And It Was Good?

Religion and morality are so intertwined. Many people believe we get our morals from the heavens. How do we know what is good and what is evil?

Morality is the line between good and evil. For a lot of people, morality is informed by their religious philosophies. However, we know that while it plays a part, it is not the only way that people learn morals. 

There are 4 types of morals:

Moral absolutism – common in monotheism, good and evil are fixed concepts established by the god(s).Amoralism – deny the existence of a true good or true evil, the opposite of moral absolutism.Moral relativism – standards of good and evil are based on culture, custom or prejudice.Moral universalism – a compromise between absolutists and relativists. Good and evil can be examined.

 

In this episode, we also discuss the arguments of morals being from religion, or a humanist source for morals. 

Morals from Religion

Have non-religious people just absorbed their morals from the religious people around them? A lot of laws and rules in North America come from the Protestant tradition, like monogamy. 

Some people say morals from the gods. The God of the Abrahamic tradition is meant to be seen as a righteous figure. However, there are some actions that don’t align with today’s morals. 

Religion is useful to humanity up to this point; it helps us organize our place in the world. Morality has been there every step of the way. 

 

Humanist Morals

There is basically a consensus that we don’t get our morals from religion. A lot of smart people have done writing on morals and we talk about the different stages of morality. 

A great question to ask yourself is “What if everybody did this all the time?”

Another argument against religious morals is that our interpretation of Holy Books has changed as our morals have. We interpret things differently or ignore passages altogether. 

 

All this and more....

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Preston Meyer  00:09

atheist and agnostic Oh man, I'm looking forward to today's episode we've kind of nudged chatted a little bit a couple of times.

 

Katie Dooley  00:19

I'm excited to I think this will be a lot like our don't stop believing episode.

 

Preston Meyer  00:27

Yeah, a little bit over this time, we're talking about morality on the holy watermelon podcast.

 

Katie Dooley  00:34

We're again, philosophical. again today, guys. And we're not philosophers. So I

 

Preston Meyer  00:43

think we've argued in the past, particularly in don't stop believing that we are a philosopher, anyone can be a philosopher, if you have an opinion about philosophy, some people argue that's enough to be a philosopher. Well,

 

Katie Dooley  00:57

also like our don't stop believing episode, I don't know how close to an answer we're gonna get.

 

Preston Meyer  01:05

Morality is a tricky thing. A lot of people like to look at morality as a thing where you judge the world based on what your personal morality is. And it's basically black white with some gray in there. And everything else is either Okay, or not. Okay. People don't think a lot about how other people have different systems of morality.

 

Katie Dooley  01:32

Yes. Morals are hard to because? I mean, yeah. Because what's good to one person is not good to another person. And then how do you make laws and rules and decisions that benefit the group?

 

Preston Meyer  01:55

Yeah, it's complicated and tricky. And in almost every case, somebody gets offended. Absolutely.

 

Katie Dooley  02:04

And actually pair this episode with don't stop believing if you haven't listened to yet, because I think, you know, you mentioned somebody people getting offended, this comes down to what you believe and why you believe it. So we're already getting into the weeds.

 

Preston Meyer  02:21

And I mean, morality, and ethics, which, depending on how you talk about them are synonymous. Sometimes they're not synonymous, depending on how you use them.

 

Katie Dooley  02:33

I purposely pulled out the definition of ethics to not muddy the waters perfect. Morality today.

 

Preston Meyer  02:40

Excellent. So it's, it's already is too complicated, but we're gonna dive in and see what we can get anyway. And so generally, morality is the the line between good and evil, more or less, but that gets tricky too. And for a lot of people in the world, their morality is informed specifically by their religious philosophies, but very often not.

 

Katie Dooley  03:14

It's interesting. So in doing the research for this, I was actually expecting far more. Far more articles and, and thoughts on this, the side that we do get our morals from religion, I thought it'd be more 5050. But from what I found, there's basically a consensus that we don't get our morals from religion, which is really interesting, because 84% of the world's population are religious. But still, even with that, there's a consensus that we don't get our morals from religion, which we'll get into the different sides right away here. But

 

Preston Meyer  03:54

it's, it's interesting that one of the last classes I had when I was finishing up my degree, was looking at the modern philosophies of religion, and just how religion works from the outside looking in, and specifically part of the course looked at its effects on the government in our country, and a lot of our laws and our cultural norms. And the morality that we adopt because of living in this nation that's run this way, comes from the Protestant faith tradition, where things like monogamy being the only acceptable form of marriage in this country. Is that a moral decision? Those it coming from a religious background who think that the only proper form of marriage can be monogamy is usually informed by the Christian tradition of no polygamy. But there there's A small handful of Christian groups that think polygamy is okay. The Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible says that polygamy is okay. Muslims believe polygamy is okay. But Catholics and Protestants are like no polygamy.

 

Katie Dooley  05:14

It's funny, you mentioned this and this in the notes or anything, but on an episode of Qi, which is quite interesting, it's a British, for those of you who might not know is a British celebrity trivia show. It's ridiculous. I highly recommend watching it. But the host, Stephen Fry whom I don't know how it comes up, because they just go off the rails sometimes. But he mentions in an episode of Qi, he says, It blows my mind that polygamy is legal, when it's, you know, as long as it's consenting adults, but adultery isn't illegal. And there that's not consensual. So just something to think about is I'm not saying polygamy is for everyone, but I you know, if you're a consenting adult, and you know, you're getting into a polygamist or open or whatever, you're polyamorous, whatever you want to call it, relationship, then all the power to you. Right?

 

Preston Meyer  06:08

And it's it's weird how often people need to be reminded that what is legal, and what is moral, don't necessarily overlap in every case. Oh, well, we're

 

Katie Dooley  06:20

gonna get to a quote, I don't know if you saw the quote, I

 

Preston Meyer  06:24

did see, I look forward to that coming.

 

Katie Dooley  06:28

Preemptive trigger warning, I'll wear it again when we get to it. But this is a very good example of what is moral is not always legal, and how vastly different morals can be and what it looks like when they're informed by different things anyway, yeah. Foreshadowing.

 

Preston Meyer  06:48

Generally, when we think about morality, in modern West, typically pretty standardly, people like to bring up the golden rule. And I like that it's, it's pretty solid.

 

Katie Dooley  07:01

It's a great rule. I saw your note on it. And I actually cited, just because I don't want people coming back being like, see, we do get our morality from Christianity.

 

Preston Meyer  07:12

The golden rule is a little older than Christianity.

 

Katie Dooley  07:16

So the first instance of the golden rule is from 1800 BCE in Egypt. So the yes, the Old Testament might have been around, but this is not a Christian tradition. Well, the Old Testament wouldn't even be around at this point. Really? I thought it was about 5000 years, so Oh, no, no, no.

 

Preston Meyer  07:33

It's the Old Testaments, a lot newer than that.

 

Katie Dooley  07:37

It says, due to the doer to cause that he do. Which,

 

Preston Meyer  07:42

I mean, that's a really poetic translation. I like it. But I could see why a lot of people would fumble with that phrase.

 

Katie Dooley  07:53

It sounds like a dope, doge meme to the doer to cause that he do. Yeah.

 

Preston Meyer  08:01

I like it. But basically, it's due to others as you would have them do

 

Katie Dooley  08:05

unto you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, and we'll get into it. But yeah, I think it's a good thing. If you're confused about the morals or the situation, the golden rule is actually a great reference point, to talk about somewhere else situations that would apply to you. But the first one that comes to mind is gay marriage. Well, if you're going to restrict someone's right to marry, how would you feel if they restricted your right to marry? And I think that's a good lens to look through things.

 

Preston Meyer  08:36

It's such a weird, and we've talked about gay marriage before. And that as a, as a moral example, I think is really interesting that a lot of people want to argue that marriage is a religious right. And yet, it's governed by the state, which is not a religious body. Therefore, your argument falls flat. It's dead. Marriage is not a religious, right.

 

Katie Dooley  09:03

No. And then the I mean, same thing, even looking at countries that are predominantly atheists like skin, Scandinavian countries, they still get married there. Yeah.

 

Preston Meyer  09:10

I mean, there's still plenty of faithful people in Oh, definitely predominantly atheist. Now. It's kind of weird to look at, but not a terrible thing.

 

Katie Dooley  09:23

Do you want to run through the four types of moral Yeah,

 

Preston Meyer  09:28

let's do it. So there are a good handful of views on the nature of evil and they tend to fall into four categories as Katie number. The first is moral absolutism. This is really common in specifically monotheistic traditions, but can come up in some polytheistic traditions as well. That good and evil are fixed concepts established by a deity or deities and that is It's all just kind of figured. And sometimes it's observable in nature or you're meant to deduce them from common sense. So it's it's kind of nebulous but there is an absolute this is this is good. This is evil. Marlon, and there's there's not usually a lot of gray in there. But I mean, depending on who you talk to, there's, the less absolutist you are, the more gray there is. And then you've got a moralism, which is some tricky stuff, where you outright deny the existence of a true good or a true evil that everything is great, kind of the exact opposite of moral absolutism. Some atheists will fall into this category, it's a lot easier for atheists and theists to be a moralists.

 

Katie Dooley  10:57

There's reasons a moralism resonates with me, which we're sure we can dive into after we get through the four types. But yeah, there's definitely an argument for for

 

Preston Meyer  11:07

it. Yeah. If this definitely jives really nicely with nihilism, if nothing matters, then what is morality? Why is it even a thing to talk about? And then somewhere in between those we have moral relativism, that holds the standards of good and evil are only products of local culture, customer prejudice, and in many instances are things that ought to be adjusted. Especially as people become more aware of groups outside their own. And then the idea of moral universalism. That's some tricky stuff, but it's the attempt to find a compromise between absolutist sense morality and the relativist view. Universalism claims that morality is only flexible to a degree, and that what is truly good or evil can be determined by examining what is commonly considered to be evil amongst all humans.

 

Katie Dooley  12:07

And because you read that word for word, I'll say that one's from Wikipedia. Yeah. No plagiarism here.

 

Preston Meyer  12:16

What you're doing copying straight from Wikipedia.

 

Katie Dooley  12:20

I copied a lot for this episode, not from Wikipedia, from everywhere, all sorts of places, just because some of the quotes I found from people speaking about morality, I found were good conversation starters. Right? As opposed to me putting all my thoughts down. I thought we could dive into some of these quotes about moralism from all sides. Have a conversation.

 

Preston Meyer  12:43

It is really well worded though I liked it.

 

Katie Dooley  12:45

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, good, good word grabbing a copy Ctrl C ctrl v.

 

Preston Meyer  12:52

So my wife and I have been watching for a little while the good place. First shut up and NBC but we've been watching on Netflix, because we don't have cable. And the show does a great job of exploring morality. Don't want to spoil too much of the plot for those of you who might feel interested in watching it later on. But one of the main characters Chiti is a moral philosopher, he did all of his work in university for his entire adult life, studying ethics and moral philosophy, and teaches it to the rest of the the ensemble cast in the show, on and off throughout. And, unfortunately, because he's, he knows so much about moral philosophy, he suffers from absolute intellectual paralysis, when it comes time to making any sort of decision about literally anything funny, he is frozen, by the fear, any sort of decision paralyzes him because he's afraid of making a decision that can have a negative moral or ethical impact, I guess. Which is really frustrating literally

 

Katie Dooley  14:04

doesn't do anything, right.

 

Preston Meyer  14:07

Like, this, literally is what killed him. And so so the good play starts, everybody's dead. And when you're dead, you're the points that determine whether you would go to the good place or the bad place. They're frozen. They don't impact you any further at this point in the narrative, but he's still paralyzed by the fear of doing something morally negative for guy and it's it's really interesting show. I love it. i That's one aspect of the show. There's plenty of depth to the characters that make it absolutely lovable. And I'm just focused on that one bit because that's what applies to our subject at hand. But good stuff.

 

Katie Dooley  14:54

One interesting while we're still talking about what our morals before we get into the two sides of it, one of the things I found her Interesting is the high faith doesn't believe that evil exists. Behind is a very interesting religion. It's a very inclusive religion. If you look at their temples, there's the Star of David and crosses and the Islamic moons. So it's very inclusive, but it is its own entity. We should do an episode on behind, but so they don't believe that evil even exists. It's just the lack of good. So they talk about how cold is the lack of heat and darkness is the lack of light. They don't exist. I don't know, I guess it goes back to your experience, right? If I'm sitting in a dark room, I don't go this darkness doesn't exist, right? It's dark. But it's an interesting,

 

Preston Meyer  15:50

it's an absence of light. Yeah. And that's actually a really useful response to the issue of how can there be evil if God is good and powerful? And they say that there is no evil, there's just an absence of goodness, because people either are good, or they're not. I

 

Katie Dooley  16:12

also like in the sense of, you know, giving people second chances, right, as anyone inherently evil. I mean, we can probably get into some of those arguments today. But I think most people have a lapse in judgment. Absolutely. So, you know, Hitler, Ted Bundy, probably are actually evil. But I think your average, you know, person in the present system, just, you know, circumstances and poor judgment got to them to where they're for sure. So, yeah,

 

Preston Meyer  16:52

yeah, it's, it's challenging, especially if you're looking at morality as a reason to demonize a person, you're gonna have a hard time.

 

Katie Dooley  17:03

But yes, that yeah, my brain already hurts thinking about. Because people will think I think most people think what they do with moral Oh, absolutely. Just like most people, when people believe what people believe they believe is correct. You don't believe something? Because you think it's wrong.

 

Preston Meyer  17:26

That's nonsense.

 

Katie Dooley  17:29

So probably, let's say 85% of what people do they believe is moral. Have I done things that hurt people that I regret? Absolutely, that I would look back and say that was immoral? Have you Katie, but day to day, I think I live morally. So it is absolutely hard to demonize Psalm one, when they think they're doing the right thing, or they're doing the best they can. And, you know, some ones terrorist is another person's freedom fighter, you know, right. Literally, Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist until there was like a benefit concert for him. And then he became a freedom fighter. So great marketing campaign. And absolutely apartheid should have was supposed to end but the global perspective of Nelson Mandela, up until his benefit concert was that he was a terrorist. Yeah, so

 

Preston Meyer  18:18

even Mahatma Gandhi was a terrorist. Now this, it's a little easier to show how he objectively may have been a scary terrorist. But he was also fighting for good things, and then started fighting for better things.

 

Katie Dooley  18:34

Bobby Sands, no nonviolent iron IRA. I mean, still today, you could ask someone about depending on who you asked about Bobby Sands, you'd get two completely different insurance. If you're an Irish republican, he's a freedom fighter, if you're Irish Protestant, he's a terrorist. So how do you? How do you decide?

 

Preston Meyer  18:57

One sense of morality is definitely tightly tied to one's philosophy, how they see the world and what things have value. And it's it only gets more complicated, the more you look at it. One can argue for a lifetime, whether something has real value or not, and whether that value is worth defending, and how much you're willing to fight to preserve any given thing is a question of morality as much as is a question of philosophy.

 

Katie Dooley  19:31

Absolutely. I mean, we could just go back and start talking about murder. Right? Yeah. Like capital punishment, murder versus capital punishment. What's, what's

 

Preston Meyer  19:41

the difference? Different one is that you feel like there is a moral benefit to it when it's capital punishment. Where I mean, some people argue that there's a moral advantage to murder. I

 

Katie Dooley  19:54

was gonna see I imagine if you spoke to each murder story Some of them might not have a good reason for it, but some of them probably did. Yeah. I think of Charlize Theron, the actress, her mom killed her dad in self defense, and she didn't go to jail. They moved from South Africa to America. But the judge said, yeah, it's self defense. But I mean, it is, you know, objectively murder.

 

Preston Meyer  20:22

Yeah, that's, it's interesting. The, the line between culpability and responsibility, you know? Yeah. Yeah, she if she's defending her family, she is responsible for the death. But is she legally culpable for that death when it is? Protecting her family? The court said, No.

 

Katie Dooley  20:49

We need to get a lawyer now. So

 

Preston Meyer  20:51

I have been reading the news lately and have got some frustrating feelings about some courts lately. Okay. Did you hear about Bill Cosby? Yes. Yeah. And the reason that they decided, yeah, he's should never have been in jail in the first place, is it's not even want to say it's immoral altogether. The whole decision making process has been made public that he was, according to these judges, the majority of the judges on this panel said, yeah, he never should have been tried at all, because the predecessor of the prosecutor, who was in charge of this trial, promised not to charge Cosby. And apparently, these judges, the majority of them are like, well, your predecessors promises. You have to hold them up. So you should never have charged him. So Cosby goes free, gross, morally, I think that's terrible. And some of the judges on that panel agree with me. Some of them find their morality in a different philosophy that I don't know how to define yet. John,

 

Katie Dooley  22:10

Well, John, Les Mis, their rule of law doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. Rule

 

Preston Meyer  22:15

of Law go to jail for stealing a piece of bread because you literally need to serve to survive. And yeah, that's, that's a skewed philosophy morality.

 

Katie Dooley  22:27

Um, do we want to get into these two sides of morals? Let's do anything else, you want to solve them? So I have two headings in our show notes. So where morals come from the pro religion, that's world's religion, and then we have a humanist? side. And I actually, like I said, I had trouble finding more in favor of religion than I thought I would. Sure.

 

Preston Meyer  22:56

So some people say that morals straight up are taught by the gods or God. And I don't know if you've been paying attention to some of my commentary in the past about Hellenism. But the father of the gods, the king of the gods, good old Zeus, does not teach morality, in fact, is a terrible example of a moral figure. And

 

Katie Dooley  23:21

there are other I mean, there are other gods in that Pantheon that aren't great either. This is particular Are there any

 

Preston Meyer  23:26

that are really I mean, like Stand Up Guys or girls based on our morality right now. Like off the top of my head? I don't remember a lot about Artemis, but I think she's all right.

 

Katie Dooley  23:41

I mean, she was my favorite when we learned about it in grade six. So they sent her a lot but she was like the goddess of the hunt and the moon and animals and nature. I can't think

 

Preston Meyer  23:54

straight up was a rapist.

 

Katie Dooley  23:56

Yeah, Dianne, ISIS was a drunkard, Aphrodite, and free love is probably a little more moral these days than she 300 years ago. Her morality

 

Preston Meyer  24:05

is definitely not as problematic as Zeus is I don't think she was ever hate rape is cool, because it's sex. That's not I don't think it was ever a thing. So I think we're still on pretty solid ground with Aphrodite unless there's something I've forgotten

 

Katie Dooley  24:25

when we do our Greek pantheon episode.

 

Preston Meyer  24:32

But for, let's say, specifically Christians, Muslims, Jews, the god of these traditions is meant to be seen as a righteous figure. And some of the stories don't reflect to the same morality that is common today. But overall, he is meant to be seen as the pillar of moral rectitude,

 

Katie Dooley  24:56

well, and even from the Hebrew Bible to the Christian Bible to the core On the differences in flavors draft shifts drastically So, and we'll get more on to that. But I found a quote that I'm going to read, go for it. The view that non religious individuals are morally dubious is deeply embedded in American society. Atheists and Gnostics are considered less trust trustworthy, even a moral, which explains why people don't believe in God are unlikely to be elected to high political office, such as President of the United States. Which

 

Preston Meyer  25:35

is why so many elected officials pretend to go to church way more often than they ever do. Which is a problem. Because if you're catching somebody in that kind of lie, it should make them harder to trust. And yet for some reason, the the whole of the public doesn't seem to have an issue with this. What

 

Katie Dooley  25:58

are the reasons you think that's the case? I need to word that question people

 

Preston Meyer  26:06

make choices about what to believe sometimes, we've talked about how sometimes you can choose to believe things, sometimes you believe a thing because you believe it. But sometimes when you have information like what this President is probably not as religious as he is showing off, and you can kind of tell by looking at him. Some people choose to believe that there's a narrative that is favorable, and they're going to go with it just because it's convenient to them. Like, I want to believe that he is as good as I want him to be kind of thing. And because

 

Katie Dooley  26:47

he's religious, it's more likely, I guess, because like you said, we have proof that morals don't come from religion, right? So it shouldn't matter. But apparently, it matters like a ton.

 

Preston Meyer  27:04

Yeah. An awful lot of people. And I've heard it several times, believe that if you don't believe in a God, then you have no reason to be moral. Which there's loads of problems with that argument.

 

Katie Dooley  27:22

On the humanist side of things, but you're absolutely right. We have talked about it in the past, I think it was like way back in the beginning, that episode, where we talked about religion being genetic, and, arguably, therefore morals, no morals are genetic. Kidding. It's the debate on whether religion is genetic or not, or what benefit it has, and how being religious is beneficial to people. And I think that ties in with morality, absolutely. In your what you think is moral? Am I making any sense?

 

Preston Meyer  28:04

I think so. Okay, so we're saying that religion is is useful for humanity up to this point in our social evolution, that it helps us to organize our place in the world, and the world around us in a way that we can understand it. And morality absolutely has been there all along every step of the way. It helps us navigate our relationships with other people and the world around us at large. And I think that's, that falls into what you were saying pretty, pretty, fairly.

 

Katie Dooley  28:41

Another quote, again, I just found all these great, quote, talking points that again, was for religion, as our source of moral says, one answer. Yeah, one answer to this is that moral values comes from religion, transmitted through sacred texts and religious authorities, and that even the values of non religious people have been absorbed from the religious history around them. And I'll interject and say that makes sense if 84% of the world is religious, that the remaining 16% Very well likely, as the minority could absorb their morals.

 

Preston Meyer  29:15

Like I said, you some of your morality has been the product of the Protestant faith tradition that's kind of helped and formed the colonization of North America. And

 

Katie Dooley  29:28

you know, as someone who's an atheist, but married and monogamous, I can't disagree. Some people this back to the code, everyone, some people worry that a general move away from religious faiths will will bring about some kind of moral breakdown in society. But humans, humanists will argue that moral values are not dependent on religion, and it is a potentially damaging idea in an increasingly secular society, society to start that there.

 

Preston Meyer  29:55

For sure. I don't see any issue there. One

 

Katie Dooley  29:59

of the The the notes I made too is that part of the problem with discussing religion and morality is that both terms are basically undefinable.

 

Preston Meyer  30:10

Morality is a lot easier to define than religion. But I mean, define what is moral? Well, and I mean, that's the problem is your art. It's you're arguing what is good and what is bad against, usually somebody who disagrees and says, No, this is fine. And this is perfectly acceptable and your sense of good and bad or wrong, which is complicated and frustrating for most people that have the argument.

 

Katie Dooley  30:41

I also remember we talked about in I think it was in the beginning episode, about morals coming from religion, and humans always being religious. Is it fair? Like we talked about Protestant values influencing us, but where did Protestant morals and values come from? Like how far back? Right we can say we're whatever, Christian society or we need a Christian God or the Abrahamic God to dictate our morals, but those morals came from somewhere. Yeah,

 

Preston Meyer  31:14

and I think it is interesting to look into that some of it is due directly to their connection to the Catholic tradition. And some of it is due to recognizing errors in the Catholic philosophical tradition of how people are meant to be towards each other. Especially the idea that you're teaching a thing. I don't believe it, I want to be free to believe what I believe that's, that's the big energy of Protestantism. And what led to the way that North America was colonized by Protestants. And so the whole believe what you believe in secret, don't shout it out too much. That is a Protestant, specific kind of philosophy. And it's kind of nifty to see how all that evolves out of the Catholic tradition that I mean, monogamy that we were talking about. The Christians when they first spread out from Jerusalem, baptizing the world. They were a polygamous people. And then the Romans were like, polygamy bad. You can have one wife only do what you want. It's okay to have sex with the boys and girls down the street. To the man not not the women. And footnote. It's not. But this was the Roman tradition. And that the it's weird to say that it was important to them that you were monogamous, but it didn't matter who you had sex with was the moral standard. And the Catholic tradition that came up out of that Roman Christian tradition? said, Well, okay, yeah, monogamy. Now, that had been our thing for a while, because the state said, so that's fine. But stop touching little boys and girls. And as well as it stuck, it is a immoral improvement.

 

Katie Dooley  33:27

Well, it's interesting that you say the States made the law because we see that even now. Where I mean, you said earlier, right? Where polygamy is allowed, if not encouraged, and other religious books, but you will not see it anywhere in Canada. And often these religious groups change their tune to follow the laws of the country. Yeah. All right. In fact,

 

Preston Meyer  33:46

every secular state on this planet says that polygamy is illegal, with one exception that I'm aware of who, Australia, Australia will not permit you to enter a polygamous marriage. But they will honor pre existing marriages that are done outside of Australia. Interesting.

 

Katie Dooley  34:10

Yeah. And I I'd be curious, you probably won't go to jail and Australia then if you're a polygamist. No, cuz you can be arrested. I know in the States, you can be arrested for polygamy.

 

Preston Meyer  34:20

Yes. The United States of America is a lot more anti polygamy than most in Canada. I don't think anybody has gone to jail for for polygamy lately. The people who have been pulling us in have gone to jail have been because of other abuses. Yes. And that's part of the the problem that is most visible when people talk about polygamy is we're talking about marrying children and other abuses. Yes.

 

Katie Dooley  34:49

That's why well, you'd like you're consenting adults, and you know what you're getting into, right, all the power to

 

Preston Meyer  34:56

you. And so, to me, it's weird that we have laws against polygamy. When if you just say, Mary children forced these other abusive, these laws against abuse, then we're going to be okay.

 

Katie Dooley  35:11

You made a point that I wanted to go back to Oh, yeah. When you said people believe what they want to believe and have the freedom to believe what they want to believe. I think this is actually a argument against morals and religion. Because if we look at Christianity, and all its denominations and what they believe, and what they believe, is moral. So the note I made is, you have Westboro Baptist Church, which I think is probably the least moral group in supposedly small groups in North America,

 

Preston Meyer  35:41

so easy to just paint them as our, our typical, these are the bad Christians, because

 

Katie Dooley  35:47

they're the worst of the worst. But you can take elements of that right like they are adamantly against homosexuality is the big one. I think they're the only one that pickets dead soldiers graves, I don't think that's common in any other denomination, but I hope not.

 

Preston Meyer  36:05

Right.

 

Katie Dooley  36:06

So you have them who, again, you know, hate the gays. And then we have our Lutheran pastor, we talked about first transgender leader in the Lutheran church, those are two very different morals in the same religion. So for getting our morals from religion, someone's reading the book wrong. And those are two extremes. Of course, I don't think Megan, Reverend Megan, is that extreme, based off of bio morals, but those are poorly polar opposites. And there's a whole bunch in between and there might be even scary, you know, more a bigger spectrum, then than that. But

 

Preston Meyer  36:52

yeah, I think religion has a part to play in forming a person's individual sense of morality. But I don't think it's reasonable to say that religion is fully responsible for any person, any person's individual sense of morality.

 

Katie Dooley  37:09

Absolutely. Because you still have school and family and jessamy Street. And I mean, I make that as a bit of a joke. But yeah, it's the thing that we learn, you know, they talk about sharing and all sorts of other things, spent a long time since I was just

 

Preston Meyer  37:26

living in a community has an effect on your sense of morality. And that's why you'll notice that people behave differently in big cities than they do in little towns. Absolutely. Because the way they relate to their neighbors

 

Katie Dooley  37:43

is different. Yeah. And, you know, I think of small town, Alberta, where we are, the types of people in rural Alberta are not that different. Right? You're predominantly white, you're probably Christian, you're probably conservative. So that exposure that may change your morality to someone who's different from you. If you've never had exposure to a Muslim person, then maybe that's something you're fearful of just because you don't know. And then you think, you know, Sharia law, and jobs are immoral, but it's just lack of exposure, and understanding, and most people don't want to go on the internet and Google that stuff. Which is why you should share the holy watermelon podcast with them.

 

Preston Meyer  38:30

Absolutely. All right.

 

Katie Dooley  38:35

Are we gonna read this horrible quote, I think it's so bad. It's so bad. So this is absolute moralism. This is that black and white, your morals are dictated by God and there is no gray area. This is cool.

 

Preston Meyer  38:56

It's so hard to read. I'm glad I read it before going into this trigger warning.

 

Katie Dooley  39:01

Shut it off if you don't like any sort of sexual abuse. So this is an interview with the honorable Reverend Father Simon Lococo, a Ugandan Minister of ethics and integrity. So he's a father. So he's, I'm Catholic, I presume.

 

Preston Meyer  39:21

So, already at this point. I know I'm, like I got this far before knowing that I wasn't going to like what I seek is

 

Katie Dooley  39:28

Ugandan and Catholic at the same time. Well,

 

Preston Meyer  39:31

okay, that's, that's a complicated combination of things. You and I went to go see the bookmark musical together, takes place in Uganda. And the interesting thing about that is that it said Uganda, because it's such a weird place. culturally speaking, it's very again, I'm gonna say abrasive, I

 

Katie Dooley  39:54

guess I was gonna say, very it's very First Century, it's very. So in Uganda, it's still it's very much illegal to be gay. There's still hundreds of countries around the world where it's illegal to promote lots of countries, there's only 200 countries in the world. So hundreds is inaccurate. But there's lots of countries, the majority of countries around the world, being homosexual is still illegal. But you can actually be stoned to death in Uganda for being gay or being accused of being gay. So So

 

Preston Meyer  40:25

relative to the Book of Mormon musical, it's interesting that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints last I checked, has no presence in Uganda, very in most of Africa, and certainly pretty much everywhere else in the world is a handful of Muslim states where they're not really actively present in Uganda as a place where they straight up avoided for a little while. Yeah, this is a culturally different than you're used to place. Yes. All right. Let's get back into Simon Makoto, the Honorable reverend.

 

Katie Dooley  41:01

Honorable reverend. So again, this is a country where homosexuality is illegal. He's obviously Catholic, where I think even Pope Francis is warming up to gay marriage, but I think it's still discouraged. So he viewed the heterosexual rape of young girls as preferable to homosexuality to consensual homosexuality. So he prefers that adult males sexually abused little girls to two men, consensually, having sex with each other. So the koto says, I say, let them do it, but the right way.

 

Preston Meyer  41:42

The interviewer says, Oh, let them do it the right way. Let them rape children the right way. What are you talking about?

 

Katie Dooley  41:50

And the color says no, I'm saying at least it's the natural way of desiring sex. So gross. And so this is someone who gets his morals from religion and moral absolutism from lynchin. And there is a problem with this.

 

Preston Meyer  42:13

But it's not just religion, having he certainly influenced background, but it's just the way he sees the world to validate saying this. And this is the Ugandan Minister of ethics and integrity and integrity.

 

Katie Dooley  42:33

What do you think? Do you think he'll get sainted? I'm kidding. I hope not.

 

Preston Meyer  42:39

I mean, who do we talk about that did get st. We talked about some terrible people. So we'll see.

 

Katie Dooley  42:47

Yeah, so that's really gross. And I think it's a great argument for your and you're right, there are cultural factors, but even the term natural way of desiring sex, where does that come from? Right.

 

Preston Meyer  43:02

I mean, what if you're born with it? It's natural, right? So again, he's having a philosophical argument, which is not a popular argument right now. The way he's coming at it is

 

Katie Dooley  43:18

pretty terrible. And then a trigger trigger warning off for now, so now we're gonna dive into the, the humanist side of where do we actually get our morals from, if not from religion? And how to atheists like me live a half decent life?

 

Preston Meyer  43:39

How do you do?

 

Katie Dooley  43:40

I mean, you know? Yeah, so one of the challenges with morals not coming from religion is that non religious people can't explain where morals come from. If not from God, well,

 

Preston Meyer  43:58

you say can't and people have tried and people have come with some pretty great explanations.

 

Katie Dooley  44:03

It's yeah, so the best I found is that it's emotional and genetic is that and we talked to we've talked about this before where if you're immoral if you're killing and stealing and whatever the chances of you having offspring are lowered?

 

Preston Meyer  44:18

Well, yeah, especially back in history where you would have been stoned for that activity. We have rules as a society and that has an effect on morality. I don't want to say though, they're directly connected one leads to the other directly immediately but they there's an effect that one has on the other both ways I think. It's It's not simple.

 

Katie Dooley  44:48

Why is having a hard conversation saying so? You got a thing. I have a thing and I just can't I don't know if I mean The note on here. I didn't make a note, but it was a Richard Dawkins talk, I believe and the question of, you know, oh, hell, if you don't believe in God, how can be a good person? And so he said, so he asked people to come up with something bad that a religious person could do or has done. And then to give an example of something good that an atheist could perform, because, and so we can think of lots of things that religious people have done that are bad, but we can't think of anything that an atheist couldn't do. Right.

 

Preston Meyer  45:41

That's an interesting way to illustrate that. I like that.

 

Katie Dooley  45:44

I thought it's pretty good. Because I mean, like you said, there's, there's obviously lots of examples of atheist behaving poorly. Yeah, there's, I'm not saying because you're religious, you're bad, but it's an easier, right. Like, what? What can you do? That I couldn't do? That's a good moral thing. Right?

 

Preston Meyer  46:05

I don't think there's anything on that list. Okay. I don't think that's how that works.

 

Katie Dooley  46:09

Well, then, there we go. Yeah, some notes.

 

Preston Meyer  46:14

I do have some notes. I found Lawrence Kohlberg model of moral development, pretty useful. The first stage is oriented around obedience for fear of punishment.

 

Katie Dooley  46:26

So this is like the primal reads like you need to be

 

Preston Meyer  46:29

good base reason of why not to be a dick, is because you're going to get beat for hurting somebody else. Basic fear punishment leads you to this basest form of morality. The second stage is essentially oriented around the reward for good behavior. Oh, don't just don't be bad, but also do a good thing. And I can get some sort of reward. Kind of nice. Yeah. And then the third stage of morality centers on making your tribe happy, and maybe even bringing a little bit of pride to yourself.

 

Katie Dooley  47:10

I like that, right? Because you do things to make your friends and family and pets happy. Yeah.

 

Preston Meyer  47:17

The fourth stage is about doing your duty, upholding the law so that you can expect the same of others. That's we're getting to some pretty strong morality of building a good community where you can feel safe, because you're doing the things that you need to do and expecting others around you to do the same.

 

Katie Dooley  47:38

I don't want to interject you to mention a topic. I forget who I was talking to, but we were talking about COVID. And things are opening up and people are still debating masks and vaccines. And I don't know how I was talking to you, if you're listening, let me know and I'll show you out. But he said, you know we've gotten so caught up in what is our rights as citizens that we've forgotten what our responsibilities are as citizens and you know, often rights and responsibilities. And that's what this reminds me of and we're obviously left leaning people so we've both been vaccine have masks and and we look at people who are choosing not to as immoral because this is a good example. They're not holding up their responsibility to society and general following. Well, especially

 

Preston Meyer  48:32

like not all people who don't get the right

 

Katie Dooley  48:36

reasons. Broad.

 

Preston Meyer  48:39

But broad stroking it. Yeah, it's certainly morally questionable to go without a vaccine when you can get it.

 

Katie Dooley  48:50

Fifth stage.

 

Preston Meyer  48:52

Yeah, the fifth stage. Now we're getting into the, the more the more evolved sense of morality, I guess. The fifth stage is centered around the consensus of thoughtful men. That's the phrase that Kohlberg used and I like it. It's doing what is right according to your society, to preserve your pride and the pride of others that other other people place in you and thinking about what is an effective good

 

Katie Dooley  49:26

and doing it this is that when your parents sit you down and they say I'm not angry, I'm disappointed a little bit yet but that's

 

Preston Meyer  49:33

that's a lot of what that is.

 

Katie Dooley  49:37

Not Andrew Preston. I'm just disappointed. Right. And for that hurts so much more. You're like, I mean, yell at me,

 

Preston Meyer  49:44

but you have some people who aren't so philosophically more morally evolved, that that expression doesn't work on them. And that's frustrating.

 

Katie Dooley  49:54

Now you're entering the world of narcissism.

 

Preston Meyer  49:59

Narcissism As a dangerous beast when it comes to morality,

 

Katie Dooley  50:02

we're not going to test. We're skipping that. And

 

Preston Meyer  50:06

the sixth and final stage on Colbert's model is pretty much the basis of the Golden Rule examining the morality of your actions through the lens of what if everybody did this all the time? So why is male rape immoral? Imagine suffering, being on the suffering end of that all the time. Obviously, it's a bad thing. Morality got real easy there.

 

Katie Dooley  50:35

Um, I like that. And I think it's a good segue into something that friends do. While he's a Dutch primatologist, I have a few points by him. But, you know, he says, if we made our decisions based, I'm paraphrasing, but if we made our decisions based off of a religious book, then we would open that book every time we were struggling with a decision.

 

Preston Meyer  51:00

There are lots of Christians that I've seen do that, really, and it's, it's really frustrating. especially

 

Katie Dooley  51:06

frustrating, because you can just find a passage that fits what you want to do.

 

Preston Meyer  51:11

Absolutely. You can

 

51:12

air go, Hey, I'm doing well.

 

Preston Meyer  51:16

So I've mentioned how the story of lightness to daughters is I found people who think that that's meant to be a moral story of good behavior. That an awful lot of people have been longing inside their homes for the last year and a half. I really hope that nobody is looking to this passage for guidance on how they should be behaving right now. Gross. I feel very confident I'm right, that nobody's doing that. But I have to admit that there's one in a billion chance that I'm wrong. And I really hope it's only that small.

 

Katie Dooley  51:52

So, since we are talking about friends to wall, alright, it's like I say he's a primatologist, he studies primates. And it's interesting because he says that primates have a moral code. And they show no signs of religion. You know, there's so you monkeys worshipping, or making sacrifices or having prayer circles, but they do have a moral code. And there's lots of other animals that have moral codes. Crows will hold grudges.

 

Preston Meyer  52:23

Actually, back to primates, I think I think it was baboons. It might have been different primates, but I think it was baboons. They had a whole population where all of the men, the male baboons, were killed off and they were gone. I was just females. And then they had males born and they were raised in a far less violent society, because in primates, the females aren't nearly as violent as the males. We're just like humans. There's a lot less art, there's a lot less evidence that you're wrong, then there's that you're right. Human men tend to be more of

 

Katie Dooley  53:08

a weird way that I was like, you

 

Preston Meyer  53:10

know, not trying to be tricky. And so with these baboons, when the men, the men, the male baboons grew up, they were taught to be less violent. And when they were they were beaten, and, and caused, they were beat. Yeah, they were, they were taught to be less violent, and they became less violent. And then when outsider males would come, the same thing that would be taught to be less violent, forcefully, sometimes. And that, I think it's a really good example of that morality that's being taught within this population of beings that we definitely count as less intelligent than ourselves when they seem to have morality figured it out better than many of us.

 

Katie Dooley  54:00

I mean, even I mean, this is a sad example. But like an abused dog. You know, I have a friend who has a dog that better now but was abused by men and was scared of men, right? So it's a learned behavior, and it obviously did not like being abused. And you know, kind of like cross holding grudges. It had an idea of who was dangerous and so if there were no no morals, it just be like, Okay, I guess I deserve this.

 

Preston Meyer  54:30

Oh, can you imagine living in a world where everything that you experience is because you deserve it?

 

Katie Dooley  54:38

There's a TV show there.

 

Preston Meyer  54:39

I guess. Like that instant karma idea is I find peace knowing that I don't deserve everything that comes to me. Good or bad. But can you imagine if you deserved every like you get a flat tire on your way to someplace and you're on a time sensitive chedule the feeling that you deserve this bad thing happening to you, that would ruin a lot of people. And there's far worse things happening to people who are far too young to deserve bad things. That

 

Katie Dooley  55:16

Wow. Topical discussion.

 

Preston Meyer  55:19

The world is a dark, scary philosophical place.

 

Katie Dooley  55:24

I like this quote by Richard Dawkins and I think it brings up a good talking point. He says that there is a moral Zeitgeist that is continually evolving in society, generally progressing towards more liberal ideas. And as it progresses, moral consensus influences how religious leaders interpret their holy writings. Morality, therefore does not originate from the Bible, rather, our moral progress informed put parts of the Bible Christian accept and what they now dismissed. Absolutely. Yeah, it just makes if you think of things that even 20 years ago, you know, precedent or both office fam, I honestly don't think if the office premiered today,

 

Preston Meyer  56:08

it would fly. All the second episode would have ruined the show. Absolutely.

 

Katie Dooley  56:13

Like, go back and laugh at it, but it's like this different context. Whereas now, it would not. And I mean, you know, I didn't watch a lot of friends. But I know Seinfeld for sure. Same thing. And these are not that old. Like Seinfeld. 40 years old.

 

Preston Meyer  56:30

How old? He is 40 years in the 80s. Did it really start in the 80s? Yeah, I

 

Katie Dooley  56:34

mean, friends started in 1994. That sounds right. Yeah. So almost Seinfeld's, probably five to 10 years. I

 

Preston Meyer  56:40

remember it was on the air when I was watching TV as a kid with

 

Katie Dooley  56:45

my dad all the time, but it's from the 80s. Okay.

 

Preston Meyer  56:49

Wow, time flies,

 

Katie Dooley  56:51

like 40 years ago, like, you can look back to the 50s, where like, we didn't have gay people, because they couldn't even we had

 

Preston Meyer  57:03

the hyperbole. They weren't super visible on every TV program. No.

 

Katie Dooley  57:08

And we go back to you know, sanatoriums and how we dealt with neurodivergent people and, and then you go back hundreds of years, and what we thought was moral. Versus now, in the Bible, if I'm not mistaken, hasn't changed a lot in?

 

Preston Meyer  57:27

Well, it depends on who you ask. You've got people who say the Bible was perfect, when it was published in 1611, under the authorization of King James, and no other version of the Bible, in any language is any good. Which I mean, that's a philosophical problem that is completely indefensible. But yeah, the the Bible largely doesn't change a whole lot. But the way people use it absolutely changes from decade to decade, and more rapidly lately than, say, 200 years ago. But yeah. I think it's interesting that the Bible, as when we talk about the parts of it, that include laws and not worry about so much about the testimonies and prophecies and whatnot, the legal codes in the Bible. They're more and more recently being recognized as, oh, yeah, this was an evolving text written by people based on the needs of their nation as time went on, rather than Yeah, God gave it in its perfect entirety. And that's why it never changes. So now people are finding it easier to say, Oh, well, this thing that seems super sketchy and morally kind of problematic, it's easier to recognize that this was the product of the people rather than the God they worshiped.

 

Katie Dooley  58:56

Now, while we're talking about rules and laws, what are your thoughts on people who say, I need religion to be a good person? It keeps me good.

 

Preston Meyer  59:08

Those are the people that can't be trusted.

 

Katie Dooley  59:13

Ran for far and fast.

 

Preston Meyer  59:15

If so, imagine, I am only moral because I am committed to my faith tradition to my congregation. And something causes me to stop believing that this congregation is worth my time worth the the energy of mind that it becomes a lot easier to shed the morals of that group and do the things that I wanted to do but didn't because of my faith, morality. That's a huge, scary problem.

 

Katie Dooley  59:48

This actually happened in real life. Absolutely.

 

Preston Meyer  59:51

It has happened a lot.

 

Katie Dooley  59:53

There was some metal guy, some metal musician, like fairly famous. I could grab his name If we're so interested, but take a second do it. Okay. Totally worth it. The guy who put a hit on his way after he left Christianity wow all right. So Tim lamb pieces from As I Lay Dying, was a devout Christian. And then I don't I don't know fully what happened to him, but I think he like got into drugs. Like he had some schism in his own personal life, and he left Christianity and that he put a hit out on his wife shouldn't be really nothing mattered. And so he decided to kill his wife with a hitman. He didn't do it himself. Can't keep his hands clean.

 

Preston Meyer  1:00:44

I guess there's that?

 

Katie Dooley  1:00:47

Well, so that's why we're on fire and run fast from people who say they need religion. Right?

 

Preston Meyer  1:00:54

Right. It's scary stuff. The relationship between religion and morality is a weird one. Like we look at, say, St. Teresa of Calcutta. We talked about her a little while ago. And I've I just I couldn't not bring her up again. Now that I know more about her. She's a great example for the question of morality. Either you agree with her religious philosophy that causing sick people to suffer is the thing that makes the world better. Or that tricking people and to religious rights is noble. Or maybe or maybe more interested in the more modern secular morality and believe that Teresa is a monstrous monstrous hypocrite, who deliberately acted deceitfully betraying the trust of those in our care and defrauding a global community of donors. All depends on what your philosophy is. Some still praise her because to them baptizing people is what gets you into heaven. Catholic tradition also states that liars thieves and traders go to hell.

 

Katie Dooley  1:02:07

Confusing, I'm confused. So

 

Preston Meyer  1:02:10

the real question is, which has the greater value positive or negative, which which means more to her moral status?

 

Katie Dooley  1:02:21

In the Catholic Church, it was the money that she brought it,

 

Preston Meyer  1:02:24

I would say sainted are they seeing the clutter on the fast track to sainthood? Yeah, so that's where the church stands on that.

 

Katie Dooley  1:02:34

I added this, like literally hours before you showed up. But there is a and again, I don't want to sound like I'm broad stroking anyone. But there was a study done in 2015, with kids across six different countries. And it was a it was a mix of religious and non religious and it was across religions. The their biggest groups were Christian and Muslim. But they had Hindu Sikhs, not enough of the those other ones other than Christian Muslim to get comparisons across anything other than Christian, Muslim and atheist. But it was a diverse sampling. And I pulled a few articles to read. And they're all worded differently. Everything from our they are religious kids are more selfish. They're meaner, or, or non religious kids are more generous. So the experiment is kids were given a sheet of 30 stickers. And they got to pick their favorite 10. And then they were told afterwards, they're like, oh, sorry, there aren't enough stickers to call around. Do you mind giving some of your stickers to the other kids. And statistically nonreligious kids gave about 50% of their stickers away. And religious kids only give about 40% of their stickers way. So that keep more for themselves. And again, I thought all everything from meaner to selfish to whatever. But it was pretty standard. And as kids got older, their let's say their generosity level became more pronounced. So as religious kids got older, they gave away fewer. And as as atheist kids, they give away more. So that's

 

Preston Meyer  1:04:25

interesting. Yeah. And it's that same sort of behavior is absolutely visible in, in politics here in North America. People like to talk a lot about the religious right, because most conservative conservatives identify that way because of their religious associations. And yet, nobody talks about the religious left where people like to save the Democrats are godless people, and the Liberals here artistically

 

Katie Dooley  1:04:56

impossible in the United States. because there's, I mean, just in the last election, it was pretty close to 5050. And more than 50% of America is religious. So some but some Democrats are not godless one

 

Preston Meyer  1:05:11

awful lot of people lean left because of their faith. What's interesting is that the godless liberals certainly outnumber vastly, of a godless conservatives, which tells you a little bit about morality and the need to take care of your neighbors.

 

Katie Dooley  1:05:32

One theory from this study is that, you know, religious people put in their time they They filled their moral cup on Sunday or Thursday or Friday. So they don't need to be the rest of Kenny to be as generous outside of that. It's also researchers are also also conclude that non religious kids make decisions more from reason and logic. Whereas religious kids go back to that absolute moralism of black and white decision making laws and codes and doctrine.

 

Preston Meyer  1:06:08

It's frustrating how tribal humanity is, even in this age of globalization, we still look at tribes. And if you're a church, going person, whatever your faith tradition is, if you're meeting with your community, your faith community on a regular basis, you're going to look at them as your tribe that they get your your charity. And everybody outside. Maybe they've got some but not nearly as much.

 

Katie Dooley  1:06:40

Yeah, huge. I don't I guess it's not a problem. If you're religious, there's a moral question. But it's potentially a huge problem. I'm just getting within your own community, right.

 

Preston Meyer  1:06:52

And for those people who don't have a faith community that they attend on a weekly basis, they're a lot more likely to see the larger civic community as their that group that needs their attention and their help. And it's worthy of giving. It's weird to watch.

 

Katie Dooley  1:07:11

While there are so many examples of it. I don't want to get too political. But there's a lot happening in the world right now that are good examples of that. Absolutely. I, you know, I think about the Indigenous kids, we've been finding across Canada. And I've talked to a few people, and they're just like shocked and appalled, which is, is great. I mean, that should be your response. But like, I'm not shocked. I'm sad, right? But I but we knew about it, right? And it's just an part of me is like you just haven't been listening for the years and years and years that our First Nations have said, this was horrible. I

 

Preston Meyer  1:07:52

have family who still denies that our nation has been hurting the First Nations people. Right. And

 

Katie Dooley  1:07:59

this is where and I don't I don't want to sound all you know, high and mighty. But this is, you know, we we've been told for years, we have a good friend of ours who you know, she's said don't celebrate candidate, I don't celebrate candidate, don't celebrate candidate. And now this is the year that everyone's like, we're not celebrating Canada. And I'm like, Yeah, this is like, I mean, it's still late for us as as white settlers. But we've, you know, kind of laid though for the last three or four years for Canada Day.

 

Preston Meyer  1:08:30

immigration status is an interesting thing. So for more Elson, well, even just is more simple than morally speaking. Like loads of people just like to say all white people are settlers. I mean, if I go back to Saskatchewan, I'm not a settler. My family bought the land that they live on. And I was born there. I am a native Saskatchewan, right. However, where I am now, bam, all over all over again. I'm a settler.

 

Katie Dooley  1:09:03

I mean, your white washing history.

 

Preston Meyer  1:09:07

I don't think white washing is the right word for it. But it's definitely a view that a lot of people are way more committed to saying I deserve to be here. Because I said so. And I mean, as a people, the white people came in and destroyed people's lives and livelihoods, their homes, their families, and that's super screwed up. And the morality behind downplaying it and not fixing the system that's caused all this damage. hugely problematic. Yes.

 

Katie Dooley  1:09:45

Any final thoughts? Or at the end of our notes? Yeah, I'm hot for Oh.

 

Preston Meyer  1:09:52

I think the big thesis that that I threw together at the end of our notes is it's a good solid way to finish this off. religious piety and zeal are not reliable predictors for ethical behavior. Way too many religious people are absolutely awful way too many atheists are actually good neighbors who take care of each other and aren't bad people.

 

Katie Dooley  1:10:20

Yes, religion

 

Preston Meyer  1:10:21

and ethics and morality? Sure, you can argue for a long time that they have gone together in the development of human culture. But somebody going to church every week or every day when that's an option, doesn't mean they're going to behave ethically or morally. Oh, at least not in a way that. Okay. Like we say to them, I'm sure that they think they're acting ethically or morally. If you were to ask them, they would say so. That doesn't mean they're acting according to the ethics of our community.

 

Katie Dooley  1:10:59

Not following Kohlberg. Model of moral development. Yeah,

 

Preston Meyer  1:11:04

that sixth stage of What if everybody did this all the time, really should help you navigate morality? It's solid rule. And it's, I like his wording. Like, it's basically the golden rule, but the way he words it is

 

Katie Dooley  1:11:21

reflective. Yeah, you're asking yourself a question. Yeah.

 

Preston Meyer  1:11:25

And it's important to be able to think about it to come up with an answer. And the way he adds all the time is actually really helpful.

 

Katie Dooley  1:11:35

Right? Because you might, you might go, oh, what's what's me stealing a candy bar from the convenience store? But if that happened to the store owner, all the time, right, it's the it's the idea of the few records for the many. Yeah, we've all been affected by a shitty store, or business policy, because the few have, right. I mean, I updated my business policies policies a couple of weeks ago, because I had a shitty customer. And if that happened all the time, I wouldn't be out of business. Yeah, so I agree. I think that's a good way to, you know, every customer that came into that convenience store stole a bar candy. I mean, potentially could have huge ripple effects. The the convenience store would go out of business. But if Aptera convenience store, Nestle would go out of business, which would be okay. They just seem more ethical chocolate practices.

 

Preston Meyer  1:12:28

It's not just their chocolate. They've got many ethical issues.

 

Katie Dooley  1:12:33

Hershey's dairy milk is Hershey's is dairy milk, Hershey's. I don't know, let's take an ethical chocolate brand. Fill in your ethical chocolate brand.

 

Preston Meyer  1:12:43

I like that people are paying more attention to ethical business practices than they have been in the past. Absolutely.

 

Katie Dooley  1:12:50

I think we're about to see a big change.

 

Preston Meyer  1:12:53

I think you're right. I hope you're right.

 

Katie Dooley  1:12:55

I think I don't, this might not go on the episode. But I think think the problem is that you can't you can't emotionally care about too many things. Like I'm not saying don't worry about anything. That's everything. You're right. It'd be Iraq. Right. And I mean, again, we I mean, just go on Instagram, and between Israel, Palestine and our first nations like, again, I'm not saying don't care, but it's hard to care about ever. You can't care about everything. Pick two or three and go hard on those. And if everyone pick two or three things that they really care about, we change the planet.

 

Preston Meyer  1:13:34

Yeah. And well, okay, I want to add a caveat to that, that's. Pick a few things you really care about. And also, don't just ignore the people who care about other things that you can recognize as important even if you're not just going to if you're not going to join the fight. That doesn't mean you shouldn't acknowledge that there is the worry is worth it. Cool.

 

Katie Dooley  1:14:01

If you disagree with us, or agree with us? This is a great episode to jump on to our Discord link is in the show notes. We'd love to hear your thoughts on morality and what you think is moral and where you get your, your morality from.

 

Preston Meyer  1:14:19

And if you've liked listening to us and want to help us keep this show alive into the years of the future, help support us on Patreon. Peace be with you.