Fake Me To Church

TW: Cults are pretty icky and we talk about abuse in this episode in addition to Katie's potty mouth. 

What is a cult? Like religion, it’s very hard to define what a cult is. In this episode, we go over definitions we like and don’t like. A cult can be a group that is led by someone who doesn’t believe what he teaches but teaches to get gain or a group that you’re scared to leave.

Did you know all religions start as cults? All* religions start as cults. Judaism is historically known as the cult of Yahweh or the cult of Israel. Fervent or zealous believers rallying around a charismatic leader – Christianity, anyone?

Cults take ideas that may have been outside of the previous faith and incorporate them which alienates them from the original group. 

Getting involved in a cult usually starts with being told things you already believe. They tell you things that don’t sound crazy or reiterate things you already believe. Slowly new doctrines are added that are adjacent to your beliefs and over time you are far away from where you started. 

People who join cults are typically pretty normal people. Cults target people who are mentally healthy at a vulnerable part in their life, or at a crossroads. This brings long-term stability to the cult as opposed to members with chronic mental health issues. 

How do we determine if a cult is dangerous, or just an off-shoot of a major religion? 

We discuss the BITE Model of Authoritarian Control. BITE stands for behaviour control, information control, thought control and emotional control. 

If you want to learn more about cults, how they work and how to identify them, check out this episode!

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Both Hosts  00:00
One of us, one of us, one of us!

Katie Dooley  00:18
I've been planning that opening.

Preston Meyer  00:20
I like it.

Katie Dooley  00:24
Because today, we're talking about dun dun dun..

Preston Meyer  00:28
Cults! The danger religions.

Katie Dooley  00:32
Ooo I like that.

Preston Meyer  00:35
From talking to people, that seems to be like the big difference between cults and religions. Of course, scholarly discussion has no use for that definition, but...

Katie Dooley  00:47
We'll get into that in just a minute. We thought this would be a good topic today, because we spent last episode talking about belief and how people believe things more than why people believe things how belief is a...

Preston Meyer  01:03
Super complicated thing

Katie Dooley  01:05
Psychological function so like a philosophical debate

Preston Meyer  01:11
It's so complicated. 

Katie Dooley  01:12
It's complicated

Preston Meyer  01:13
But I love it. 

Katie Dooley  01:14
So we thought we'd make it more complicated by discussing why po-people believe weird things. There's a lot of weird stuff out there. Do we want to start about start with talking about why people get involved in cults to begin with? Or do we want to start with time, but what a cult actually is.

Preston Meyer  01:37
Well see, like religions, or the idea of religion, it's very hard to define in a way where you aren't cutting out things that do belong, and/or including things that don't belong and cults has that exact same problem. The word cult is too nebulous. It's, it's too tricky. I've got a couple of ideas that are helpful for that discussion, for defining the word. But I don't think that they're solid definitions on their own either.

Katie Dooley  02:15
I found some definitions that I pointed out to you that I actually didn't like, because you're right. There's so many exceptions to the rule that yeah, maybe let's start with those three. And I can tell you why I don't like them. If you want to debunk any if you have any rebuttals, I'd love to hear them. The definitions I found break down the difference between a church, a sect and a cult. And again, I don't like any of these. So number one, a church is a conventional religious organization, please go see episode two.

Preston Meyer  02:51

What counts is conventional?

Katie Dooley  02:53

Right? Even big, recognized religions have some really weird belief. So you're... what's the definition of conventional then?

Preston Meyer  03:05

Yeah, like half of the words in this definition are no good. Conventional is entirely subjective. Religious, we've talked about this. We don't have a solid definition on that and organization.

Katie Dooley  03:19

Sure, I'll let organization pass.

Preston Meyer  03:22

There's a general consensus on what that word means. But when it's applied to religious organizations, there's a wide variety on how organized...

Katie Dooley  03:31

We just talked about Shinto, there really isn't any organization in Shinto. So, anyway, so that one was already...

Preston Meyer  03:40

Definition no good 

Katie Dooley  03:41

Just me crumpling up paper but mouth noise. A sect is a deviant religious organization with traditional beliefs and practices. So again, every word in this is like...

Preston Meyer  03:43

There's problems. Most people that start sects think that the group from which they have separated themselves has deviated, and that they're realigning themselves with the correct path. That's usually the argument.

Katie Dooley  04:10

Even if we look at something as vast as Christianity and I think it's going to get picked on quite a bit this episode... When we look at something like Christianity, arguably has hundreds of sects that have broken off from the original, you know, religion that Peter founded in, you know, the first century. So does that mean that the Anabaptists are a sect? Does that mean that Lutherans are a sect? Does that mean? The Orthodox Church is a sect like, no, we wouldn't look at these and think they're deviant organizations, we call them denominations. Oh, when I mean, even if you're a Lutheran, you think anything that came after that would be a sect. Yeah. But you know, I don't think your average North American looks at the Pentecostals and go that's a deviant Christian sect you just "Oh, you're a Pentecostal, okay." And now cults and I even have a problem with this cult is a deviant religious organization with novel beliefs and practices. Which again,

Preston Meyer  04:47

Now, if you're a Catholic, as opposed to a religious scholar. Absolutely, every single one of these groups counts as a sect. What's novel?

Katie Dooley  05:32

We had this conversation in a previous episode, I don't even remember which, but all religions, even developed religions, sprout from existing religions. So there's no religion out there today with novel beliefs and practices. I shouldn't say no, I'm sure there's one or two kicking around. But anything that gets any sort of traction is not novel. And if we look at some of the big dangerous, scary cults, and we'll talk in more detail a little bit today, and then we'll do full episodes later on. But the Branch Davidians they're part of the Seventh Day Adventists. Jim Jones, I don't know he was a Christian preacher. I don't know what denomination of Christianity he was. The Rajneeshees, which we'll get into, but they are a branch of Hinduism it's not novel.

Preston Meyer  06:25

Right. They take ideas that may have been outside of their previously existing religious faith tradition, and incorporate them. And that usually alienates them from another group. So where they need to become a new, separate group. Yeah, that's not a novel thing, maybe novel to that tradition, but it's not a new idea,

Katie Dooley  06:51

Or they put different focus on different aspects of... Right? So even Seventh Day Adventists, as I want to call them a sect of Christianity, they focus on the seventh day. More than other groups might.

Preston Meyer  07:06

Right and they're just a subset of the Adventist movement that may not focus on the seventh day, but having Christ come back on the eighth day

Katie Dooley  07:17

Jehovah Witnesses and the 200,000 people, which is based off of... Or the 144,000 people based off the 12 tribes of Israel, right? They just have a particular focus on this little piece of their book.

Preston Meyer  07:33

Yep. Specifically, excluding those from the tribe of Dan. The revelation is an interesting book and the things that people like to highlight in it are really a fun way to explore how people have dangerous prejudices.

Katie Dooley  07:58

One thing I want to point out this episode, is that all* Because I actually did find someone that argued this point, all religions start as cults.

Preston Meyer  08:09

Pretty much, I mean, from the scholarly point of view of what a cult is, like even Judaism, i's known historically as the cult of Yahweh or the cult of Israel, that that was their unifying faith. And the word cult is used a lot differently in scholarly discourse than it is in common language.

Katie Dooley  08:34

One of the definitions I see pop up is a group of fervent or zealous believers rallying around the charismatic leader. So Jesus?

Preston Meyer  08:46

Jesus was pretty charismatic.

Katie Dooley  08:48

Muhammad? 

Preston Meyer  08:49

Oh, for sure. And they rallied around them. So that fit.

Katie Dooley  08:54

Martin Luther. Henry the Eighth. L Ron Hubbard. So I think we have to be careful how we toss around the term cult, both from I mean, a scholarly perspective, we have to be clear when we're talking about under scholarly terms, like when we said Christianity started as a cult. And also when we're talking about it in the more common connotation of a dangerous group. We have to be clear, I think, sometimes cult is tossed around too loosely and we'll get into an example later on. When it's not actually dangerous. It's just maybe a new or different belief group, and then we label it a cult and maybe it shouldn't be labeled cult

Preston Meyer  09:49

The most useful and how useful it is is still tricky definition that applies to the common use of the word cult, as opposed to the scholarly use of the word would be a group that is led by somebody who doesn't believe what he teaches, but teaches to get gain. The trick is, as we talked about belief, it's hard enough to nail down what you actually know, as an individual, it is impossible to say with any certainty what somebody else truly believes, apart from measuring their actions against what they say. It's very complicated.

Katie Dooley  10:41

But last week, we're talking about the CES Letter. I was definitely reading it part of me was like, how many of the elders in the church really believe and how many of there are in for gain? Or like at what point or maybe they believe to a point and now they have all the information because they have access to it all. And do they still believe? Or do they not believe but they're in a position of power? So they stay? And I wonder that for the Catholic Church, too, it was just, you know, CES Letter was top of mind last week.

Preston Meyer  11:13

I think it's a perfectly valid question, a question that you're not likely to get a solid? ,

Katie Dooley  11:17

No, of course not. Because they would never. they would, they would never, I wouldn't say they never be truthful. But if they were there just for power, they would, they wouldn't be truthful, right? If they truly believed that everyone's gonna tell you they believe. So you can't weed that out. 

Preston Meyer  11:33

The only thing you have to go on is measuring their actions against their words.

Katie Dooley  11:37

One definition I saw of a cult is a group that you're scared to leave. And I actually liked that definition.

Preston Meyer  11:44

It's pretty strong. I like it.

Katie Dooley  11:46

Because some cults aren't religious based. I would say when you get to the act of sort of this fervent level of belief, obviously it is. It has become religion religious, but they don't start that way. The most contemporary and still very newsworthy example is NXIVM, which is, it was a self help, premise. Nothing religious about it. They do do have a charismatic leader, but people weren't joining to get some divine revelation. They were joining for improvement and self growth and then it got really weird.

Preston Meyer  12:23

Absolutely. A friend of ours. I was talking to him earlier this week. And we were ribbing him a little bit that a self help group that he belongs to sounds a little bit culty. It's not Amway. It's not a marketing thing, though. Multilevel marketing can get very culty. Yeah. The one who wants to sound like it's only up and up to me, not that I'm jumping to join it. But he assured us that, yeah, they'd love to have you stay, but nobody is really pressured to stay. And it helps that there is no nothing outside themselves that they need to believe in, which I think is actually really nice. But that people are free to keep taking more and more courses or leave at any time. And that's definitely like you said, the fear of leaving, is how you can pretty reliably put that line of where is it a cult? How do people get involved in cults? Usually through friends.

Katie Dooley  13:36

I meant more from an epistemological sense, but sure, our friends are dicks. Don't listen to your friends. From a thought belief place. Especially, you know, Jim Jones literally had hundreds of people kill themselves. Or I mean, more accurately, I mean, yes, they drank it was murder. Murdered hundreds of people. How do we go from this as a nice church to go to, to drinking poison Flavor-Aid?

Preston Meyer  14:09

Well, either at the beginning of it, somebody's keeping secret, their nefarious plot, or they go crazy partway through this path. And so the trick is, how did you get to be part of this group that went insane? Usually it starts with being told things that you already believe. And that's I would say people are a lot more familiar with the idea of political cults today. Like, say the three percenters, the 3% Militia that's down in the States. Things like that, where they'll tell you things that don't sound crazy. They sound like things that you already believe or are immediately adjacent to something you believe so they're totally digestible and acceptable. And you usually stew in that pot for a little while, with new things being added every now and then that are adjacent to what you already believe. So they're acceptable and digestible. And over time, eventually, you've come to a place where you are believing something that you weren't believing before at all, and is probably at variance with that with what you used to believe. And if you had the opportunity to see yourself from without, you would definitely notice that you have joined a cult.

Katie Dooley  15:43

A couple of things that are common, that's not the word I want to look for are the same... common for people who end up in cults, and if you watch any sort of documentaries, YouTube videos, read any books on people who join cults. They're pretty normal people, they are doctors and teachers and lawyers and regular people in the community. Cults often target people when they're vulnerable. And cults actually prefer mentally healthy people in a vulnerable moment of their lives, as opposed to people who are mentally unhealthy, because people are mentally unhealthy are unstable. Whereas if you get someone who's typically mentally healthy, and is going through some sort of crisis, maybe they've lost their job or their girlfriend broke up with them, or, you know, this blip on the radar, that's the perfect point to have someone join a cult.

Preston Meyer  16:51

Most religions that are evangelical will also play along those lines as well. If you're looking for people to join at a point where they're at a crossroads is the time to do it. It's not just the danger religion.

Katie Dooley  17:06

I know, I want to say something that you might also want off the record. But you know how we got our Book of Mormon? There is all, so as Preston was saying, they don't give you all the details when you join, they make it sound awesome and light and fluffy. And you're at a point in your life where you want to be in a community or I think it's a desire for everyone to want to be part of something bigger than themselves. That's why I like theater so much not that I do anything with theater, but that's why I like going to the theater.

Preston Meyer  17:38

We have a drive in ourselves naturally that we need to belong to a group and the antisocial among us that thinks that they're the exception, typically just flocked to a different way of organizing. And very few people actually are truly happy and flourish when they're alone. 

Katie Dooley  18:02

Yep. As we know, from this pandemic.bAnother tactic is love bombing. It is an abusive relationship tactic if you are being loved bombed.

Preston Meyer  18:16

How do you know if you're being loved bombed? 

Katie Dooley  18:19

I think it probably be really hard to know if you're being loved bombed to be completely honest, because it's you at a vulnerable state. And it is the act of showing excessive amounts of affection and attention in a way to influence or manipulate behavior. So I think, I mean, that's not helpful if you're listening. But just knowing love bombing is a practice. If you're unsure, talk to someone you trust, or a therapist, because it is abuse to shower someone with love with the plans to manipulate them. But that's, again, you're find someone at a vulnerable state you love on them hard and they're more likely to do what you want them to do.

Preston Meyer  19:13

It's, like I mentioned before, it's almost impossible to know what it is somebody else's head. But sometimes you can catch little clues on when somebody is deliberately showering you with love, and then deliberately withholding it and usually love bombing is doing both of those. It's cyclical doing both of those things. And it's a good way.... Good is the wrong word. It's a reliable and proven method of gaining people, gaining control of people.

Katie Dooley  19:51

I have two other points for reasons people join/stay in cults. I guess I'll start with the this one is at some point after you're kind of in, there is the mob mentality hive mind social pressure piece. And I think that's how you can add pieces that, like you're talking about these adjacent pieces that maybe you didn't believe it, but now it's being introduced to you. And I think the social pressure makes it easier to accept or at least you less likely to speak out. I kind of liken it to your first drink at a high school party. Right? Everyone else is drinking, they're fine. They're saying, come on, do it. You kind of go, okay. What's it? Even if you're uncomfortable, you know, chances are...

Preston Meyer  20:43

Peer pressure is the weirdest thing. That outside of the moment, most people seem to believe that. I would recognize peer pressure. And I'll say no, when I want to say no. And then when you're in the moment, it's a lot more of a "oh, I wasn't prepared for this." Usually, it's usually a self protection thing I will protect myself from what will be emotional harm by just doing what everyone expects.

Katie Dooley  21:15

It's interesting that being ostracized by a group is it's probably like wired into our brains. It's totally wired into our brains is more painful to us than actually putting ourselves in harm's way.

Preston Meyer  21:28

Yeah, even if you're not fully committed to the group, even if you already see problems with the group. Being ostracized from that group still hurts. It's such a weird thing.

Katie Dooley  21:40

Yeah, it takes a long time to not give a fuck. I've done it a few times in my life, but it's never fun. And last, but not least, I think this one isn't actually talked about a lot. I didn't actually find any notes on it. But I was thinking about it while I was making the notes, is the sunk cost fallacy. This is actually an economic

Preston Meyer  22:01

Gambling kind of thing. The Slot Machine has to pay out because I've been dumping quarters into it for days, 

Katie Dooley  22:07

You learned about it in economics 101, you know, a sunk cost is like, I don't know, I paid for some advertising and didn't work. Well, It's a sunk cost. Now you you move on, or you cut your losses and move on instead of try to make your advertising work. You go okay, it didn't work and move on. The problem with the sunk cost fallacy is, again, I think we're kind of wired to believe that

Preston Meyer  22:35

somebody's going to notice how much effort I've put into this work.

Katie Dooley  22:38

Yeah, it's like, at some point, it has to work, right? Because so maybe just a little bit more money or a little bit more time or whatever, and I'll get my returns.

Preston Meyer  22:48

Come on podcast, please work out.

Katie Dooley  22:49

Right? Maybe just one more episode, one more episode. And we'll make it big. And you'll leave a five star review on Apple. But that's exactly it. And it's hard for people to cut those ties and go, Okay, well, this didn't work and I've sunk in 10s of 1000s of dollars without getting a return. So that's an important thing to keep in mind, as well. Is it a sunk cost, evaluate that lots of things in life could be a sunk cost. So if you're concerned about leaving anything, because of the time you put in, if it's not working for you get rid of it.

Preston Meyer  23:37

Yeah, never evaluate your efforts looking backwards. When trying to decide whether or not you need to move forward.

Katie Dooley  23:52

This is I mean, this whole

Preston Meyer  23:55

You need to look at the rewards, not your efforts.

Katie Dooley  23:57

Yes and I think a really good example, this is kind of off topic, but a good example is marriage, right? People go well, I've been with him for 20 years. Well, you're unhappy. So what is what is 20 years matter?

Preston Meyer  24:10

Right? 

Katie Dooley  24:11

You still got 20 years left easily? Or more probably. I'm like doing the math on how old you have to be if you're married. Yeah, if you're married at 25, you'd be 45. You got forty years left. So like, don't, don't be miserable. Because you sunk 20 years into it. Or if jobs are another big one. So that's a good fair, trying to wrap your head around sunk cost. Those are two good examples. So that's why people join and stay in cults.

Preston Meyer  24:45

It's kind of a bummer to have to think about all these negatives. There's not a whole lot of positivity in this episode. We'll try and keep it light but we're going to be dealing with some serious issues here.

Katie Dooley  24:58

Yeah, cults are in the case that we're mostly talking about today as in the negative, dangerous cults.

Preston Meyer  25:06

So yeah, cults are, obviously a problem. Anything that hurts you is a problem. And that's the big thing that is visible about cults is that they hurt people. The trick is finding out that they're cults before they hurt people.

Katie Dooley  25:26

Which is hard because the members aren't going to talk to outsiders. I think it's just regular cult education like this. On knowing when you're vulnerable, and some of these red flags we're later in the episode, getting into red flags, if you think someone you love is in a cult. But it's really as individuals being educated. Because you're right, nobody can know what's going on in your head. You might not share that you're feeling vulnerable. And you might not share that you've joined this new group of friends that

Preston Meyer  25:59

It's weird how many people...

Katie Dooley  26:01

Slaughter goats every Thursday night.

Preston Meyer  26:04

There's not a whole lot of bloodshed, sacrifice cult around, but there's still some, but not a lot. It's weird how many people keep a secret that they've joined a new group of friends. It's like some people do recognize that there's something weird about this group, but they're willing to bite the bullet and keep moving forward with it.

Katie Dooley  26:33

I don't know. I don't talk about like, I don't talk about my friends to my other friends. You know, I have like chunks of friends. And I don't talk about either my other groups of friends.

Preston Meyer  26:46

But when something big happens in your life, we talk about it and a change in your religious life. I mean, I understand, like, why a lot of people don't share their changes in their religious life with everybody they know. But friends, if they're close will usually mention this sort of thing. But I guess, I guess follow through this idea. If people are typically recruiting for cults from people who are in really hard positions in their life, maybe more preyed upon people, or those who wouldn't have others to tell? That might be part of it. 

Katie Dooley  27:34

Okay, look at us in our self discovery. I have a note in the notes, there's a bullet point in the notes of cults that aren't harmful. As I mentioned, all religions start as cults, all offshoots of major religions, all major religions start as cults every denomination of Christianity started as a cult. And we don't look at Church of England as a cult of Henry the Eighth anymore, we just look at it as another denomination. And I think that's because it was, it was allowed to establish itself, they didn't have...

Preston Meyer  28:26

Allowed to establish itself. It was founded by the king. Not that it's the worst example. It's just, you have a very powerful charismatic leader.

Katie Dooley  28:36

That's true. I mean, we can pick on Hutterites or something like that, but or Anabaptist and Quakers. They were allowed to establish themselves. And I mean, Church of England is a good example, because their beliefs weren't too too crazy minus divorce, which is really, we all know, that was the only reason Church of England was eveloped and where am I going with this? So we look at something like Christianity, which was a cult of Judaism and obviously, in the first century, they were persecuted, but eventually they took root and now a very acceptable religion.

Preston Meyer  29:13

It's the standard of North.... well, all of America not just North. South America is very Catholic.

Katie Dooley  29:21

So I just wonder if sometimes in the in the world we live in with media and social media have we created dangerous cults when there was no dangerous cult to begin with? It was just an offshoot.

Preston Meyer  29:38

Oh, for sure. There's, as we'll talk about later, there's a really strong us versus them thing that's really thrust upon you in most cults. It's not absent from most Western religions.

Katie Dooley  29:53

So, I'm going to touch on this. All of my I'm gonna... Disclaimer: All of my research is literally from the Netflix documentary. I did a little bit of supplementary reading for this episode and will, I'm sure we'll do a full episode but the Rajneesheemovement is a group of sannyasins which is a group of Hindus. And they originated in India, with their founder

Preston Meyer  30:25

Rajneesh

Katie Dooley  30:26

Rajneesh. I was gonna find his first name, but I didn't write it down. Bhagwan Rajneesh, Bhagwan is the title, just like Christ as a title.

Preston Meyer  30:38

It's interesting to me that this sannyasin group is the same group that Siddhartha Gautama the Buddha came from.

Katie Dooley  30:45

Absolutely, yeah. And they had a big sect in India. And they wanted to start communal living, and they had people from all over the world coming to India for these for this group. And so they bought acres of land in Oregon, in the United States, outside of a small town called Antelope. Now, for literally, I think it's like a six episode documentary, literally the first four episodes and I'm like, "they're not doing anything wrong." There. It's the people in Antelope who are going to make this worse.

Preston Meyer  31:19

White people suck.  So the Rajneeshees, they were all red and orange, they're very like, then, obviously, they had like, South Asian people, but also white people, but very distinct looking, just because they all wore the same thing. And they were, like I said, trying to build a self sustaining commune outside of this small town, and like, I mean, small town, like, less than 100 people, small town, and they didn't like it. And the Rajneeshee started buying homes in the town so that they could get an electoral vote to lessen some of the pressures on them from the community. And they interviewed these people. And they're like, oh, they started buying the houses and like "you were selling the houses!!" Why are you mad at them? Someone has to sell a house for someone to be able to buy a house. And when you're selling a house, you have the option to not sell it to somebody who's offering to buy. That's true of all sales, pretty much. So I mean, digital age, there's a lot less of opportunity to see who is buying, but you still have the option.

Katie Dooley  32:31

Yeah, so it's just really like, it's the first four episodes, it really feels like these people are just scared of other and making it really hard on them. And I honestly think that if they had just left well enough alone, it wouldn't have escalated the way it did. I'm sure it would have ended at some point just because people get disillusioned. You're living in a commune in the 90s in Oregon, I'm sure when smartphones hit people would have you know, left.

Preston Meyer  33:02

Maybe it depends on how much they value what they have in their community. If everything you think you need is there, I mean, do you even need a smartphone?

Katie Dooley  33:12

Yes to listen to this podcast.

Preston Meyer  33:14

This podcast through your browser on your laptop can't you? See you don't need a smartphone.

Katie Dooley  33:27

Anyway, long story short. Both the townspeople and the Rajneeshee in the commune started arming themselves. And it was there was a political race to get votes and it escalated into the largest poisoning in American history. So it absolutely did become a violent, scary cult, but we think of but I encourage you to go watch the first few episodes and really look at it. Is this a scary group of people? Or is this just someone trying to start a new way of life for themselves?

Preston Meyer  34:00

What's the name of the show? 

Katie Dooley  34:01

Wild Wild country. Thank you. I haven't said it yet. Wild Wild country I don't actually know if it's still on Netflix, but it was really good. Highly recommend it. 

Preston Meyer  34:10

It's probably still on Netflix. Netflix does a lot of their own documentary thing.

Katie Dooley  34:14

Yes, it's a Netflix documentary. Also the organization around the Rajneeshee and this is, again from the 90s in Oregon, Osho International is still in existence today. Osho O-S-H-O.com So you can still like I said they're still around today not the commune obviously because that ended badly but the ideal ideologies of the Bhagwan are alive and well. 

Preston Meyer  34:41

Yeah, they're still popular in the United States and Australia and all over Europe. Yeah. Kinda kind of weird. That what used to be labeled very publicly as this cult that makes people uncomfortable is now another I want to say world religion. But I mean, we've discussed this I don't like the label to begin with, but it is all over the world. So it's not huge. It's, it's around.

Katie Dooley  35:11

I was at a Tony Robbins conference and I'm pretty sure was like the only one in the entire room that was like, but he mentioned doing like meeting with Bhagwan and I was like !!!

Preston Meyer  35:26

Tony Robbins, super charismatic guy, but as far as I can tell, people aren't afraid to leave him. There's a sunk costs thing that also gets in people's head too.

Katie Dooley  35:39

I think. You know Tony Robbins is a good guy because he could have a cult like that, and he hasn't done it yet. So respect, right. 'Cause he could, like tomorrow, he could be like, we're flying to Guyana and I got a drink for you.

Preston Meyer  35:55

He's only a stone's throw away from NXIVM. But he doesn't throw that stone. 

Katie Dooley  36:01

No, he has not branded anyone yet or sold anyone into sex trafficking. So good guy, Tony Robbins. Yeah. I feel like I'm gonna have to post a good guy Tony Robbins meme in the disclaimer. I'll probably make it but it's fine. Preston, I'm gonna hand it over to you for a little bit with, of course, my charming interjections about the BITE model. I love the BITE model. I'm so excited. It's kind of dumb that I'm excited about it. But the BITE model is basically how you tell if something's a cult. And Preston's gonna break it down for us. Wicca wicca

Preston Meyer  36:36

Yeah, it's it's actually a really well thought out way to evaluate religions or even non-religious groups, like even Bhawans cult group. He kind of sold it as a religious, less religion. Which I mean, that's such a nonsense phrase, that yeah, it was a parareligious group basically born out of that sannyasin tradition that was really digestible in a way that did appeal to people that were outside of the Hindu tradition, which is kind of nifty. But yeah, back into this BITE model. It's, and so B-I-T -E stands for behavior control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. So we're going to look at these different items and look at how they affect people. I guess 

Katie Dooley  37:35

I will say if you're interested, that is quite extensive. we've summarized it.

Preston Meyer  37:41

Yeah, I've managed to crunch this down into small enough bites that

Katie Dooley  37:47

Haha bites, I get it, you did it. 

Preston Meyer  37:51

Alright, so the first is behavior control. The big summary of this whole idea is that cults discourage individualism with rigid rules. So they regulate associations, they tell you, who you can hang out with, and sometimes force you to be isolated. They also regulate your clothing, your hairstyles, your diet, up into things like perpetual hunger or long term fasting, it's a little bit more intense than just saying, don't eat pork. It's like straight up, you don't get to eat for a while, which is a huge problem. They'll also regulate your sleep, they'll make you sleep weird hours, sometimes sometimes they'll straight up deprive you from sleep, just to regulate your behavior, which is torture.

Katie Dooley  38:43

Well, and also why regulating sleep in particular, makes you more suggestible to things. For sure or so tired that you actually can't think straight, right? We've all been that tired, unfortunately. So yeah, regulating sleep is a huge red flag

Preston Meyer  39:02

Big power move. They'll also, typically restrict your leisure and entertainment. Which sounds not too crazy, like most churches don't want you going to strip clubs or watching pornography, right? Or even sometimes the like, don't watch PG 13 movies. Definitely don't watch rated-R movies.

Katie Dooley  39:24

Don't read Harry Potter. It's the devil.

Preston Meyer  39:27

Yeah. So they'll go typically beyond that to the point where they actually control what you have opportunities to receive as entertainment material, and they will restrict your leisure time. Which that kind of control is where it gets a little bit scary, I think.

Katie Dooley  39:47

Yes and I... This is big in groups that either are communal, where you're supposed to work for the group or request a lot of volunteer hours from you. And it's kind of the same thing as the sleep thing where you're too busy to just stop and think about what's going on.

Preston Meyer  40:07

Yeah, there's a lot of that, in fact, the too busy to think about what's going on kind of shows up in all four of these themes,

Katie Dooley  40:16

And also an important one because it goes beyond religious cults, right? Something like NXIVM or the big one I can. I can't think of any others right now. 

Preston Meyer  40:27

It's a pretty good example of a recent not quite religious cult, though. Yeah. So it's pretty fine that it keeps coming to mind.

Katie Dooley  40:33

Okay, I'll just keep going with NXIVM then. Again, we're you're just too busy to be like, Oh, I was branded with my iron this week. Ouch!

Preston Meyer  40:42

Maybe I should run away. Oh, man,

Katie Dooley  40:43

No, I got this shit to do.

Preston Meyer  40:47

Alright, another part of behavioral control that you'll see in a lot of cults is financial exploitation, where people will ask you for literally all of the money you have, usually incrementally, but they will make you poor, to make the group or the leader of the group exclusively, very wealthy. But there's also more than just financial exploitation, there's also building financial dependence, which is why they don't just recruit the rich, they'll also recruit anybody who they can force into a position where they rely on the group for their financial needs, which of course is a problem.

Katie Dooley  41:30

I think they would actually have a harder time. And I don't know what statistics are, but actually getting very wealthy people in to a cult, because very wealthy people tend to have financial planners. And at some point, your financial planner would go. Mine would, holla, Ron!

Preston Meyer  41:50

But see a lot of these people who would have financial planners, if they're halfway into a cult, and they're pretty committed already. There, a lot of the time, they're happier to leave their financial planner behind then leave the group. So a financial planner can be very helpful, but only if you actually value their advice, which is true in literally every scenario. And just generally, cults will typically manipulate you financially, one way or the other, they're gonna manipulate you,

Katie Dooley  42:33

Can I have five bucks,

Preston Meyer  42:34

If I had five bucks,

Katie Dooley  42:37

You would?

Preston Meyer  42:39

I would be willing to give you five bucks. Though I suspect that since you are more regularly employed than that you don't need the five bucks that I don't have as bad as I do. 

Katie Dooley  42:53

I'll look after you if you give me five bucks. 

Preston Meyer  42:56

You know what, at this point in my life, you got a deal

Katie Dooley  43:00

Oh it's starting guys, I'm so proud.

Preston Meyer  43:07

We'll see where this goes. Also, something that is almost universally used in the danger cult. As far as behavior control, is the idea of rewards and punishments to modify behavior. The carrot versus the stick. Both get used an awful lot. It's never just the carrot, but it's never just the stick. There's an awful lot of torture, you can be beaten, you can be burned, branded, or tattooed. Cutting is not outside the realm of what is common, and sometimes rape. Weirdly enough, there's enough cults that have been around where people have been forced to rape other people. Which is the kind of thing where you should know at this point that you need to leave this group. And an awful lot of people will stay with the group beyond that point. Not cool. You are also compelled to torture other people in other ways as well. And sometimes as we have seen in other handful of documentaries about say Scientology, you can be compelled to murder somebody

Katie Dooley  44:29

Whose been murdered in Scientology?

Preston Meyer  44:32

Oh, there's a long list.

Katie Dooley  44:33

Oh actually do know when I can't remember her name. But I do know one case in particular that you're talking about. You know, were what's that term for us now? For people who are enemies of Scientology?

Preston Meyer  44:49

I don't remember but we're them now. Yeah, we are. We have spoken out against Scientology.

Katie Dooley  44:57

I gonna spend the rest of the episode thinking about it.

Preston Meyer  45:00

There's yeah, there's a word oh well. 

Katie Dooley  45:03

Move onto I and I'll Google it. 

Preston Meyer  45:05

All right. Another big control move in cults is information control. Moving on to that second letter of our BITE. So information control is about discouraging criticism, typically with misinformation, and also preventing other important information from reaching the adherents. Did you find your word? 

Katie Dooley  45:30

I did. We're suppressive persons now.

Preston Meyer  45:33

I'm okay with that. So information control, usually, oh, I'm not gonna say usually, pretty much always, I'm not aware of a situation where one of these dangerous cults doesn't use deception, where information is deliberately withheld or distorted, to render the collective group more acceptable to the individual. This will include systematic lying, and use of non-cult sources out of context, or outright misquoting people to make the group seem better than they really are. Usually, that will limit your access to outside information. Like don't use the internet, it's full of lies.

Katie Dooley  46:22

Scientologists aren't allowed to Google Scientology.

Preston Meyer  46:26

That doesn't surprise me at all. So you need to limit people's access to information that would make them at all question the group or their place in it. You need to keep members too busy to think or access information as well. So like I said, that theme is going to carry through there it is. Also, there's a strong tendency to encourage spying and have people report on each other when they see deviant behavior, or even questions that seem a little too invasive. 

Katie Dooley  47:02

It's very effective. Because once you know, there's this tattletale system in place like if you're told to tattle on someone, you know that someone could tattle on you. So, like, you might never actually tell on someone but it...

Preston Meyer  47:16

You know, somebody will if you 

Katie Dooley  47:17

Yeah, so just like, there's like a word I'm trying to think it just like automatically keeps people in line without actually necessarily having to do anything. Just to know that it's a possibility, keeps people in line.

Preston Meyer  47:31

Fear is the number one tool of cult leaders. And this is where it's pretty visible, I think. Because of course, people want to avoid torture, which is a perfectly

Katie Dooley  47:45

Unless you're a what is sadist? masochist? I get them backwards all the time.

Preston Meyer  47:53

Also, part of this whole reporting on each other, there's also the unethical use of confession. Like if you go to confess to your pastor or priest or whatever, that could be problematic, but usually isn't the in the bigger churches that typically are led by believers as opposed to how I said most cults are led by people who don't actually believe what they're teaching in a lot of cases. So these cases of unethical use of confession, will typically disrupt or outright dissolve your identity boundaries, which can be terrifying to somebody who is able to see what's going on. There's also commonly used tools of memory manipulation, which is gas lightning. I mean, yeah, that's a connected thing for sure. Making somebody question what they think they know is sometimes problematic. If what they think

Katie Dooley  49:02

I think it's questioning people's experiences, right. That's the problem. You know, saying, having a healthy debate about religion or politics, I don't think is a problem but saying no, that wasn't your experience is a huge problem.

Preston Meyer  49:14

Absolutely. And the last point I have here for unethical use of confession is withholding forgiveness. For those in the Christian tradition, it's typically understood that confession is connected to forgiveness that you can receive forgiveness through confession. There may or may not be extra steps involved, depending on what you've done. But outright withholding forgiveness after confession is a problem. Moving on to the third part of our bite model, T, go for it. What do you got?

Katie Dooley  49:55

I just want to say T like a cheerleader. People can't see me but making a T like a cheerleader.

Preston Meyer  50:02

Well done.

Katie Dooley  50:05

You did all the research you really I'll just chime in with my thoughts.

Preston Meyer  50:08

Honestly, I wasn't even aware of the BITE model until you brought it up to me. 

Katie Dooley  50:11

I know but you still did all the research. 

Preston Meyer  50:14

I did dig deeply into it to understand it. I don't know why that was so hard to say.

Katie Dooley  50:21

You almost said, I did dick deeply. And I was a little concerned.

Preston Meyer  50:25

Yeah, that's not your business. All right. The third thing is thought control. So you can ensure continued obedience by eliminating the individual, you do this by messing with their power to think. And so this is usually seen when cults require members to adopt doctrine as truth, which, realistically, almost every group, political, religious, or theatrical, there's things that you should believe to be an effective part of the community. 

Katie Dooley  51:04

Yeah, even any mainstream Christian group is not down if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Right. Like that's, that's cost of entry.

Preston Meyer  51:14

Yeah. But if you are required to believe that everything that is said must be true. With the fear of punishment, if you don't, you got serious problems. And usually, these include a really strict us versus them good, good versus evil, everything is black or white, that cults don't typically, like playing around with allowing you to believe that there's a gray zone, you're either with the group or you're against the group, which I mean, is pretty much true of the dangerous groups anyway

Katie Dooley  51:53

Cults or otherwise, yes. And as we know, it's a spectrum. Everything like... Did I make a clear point?

Preston Meyer  52:04

I think you did. Everything is a spectrum, there is gray, it's okay. 

Katie Dooley  52:08

I was like, Did you think I was referring to like cults on a spectrum or belief, I was talking about belief on a spectrum.

Preston Meyer  52:14

All the things exist on a spectrum.

Katie Dooley  52:18

I've just made this weird.

Preston Meyer  52:25

Very often, cults will require their members to take on a new name and identity. I knew a lady when I was living in New Jersey. Her name was Marjorie, she was an awesome lady, she fed us all the time. Super funny, jolly lady had a lot of fun hanging out with her. And when she was hanging out with Malcolm X, she lost her last name, she became Marjorie Number X, because the first person in the group gets to be X. And the second person with that same first name would be 2x. And then 3X. It's kind of weird. And I learned that from her because she was an interesting lady who was willing to share her experiences. Not that Malcolm X would be classified as a dangerous cult leader, by all standards, but by some absolutely was and he definitely employed this method of giving people new names and adjusting their identities. Another common factor is hypnosis, to help you alter your mental states, or also undermine critical thought, kind of a huge problem there. Even worse, is the idea of causing age regression deliberately. That's a really effective way to make people rely on you if you put them in the state of mind of a six year old, they have to look up to you as the provider. Huge problem. 

Katie Dooley  54:01

Yeah, that's terrifying.

Preston Meyer  54:03

Yeah, it's, it's very scary. And also, very often, they'll will use hypnosis to alter your memories or create entirely new ones.

Katie Dooley  54:15

I also I don't know if you have this on here. But drugs use as well.

Preston Meyer  54:21

Don't have that on the list. But drugs are very useful tools in this hypnosis program. Because usually, drugs on their own, won't do the things but if you combine it with hypnosis, you're gonna get a lot of work done.

Katie Dooley  54:39

Yeah. If you could put people in states of paranoia or whatever, with drugs. Yeah.

Preston Meyer  54:43

Oh, yeah. Especially if you think if you can get people to think that everyone is out to get them outside of the group, and really make them feel safe in the group. You've got a believer for life, probably. Another thing that is commonly used to control thought, is helping people to control their own thoughts, with techniques that help them to rationalize where they're at, and stop all intrusive thoughts from coming at them before they really can take root. This will usually include chanting, or repetitive prayers. Meditating can be effective, but it's... if you've ever tried to sit down for five minutes and not think at all it's really hard to do today. And that does actually allow intrusive thoughts to come unless you've gotten really good at meditating in a way that you are able to let those intrusive thoughts go, rather than hold on to them when they come.

Katie Dooley  55:54

I think if you're that mindful, you wouldn't be in a cult. But I don't know. You're out there. And you're that mindful and you're in a cult, can you email me?

Preston Meyer  56:04

Tell us how that worked out. Yeah, meditating is a weird thing to be on this list. But it is on the list that the practice of forcing thoughts out of your mind, which most people think of when they think of meditation is the kind of meditation that is espoused by these cults.

Katie Dooley  56:23

I think some of it is like, probably run through this idea that God can hear your thoughts. So if you have any doubts better get out. Because I mean, obviously, in the context of religious cults are, that the leader can hear your thoughts or whatever. And if they can hear that you have doubts, and you can be the next one getting beaten.

Preston Meyer  56:45

Yeah, so you have to suppress those thoughts. Another thing that comes up a lot is speaking in tongues, which is a thing that you'll see an awful lot in, especially evangelical and Pentecostal churches, that... they serve a different purpose. They typically are outward signs, and you see them in churches. But in cults, it's more of a business of putting nonsense in your head and making you spout nonsense. Because when your mouth is engaged, typically your brain isn't engaged in something different. So kind of helpful, I wouldn't classify it as one of the more powerful tools, but it is a tool that is used because it is effective. And of course, singing, humming a nice way to keep the group unified, and thinking about what their mouth is engaged in. Next on the list, we have the idea that you just have to reject critical thinking, which, basically, outright, I have to implore everybody to never do.

Katie Dooley  57:58

Always think critically!

Preston Meyer  58:02

Just... you can avoid a lot of problems by thinking critically. This includes actually analyzing things rationally, absolutely prevented as much as possible by these groups. And they will outright forbid criticism, you don't get to criticize the leader, it's not your place. And you should stop thinking about things like that, or you're gonna get yourself in trouble. 

Katie Dooley  58:31

I wouldn't do well in a cult.

Preston Meyer  58:33

That's a good thing.

Katie Dooley  58:35

Unless I was the leader of one!

Preston Meyer  58:38

We'll see how that works. But yeah, the number one thing I need to stop clapping my hands. The number one thing is that you have to label all thought that is outside of what is acceptable as unacceptable. That's a that's an annoying tautology. Let's try that again. Every other thought, not expressly given to you by the collective or the leader is unacceptable.

Katie Dooley  59:16

Unacceptable. I was trying to say at the same time because I knew what you were gonna say

Preston Meyer  59:25

Very nice. And the fourth letter and this BITE.

Katie Dooley  59:29

E!

Preston Meyer  59:31

Emotion control, that you can establish dependence by manipulating emotions. So the idea that somebody can mess with your emotions, a little bit scary. And people do it on the regular.

Katie Dooley  59:46

I think you have to be incredibly self aware to not have people mess with your emotions, even just as a regular human being. But yeah, so I think this one's probably a very effective tool.

Preston Meyer  59:58

Absolutely. Usually you'll see the idea that this group has a family. And they'll play that up really hard. Because when you think of family, hopefully you're thinking of positive emotions, and that you can establish long lasting positive connections with people. And that's exactly what they want to have happen in these cults.

Katie Dooley  1:00:23

Also important if you didn't come from a good family, because we all have that idea of family drilled into us. Right? So it works both ways. Like if you had a great family, then this is just another family. If you didn't have a good family, then this is the one for you!

Preston Meyer  1:00:35

Yeah, it's it's a messed up way to play around with people. But it works. It's probably the strongest tool in their belt, is the idea that you can depend on them like a family. And so part of this emotional control that you'll see is that some emotions are outright banned as evil or selfish, and that people's emotions should be blocked, especially homesickness and doubt. The idea that your emotions can be evil, and selfish and need to be suppressed, by all means, is something that I think is really not cool. I'm really uncomfortable with.

Katie Dooley  1:00:37

It's really unhealthy. There's no such thing as bad emotion.

Preston Meyer  1:01:33

Like even rage. Anger has its place. There's, obviously appropriate uses of your emotions, and inappropriate uses, conversely, but to say, an emotion is outright evil or selfish, is hugely problematic.

Katie Dooley  1:01:57

I think a lot of mental health problems happen because we don't let ourselves feel the full spectrum of emotion. 

Preston Meyer  1:02:02

I think you're probably right. 

Katie Dooley  1:02:02

So this is really bad advice.

Preston Meyer  1:02:Right? Often, though, these cults will make members feel like problems are their own fault, rather than the fault of the leader or the group, even if they are, in fact, completely constructed problems outside of your own control. And that's a really awful way to try and control somebody. They'll also typically promote feelings of shame, or guilt or unworthiness, and especially fear, to make you feel bad. So that when they make you feel good, there's a lot more weight on that. Especially the fear that they would give you of independent thought, fear of the world, fear of enemies, fear of damnation is fairly common. And fear of group disapproval. Yeah, you want to be accepted by the group that you're trying to belong to. And since a person in a cult doesn't recognize the dangers of belonging to that group, that disapproval is hugely problematic. And so that fear is a great controlling tool. They will also often I mentioned that there's the the misuse of confession, public confession of sins is pretty much never appropriate, I think. But it's often used by cults to control people, that if you do something bad, you'll have to say in front of everybody, don't do it.

Katie Dooley  1:03:52
I don't like that.

Preston Meyer  1:03:53
Right? So emotional manipulation can also be those orchestrated highs and lows, that love bombing that you had mentioned earlier, contrasted with harsh condemnation. But also shunning friends who leave, controlling the way you feel about people that you were told where your family once they've left the group, you can never talk to them again. They're awful, they're the enemy. That's not, that's not okay.

Katie Dooley  1:04:22
No, you can't tell me who to love.

Preston Meyer  1:04:29
There's also the idea that you can generate fear of what life would be outside the group. Now that you've been here. How could you ever survive outside again?

Katie Dooley  1:04:42
Well, that actually is a real problem. There's people who help people transition out of cults so yeah, that actually, of the threats they make that one is actually very real threat.

Preston Meyer  1:04:53
For sure. And it's deliberately constructed, which is a problem. They do deliberately make you fear that which probably makes the transition harder. And the idea that you have to be afraid of all outsiders because they're either weak and will drag you down, or they're outright evil and will tear you up. That's a really harmful way to see the world. And this will also include threats of harm to ex-members, that they will be physically punished, just because they've left. That fear of leaving is, like I said, one of the big problems. Yeah, and that's, that's the BITE model.

Katie Dooley  1:05:49
Cool. I have some follow up questions/ thoughts that I wanted to discuss. I think I don't know how to word this. I think that, especially when you look at the full, BITE model, which I encourage you to do.

Preston Meyer  1:06:08
So the BITE Model is constructed by Steven Hassan. And it's his BITE Model of Authoritarian Control is actually what it is. But authoritarian control is how you lead a cult. So we've made that application here. And you can find it in greater detail on freedomofmind.com.

Katie Dooley  1:06:30
Cool, thanks, Preston. I just I'm trying to think of the best way word this so basically, like I said, especially when you look at the full BITE model. There are points on the bite model that apply to major religions.

Preston Meyer  1:06:42
Oh, for sure. We've got things on here that I would call orange buttons and red buttons. 

Katie Dooley  1:06:50
And I think there's a quantity of buttons. 

Preston Meyer  1:06:52
Yes, absolutely. If you check off 90% of these boxes, you're in a bad spot. But if you only check off two of these things, and they're the things that I would label is low risk, as opposed to the higher risk things that 

Katie Dooley  1:07:08
I guess this is part of the critical thinking is that if you're a member of any religious organization, or charismatic group, with a leader to evaluate the BITE model for yourself, can something check the boxes and not be dangerous? Or I guess, what's the tipping point for a cult you know what I mean? Like, if I am personally getting something out of it does it matter that it ticks or when does it matter that it takes the boxes?

Preston Meyer  1:07:39
Well see if you're getting something out of it. And you are able to recognize that it takes off 90% of what I'll call the red button boxes. What is your position in his group? 

Katie Dooley  1:07:51
Well, we're having this conversation the other day, when we're writing these notes, it's like Tom Cruise and Scientology. Either he hasn't looked at it critically, which is a possibility. Or he has looked at it critically, but either one of two things. One, they have so much on him, which is a very real possibility and then it's dangerous for him. Or two, he has so much power, he doesn't care that it ticks all these boxes.

Preston Meyer  1:08:18
Right? It's a little scary.

Katie Dooley  1:08:23
Or and I think of other main-er stream religions that have huge numbers of congregants, followers, believers, that ticks a lot of these boxes.

Preston Meyer  1:08:38
And you'll have groups that the larger group might not tick some of these boxes, but your subgroup does. And like it could be your family that puts these pressures on you that the church doesn't at all. Got all kinds of tiered spectrum wise, probably.

Katie Dooley  1:08:58
I don't know how much you want to name names or name churches. I mean, we have no problem being contentious but like, okay, the one I'm thinking of is Jehovah Witness, right where they have millions of members worldwide, but they tick a lot of these boxes. 

Preston Meyer  1:09:15
They really do. 

Katie Dooley  1:09:17
And I think if you asked the average person on the street, they might go well, I don't want a Jehovah Witness at my door. But it they probably wouldn't identify it as a cult. Just kind of weird group of Christians. So like, I guess my question is, is that a problem? Is it not a problem? When does it become a problem? Areyou picking up what I'm laying down? You just can't answer.

Preston Meyer  1:09:44
There's no singular answer. I think it's tricky. Critical thought is hugely important and evaluating things on a case by case basis is necessary I think.

Katie Dooley  1:10:00
I also think part of it is why we do this podcast, which I also talked about last week is being able to question those in power and make change in your own organization, religious or otherwise. You know, I guess in the case of Jehovah Witnesses in particular, just because I don't mean to pick on them, but they're an easy example right now is with such a large membership, if they could create a large enough movement to create change within the church to uncheck some of the boxes. It would just, you know, it needs education and critical thinking to even know that the boxes are checked, I guess, is where the problem comes in. And, you know, in the case of Tom Cruise and Scientology, he might not even know what boxes are checked, right? Because he's so powerful, he probably doesn't even hear half the horror stories from Scientology.

Preston Meyer  1:11:05
Unless he's in an actual position of authority within the church, it's perfectly reasonable that he could be unaware of a lot of these problems 

Katie Dooley  1:11:12
He's like number two, to like David Miscavige, only because he's so famous. And he's brought a lot of people in because it's Tom Cruise being a Scientologist, but I don't.

Preston Meyer  1:11:25
But is he a revered figure? Or is he actually an authoritative figure? 

Katie Dooley  1:11:29
I don't know if he has any... power

Preston Meyer  1:11:30
Like, he might not have administrative authority at all.

Katie Dooley  1:11:33
He's like Thetan level eight or something or 10? He's like the highest you can go. He's clear.

Preston Meyer  1:11:38
Well, yeah, he can definitely afford all those classes

Katie Dooley  1:11:42
Um, yeah, so that was a really big question that we didn't really answer, but important for people to think about in there... in whatever organization it is, even if your local Lions Club, you know, to evaluate what the community is doing in your world.

Preston Meyer  1:12:05
For sure. So what are some glaring red flags for cults outside of what we've already discussed.

Katie Dooley  1:12:13
The BITE model, I didn't add a ton because the BITE model is a very good overview. Again, it's hard as you will never know what someone else is thinking or believing or fully going through. So I want to give a few red flags for people for loved ones. Again, it's hard because you might not know the full extent of either their beliefs or what the organization is doing precedent, but this one on the list is guns because we're talking about the Branch Davidians.

Preston Meyer  1:12:45
There's so much discussion on whether or not the law enforcement was legitimately called to start this siege in the compound outside Waco, Texas years and years ago. And the idea of a religious group, stockpiling guns.

Katie Dooley  1:13:07
Which they did legally, but still they...

Preston Meyer  1:13:10
Yeah, they didn't break the law in collecting these guns as far as I have been informed. But the idea of a religious society, collecting a huge number of firearms, red flag, big red flag.

Katie Dooley  1:13:25
Another one I found is sharing theories and beliefs that are out of character.

Preston Meyer  1:13:30
Now, what do you mean by that? 

Katie Dooley  1:13:31
Well, I mean, Preston, as an atheist who has studied a lot of religion, if I came to you one day and started telling you very excitedly about my new religious beliefs, that probably be a red flag.

Preston Meyer  1:13:45
Yes, it would, I would definitely have questions for you, that's for sure.

Katie Dooley  1:13:50
And then if I started talking about the great and sexy leader of this group, and how much I just love him so much, and he's just inspired me to change my life. Another red flag.

Preston Meyer  1:14:05
And it doesn't mean that people can't make useful and productive big changes of heart. But think critically.

Katie Dooley  1:14:13
Well, I for a while there, I was worm-holing rabbit-holing going down the rabbit hole on YouTube for Muslim conversion stories. And none of them are like, I woke up and decided to be Muslim. They're all like, I thought about this for a really long time. And I read the Quran and I talked all my friends who are Muslim, and I talked to family about what they would think if I converted to Islam and yeah, so rapid change would be really weird. And I mean, of the handful of videos I've watched on it on YouTube it's typically Caucasian people. and a lot of them talk about how they're concerned about telling their family and friends so if someone's just like rip roaring ready to go. I'm a fill in the blank now. And it's something you haven't heard of... That's that's a red flag, again, any sort of exploitation this came up in the bite model and also might be hard for you as a loved one to know about financial or sexual exploitation. We might hear about financial exploitation more than sexual exploitation but..

Preston Meyer  1:15:28
But they both happen

Katie Dooley  1:15:29
Oh, totally, but I think someone might be like "Kay I'm broke I can't afford that" more than they say that they've been trafficked.  And then again, that scared to leave.

Preston Meyer  1:15:39
You can't really emphasize that one enough. 

Katie Dooley  1:15:41
No. If people are scared to leave the group, it's not a good group.

Preston Meyer  1:15:46
Yeah, if they're scared to leave, you need to help them leave.

Katie Dooley  1:15:51
We'll get you a new passport.

Preston Meyer  1:15:53
It's a tricky thing to do. Changing names, I mean, it's cheap enough to do it's I don't think it's terribly quick, but it's cheap. 200 bucks here anyway. 

Katie Dooley  1:16:06
All right. Well, good to know. I don't know why you know that. Yeah, those are the red flags I could find for you helping a loved one and again, falling back on that BITE model, as well as a really good guide for both yourself if you're evaluating a group or if you have a loved one you're concerned about.

Preston Meyer  1:16:30
Yeah. The International Cultic Studies Association has a definition for destructive cults.

Katie Dooley  1:16:39
Danger cult! As Preton's been calling it.

Preston Meyer  1:16:42
Yeah, I like to call them danger cults, they're slightly more. It's a little broader bracket than destructive cults. Destructive cults is defined by the International Cultic Studies Association as a highly manipulative group, which exploits and sometimes physically and/or psychologically damages members and recruits.

Katie Dooley  1:17:07
I like it.

Preston Meyer  1:17:11
It's pretty solid. I like it. My phone's been, alerting me to potentially more discussion on what definitions might show up.

Katie Dooley  1:17:22
Oh, right. Preston put out an APB for scholarly definitions of cults because, as we said, there's the cult in the sense of a baby religion in the cult in the sense of NXIVM.

Preston Meyer  1:17:38
Yeah, I've asked a handful of people specifically have them not look up a definition but to define it from what they're able to observe in what they think are cults. So I've got one fella saying, I would say a small to large group of individuals controlled by a charismatic individual or board of individuals in a situation wherein the group has a slavish and unquestioning dedication to that individual, or that board of individuals. It's pretty solid.

Katie Dooley  1:18:11
I like the term "slavish" because that basically encapsulates the BITE model.

Preston Meyer  1:18:15
It does. It's a nice short way to cover up everything we talked about.

Katie Dooley  1:18:22
We literally could have just read that sentence for this episode and been done.

Preston Meyer  1:18:26
For some people, a cult is a group of persons that have a common interest or belief in a common unusual thing, or person or religion. The only problem I have with that is what constitutes unusual.

Katie Dooley  1:18:41
I agree, because like I said, they all just branch off of other bigger things.

Preston Meyer  1:18:48
Usually, there's not a whole lot of new novel religious though.

Katie Dooley  1:18:52
No, there's some. And I don't I mean, I guess you would call them cults in the sense of small groups, around charismatic leaders, not necessarily dangerous ones, you know, likening it to early Christianity is you probably get some Neo-Paganism or Neo Wiccan. But even that is based in I don't actually know if a brand new idea would catch. We'll kind of talk about this in our next episode.

Preston Meyer  1:19:23
I mean, the Flying Spaghetti Monster was pretty new.

Katie Dooley  1:19:27
I was gonna say we're talking about the next but that was based off of existing ideas. If the Flying Spaghetti Monster came up with entirely new doctrine, I don't think it would catch, and Flying Spaghetti Monster hasn't caught for the same reasons as other religions, either. Next week, two weeks from now rather satirical religions. We're gonna jump off of cults and go into a weird realm of satire religions.

Preston Meyer  1:19:59
Yeah. it'll be a great discussion and a lot of fun, I think.

Katie Dooley  1:20:04
Any final thoughts on cults? 

Preston Meyer  1:20:07
Don't join cults. 

Both Hosts  1:20:08
One of us, one of us, one of us 

Katie Dooley  1:20:13
Those are my final thoughts.

Preston Meyer  1:20:17
Generally, just avoid any group that would subvert your individual free will, I think is ultimately the takeaway from this discussion.

Katie Dooley  1:20:29
Thanks Preston. Are we pimping ourselves now? 

Preston Meyer  1:20:37
Yeah, let's do it. 

Katie Dooley  1:20:38
Cool. Facebook, Instagram @HolyWatermelonPod, email [email protected]. Discord find it on our social media sites and leave five stars on Apple.

Preston Meyer  1:20:53
I think that's all. Thanks for joining us.

Both Hosts  1:20:57
Peace be with you.