Medical/Miracle

Sometimes it's hard to know who to believe, sometimes it isn't: Do you believe the person who has studied the finest details of physical health and wellness for upwards of a decade, or do you trust your pastor who thinks that God couldn't possibly reveal those secrets to anybody willing to test such principles? Unfortunately, that's the dichotomy we find in the world today. Christian Nationalists have actively led the crusade against medicine for most of the last two centuries, but there's some interesting nuances among the more moderate groups that we're happy to explore with you this week. 

Hospitals were a Christian invention, so why do so many distrust them? Maybe part of the problem is that most of our history has us going to our priests/shamans/knowledge holders to get healed....

President Richard Nixon was the subject of a lot of satire. Relative to his predecessors, he's an outlier in many ways, not least of all was his membership in the Quaker community. This informed his decision to protect parents from legal repercussions for medical neglect. 

We also have some data from Pew Research Center that makes a lot of religious groups look bad, relative to vaccine hesitancy.

Unleavened Bread Ministries has taken the lives of several children in the name of being "Pure Blood," including 11-year-old Madeline Kara Neumann, who simply needed a regular insulin supplement for diabetes. 

So many people are calling vaccines a secret poison masquerading as a cure, if only they read their Bibles (Mark 16:18).

The faithful among "Jehovah's Witnesses" avoid blood transfusions, the Amish avoid heart transplants, and "Christian Scientists" typically avoid medicine in all its forms. Muslims avoid medical products derived from swine, and Hindus tend to avoid medical products derived from any animals. Interestingly enough, Seventh-Day Adventists still run hospitals, and the head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a retired heart surgeon.

We dive deep into the story of Doctor PP Quimby and Mary Baker Eddy, and how mesmerism burrowed into the "Science of Health."

From Tim Minchin's “Storm”: "Alternative medicine… Has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine." 

Watch  Dr. Glen Fairen's discussion of COVID-19 vaccines and the Apocalypse on YouTube

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Episode Transcript

Katie Dooley  00:12

Hi, everyone. My name is Katie. 

Preston Meyer  00:14

Hi, Katie. I'm Preston.

Katie Dooley  00:18

And this is.

Both Hosts  00:19

The Holy Watermelon podcast,

Katie Dooley  00:22

I thought an intro would be like an introduction. Would be nice. Occasionally.

Preston Meyer  00:27

All they know is our names. We haven't described who we are and why we're here.

Katie Dooley  00:32

Oh, I got to go back to the trailer for that.

Preston Meyer  00:35

Should we introduced ourselves a little more often?

Katie Dooley  00:37

probably. Join our Discord. I mean, sure. It's the end of January 2023 Already, which blows my mind. 

Preston Meyer  00:49

We've been doing this for a couple of years.

Katie Dooley  00:50

Couple years. I'm a resident atheist.

Preston Meyer  00:54

And I'm a Christian and graduate in this exact field of studies 

Katie Dooley  00:59

and an all-around great guy.

Preston Meyer  01:00

Thanks. I am glad you think so. You're pretty good for an atheist too. Most atheists are better than most Christians.

Katie Dooley  01:11

Oh, wow. 

Preston Meyer  01:12

Wow. Okay, that that could be an exaggeration, but probably not by a lot. 

Katie Dooley  01:15

You know one reason atheists tend to be better than Christians is that they don't just let their children die in the name of the Lord.

Preston Meyer  01:22

That specific detail is true.

Katie Dooley  01:28

Wow I just said it. Today we're talking about religion and medicine, and how religion and religious beliefs affect your belief of science.

Preston Meyer  01:39

Yeah, man, what a roller coaster. There's some interesting things we've been able to uncover. And definitely lots of bad news, which we cannot cover every news story that falls into this category. Of course,

Katie Dooley  01:55

there were some, there were some really sad ones.

Preston Meyer  01:58

But yeah, generally, problems have come up.

Katie Dooley  02:02

Yeah. Which is so weird. Because historically, the hospital system as we know, it is a Christian invention.

Preston Meyer  02:10

Yeah. Hospitality. And I mean, even the word that we have for hotels now, all of that this is, comes from the need to take care of people who don't have somewhere else to be, especially the people who straight up can't take care of themselves at all.

Katie Dooley  02:28

Yeah, so the first hospitals were kind of an amalgamation of both hospitals as we know them, but also hostels and food banks and or soup kitchens, and yeah they just take care of everyone that couldn't. That needs some extra help. And then obviously, we started segregating those things. And a lot of healers, or medical people were priests to begin with.

Preston Meyer  02:53

Well, anciently, if we look at the biblical tradition, and this was pretty standard for most societies around the world, your healers, your medical practitioners, were the priesthood. Those are the people that could read who were keeping notes on things that worked and didn't work.

Katie Dooley  03:12

Because they could also write 

Preston Meyer  03:13

Yeah,

Katie Dooley  03:13

most people couldn't. 

Preston Meyer  03:14

Yeah. Yeah. The the craft of literacy and, and writing was all practically magic to the layperson.

Katie Dooley  03:24

Yeah. So then things somewhere along the way, went horribly wrong.

Preston Meyer  03:30

They sure did. 

Katie Dooley  03:32

Yeah. So there's a lot of Christian groups that and I mean, Preston I'll get your hot take on this. But there are science deniers, and I know a lot of that stems from having to reconcile evolution with what's written in the Bible. So it feels like they just are like, Well, science isn't real, because how can Noah work then? Good enough. So they deny science. And then by extension, things like medicine, and most recently, with the pandemic, things like vaccines are being denied for their efficacy.

Preston Meyer  04:08

Imagine this just for a moment. 

Katie Dooley  04:10

Okay?

Preston Meyer  04:11

Do you you live on this planet? 

Katie Dooley  04:14

I do. I don't need to imagine that kay.   No, I don't like that.

Preston Meyer  04:16

So far, you're with me, right? All right. Now imagine going through life, not ever being able to predict the outcome of any action ever.  No, that's absolute nonsense. You know that when you put one foot in front of the next one, it's going to meet the ground that you can see, and that as you shift your weight, you can propel yourself forward. That's science.

Katie Dooley  04:45

That just reminded me of a really bad joke.

Preston Meyer  04:48

If you're going to pour yourself a glass of water, that's science. We have reliably proven that the exercises to accomplish these tasks work.

Katie Dooley  05:00

Yeah. And I mean, we can go go back to our early episodes, but there was a time when things couldn't be proven. So we use religion to prove them

Preston Meyer  05:11

All kinds of fancy hypotheses for all sorts of things we didn't understand. And then we studied them,

Katie Dooley  05:17

Then we figured it out which is awesome. But yeah, but would I be right to say that a lot of this anti science comes from trying to reconcile the Bible that if you're a fundamentalist and believe is true to the word, even though there are stories we know are not true stories, then you have to cut out science?

Preston Meyer  05:32

You don't have to

Katie Dooley  05:35

But then how did Noah work if you have science?! It doesn't!

Preston Meyer  05:41

Yeah, things get complicated when you try and make stories that are primarily symbolic.

Katie Dooley  05:48

Doesn't work.So if you do the literal truth, then we Yeah,

Preston Meyer  05:54

you're gonna have a hard time.  Yeah. And so it's weird that the and this is definitely throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you're just Oh, science disproves this one thing that I believe really strongly, really effectively, then I'm gonna have to stop believing literally everything under the banner of science. Weird choice.

Katie Dooley  05:55

Gonna have a hard time. You think so? But again, a lot of people let their kid die over this. So  Yeah, we found a whole bunch of Christian denominations that do this. The followers of Christ in the early 2000s, this group had a child mortality rate 10 times higher than the state average of where they were located, which was the state of Idaho, because they liked faith heailings... 

Preston Meyer  06:25

yeah.  Yeah,

Katie Dooley  06:46

instead of real doctors. 

Preston Meyer  06:48

Yeah,

Katie Dooley  06:49

one thing that was also really terrifying that I guess benefited, benefited the followers of Christ. Also, we're going to talk about Christian scientists later also benefited Christian scientists, is that President Nixon actually made a ruling that required states to pass exemptions to child medical treatment based off of a religious exemption. So basically, parents couldn't go to jail if their child died, because they made a medical choice based off of their religion, so you can charge them with like, neglect, or murder. So that was really cool.

Preston Meyer  07:24

So I'm fully on board with the whole the government won't impose laws on what you believe. But the government has an awful lot of laws on how you can act in our shared society. And our actions are founded on the things that we believe about the world around us. So we need to convince people to change their beliefs.

Katie Dooley  07:49

Well, you know, comes back we've done a lot of episodes on this everything from our parody religions episode to atheism, and Satanism of like, that's great that you want to kill your kid but like, I can't just like make up a rule for religious religious exemption. 

Preston Meyer  08:05

Right.

Katie Dooley  08:06

Right. If we can just do things because we say but I'm religious like it would, everything would become chaos.

Preston Meyer  08:12

You just gotta stop telling the government you're an atheist. And then you get all kinds of fancy freedom. 

Katie Dooley  08:17

Cool. Okay, well, I believe in Russell's teapot and Russell's teapot tells me I get to be naked 24/7 in public, so I cannot go to jail for public indecency. Like, you can't just do that Preston.

Preston Meyer  08:31

That depends where you live.

Katie Dooley  08:35

I mean, I know

Preston Meyer  08:36

I mean, full nude still prohibited in most places, but

Katie Dooley  08:40

Handful of nude beaches you can go to

Preston Meyer  08:41

but you can be fully topless in most parts of Canada. I mean, we also have the weather that discourages that

Katie Dooley  08:51

like right now, right but you just can't have your wiener hanging out Preston.

Preston Meyer  08:56

Noo.

Katie Dooley  08:58

And you can't... You know, if everyone just said, Well, it's because I'm religious.

Preston Meyer  09:03

Well, though, okay. We do know that members of the clergy have definitely been caught with their wiener in places where it does not belong and get away with it because they claim religiousness. There had been way too many times where somebody who has been a pastor for a while diddled a couple of kids went, went to court and got a reduced sentence because he's a man of faith. When clearly his actions say he's not

Katie Dooley  09:37

anyway, we just hopped on a soapbox for a minute there. This was eventually repealed in 1983, which I guess is good, but it was around for a while where you couldn't go to jail if you killed your kid. So A+ President Nixon,

Preston Meyer  09:53

right. Yeah, that was that was interesting. Christian Nationalism is a little bit of a problem.

Katie Dooley  10:01

Yeah. I mean, you were on I was just remembering the other day you were on a podcast talking about some of this stuff progressive versus... 

Preston Meyer  10:08

Yeah...

Katie Dooley  10:08

Not progressive Christianity.

Preston Meyer  10:12

Yeah, it was a little while ago now, actually. But it was good time.

Katie Dooley  10:15

I'm the villain. 

Preston Meyer  10:17

Yeah,

Katie Dooley  10:17

check out Preston. 

Preston Meyer  10:18

Man that was... it feels like so long ago.

Katie Dooley  10:22

Yeah, real scary stuff, especially when it came to the pandemic.

Preston Meyer  10:27

Yeah, I mean, Christian Nationalism has been a problem in North America for almost a century. But things got really weird over the COVID crisis, and all kinds of people shouting about their rights to avoid this poison. I want to get a little bit more into that later. But it's just crazy that 45% of white evangelical adults said they would not be vaccinated. That is a staggeringly large number. And this idea is not just in like a couple of weird little nationalist groups, either it had spread through a lot of Christianity. But the nationalists got really gross about it.

Katie Dooley  11:15

And like bizarre about it, one of the articles I read that Christian nationalists have said that the vaccine is the mark of the beast, as prophesized in the Revelation of John, because it prevented people from buying and selling, air quotes, "without the mark".

Preston Meyer  11:33

Yeah. Our recent guest, Dr. Glenn Farron has shown up in other shows, examining this exact phenomenon, it's really fascinating.

Katie Dooley  11:44

And terrifying. 

Preston Meyer  11:45

Yeah, it's weird. 

Katie Dooley  11:47

Okay, as because we introduced ourselves as our resident Christian, why do you think it's taken such a hold on Christianity,

Preston Meyer  11:54

we have this frustrating problem where there's been this prediction of a whole bunch of signs that will mark the coming of the Savior. And it's been many, many centuries, where it's kind of been a building tension. We've got all kinds of apocalyptical groups popping up more and more recently, but they've been around for a while. And when we see anything that can fit into that framework that's built to be a thing of interpretation, rather than a one for one obvious comparison kind of deal as something that people really latch on to. And so when you see this part in the scripture that says, without this mark, you won't get to participate in the economic part of society, then you, you fear that maybe this is a parallel to what is happening with oh, you need your COVID passport to go into a store. Instead of recognizing, oh, I have a civil responsibility to do my best to take care of the people around me. And that's why I'm being shunned. But because I don't want to help out. It's so much more fun. And self aggrandizing to see everyone else as the villain, rather than admit that you're the one causing harm. That's the problem.

Katie Dooley  13:24

Mormons believe in the Second Coming, yeah? 

Preston Meyer  13:27

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  13:27

Okay. Is there any piece of this, that's like, people wanting it to happen? 

Preston Meyer  13:32

Oh for sure!

Katie Dooley  13:33

Yeah?

Preston Meyer  13:34

Absolutely.

Katie Dooley  13:35

They just want to be on the bleeding edge. So Jesus takes them up.  

Preston Meyer  13:40

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  13:40

With them

Preston Meyer  13:41

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  13:42

They don't want to be wrong. 

Preston Meyer  13:43

Hey?

Katie Dooley  13:43

They don't want to be wrong. They don't want to take the mark of the beast, and then Jesus will be like, No, sorry.

Preston Meyer  13:48

Yeah, you don't want to do anything wrong. Because what if this is the end? What if this is the trial, I don't want to fail.

Katie Dooley  13:55

Okay.

Preston Meyer  13:56

I need to be as faithful as I possibly can. Even if that means I've screwed up. It's okay to make mistakes, you're forgiven for mistakes, as long as they're genuine mistakes, and not me skipping out on opportunities to be better. But I mean, all it takes is a little bit of extra thinking.

Katie Dooley  14:19

It just anyway, goes back to love your neighbor. We've talked about this a lot this month, actually.

Preston Meyer  14:25

And so many people have a hard time realizing that that's the number one thing. Jesus wasn't ambiguous about this. But it's hard to love your neighbor sometimes. Especially if your neighbor is anti-Vaxxer.

Katie Dooley  14:44

You know, I realized during this podcast, I like Jesus a lot more now and Christianity a lot less. 

Preston Meyer  14:50

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  14:51

Like if you asked me three years ago, if I like Jesus would be like, like, like, no, like, I don't know, but I actually kind of think he's a cool guy.

Preston Meyer  14:58

I appreciate that you have, in your head, separated the man from the fan club.

Katie Dooley  15:02

Yeah. And the the more I learned, the more they're getting very separate in my head.

Preston Meyer  15:07

They are very very different I mean, yeah, there's more than one fan club, most of the fan clubs suck.

Katie Dooley  15:15

So what we should do is start our own fan club! I am kidding, that doesn't solve the issue.

Preston Meyer  15:19

What more parties?!?

Katie Dooley  15:24

more denomination Okay. In the United States religious conservatism, including the evangelical and born again Christianity movement is associated with lower levels of trust in science, rates of vaccine vaccine uptake, vaccine knowledge and higher levels of vaccine hesitancy.

Preston Meyer  15:44

Yeah, research has found that religiosity is negatively associated with plans to receive the COVID vaccine, which is a huge bummer. And one religious worldview, especially hostile to science and vaccines is the Christian nationalism movement. It's caused a fair bit of problems, distrusting the government is fair to to a degree. So not the same thing that sees a rebellion a whole year ago, or a couple of years ago now, January 6. But, you know, fun

Katie Dooley  16:24

Is it fun? One of these groups I found and just because they came up in the news for killing a child, and I put an asterick Preston I will let you guide me on how much we actually talked about this group was the unleavened bread ministries, and I'm big Asterix in our show notes. They say, I barely want to give this man any attention, because he's fucking crazy.

Preston Meyer  16:46

I mean, that's fair.

Katie Dooley  16:48

So I'll probably just not say the pastor's name.

Preston Meyer  16:51

I think that's the right way.

Katie Dooley  16:52

So in 2008, an 11-year-old girl, Madeline Cara Newman died of diabetes complications that were very manageable, and very treatable. She literally just needed some insulin, which is really sad, but instead her parents opted for prayer.

Preston Meyer  17:11

Yeah, it's not the only headline, but it happens. And I don't know why people want to deny that, medicine is a gift. If you believe that God gives us all the good things, and we've studied the universe to understand creation, which is the way a lot of religions do look at it. Knowing that, oh, now that we know more about this thing, we can help people. Why not jump on that?

Katie Dooley  17:42

So we're, so her parents were part of this Unleavened Bread Ministries, and so I decided to go to their website. I really hope I'm not retargeted for anything, because that was something that was not pleasant. You can tune into their radio. 24/7 they actually say tune into our radio channel, 24/7 Which implies they want you to listen to it 24/7.  Not that it's on 24/7, which was scary.

Preston Meyer  18:09

I mean, that's how you get your ad revenue. Right?  I think if you were to listen to us 24/7 right now

Katie Dooley  18:13

I guess so. You should listen to the Holy Watermelon podcast 24/7  you just have five days

Preston Meyer  18:23

Yeah, just couple of days of content, and then you're on repeat. 

Katie Dooley  18:28

That's fine.

Preston Meyer  18:28

I mean, 

Katie Dooley  18:29

I'm okay with it.

Preston Meyer  18:30

You know, maybe some people would be better for it.

Katie Dooley  18:32

So basically, this pastor tells to pray away COVID and others other diseases, but he also recommended Ivermectin and hydro hydro ox so Chloroquine hydro- 

Preston Meyer  18:47

hydroxychloroquine?

Katie Dooley  18:48

that one that makes you go blind or whatever, as well which was insanity. To me, it's like you should pray but if you don't feel like praying, take something that will kill you. 

Preston Meyer  18:58

The vaccine is poison, but

Katie Dooley  19:01

Ivermectin is totally fine...

Preston Meyer  19:04

So-

Katie Dooley  19:05

So I have in my notes I wrote "not sure if grifter or cult leader"

Preston Meyer  19:10

it's, it's problematic. What's interesting to me, is there is a reasonably common belief among these Christian extremists, let's call them what they are, that the vaccine is poison. And I've heard several times that all these people who took the vaccine they're gonna be dead in five years or less.

Katie Dooley  19:35

Did you see this quote? "Fully vaccinated people-" this is from the pastor again, his name I won't say fully, "vaccinated people are now suffering from what looks like the Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome, better known as AIDS. Their immune system is fading as many have warned." so both Preston and I apparently have AIDS.

Preston Meyer  19:54

Apparently.

Katie Dooley  19:57

Most of our friends also apparently have AIDS.

Preston Meyer  20:01

Yeah. So what I was getting to this idea that this vaccine is poison. And remember, the vast majority of us are taking the vaccine to either protect ourselves, or to protect the people around us because we care about them. So they're here. Here's a passage from Mark chapter 16. Gospel of Mark, it's Jesus speaking, it's after he's been resurrected, he's teaching the remaining apostles because Judas is gone. He's not with them. And he says, Those who believe in Me will be able to drink poison without being hurt. I mean, there's a bit about snakes in there, there's, there's all kinds of little bits I skipped. But I added the beginning and the end together to give you the good bit, that if you believe, and if you do actually believe you want to help your neighbors and protect them, then it sounds like the Lord says, You got nothing to fear from this vaccine. 

Katie Dooley  21:00

Yeah, well. 

Preston Meyer  21:03

But to be fair, that is a personal interpretation of Scripture, that is at least as valid as the opposing argument.

Katie Dooley  21:18

So one of the arguments I wrote in, in these, nothing short of crazy articles was that, and this kind of goes back to the Nixon thing is that some of these groups have argued like, well, if a doctor, someone dies under a doctor's watch, the doctor doesn't get charged. So just because we weren't successful in our prayer circle, doesn't mean we should be charged.  Oh Preston... Preston's face is gold right now.

Preston Meyer  21:47

So while it's very tricky to charge a doctor- 

Katie Dooley  21:54

Unless it's malpractice.

Preston Meyer  21:55

Right, and it's very tricky to sue a doctor, they have training to do the things that are they're expected to do. And the rest of us are told with, I would say, a close to equivalent value of repetition of take your people to a doctor. So when we fail step one of the process to not even give the doctor a chance to screw up or do the great thing that we need. Wit and it's usually a success, that is neglect. And I would say in an awful lot of situations a criminal neglect.

Katie Dooley  22:38

I just had a weird thought- 

Preston Meyer  22:39

Yeah?

Katie Dooley  22:40

that's not in our notes. America in particular, and I mean, Canada, to some extent, as well, prides itself on being a Christian nation. 

Preston Meyer  22:50

Yup

Katie Dooley  22:51

Christianity started the first hospitals to help people. Yeah, that couldn't help themselves. And America doesn't have free health care.

Preston Meyer  23:00

Nope

Katie Dooley  23:01

Those things don't all go together, do they? 

Preston Meyer  23:03

No, they don't.

Katie Dooley  23:04

Okay.

Preston Meyer  23:06

It sounds like you understand perfectly.

Katie Dooley  23:09

I do, I do. I understand the pieces, but the why? I am perplexed by because Jesus would have wanted public health care.

Preston Meyer  23:20

So we've already talked about the prosperity gospel-

Katie Dooley  23:22

we have,

Preston Meyer  23:23

and nothing on this planet is more American than publi-

Katie Dooley  23:28

Grifting!

Preston Meyer  23:29

Than grifting! Yeah! Maybe the the next best thing would be mass extermination, which I mean, is connected to this in some sort of way.

Katie Dooley  23:45

All right. Well, I feel like we're being very critical today. But

Preston Meyer  23:50

sometimes you got to be and that it comes with the territory and today's subject. 

Katie Dooley  23:56

Totally. Then there are groups that have very specific rules around medicine. Not necessarily, these sort of broad-

Preston Meyer  23:57

Yeah,

Katie Dooley  23:59

don't believe in science.

Preston Meyer  24:05

A lot of groups generally like the idea of science. Oh, yeah, I guess this thing has been proven. Let's go with it. With exceptions.

Katie Dooley  24:14

So there's the Jehovah Witnesses are almost famous for it, they do not accept blood transfusions. So overall, they're pretty cool with medicine and science, unless you need a blood transfusion.

Preston Meyer  24:28

Yeah, Prince was a pretty well-known star, and almost as well known that he was one of Jehovah's Witnesses. And he had some wicked hip pain for a long time. And it is speculated hard to confirm things now that he's gone, that it took him a while to get the hip surgery he needed, because hip surgery almost always comes with a major blood transfusion. Cuz, you know, open up pretty high traffic area in the body. 

Katie Dooley  25:04

Yeah.

Preston Meyer  25:05

And so it's a big problem. So it's generally discouraged that because of the blood transfusion hip surgery is a tricky thing to try to navigate as a Jehovah's Witness.

Katie Dooley  25:15

Yeah, I, this is ages ago, and I didn't find them for this. And we'll do a full episode on Jehovah Witnesses one day, but the number of parents that when their kid needs a blood transfusion, start to question their faith pretty

Preston Meyer  25:32

it's a healthy perspective.

Katie Dooley  25:34

Totally! But it's interesting, like, I didn't pull up blood transfusion statistics, but especially probably before 50 Most people do not need a blood transfusion unless you're, you know, touch wood in a car accident or something. But I'm learning a blood transfusion and presume you never need a blood transfusion. So it's pretty easy to be like, oh, yeah, fine. I cannot accept someone else's blood until you need to accept someone else's blood. 

Preston Meyer  25:59

Right? Well, and I think it's really interesting that I've, I've heard stories of people who say that after a blood transfusion, my brother-sister-loved one is just a totally different person. And so obviously, it's because the spirits in the blood, and that's now, now they are a different person. The weird thing about that is they totally ignore the possibility that a incident that requires a blood transfusion is a life changing experience! He's probably traumatized. It's things like cancer and major accidents, while recognizing your own mortality. Sometimes it's all it takes to really change how you want to deal with the world around you. It's a weird thing to hear people say, but I mean, the facts are the facts. They behave differently. Sure, fine. Or maybe you're reading more into it than is real, and they haven't changed as much as you think. But you expect them to be different because there's this idea of a different soul in the body. 

Katie Dooley  27:02

Sounds like...

Preston Meyer  27:03

it's a spectrum. I can't say that it's all one thing or all the other, but I bet you it's a mix of the two

Katie Dooley  27:09

Totally. So there's three Bible passages that Jehovah's Witnesses cite for not accepting blood transfusions, so I'm gonna read them so we can get Preston's hot take on them

Preston Meyer  27:19

Perfect

Katie Dooley  27:19

first- and who knows how-

Preston Meyer  27:20

I like it. 

Katie Dooley  27:21

So Genesis nine "for you shall not eat flesh with its life. That is, its blood."

Preston Meyer  27:28

All right. So part of the context that we have here is, this is a document of how the Lord's people should be different than their neighbours. What makes them different. A lot of the people around them their neighbours, would ritually consume blood.

Katie Dooley  27:48

That's blood in the mouth?

Preston Meyer  27:50

Yes, eating blood.

Katie Dooley  27:52

I think we need that to be clear.

Preston Meyer  27:54

I have eaten blood, or a blood adjacent substance, on a, on a few occasions. It is delicious.

Katie Dooley  28:06

As someone who enjoys a good black pudding, yes. I prefer white pudding though, which doesn't have the blood. But I won't say no to the black pudding. 

Preston Meyer  28:14

Right. So you can take my interpretation of this however you want, I suppose. I don't think that there is a spiritual reason. I think this is more of a this separates the people of Israel from their neighbours. Just another way to mark that we are different from them kind of deal. 

Katie Dooley  28:35

All right.

Preston Meyer  28:36

And I mean building an us versus them philosophy isn't the healthiest choice. But here we are.

Katie Dooley  28:43

In Genesis, what makes a Jewish person a Jewish person, right?

Preston Meyer  28:46

I mean, that's really what Genesis and the tour of the Tanakh are all about.

Katie Dooley  28:51

Alright, so the next one is Leviticus 17:10. "If anyone of the house of Israel or of the aliens who reside among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut that person off from the people." 

Preston Meyer  29:07

So-

Katie Dooley  29:08

that God speaking? 

Preston Meyer  29:09

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  29:09

Wow.

Preston Meyer  29:10

So the short version of this is, if this person insists on eating blood, they will be excommunicated. Or exiled, depending on whether or not the church has a monopoly on national politics. Excommunicated if they're out in an area that's diverse like ours, exiled from the nation if you have a monopoly.

Katie Dooley  29:37

And again, this is blood in the mouth?

Preston Meyer  29:39

Yes. Do not eat blood

Katie Dooley  29:41

Okay, because this is where I-

Preston Meyer  29:43

and it doesn't actually mean human blood. Cannibalism is an entirely separate law. This is don't eat the blood of the cattle and the livestock and the pigeons and everything else that you bring in for sacrifices,

Katie Dooley  29:57

Right, which is part of the kosher process. 

Preston Meyer  29:59

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  30:00

That seems super fun. Acts 15:28 to 29. "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials. That you have seen from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourself from these, you will do well. Farewell."

Preston Meyer  30:22

I mean, I like having such a short list very convenient. Don't eat things that are sacrificed to false gods. Easy. Generally speaking, though, there are other parts where Paul does specifically say you know what? It's okay to eat something sacrificed to idols, if that's all there is to eat. Just remember, the gods aren't real. But be grateful that you have something to eat. So, even in these essentials- 

Katie Dooley  30:55

There's still an asterisk!

Preston Meyer  30:56

There's an asterisk yeah. But again, don't eat blood is still on the list.

Katie Dooley  31:03

So again, blood in the mouth. 

Preston Meyer  31:05

Yes. Do not eat from these animals that you need. And then of course, there's don't eat anything that's been strangled. Which

Katie Dooley  31:19

the meat would be tough.

Preston Meyer  31:22

It's better to quick kill rather than choke. Because then it's got fight in it.

Katie Dooley  31:27

Yeah. All the muscles not-

Preston Meyer  31:29

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  31:30

I'm gonna be plugged meat. And then don't have sex.

Preston Meyer  31:35

Which Yeah, totally unrelated to the previous three things. While fornication isn't just sex, fornication is extramarital sex.

Katie Dooley  31:45

Oh, specific.

Preston Meyer  31:46

Yeah, fornication is dirty sex. I it's, it's specifically that sex which is unapproved by society.

Katie Dooley  31:55

Well, wait till next episode.

Preston Meyer  32:00

Yeah, we'll get a little more details there for you. But yeah, so in Old and New Testament for the Christians who are super concerned about it. That's the deal, is that you should not EAT ANIMAL BLOOD.

Katie Dooley  32:15

So they don't let you take any blood. Even if it's not in your mouth.

Preston Meyer  32:21

Yeah, life-saving apparently not that big a deal. If it's your time to go. It's your time to go kind of philosophy. Which sucks if you could have survived with the tools available to you.

Katie Dooley  32:32

Now there are bloodless surgeries and blood alternatives.

Preston Meyer  32:40

Which sounds really weird. 

Katie Dooley  32:42

I mean, I'm kind of that person. Like, if you can have the real thing. Why wouldn't you have the real thing? Like if you're not allergic to milk? Or lactose intolerant. Why would you squeeze the shit out of an almond?

Preston Meyer  32:54

Right?!?

Katie Dooley  32:56

Like, you know, and I mean, I get lactose intolerance is a thing. Don't get me wrong.

Preston Meyer  33:02

I'm lactose intolerant. I have- 

Katie Dooley  33:04

I didn't know that!

Preston Meyer  33:05

way more dairy in my diet than I should.

Katie Dooley  33:10

The fact that I didn't know that you're lactose intolerant until this moment tells you that you do.

Preston Meyer  33:15

I'm lactose-sensitive, not lactose intolerant. I correct that there are times when I am way more sensitive than at other times. The night before I got married. 

Katie Dooley  33:28

Ohno, ohno!

Preston Meyer  33:29

We stopped at one of the great drive-throughs and got the classic, real good, absolutely delicious milkshake. And I was ruined by the time...

Katie Dooley  33:41

Ohhh you, noooo!

Preston Meyer  33:45

So everyone else is setting up the chapel for decorations and the tables and everything. And I was just camped out somewhere else. But this week, I've gone through a whole litre of eggnog and plenty of milk and no issues. 

Katie Dooley  34:04

All right, well. So yeah, I mean, I guess like I said before, it's great to say you don't accept a blood transfusion until you're one of the 4.5 million people a year in North America that needs one.

Preston Meyer  34:16

I'm curious because I haven't been able to find anything. And maybe I just need to talk to somebody who's got specific religious authority to make such a declaration, how they might feel higher up among the witnesses about synthetic blood. I don't know how they'll feel about that.

Katie Dooley  34:38

Members that willingly and knowingly accept blood transfusions are often disfellowshipped. And generally, like I said, they when witnesses are encouraged for medical help other than this weird blood thing, which I feel like they haven't run by God ever but what do I know?

Preston Meyer  34:54

Right. And a similar limitation for some reason the Amish and some other Mennonites but not all Mennonites believe that the spirit specifically lives in the heart. And you know, if you're watching a movie and you get to a real emotional part and you feel a twinge in your heart, I can see why they might come to that conclusion. 

Katie Dooley  35:18

When you see your husband who I haven't seen in three weeks!

Preston Meyer  35:22

Right?! When you feel that in your chest, it does make sense that you can believe your spirit resides in or near your heart fine. Feels a little bit weird, but I get it. So specifically, the Amish, while they have a tricky relationship with modern medicine, they do specifically avoid anything that would be even close to a heart transplant, because that's the soul. And yet, there's sometimes exceptions to that...

Katie Dooley  35:55

Asterisk! It's a spectrum!

Preston Meyer  35:59

Yeah. There have been children who have been born with heart defects that are so severe that before baptism, because as an Anabaptist, you are baptized later in life instead of as a child. Like in the Catholic tradition. They are okay with a heart transplant in a young child... sometimes.

Katie Dooley  36:23

Asterisk. I was born with a hole in my heart, maybe that's why I'm an atheist.

Preston Meyer  36:28

Is it a Jesus-shaped hole in your heart?

Katie Dooley  36:29

I don't... I don't know. I, that was 32 years ago.

Preston Meyer  36:35

Is the hole still there?

Katie Dooley  36:36

No it healed up.

Preston Meyer  36:37

It just healed up? 

Katie Dooley  36:38

Yep. Sometimes they heal up on their own. Sometimes they need surgery to make the switch.

Preston Meyer  36:41

Well see that's the weird thing about making people from a clump of cells is that when you're born, you still got a lot of growing to do.

Katie Dooley  36:51

So apparently, I looked into this like a million years ago, apparently, like when you're born and finally get oxygen. It is supposed to just like happen. The chambers in your heart close up to what they're supposed to be and mine didn't.

Preston Meyer  37:03

huh!

Katie Dooley  37:04

Yeah!

Preston Meyer  37:05

So that's the thing I don't know much about. But that is cool.

Katie Dooley  37:08

Yeah. Science!

Preston Meyer  37:10

Check out our bonus episode on abortion!  right. It's, it's weird how many churches insist that the Bible says that a baby is a murderable person, before they're born, when the Bible was pretty clear on the detail of, "And he breathed and became a living soul." Now, you're allowed to take that symbolically. But when you do that, you no longer have the Bible backing you up when you say that a baby is alive from conception, or from six months in or whatever. Whatever your arbitrary time is. The Bible doesn't have your back, for any point before birth! Yeah, we get into a lot more detail there!

Katie Dooley  37:51

The next one we're going to talk about are Christian scientists or the Church of Christ, comma scientists is their official name. 

Preston Meyer  38:08

This, this group-

Katie Dooley  38:10

and guess what Preston they hate science.

Preston Meyer  38:14

So this, I've run into a couple of these people over the years that we've got a Christian Science Center downtown. And I've been trying to figure out for a while, how they can get away with feeling comfortable using the word science, and that they call themselves scientists, and absolutely deny the scientific method! The scientific collection of knowledge that we've amassed. I don't get it. 

Katie Dooley  38:51

We will eventually. Again, just like Jehovah's Witnesses we will do a full episode on Christian scientists at some point, but we're just gonna dive into the medical stuff for today's episode.  The Church of Christ scientists was founded by Mary Baker Eddy in the 19th century. And it can actually be traced back. For more if you remember our last episode to Phineas Quimby, the mesmerist!!

Preston Meyer  39:00

Yeah.  Yeah, so she was a patient of his! 

Katie Dooley  39:18

Oh, cool!

Preston Meyer  39:19

Yeah! So that's where this connection comes in. So I did a little bit of more research on this Quimby fella and oh what a trip! So oh...

Katie Dooley  39:31

so Phineas Quimby... I'll let you read your your research but finance can be started that new thought movement which turned also into the prosperity gospel that name it and claim it

Preston Meyer  39:41

Yeah, Dr. PP Quimby which I didn't make up to make this humorous. This is how he styled himself

Katie Dooley  39:52

This is amazing! And I love that we both are so mature that we can just laugh at Dr. PP!

Preston Meyer  39:58

I'm not sure he was a real Dr.

Katie Dooley  40:01

WHAT?!?

Preston Meyer  40:02

I mean, as you learn more about this fella, you'll see why that could have been a problem.   But Dr. Phineas PP. Quimby was a clockmaker. You don't need a doctorate to be a clockmaker-

Katie Dooley  40:09

Yes.  No you don't to be a clockmaker

Preston Meyer  40:21

I mean, you do need tools. Yeah, for sure. And he was convinced that he had found the key to the science of health. This is where the Christian scientists adopted the word and never validated it ever again. The science of health, which of course, is, it's all in your head!

Katie Dooley  40:47

Yet it's it's not. Your feelings and physical ailments are all-

Preston Meyer  40:53

Yeah, this gaping wound in my leg that's making a huge mess of the kitchen is all in my head.

Katie Dooley  41:03

No, it's all on the kitchen floor!

Preston Meyer  41:07

Anyway, Quimby's theory was that there is no intelligence, no power or action in matter of itself. That the spiritual world to which our eyes are closed by ignorance or unbelief, is the real world that in it lie all the causes for every effect visible in the natural world. And then if the spiritual life can be revealed to us, in other words, if we can understand ourselves, we shall then have our happiness or misery in our own hands. That sounds really nice.

Katie Dooley  41:42

Oh, and I believe some of it-

Preston Meyer  41:44

Sure!

Katie Dooley  41:45

we talked, again, we talked about this for prosperity. If you're a positive person, your life will feel more positive. 

Preston Meyer  41:50

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  41:51

But this does not account for gaping leg wounds!

Preston Meyer  41:55

No, or viral infections, bacterial problems! There's a lot of things that you can't control with positive thinking. And this is a proven fact.

Katie Dooley  42:06

Yes.

Preston Meyer  42:07

So, interestingly enough, he was a very busy man. Quimby was treating several patients every day, almost every single day for years, which would be normal if he was a doctor. But he wasn't really a doctor. He would sit next to his patients and explain that their ailment was just in their minds, and that they could control it just by thinking really hard about it. Just convince yourself that everything's fine and it will be! If it was easy to convince yourself of something that wasn't so easy to believe. And then it got weird. Sometimes he would rub their heads with his wet hands. 

Katie Dooley  42:50

Ew! Why were they wet???

Preston Meyer  42:52

Oh, he would dip his hands in water too, and just rub their heads. He later explained that it was the words that did the help. Not the contact with the wet hands. So presumably he was just rubbing their heads with wet hands for his own enjoyment?

Katie Dooley  43:10

That is a very specific fetish, but we don't kink shame at the Holy Watermelon Podcast.

Preston Meyer  43:15

True story.

Katie Dooley  43:16

But we do fake Dr. shame! So carry on!

Preston Meyer  43:20

cause people are weird!

Katie Dooley  43:25

There's various fetishes and rubbing.

Preston Meyer  43:28

I'm okay with if that's your fetish. That's fine. Our-

Katie Dooley  43:32

Is there consent?

Preston Meyer  43:34

That's my question! Are these people participating with informed consent? In what is probably a sexual fetish.

Katie Dooley  43:44

Probably not because it's the 1800's.

Preston Meyer  43:47

Yeah...consent was a tough discussion back then-

Katie Dooley  43:49

Actually still a tough discussion, but that's a different episode! 

Preston Meyer  43:52

But at least it's becoming more mainstream. Now.

Katie Dooley  43:54

Did you know 55% of Canadian men don't actually know what constitutes as consent?

Preston Meyer  44:00

That's an alarming statistic

Katie Dooley  44:02

Yeah. A study came out recently.

Preston Meyer  44:07

Members of Congress are outing themselves all over the place right now saying, Oh, if we have the liberal wrought laws of consent, I would be a sex criminal!

Katie Dooley  44:17

That means you're a sex criminal!

Preston Meyer  44:19

Why would why would you say that?

Katie Dooley  44:22

That means you're a sex criminal. Carry on.

Preston Meyer  44:27

Anyway, Quimby met Mary Baker Eddy in 1862 when she became his patient. And she was already into the the weird spiritual thing. Yeah, which is fine. It's what she started doing with it after she met Quimby that makes it easy to label her as full crazy.

Katie Dooley  44:49

So Eddy basically thought the world was the matrix and the only real world was the spiritual world. And we've created this physical world in our minds.

Preston Meyer  44:59

Neil deGrasse Tyson talks a little bit about how the world is, and the universe is probably just a simulation. So is that really all that different? They both sound crazy.

Katie Dooley  45:11

They both do sound crazy. I mean, we're getting into philosophy, and it already hurts my head is trying to formulate this sentence, but like,

Preston Meyer  45:21

The trick is, it's really easy to believe that the world isn't. The world is as concrete as it looks and feels. But I mean, the things that we found out by just scoping down on to the molecular level is even solid rocks are mostly empty space. 

Katie Dooley  45:39

Yeah.

Preston Meyer  45:41

So it gets pretty easy to say, wow, yeah, there's there's a lot of magic going on here. What is what? Who knows? But it feels like, we're getting some pretty interesting fictions.

Katie Dooley  45:56

Yes. So Eddie also wrote a book called Science and Health, which in addition to the Bible is considered a holy book in the Church of Christ scientists.

Preston Meyer  46:06

Yeah, it's pretty normal to have the founding person's literature as part of your Canon.

Katie Dooley  46:12

It seems like there isn't a lot of Christ in Church of Christ scientists. 

Preston Meyer  46:16

Well, they still have the Bible.

Katie Dooley  46:17

Yeah.

Preston Meyer  46:17

It's just secondary to you have the divine power yourself to heal all your problems.

Katie Dooley  46:25

This goes back to my earlier point, is that I am starting to like JC-

Preston Meyer  46:29

not the fanclub. 

Katie Dooley  46:30

Not the fanclub, all right.

Preston Meyer  46:33

That's fair. 

Katie Dooley  46:33

Okay

Preston Meyer  46:35

Yeah, it's interesting that members of the Church of Christ scientists aren't strictly prohibited from seeking medical attention, but they do avoid it an awful lot. Instead, they just pray. And it's not like your regular prayer. That's like, it's never do the Lord's Prayer, and everything's gonna be fine. It's kind of a, you need to go find a place where you can argue with yourself for a while, just like Mary did with the Nez Marus

Katie Dooley  47:04

Yeah, not even. Yeah. You like, it's weird. I read some instructions on how to pray. And basically, you just like, fight yourself to not feel sick anymore. 

Preston Meyer  47:14

Yeah!

Katie Dooley  47:14

So I am like to Jesus or God, it's like "Don't be sick Katie!"

Preston Meyer  47:19

Right?!

Katie Dooley  47:20

Don't be sick!

Preston Meyer  47:21

which sounds like not just counterproductive, because you're not getting the help you need. But you're tiring yourself out more. So if you were fighting an infection, you're probably worse off than if you hadn't had this internal conflic

Katie Dooley  47:37

I just watch Fraggle Rock when I'm sick. 

Preston Meyer  47:39

Yeah. Does it help?

Katie Dooley  47:40

Yeah.

Preston Meyer  47:40

That's good. Filling your life with positivity is helpful. And there's there's a lot to be said about the placebo effect. That doesn't mean don't seek actual help when there's something wrong that needs help.

Katie Dooley  47:57

Absolutely. There are reports though, even though they aren't specifically prohibited from seeking medical treatment, that members that do opt for medical treatment are often ostracized.

Preston Meyer  48:09

Yeah, but you can hire somebody from the church to come and help you out. You can get a healer, which is like a doctor, but they're making money off of lying to you.

Katie Dooley  48:22

It's actually a Christian Science practitioner, and they're very good at praying!

Preston Meyer  48:27

Are they?

Katie Dooley  48:29

That's what they're trained to do!

Preston Meyer  48:32

So I'll just 11 years well, 12 years ago, now, I guess. There was a practitioner named Frank Prince Wonderlic. If I'm not writing that pronunciation, I'm at least close. Put his his name in the show notes. He said... "all healing is a metaphysical process. That means that there is no person to be healed. No material body, no patient, no matter, no illness, no one to heal, no substance, no person, no thing and no place that needs to be influenced. This is what the practitioner must first be clear about."

Katie Dooley  49:08

It sounds very Scientology.

Preston Meyer  49:11

A little bit yeah! So, I mean, the problem that I have, right off the beginning is, there is nobody that needs to be healed or influenced. When your job is to heal people. Maybe that's not the thing you should be saying.

Katie Dooley  49:28

What are you charging for?

Preston Meyer  49:31

Right? I mean, basically, he's standing here saying, either you don't exist, or you do but nothing else does. So you got nothing to worry about. Which I mean, it may be an extreme interpretation of those words, but that feels really weird when you say there's nothing that needs to be influenced. You're either saying there is no disease at all, or it's not a problem and there is a disease and it is a problem. It's frustrating. And at least 50 Christian scientists have been charged with murder after the children died of very preventable illnesses. Now, of course, it's not first-degree murder that requires premeditation. And the situation is a little premeditated, but not to the degree where it actually counts as premeditated murder.

Katie Dooley  50:29

Then it would be manslaughter in Canada.

Preston Meyer  50:30

Exactly.

Katie Dooley  50:31

Where I think it's third-degree murder in the States is our manslaughter. 

Preston Meyer  50:35

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  50:37

LDS!

Preston Meyer  50:39

Yeah, the LDS tradition is a much healthier place relative to this issue. I'll admit it's a mixed bag, there are a lot of converts to the church who come from a wide variety of backgrounds. A lot of people have believed that you really should just pray and not see a doctor when something is wrong. That if you're having mental health problems, or physical health problems, pray about it, eat your vitamins, get your essential oils, and maybe talk to the bishop for counselling. Most of those are not very good choices, including the last one, your bishop is very seldom a properly trained therapist. But there are cases where he is, and he deserves to be paid for that.

Katie Dooley  51:31

But talk about these elder blessings, because I've heard about it in passing, just being your friend.

Preston Meyer  51:36

Yeah? So while there are encouragement to seek medical attention, there is also encouragement to get a blessing from an elder of the church comes with an anointing of virgin olive oil, and all that fun stuff. And typically, we laid- lay hands on somebody's head and give a blessing of whatever is needed. Very often, there's a promise that you'll be healed. But this does not take the place of seeking medical attention. It is very explicitly stated over the pulpit regularly from the very top that it should not take the place of seeking medical attention.

Katie Dooley  52:17

Well, that's good.

Preston Meyer  52:18

Yeah. Even though some people have a hard time with that. Spectrum! No, church is monolithic. I've given lots of blessings, and that's not because I believe that it's going to fix everything and that you need to go, just pray afterwards. No, sometimes you should get medical attention, depending on what the situation is. Yeah, I don't know. The president of the Church throughout the COVID crisis was a world-renowned heart surgeon, we've got a serious commitment to actually making sure people are healthy, that we can stick around for a long time. The Latter-Day Saints are in some communities longer lived than average. So

Katie Dooley  53:01

Because you don't drink do drugs or anything!

Preston Meyer  53:03

I mean, that's probably a bigger contri-contributor, though, we have our own vices. There's a there's an awful lot of Latter Day Saints who eat a lot more sugar than they ought to.

Katie Dooley  53:15

That's gonna say from the ones I know. Yes. You all feel personally attacked now, I'm so sorry!

Preston Meyer  53:25

But to be fair, the entirety of North American culture with a handful of specific localized exceptions, we eat way more sugar than we really should. So are Mormons to stand out there? Not so much.

Katie Dooley  53:40

Well Okay! Seventh Day Adventists. Again, another Christian denomination, they are typically vegetarians.

Preston Meyer  53:49

Pretty often.

Katie Dooley  53:50

And so they're comfortable with seeking medicine and modern medical and health practices, but they have know, have been known to prefer holistic medicine, kind of in line with that vegetarian thing. So they've been known to follow holistic medicine, which is a phrase that has been used by people who oppose medical treatment, but good doctors also talk about the necessity of keeping the whole body healthy, which is holistic. So

Preston Meyer  54:18

yeah. Dr. Mike even talks about it sometimes.

Katie Dooley  54:22

Is that the YouTube one? 

Preston Meyer  54:23

yeah,

Katie Dooley  54:24

That's kind of cute? 

Both Hosts  54:25

Yeah.

Preston Meyer  54:26

He's a handsome man.

Katie Dooley  54:27

He's very handsome. An Adventist family hit the news in 2014 for failing to get their son proper medical care after being diagnosed with rickets. 

Preston Meyer  54:36

You don't hear about rickets very often!

Katie Dooley  54:38

That's what Tiny Tim had or they speculated it, it's not actually written the book.

Preston Meyer  54:42

I mean, it's it's a work of fiction, so

Katie Dooley  54:45

and then in it's always sunny.

Preston Meyer  54:48

Rickety Cricket!

Katie Dooley  54:49

Rickety Cricket!

Preston Meyer  54:52

Yeah, you know, but, I mean, we put vitamin D in so many things now. 

Katie Dooley  54:56

Yes

Preston Meyer  54:57

Like we encourage children to have cereal with a bowl of milk and all of our milk that you get at the grocery store today has vitamin D in it.

Katie Dooley  55:05

Yeah. So rickets is preventable with vitamin D. 

Preston Meyer  55:07

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  55:08

So, yeah, it's pretty easy to get. So that's really bad.

Preston Meyer  55:13

Pretty easy to not get rickets.

Katie Dooley  55:15

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty easy to get vitamin D Yeah, it really is not easy to get, rickets. So it must be known that they got sucked into the anti medi-medic trap despite warnings from their church.

Preston Meyer  55:30

Yeah, this is not a normal thing within this religious community. There there is even a network of Seventh Day Adventists hospitals where they actually perform real medicine. So it's, it's weird to see this kind of news hit where a family within this religious community just doesn't want to get involved in medicine.

Katie Dooley  55:31

Yep. Now we've been pretty hard on Christians. This episode, specific Christian denominations. 

Preston Meyer  56:03

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  56:04

Spectrum, we know it's not all Christians. But

Preston Meyer  56:06

one, it's not even all people within the dominant denominations we've talked about.

Katie Dooley  56:10

Right, like I said...

Preston Meyer  56:12

Nothing is monolithic.

Katie Dooley  56:13

Yes, so on your deathbed, if you need a blood transfusion, you might change your mind real fast! And people have. 

Preston Meyer  56:19

Yeah!

Katie Dooley  56:19

But we also see it in other religions.

Preston Meyer  56:22

Yeah, the Hindu tradition is kind of interesting, where generally speaking, medicine is favorably talked about. In fact, when we talked about Hinduism, in our introductory episode, there is a whole part of their religious philosophy that deals with different kinds of medicine. How that translates to the modern things can get a little bit fuzzy. But generally speaking, it's pretty positive, because the Vedas were written 1000s of years ago. But it's kind of cool. But there is, of course, a lot of prejudice against doctors from overseas coming to North America. Do they live up to the same medical standards? Investigation always has to go into it, and they usually end up becoming taxi drivers or literally anything else that's easy to get into. Because getting into the doctor's office again, it's really complicated. 

Katie Dooley  57:12

Yeah, there needs to be some better international cooperation there. Because

Preston Meyer  57:17

well, and we do have some doctors who make it and become doctors here

Katie Dooley  57:20

Oh absolutely! 

Preston Meyer  57:20

-relatively quickly. But it's yeah, it's not 100% thing. It's really frustrating. And the interesting thing that I think is worth bringing up here is that while they're cool with medicine, they actually do have an issue as... If they're really into their Hindu faith. Of they have an issue with using animal products in their medicine! Any animal juices! 

Katie Dooley  57:27

Gelatin often quite-

Preston Meyer  57:47

Yeah, we use a lot of different animals stuff in our medicine, which sounds really weird until you actually know a lot about it. And it's like, oh, yeah, that sounds like a natural choice. I'm not an expert. I just trust the people who are.

Katie Dooley  57:59

Fair.

Preston Meyer  58:00

Sihks follow the same Hindu principles. This comes with the whole vegan vegetarian thing that care for the animals. It's not about keeping the body, non animal keeping it pure. It's about respect for the animals. So of course, our First Nations people here in North America are more positive about using the whole animal respecting the animal, but take what you need, and be responsible and respectful with what's left make find a use for it, if you can. So really different way of looking at the world there. Yeah, Islam is interesting that they have similar restrictions to Sikhs and Hindus, but not the same. That you absolutely cannot use any material that comes from swine. swine is haram. But animal products from cows, for example, is fine.

Katie Dooley  58:53

Medical Products from cows. Yes, you said animal products from cows. Which that's true, that is not untrue! 

Preston Meyer  58:59

It's not what i meant-

Katie Dooley  59:00

Its not specific enough

Preston Meyer  59:01

medical products in cows. So I thought that was really interesting. Because you would be haram if you were part pig, I guess. I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm haram anyway. According to their laws.

Katie Dooley  59:14

I mean, yeah, I own a dog so

Preston Meyer  59:17

Oh yeah, there you go. 

Katie Dooley  59:17

Already

Preston Meyer  59:18

Troubles.

Katie Dooley  59:19

Yeah.

Preston Meyer  59:21

Of course, there are exceptions life or death emergencies are validation enough to ignore these prohibitions. Of course, there are a lot more available here in the West, where there's not preexisting prohibitions. Some people like their books more than they like their children. So

Katie Dooley  59:38

I was gonna make sassy comment, but I will refrain for once. I like books better than children. I said it, I said it.

Preston Meyer  59:47

That's fair, but they're not your children.

Katie Dooley  59:49

That's true and I have no interest.

Preston Meyer  59:51

Do you like your books more than Paige?

Katie Dooley  59:53

No, I would save Paige in a fire but not my books. 

Preston Meyer  59:55

See? That's how it goes.

Katie Dooley  59:57

Fair

Preston Meyer  59:58

And that feels like the right choice. 

Katie Dooley  59:59

Thank you! 

Preston Meyer  1:00:00

And Paige isn't even human.

Katie Dooley  1:00:03

But she is real!

Preston Meyer  1:00:04

Yes. She is real!

Katie Dooley  1:00:06

She's a little dog. Yeah, I'll post the picture in Discord just 'cause I like her.

Preston Meyer  1:00:11

Yup. And a few years ago, I heard this great poem from Tim Minchin who we actually mentioned ever so briefly in a, in our most recent interview episode. Storm is the name of the poem by Tim Minchin, and this, this little snippet is just perfect. "Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine!" And that's the deal. It's, I can't think of any better way to explain it. I couldn't get a doctor to say it in a more beautiful way

Katie Dooley  1:00:49

Judas would say something like that... Yeah, so we were pretty hard on people today. But that's okay.

Preston Meyer  1:00:59

That's okay. I don't think we've alienated anybody. 

Katie Dooley  1:01:02

No I think it's, I mean, that's why we exist, is to have conversations about religion, and maybe push some boundaries on beliefs, because no group will get better if we don't.

Preston Meyer  1:01:16

Right. Whether you're Christian, Buddhist, or just really into snails, or atheist. Generally, the best way to run through this life is by caring about each other as people and wanting the best for each other. And that means saving lives when we can in the effective ways through proven methods.

Katie Dooley  1:01:42

You know, what, everyone? In addition to following us on Discord and our Instagram and Facebook this week, I encourage you all to go and donate some blood!

Preston Meyer  1:01:53

I think that's the best civic thing that we can all handle. Unless, of course,

Katie Dooley  1:02:01

unless you can't. 

Preston Meyer  1:02:01

Yeah.

Katie Dooley  1:02:04

You can also support us on our Patreon, where we have early release and bonus episodes and our book club. Thank you to patron Lisa for supporting our podcast. And if the subscription model is not your thing, you can also check out our spread shop where we have some amazing Holy Watermelon merch to make you look fancy in this new year.

Preston Meyer  1:02:26

Thanks for joining us! 

Both Hosts  1:02:27

Peace be with you!