16] Katie Dooley: Anyway, that's a good one to remember, everyone.

[00:38:19] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Jesus said, if you can't stop looking at a girl, pull out your eyeballs.

[00:38:26] Katie Dooley: Love it. Yeah. Good job. Good God. Jesus. Yeah. So like you said, we know that there's lots of negative mental health consequences, guilt and shame. And, um, we know part of this is we know abstinence only sex ed doesn't work. That plays into this a little bit. Yeah, that's.

[00:38:44] Preston Meyer: Only failed everywhere. It's been done.

[00:38:47] Katie Dooley: Terribly. Yeah. It's bad. And there's a lot, like you said, a lot of these pieces of, like, states that often have abstinence only sex ed have really high pregnancy rates and no abortion laws.

[00:38:59] Preston Meyer: And when you say no abortion laws, you do mean anti-abortion laws. Yeah.

[00:39:04] Katie Dooley: Yeah. As in abortion is not protected by the law. Yeah, but you're right. I said that backwards.

[00:39:11] Preston Meyer: Um, it's a problem. Yeah.

[00:39:13] Katie Dooley: Purity rings, uh, were very popular in the 2000 with the Jonas Brothers and Miley Cyrus and Selena Gomez, Demi Lovato all wearing purity rings. Guess how many of them kept that pledge? Zero zero is correct.

[00:39:34] Preston Meyer: Uh, there are less famous people who have kept that pledge. Probably not lots and lots, but there are some.

[00:39:41] Katie Dooley: I mean, there's something about being a celebrity and having attractive people throw themselves at you. Yeah, the average human eye can pay someone to have sex with me. Until my husband came along. Oh, boy, that was a personal overshare.

[00:39:57] Preston Meyer: Thanks.

[00:39:58] Katie Dooley: Thanks, Brian. Uh, also purity balls. Super creepy. Super creepy. Have you watched purity?

[00:40:08] Preston Meyer: I've seen a video of one, and I am so glad that's not part of my experience growing up.

[00:40:14] Katie Dooley: So to paint a picture though, there are some great YouTube videos. And maybe if we remember, we'll pop some into the Christianity discord when this releases. Today, they're like kind of 10 to 12 year old girls. They're very young.

[00:40:31] Preston Meyer: So not really worried about sex at the moment.

[00:40:33] Katie Dooley: No, probably not even fully understanding what sex is probably.

[00:40:37] Preston Meyer: I mean, considering where these are happening, very likely.

[00:40:41] Katie Dooley: So also creepy that like, you know, we talk these people talk about drag queens grooming children and you're having a purity ball. Yeah. Anyway, that's the deal. They wear little white dresses and they walk down an aisle with their fathers. And they make a vow to each other because.

[00:41:00] Preston Meyer: You wouldn't cheat on your dad, right?

[00:41:02] Katie Dooley: You wouldn't cheat on your daddy. And so you promised to your daddy that you're not going to have sex before marriage. And then he promises to protect your chastity and dignity, and he gives you your purity ring. And if that's not the creepiest fucking thing you've ever heard.

[00:41:23] Preston Meyer: Okay, so I can I can get on board. On with the whole father's side of what his pledge is of protecting her. With my preferred interpretation, protecting her from things she doesn't want to have happen.

[00:41:40] Katie Dooley: I like that.

[00:41:41] Preston Meyer: And I think that's okay, but. Beyond that, you get into some really sticky problems.

[00:41:51] Katie Dooley: Yes. Also, I just like to note that these purity balls also typically have just the biggest fucking crucifix you've ever seen. And I just think that adds to the creepiness. That's fair. That's just me.

[00:42:06] Preston Meyer: Yeah. What's really unfortunate is how very frequently these men who pledge to protect their daughters, fail to protect their daughters from family. And sometimes themselves.

[00:42:22] Katie Dooley: Oh, you mean like the Duggars?

[00:42:24] Preston Meyer: That's a good example.

[00:42:25] Katie Dooley: Thank you.

[00:42:28] Preston Meyer: It's weird how often they come up today, but we got what we got.

[00:42:31] Katie Dooley: They're just the perfect example of all that is wrong. With this.

[00:42:38] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Um, and kind of connected to this whole purity culture thing is what Sigmund Freud liked to call the Madonna whore complex.

[00:42:47] Katie Dooley: Like a virgin touched for the very first time.

[00:42:52] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Madonna really played up this whole complex thing that that was her bit.

[00:42:58] Katie Dooley: But you do meet the Madonna, Mother Mary, not the singer. Well, now.

[00:43:03] Preston Meyer: We're on both.

[00:43:04] Katie Dooley: Now we're talking about both. I love this. See how my singing has brought us all together?

[00:43:10] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And I feel like purity culture is actually really influenced how Madonna whore complex comes out and becomes visible in the world. It's it's been a thing for a while, but. And purity culture has two. It's just not the same as it was 200 years ago or whatever. But it was originally labeled the Madonna Whore Complex by Sigmund Freud. And though he's wrong about a lot of things, including his explanation for where this all comes from, it's still a reality that is seen all over the world today. The idea is that men see women as one of two feminine archetypes that are pretty much the same ways we see women in the Bible, unfortunately, is that you have either the saintly mother or the dirty whore.

[00:44:02] Katie Dooley: Yeah, yeah. Women in the streets but a freak in the sheets.

[00:44:08] Preston Meyer: Ah, and such a thing is a problem for people who have this complex. Yes. People who see the world through this lens refuse to acknowledge that the people they admire are sexual beings, and they refuse to acknowledge the people who satisfy any sexual appetite. Are worthy of love, and said they think that they're unworthy of love. It's really a problem when you start just having this harsh dichotomy in the world. Yes. And most harsh dichotomies are a problem. Let's be real. Freud had all this idea that it's connected to how every man has an Oedipus complex and ridiculous things like that.

[00:44:52] Katie Dooley: You don't want to have sex with your mom? No. Okay.

[00:44:57] Preston Meyer: Um, but there are still a lot of people who struggle with this way of looking at the world that obviously, if you are interested in sex, you're a whore and you're a terrible person. And I could never have you in my family to raise my kids. Or the alternative of now you've married somebody that you've been chasing for a while, who's lived this whole purity life that you're told is supposed to be great. And once you have sex with her, you lose interest in her romantically. Because now she's a whore and has no value. It's terrible.

[00:45:35] Katie Dooley: Yeah, well, I mean, that's another thing we didn't even talk about for purity culture is that there's so much pressure on the wedding night that often it's really bad.

[00:45:45] Preston Meyer: I mean. It's it's an unfortunate reality that most people have really bad sex. Their wedding night, whereas this could have been solved with better education, maybe a little bit of practice.

[00:46:04] Katie Dooley: But then they also feel kind of like you said, but they feel shame on their wedding night, even though because they've been told it's bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad bad, and signing a piece of paper all of a sudden can't change 20 plus years of.

[00:46:17] Preston Meyer: Sexist.

[00:46:18] Katie Dooley: Terrible, bad, you'll get pregnant and die. Yeah. Mean girls.

[00:46:24] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Ah. Of course, this complex is not limited to men. Women also have been known to see men in this same dichotomy. It seems to be a lot less common, but it's out there. It happens because men and women aren't coded that differently.

[00:46:44] Katie Dooley: Gentlemen in the streets. But I'm freaking the cheese.

[00:46:51] Preston Meyer: Thanks.

[00:46:51] Katie Dooley: I don't even know what I'm saying.

[00:46:53] Preston Meyer: So contrary to Freud, modern suggestions connect this in in the two ways women are described in Christian Bibles and also popular southeastern European mythologies. It's more about the stories we keep telling are part of the problem. So tell better stories. Live better lives. And maybe the next generation would just be a little bit less messed up. That'd be nice, right?

[00:47:19] Katie Dooley: So moving on to Islam. We unpacked a lot with Christianity.

[00:47:24] Preston Meyer: Yeah. I mean, to be fair. Everybody in our Western hemisphere has to be exposed to the pressure of the Christian norm. Making it the norm feels weird, but that's what we have. But you're also going to be exposed to Muslims if you live on this planet. Yes. At some point. Yeah.

[00:47:47] Katie Dooley: I'm like the other Abrahamic traditions, Islam, like sex to be confined to marriage only. Uh, Muslim women are only permitted to marry Muslim men. But Muslim men can marry a woman of any Abrahamic faith.

[00:48:02] Preston Meyer: Yeah. It's this is a pretty good example of a weird double standard. Uh, the idea is that a child must follow the faith of the father. But this gets tricky, because in Judaism, your mother has to be a Jew. So if a muslim man marries a Jewish woman, you do have some conflict.

[00:48:27] Katie Dooley: You've had a Christian.

[00:48:30] Preston Meyer: That has happened. It's not like it doesn't cause problems.

[00:48:35] Katie Dooley: But quite problematic.

[00:48:36] Preston Meyer: Islam does discourage celibacy, unlike some Christian traditions that we've talked about before. And much like in Judaism, Islamic tradition dictates that a person is ritually unclean after sex. This means that they're forbidden from touching the Quran or participating in the salaat those mandatory prayers until they have cleaned up that which is good. Yeah, clean up after sex. It's the healthy thing to do.

[00:49:04] Katie Dooley: Don't touch things in your house when you're covered in milkshake.

[00:49:12] Preston Meyer: Thanks for that.

[00:49:13] Katie Dooley: Well. You're welcome.

[00:49:17] Preston Meyer: Ah, yay discord chats! For those of you listening carefully, this may be a clue to what day this was actually recorded. Uh, and the same also applies during menstruation. Just clean up, and then you can participate in silat and actually touch the Quran to read it.

[00:49:38] Katie Dooley: Uh, of course we know Islam is quite a modest religion, and people are quite familiar with the hijab, which is worn by some Muslim women. And so the only men allowed to see a muslim woman's hair she chooses to wear the hijab are her or her husband and men that she can't be married to. So her brothers, her uncles on her mom's side. That's kind of it.

[00:50:00] Preston Meyer: Yeah. And on some parts of the Jewish world also live by a very similar rule. We got good old Moira Rose and her many wigs as a pretty visible example. In popular culture.

[00:50:14] Katie Dooley: Uh, men, though in Islam, also have dress requirements that encourage modesty. There are parts of their body that they're not allowed to show. Public nudity is haram.

[00:50:23] Preston Meyer: Yeah. That's fair. It's also forbidden for partners to share details of their intimacy with others. We talked about this in Marianismo could be problematic, but you know.

[00:50:39] Katie Dooley: Only if he's bad to you, right? If he's good to you, then that's something to share over a child.

[00:50:46] Preston Meyer: No. Sure. Uh, while it must be prefaced that there is diversity of thought on the subject, many imams are happy to tell global audiences that if a man has no beard, he is womanly and is inviting others to sin by committing sodomy. Not everybody agrees on this. That's a good thing, because a beard isn't what makes a man.

[00:51:11] Katie Dooley: Nope. You can't grow a beard. What do you mean, just grow a sad, patchy thing?

[00:51:18] Preston Meyer: Then you flaunt it. You let it be weird and patchy and you keep that hair on. That's. That's the rule of the law that a lot of Muslim subcultures really enforce in really unfortunate ways. Anal sex is also strictly forbidden in Islam.

[00:51:39] Katie Dooley: Even between a man and a woman. Yeah. No anal sex?

[00:51:42] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Um, oral sex is also a huge. No, no. Uh, well, okay, this there's some variety on that that some schools of thought say it's okay as long as you don't swallow anything, but others are like, no, the whole deal is haram.

[00:51:59] Katie Dooley: Can you make the noise for our audience? That probably has never been in a real episode, but we sound check with it all the time.

[00:52:09] Preston Meyer: Is that everything you wanted it to be?

[00:52:11] Katie Dooley: I guess so we'll see what kind of complaints we get this week.

[00:52:16] Preston Meyer: Uh, well. It happened.

[00:52:18] Katie Dooley: How do you write that out? That'd be a good episode name.

[00:52:21] Preston Meyer: I have no idea how you would spell that. Uh, but so far, we've just stuck to the Abrahamic faiths. That's not a great global representation. So let's take a just one step further to the east.

[00:52:36] Katie Dooley: All right.

[00:52:37] Preston Meyer: So the dharmic religions also have something to say, generally a lot less sex positive with some exceptions.

[00:52:47] Katie Dooley: Yeah. I was actually just thinking we're going to have to do an episode maybe next day on religions that are more sex positive because the, the, the big ones aren't.

[00:53:01] Preston Meyer: I mean, the fun part of that is most of the most sex positive religious groups are danger cults.

[00:53:10] Katie Dooley: That's true.

[00:53:11] Preston Meyer: Not all, but definitely most.

[00:53:14] Katie Dooley: Well, we'll find some. This time next year, guys. Sex cults.

[00:53:22] Preston Meyer: Perfect. Uh, so generally speaking, Buddhism is really not such a fan. Any sort of craving is the cause of suffering. That's what the Buddha said. Not in English. So it's not a perfect word for word what he said. But you get the idea. There aren't really strict laws that universally apply to all Buddhists, but monastic traditions do have strict laws against sex of any kind. No exceptions, not even for procreation. So I guess the idea is, if you're really committed to getting off this rock and escaping. The reality is we know it. And becoming one with Brahma that you just wouldn't be trying to repopulate the marble. Bare masturbation is also counted as serious sexual misconduct. There's only four things that generally will get you kicked out of most monasteries. There's probably some that have additional rules. These are the big four for the vast majority. There's also, you know, having sex to start with, also murder, theft and falsely claiming a superhuman superhuman ability.

[00:54:34] Katie Dooley: Okay. But if you truthfully claim a superhuman ability, you're fine.

[00:54:38] Preston Meyer: Yeah. If you can prove it. The rock on. All right. But if you claim that you are so pious that you can float above the ground, you better show that off. If you can't prove it, you're out of the monastery, right? Yeah. Uh, in one Japanese Buddhist tradition, sex isn't so bad. I thought it was actually kind of interesting to find that there is this particular exception to the norm. As long as you don't think about it all the time. Because, of course, craving is suffering, so you should avoid it. But sex isn't so bad. Many such Buddhists live long term relationships with prostitutes and geishas, which I was surprised. Like once you got a relationship, you've got a bond, you've got an attachment. Attachment is the problem. Yeah, but we still have it. They're avoiding the attachment of marriage. They just keep going to the same prostitute and whatever. If your religion doesn't say it's bad, what else is there to say that it's bad? Also, some groups make distinctions, generally between the bad that is sex in general and a more specific, worse homosexual activity. Most don't make that distinction, but some do. I mean, just don't have sex at all. And the species that's that's the goal.

[00:56:09] Katie Dooley: In Hinduism, sex is broadly expected to be for procreation, but sex for pleasure is also generally expected, especially within marriage. Extramarital sex is taboo. Most people agree with that.

[00:56:22] Preston Meyer: Well, I mean, extramarital includes premarital. Yeah, like any sex outside marriage. Yeah. Adulterous adultery is definitely part of that and is worse than taboo. That's straight up. You're going to have a really bad time and it's not going to last very long.

[00:56:40] Katie Dooley: While it is expected that a woman's hymen should break and bleed on the wedding night, that flood is seen as destructive, so a Brahmin is called to bless the sheets in the union after the fact to ensure a long and happy marriage.

[00:56:53] Preston Meyer: What a weird thing to do.

[00:56:54] Katie Dooley: That all over the world for a very long time. I just feel so invasive. Right?

[00:57:01] Preston Meyer: Yeah. Oh, well, in a way somewhat similar to the levirate marriage of Judaism. When a woman is united with her brother in law to raise children to belong to her dead husband, the common Hindu expectation is that the bride belongs to the family of her dead husband, and will either remain unmarried or will be united with a near relative to raise children for her dead husband's family. Similar but different.

[00:57:27] Katie Dooley: Yes, but I added this even though it doesn't have too terribly much to do with sex, but the the practice of sati. Have you heard of this?

[00:57:37] Preston Meyer: I'm sure I have.

[00:57:38] Katie Dooley: But it is the practice of self immolation. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. For a widow, she would throw herself on her husband's funeral pyre to die with him. Yeah.

[00:57:48] Preston Meyer: That doesn't make things better.

[00:57:51] Katie Dooley: Yes and no. Like, really bad for the woman. Yeah, but the practice started to remove the woman from the inheritance. But then also with widespread poverty, nobody wants to look after the widow. And being a time when women just stayed at home and raised kids and looked after the house, she had no skills to make money. So it was just removing. A burden. Air quotes. Not a real burden. People have value, um, from society. Yeah. So while there were lots of problems with the British colonizing colonization of India, they did actually put in laws to prohibit sati.

[00:58:30] Preston Meyer: Not that it doesn't happen. It's just I think.

[00:58:33] Katie Dooley: It's pretty uncommon now. But they also have a billion people. So I'm not saying we should bring it back.

[00:58:40] Preston Meyer: Didn't India just surpass China as the most populous nation? I think so, yeah. Not that one thing is connected to the other. It's just a novel thing.

[00:58:52] Katie Dooley: But let's get into what everyone's really here for. Preston, the Kama Sutra.

[00:58:57] Preston Meyer: Ooh, the sexiest book.

[00:58:59] Katie Dooley: Of all time. Sexiest book in the world. So a sutra is a writing. Yeah, and kama means desire or longing.

[00:59:10] Preston Meyer: Um. Sexy book, sexy book.

[00:59:13] Katie Dooley: Uh, suppressing. Contrary to popular belief, the Kama Sutra is not entirely about sex.

[00:59:17] Preston Meyer: I mean. It is sex only penile vaginal interaction.

[00:59:25] Katie Dooley: Um, no. But it also includes details on how to find a partner, how to court that partner. Throw a.

[00:59:32] Preston Meyer: Rock. You'll hit somebody. They'll make a noise. You found her.

[00:59:36] Katie Dooley: Wow. Is that how you landed, Amanda? I'm.

[00:59:41] Preston Meyer: Uh. No.

[00:59:45] Katie Dooley: Alpha how to keep them happy, some of which is sexual, but it also includes chapters on the philosophy of love and self-care.

[00:59:54] Preston Meyer: That's an all encompassing book more people should read. You can also get it as a manga. Oh yeah, you probably shouldn't, but you could.

[01:00:05] Katie Dooley: I want to now.

[01:00:06] Preston Meyer: Okay, I actually spotted it in, uh, one of the used bookstores.

[01:00:10] Katie Dooley: Oh, I don't get it from a used bookstore. Buy it new.

[01:00:14] Preston Meyer: Yeah.

[01:00:14] Katie Dooley: Spend the extra. Hey. $20.

[01:00:17] Preston Meyer: If the pages are stuck together, that means they learn something.

[01:00:19] Katie Dooley: No. Buy it. Let's do this. So. Wow. So as I mentioned, kama means longing, desire or wish. And it's one of the four goals of life in Hinduism. While it does typically refer to sexual desire, it can also broadly refer to any sort of passion, affection, or love. The first mention of the Kama Sutra dates back to 900, somewhere between 900 BC and 700 BCE. And it's a mixture of poetry and prose, and it incorporates Hindu mythology.

[01:00:56] Preston Meyer: The stories that you need to get you there.

[01:01:03] Speaker3: Huh?

[01:01:04] Preston Meyer: It's not like it's. I'm not throwing shade. Shade. The Bible's got it, too. I know.

[01:01:10] Katie Dooley: I know. Uh, and if you'll remember from our Religious Posers episode, the commentator uses asanas, the physical poses. Just like yoga.

[01:01:22] Preston Meyer: So if you're looking for a new idea, this book might just have it for you.

[01:01:27] Katie Dooley: Yeah. So the Kama Sutra is like this. Yeah. It's also a physical side of yoga. Mhm.

[01:01:37] Preston Meyer: That's great. Yeah.

[01:01:38] Katie Dooley: Maybe we should do it for our book club.

[01:01:41] Preston Meyer: No, that doesn't seem like a good choice.

[01:01:44] Katie Dooley: That doesn't sound like something we should share. Uh. But, Preston, what if someone did want to get in on our book club? Not about the Kama Sutra.

[01:01:55] Preston Meyer: Well, definitely our Patreon. That's the number one way. Also, if you want to maintain a discussion with us about what you want to read. Discord is a great way to connect so we can talk about that rather than just signing up to our Patreon. Valuable. Helpful helps us pay for all of this, but. We want to hear from you!

[01:02:19] Katie Dooley: Also on our Patreon we have bonus episodes and early release for everything. Um, and if the subscription model isn't for you, we have some sick merch on Spreadshirt.

[01:02:29] Preston Meyer: So much fun, great things.

[01:02:31] Katie Dooley: And we'd like to thank our patron Lisa for supporting the show.

[01:02:36] Preston Meyer: Thank you.

[01:02:37] Speaker3: Lisa.

[01:02:38] Preston Meyer: Peace be with you.

[01:02:41] By the late Middle Ages, Christian Protestant.