Thaw | Many Glacier

Many Glacier is home to some of the park’s most popular trails, like the Grinnell Glacier trail. Many want to see Grinnell because—like the other glaciers in the park—it is retreating.

In our search to understand how Grinnell has changed, we meet someone who last visited the glacier over 30 years ago and hike with a researcher who discovered the power of portraits.

Featuring: Gerard Byrd, Bob Adams, Diane Sine, and Lisa McKeon

For more info, visit: go.nps.gov/headwaters

TRANSCRIPT:

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT GRINNELL INTRODUCTION Michael: Okay, Andrew. It's summertime as we're recording this. Andrew: Yep. Michael: But I want to rewind the clock to mid-may of this year. Think cool air, drizzling, rain, you know, spring. Andrew: Okay. I'm with you. Michael: This may I volunteered with the Harlequin duck project and we were trying to capture ducks on Upper McDonald Creek. And as we talked about in the Goat Haunt episode, you catch them by stringing a net all the way across the creek, and trying to catch them as they fly down. But with all the melting snow in the spring, that creek is flowing too fast to safely walk across. So a few people, and one end of net, get carried across to the other side in a raft. Andrew: So did you get to go across the Creek? Michael: Well, no, I stayed behind to help spot the birds with binoculars. But at the end of the day, everyone on the other side had to come back, and I volunteered to help catch the raft and pull them to shore. The raft—really conveniently—has a handle on the bow that helps you grab it. And I leaned over to grab it, totally missed, and fell face first into McDonald Creek. Andrew: [laughs] Ouch. Michael: Yeah, I was totally soaked. Andrew: Well, it's pretty cold in the spring. Did you have a change of clothes? Michael: Well, yes and no. Uh, it was very cold, but I didn't have any spare clothes. But the volunteer paddling the raft that I failed to catch had a spare pair of long johns. And despite my insistence that I'd be warm enough, made me go change into them. Andrew: So you had warm legs and a bruised ego... But isn't this episode about many glacier? Michael: Okay, let me finish. That volunteer's name is Gerard, and I'd met him before cause he drives a school bus for some of the local students I've led on field trips. But through the Harlequin project, I got to know him a little better. And a few weeks later I had the chance to get him in the studio. Gerard: Yeah, my name is Gerard Byrd, born and raised about nine miles from Glacier National Park in a little town of Martin City. Michael: He's the sort of wonderful person that seems to know everyone and can do anything. What were you doing just before this interview? Gerard: We were helping band songbirds. Yeah. Trapping and banding. Michael: I think he volunteers with every single wildlife research project in the park. Gerard: We started about 12—maybe 13—years ago helping out with the wolverine project, got involved and we put in roughly 175 back country miles. Andrew: Did you make him come into the studio just to return his long johns? Michael: No, he's, he's got wonderful taste and long underwear, but that's not why I wanted to talk to him. I wanted to talk to him about a trip he did with the Glacier Institute in 1986 Gerard: Glacier Institute was founded in 1983, started working in '84, I came on board in '85. I'm a school bus contractor. They were looking for someone to transport students around the park, specifically up over Logan Pass. Andrew: Wait, so what is the Glacier Institute? Michael: The Glacier Institute is one of the park's three official partners. They offer hands-on, field-based learning opportunities for both kids and adults all throughout Northwest Montana. And they do a lot of work here. Gerard: There's grizzly classes, flower classes, and then some geology classes, which included glaciology as well. And this one particular class, we were hiking into Grinnell Glacier—and it was a geology class, but one of the founders had wanted us to go and meet this gentlemen that was giving... I can't remember where he was from now. But anyway, he was giving a speech on Grinnell glacier. And so— Michael: The guy's name was Bob Anderson, and he was a geologist with the California Institute of Technology. And he wasn't just giving a talk on Grinnell Glacier. He was giving a talk in Grinnell Glacier. Gerard: They had an access point that we were able to enter underneath this glacier Michael: Into an ice cave. Andrew: Whoa. Gerard: It was about maybe three foot high, and it kind of went back maybe 20-some feet. Michael: The times I've spent in other park units like Mammoth Cave National Park. One of the biggest takeaways was just how dark it got, like what was the lighting? Gerard: Straight up? I mean, it's no different than a regular cave. If there were human bodies blocking that entrance. Yeah, it was, it would be no different than being in an underground cave. As I looked around, there was probably 20 of us crowded into this small space and there was a flash photographer taking tons of photos—leaned over and I said: "Lex, what? How come this is so obnoxious?" He goes: "Gerard, National Geographic's in here doing a photo-op here under this glacier." Andrew: National geographic was there? Michael: Yeah! They published a 20 page article, not long afterwards, which really reads like an introduction to Glacier: where it is, what it's all about. A harrowing search and rescue tale. And here's the one photo they use from the ice cave. Andrew: Wow, this is crazy. So this is under Grinnell Glacier? Michael: Yeah. The photo, it's really dark—this guy's wearing bright yellow pants sitting on the ice and yeah, it's in Grinnell Glacier. Andrew: I've been to Grinnell Glacier a handful of times, and this looks nothing like anything I've seen up there. It's like a totally different world. Michael: Yeah. And it's hard to tell in the photo, I asked him what the weather was like outside, and he said it was sunny. But it doesn't look at all like that. Andrew: No. Michael: It just looks dark. Andrew: And cold. Michael: Gerard described these little threads of ice that would dangle from the ceiling of the Glacier. And if you looked at it too long, either your breath or your headlamp would even melt them. So it was a really powerful experience for him. Gerard: Well, the funny thing was, is, um, I had visited with my wife when I came out and I said, Oh my gosh honey you got to come in and look at this. I said, this was incredible, I was so moved. Well, raising five kids and whatnot, it just was about three years later—and we decided that we could go back in. And we hiked in, come to this rock face, And I, [stammering], this is where the glacier was. I kept looking at the rock face, thinking, God, maybe I'm on a whole different, but I, I, I did recognize the area where we . And the glacier had melted back about 200+ feet. I was absolutely astounded. Michael: Three years. Gerard: Three years. That's when I really became aware of, of man's impact on our beautiful planet. Yeah. Andrew: So if that's how much it changed in just three years, what has he noticed in the last 30 years since then? Michael: Yeah, that was something I was really interested in, but he surprised me. When's the last time you went back to Grinnell Glacier? Gerard: It was back then probably '89. Michael: Really? Gerard: 80's, yep. Michael: Haven't been back since? Gerard: I haven't been back there since then. I've done a lot of different areas in the park since, but um, not, not been back there since '89. Andrew: Wow. 30 years. I can't imagine what he'd say. If he got to see it now Michael: I know. We have got to get Gerard to Grinnell Glacier this summer. Andrew: Welcome to Headwaters - a Glacier National Park Podcast. Brought to you by the Glacier National Park Conservancy, and produced on the traditional lands of many native American tribes, including the Blackfeet, Kootenai, Selis and Qlispe people. Michael: We’re calling this season: The Confluence, as we look at the ways that nature, culture, the present and the past all come together here. Andrew: I’m Andrew. Michael: I’m Michael. Andrew: And we’re both rangers here. And today we're going to be taking you on a journey to the Many Glacier valley. Michael: Nestled in the northeast corner of the park. Many Glacier is one of its most spectacular destinations. I know every time my family has come to visit, we've made a point of taking highway 89 on the East side of the park, just to get there. Typically the road is open from mid-May to late October, but the high elevation trails have a much shorter season because they're only reliably clear of snow in August. Andrew: According to longtime Many Glacier ranger, Bob Adams, there are two trails in particular that people come here to see. Bob Adams: ...that would be the Grinnell glacier trail. And that would be the Iceberg Lake trail, which... Andrew: This area is popular, like really, really popular. Bob Adams: ...but there are lots of people, roughly 600 or more a day. Andrew: That's 600 is on each trail. Michael: So this isn't the place for solitude? Andrew: Not exactly. And to make it even more extreme, Bob sometimes has to close one of those trails for bear activity. And if the Iceberg Lake trail is closed, then... Bob Adams: You'll get 900 people on the glacier trail. Michael: 900 people on the Grinnell glacier trail?! Bob Adams: So that may not be what you want. It may be exactly what you want because you maybe feel safety in numbers. That's, that's a false assumption, but people make that assumption. Michael: Why do so many people come here? HOTEL Andrew: I asked Diane Sine, she's a ranger. And she spent more than 40 summers in Many Glacier. Diane Sine: It not only has the, the actual glaciers that are still hanging in there, just barely. Then we also have the historic hotel, we have in my opinion, the best hiking trails in the park. So if you just wanted one location that sums up all, that's excellent about Glacier National Park it's Many Glacier. And yes, this is a commercial for Many Glacier. Andrew: And she's not totally joking about the commercial thing, the marketing of Many Glacier and of the Glacier National Park region as a whole is a really important part of the Park's history. Michael: What do you mean by that? Andrew: Well, in the early days of Glacier National Park, a lot of the infrastructure was built by the Great Northern Railway and the railway executives wanted this place to look like the Swiss Alps. Michael: Yeah. There's definitely Swiss architecture noticeable, not just at the Many Glacier hotel, but the Lake McDonald lodge too. But why Swiss? Andrew: That's actually a pretty interesting story. To learn more about it I decided to join Diane Sine, the ranger you heard a minute ago, on a tour of the Many Glacier hotel. Michael: Well, I'm jealous. Andrew: Luckily for you and our listeners, these tours are offered during the summer at the Many Glacier Hotel and Lake McDonald Lodge. You can find the schedule in your ranger led activities guide, which you'll receive at the park entrance station. Diane Sine: Well, welcome. My name is Diane Sine. I'm a seasonal ranger here with the National Park Service. I have done this for a whole lot of summers. This is our daily walking tour of the historic Many Glacier Hotel. Andrew: She told us about how she first fell in love with Many Glacier as a child on a family camping trip and all through college worked here in the summers as a singing waitress. Michael: She was a singing waitress? Andrew: Yeah. As she tells it: Diane Sine: In that era, all the employees at the Many Glacier Hotel were hired to staff the regular hotel positions because they all had music or drama backgrounds. And as a little girl just starting out as a cellist, I thought that's what I wanted to do. Michael: Why did they do that? Andrew: Well in those days, the Many Glacier Hotel was a bit beat up and weathered. So to attract guests, the manager decided to use music. Michael: Well, why have I never heard Diane sing at the hotel? Andrew: Well, she's not a singing waitress anymore. After those summers singing and waiting tables, something changed deep inside of her. Diane Sine: After having worked here for four years for the hotel, my life was warped. I was hooked on this place and I figured out how to become a park ranger. Andrew: And once Many Glacier wormed its way into her life, it never left. Diane Sine: Along the way I met my husband, who was another ranger here. We got married at Lake Josephine, had our wedding reception here at the dining room of the Many Glacier hotel. My stepdaughter met her husband here as well. And the tradition has continued. So... Andrew: But this is all a bit of a digression because although this place is important to Diane... Diane Sine: The Many Glacier hotel is considered to have national significance. It has value to the American story as a place that ties us to the past, not only the past with visitor experiences, but the past with the early development and advertising of national parks. Andrew: Diane told us about the construction of the building in the winter of 1914 when temperatures hit 40 below. Michael: Okay. We've both been here in the winter and 40 below is cold. Andrew: It's very cold. As Diane described it, the workers, the Great Northern hired: Diane Sine: Were hardy Scandinavian descendants and they could withstand hardy winters. And the story is... Andrew: The finished hotel was pretty impressive. Michael: Paint a picture for me. Andrew: Well, as you approach the hotel, a friendly bellhop clad in alps style, lederhosen opens the front door and offers refuge from the harsh winds of the valley in the warmth of the lobby. Michael: Wait, okay, lederhosen? Andrew: We'll get back to that in a minute. Michael: Okay. Andrew: Once you're inside, the lobby is vast and echo-y with a hodgepodge of different styles. A massive copper fireplace anchors one end, while the other opens up to an elegant spiral staircase. Naturally your gaze will be drawn up as your eyes trace the giant Douglas-fir beams towards the ceiling. And dangling from that ceiling is an impressive array of Japanese style paper lanterns. Michael: So I'm standing in a wild Montanan and Swiss chalet with Japanese paper lanterns? Andrew: Now you're catching on that's right. But even though there's a lot going on, the thing that really pulled me in was those giant Douglas-fir beams. And according to Diane, this was their intended effect. Diane Sine: The idea behind the design of both this Many Glacier hotel and the Glacier Park Lodge at East Glacier, they were originally referred to as "big tree lodges." The idea is that you can be down here in the lobby and you can actually feel like you're in the forest with the trees rising above you. Michael: That makes a lot of sense having stood in them, but you still have not addressed the lederhosen thing. Andrew: Okay. Okay. Well, part of it is actually an accident of history in 1914, as construction was just about to begin for the Many Glacier Hotel, World War I, cut off Americans from some of their favorite European vacation destinations. The Great Northern saw in this an opportunity to put the American West on vacationers' radar. And they started to market this area as a replacement for the Swiss Alps. Michael: Okay. But people go on vacation to Spain or to Germany. Why Switzerland? Andrew: Well as Diane tells it Louis Hill, who at the time was the president of the Great Northern Railway, just really liked Swiss architecture. Diane Sine: He had a home outside St. Paul where his family would go for winter getaways and ice skating parties. And that home was designed as a Swiss chalet. But he also had a winter home at Pebble Beach, California. In fact, his home became part of the golf course there. The design for his pebble beach home was also Swiss architecture. So the guy just had a thing for Swiss chalets. Michael: How'd the Great Northern get word out about the area? Andrew: Well, they decided to do this big advertising campaign called See America First. Michael: See America first, huh. Andrew: And the idea there was to try to convince Americans that vacationing in the national parks was the patriotic thing to do. They also gave artists free trips out here. And as you can imagine, once those artists saw this place, they took the idea of See America First and just ran with it. One of these artists was the writer, Mary Roberts Rinehart. Diane Sine: She was a very well-known writer of the time. She went on to write a couple of books about her experiences in glacier park. She said, "I have traveled a great deal of Europe. The Alps have never held this lure for me, perhaps it is because these mountains are my own in my own country." So that was her idea. Be a patriotic American, see America first, come to the Switzerland of North America, come to the Many Glacier Hotel. Michael: So this marketing campaign is why we have all the Swiss buildings around glacier? Andrew: Exactly. And it's had a pretty big impact on the way people use the park even to this day. But it also starts to get at something that's really central to the mission of the park service. Michael: What do you mean? Andrew: Well, we're supposed to be preserving these places for future generations, but our mission is also to allow for their enjoyment today, that can be a tough act to balance. Michael: Okay. I see what you're getting at. People come to Many Glacier to see the bears and the glaciers, and to feel a sense of wilderness, but their very presence alters those things. Andrew: Right, the Many Glacier hotel and the marketing around it got a lot more people to come out and enjoy this area. But it also changed the character of the valley. When people and nature come together, both are changed by the encounter. Michael: But it's not always a bad thing. Andrew: Certainly not, encountering the natural world is an important way that we can learn and grow as people. Michael: I know that hiking here in Many Glacier has changed both you and I, but in our next story, I'd like to look at the way that we collectively, as people have changed Many Glacier as well, although we might not have meant to. Andrew: You know how we've been talking about doing a hike in Many Glacier. Michael: Yeah. Andrew: Well, I just talked to Lisa McKeon. She's a physical scientist with the USGS. She invited us to go up to Grinnell glacier with her next week. Michael: Oh my gosh. We've got to bring Gerard! Andrew: I thought you might say that. So I asked Lisa about it and it turns out that they actually already even know each other from some projects he's volunteered on and he's welcome to join us too. Michael: Of course they know each other. Well, I've got to call him. Andrew: Yeah, let's get him on the phone. Michael: After the break, we try to get ahold of Gerard. GLACIER NATIONAL PARK CONSERVANCY AD Andrew: Each episode, we seem to cover at least one thing that, like this podcast, wouldn't be possible without the support of the Glacier National Park Conservancy. Michael: With the help of some friends over there, we got the number of executive director, Doug Mitchell, and decided to call him up out of the blue to ask about these projects. Andrew: For this episode, we wanted to ask about the restoration work done on the Many Glacier hotel. Doug Mitchell: Glacier Conservancy, Doug Mitchell speaking. How can I help you? Andrew: Hey Doug, it's Andrew and Michael, how are you doing? Doug Mitchell: Hey guys, great to hear from you today. Michael: Likewise. Andrew: We wanted to call because for this episode I had the chance to go on a tour of the Many Glacier hotel with Diane Sine, and she pointed out a staircase to me that she mentioned you might've had something to do with. Doug Mitchell: Ah, the famous double helix staircase. To be able to bring that back here in the 21st century is really a treasure. And those people who haven't seen it ought to definitely get out there and take a look. Michael: Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. This magnificent, as you said, double helix, like kind of DNA strand staircase. Doug Mitchell: Yeah. You know, we joked a little bit around here that they needed a t-shirt for the lodge that says history it's in our DNA. And history and historic renovation really is in our DNA here at the Glacier Conservancy, as well. And that is a property at Many Glacier that had fallen in disrepair. And actually some had talked about tearing it down and what a great decision not to. Andrew: Absolutely. Has the Conservancy, had a chance to be involved in any other historic preservation projects in the park? Doug Mitchell: We really have spent a lot of time and focus on that because really our future is part of celebrating our past. There's a lot of different kind of places that we've been able to help like the Wheeler cabin and the Sperry chalet of course, and the Walton ranger station. And those kinds of historic preservation projects are ones that we've been very proud to be involved in over the years. And really we think add to the fabric of, of this great tapestry that makes up Glacier National Park. Michael: Well, thanks for making the project possible in the first place. And thank you for taking some time out of your day. Doug Mitchell: Absolutely. Thanks guys. Call anytime. Michael: All right, bye Doug. Doug Mitchell: Alright, cheers. CLIMATE—PART 1 Michael: Before the break, I found out I had a chance to get Gerard back to Grinnell Glacier for the first time in 30 years—so I called him. Naturally, Gerard’s a busy guy—I didn’t get ahold of him the first, or second time I called. Gerard: Hey Michael, Gerard here. Yeah I haven’t forgot about you, I had you on my list, but I— Michael: But after playing voicemail phone tag, I reached him. And invited him to join us. Well, we're going on Tuesday with Lisa McKeon. So you're certainly welcome to tag along. Gerard: Oh I would love to, I'll have to look at my calendar to see what's on there, but I, that would be a wonderful invite. Thank you. Michael: The next day, he shot me an email. Michael: So we had everybody meet at park headquarters and wasted, no time getting going, because if you're headed to mini glacier, you should plan on an early start. Whether you're looking for a parking space or a campsite, everything fills up early, like really early. And on top of that, it's not especially close. It's the farthest main entrance from the airport. And from the West entrance alone, it takes about two and a half hours. Whether you take Going-to-the-Sun Roard to St. Mary or Highway 2 under the south end of the park. But we found a spot and set off on one of the crown jewels of glaciers trail system. Now the trail is popular not just because of its destination, but because of the scenery along the way. If you're not looking at wildlife, you're looking at towering snow-capped mountains, or crystal clear lakes. Roundtrip it's 11 miles and you gain 2,600 feet of elevation, so it's not an easy hike. In fact, one of the fan favorite ways to do this trail is to actually skip the first few miles entirely. The Glacier Park Boat Company offers historic wooden boat tours, and some of their tours include a hike to the glacier. Taking that boat shuttle shaves off nearly four miles of the hike, but none of the elevation. If you're interested in boat tours in Many Glacier, or anywhere else in the park, it pays to plan ahead. We didn't catch a boat though, we just hiked. And you don't have to hike too far before you stumble into one of the most famous views in the whole park, a bright blue Grinnell Lake tucked into the mountains. Andrew: And if you've ever seen a poster of the park odds are, it was a picture of Grinnell Lake. In fact, Lisa McKeon told us she had a poster of the view in her college dorm room. Lisa: Yeah, I've never, I've been up this trail so many times. I never thought about that, but, uh, you know, the classic Grinnell view. Gerard: Good story. Michael: When I worked for a different agency in a different state, that same poster was on the wall at the office next to me. Andrew: And I had a funny experience with this view as well. When I got hired, I was in college and I was so excited about it. I'd never been here before. And so I Google image, search Glacier National Park, downloaded some cool pictures for my like phone background. And I didn't ever really look up where it was, but I was hiking up here for the first time and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is the view from my phone." So I took my own photo from that spot. And I still have it as my. Daniel: That's still your background? Andrew: Yeah. Daniel: This whole time. Andrew: I was like, this is it! That's why I came here. Michael: And it is so easy to get swept away by the beauty of this trail: by the wildflowers, by the wildlife, whether it's mountain goats or bighorn sheep. But the entire time, I was distracted wondering how Gerard was going to react once we finally saw the glacier. And the trail does a really good job at building that anticipation because you can't really see it the very end. But after a few hours and a few thousand feet, we made it. We crested that final hill and were able to look down at Grinnell Glacier. And it was the first time any of us had seen it that year. But for Gerard, it was the first time seeing it since the eighties. Daniel: All right, Gerard, what's the big reaction to this view? Michael: That's our producer, Daniel. Gerard: There was just more snow and ice here. Right here, there was just... snow. Michael: Gerard's a guy who always has something clever to say. I had never seen him at a loss for words, but he stood there for a minute. Stock-still. Staring out at the ice in disbelief. Gerard: Holy cow. Gerard: Wow. Michael: I felt pretty fortunate to be there in that moment with Gerard. I left him totally speechless, and experiences like his are as powerful as they are rare. In the grand scheme of things, most people are lucky to see a place like Grinnell Glacier once in a lifetime, let alone have the chance to revisit it. I mean, growing up in Ohio, I could have driven in any direction for several days and never seen anything quite like it. And that's where Lisa's work comes in. Lisa McKeon is a physical scientist with the USGS or United States Geological Survey. And over the course of her career, she's taken experiences like Gerard's and made them a lot more accessible. Lisa: No, I agree. I mean, we've got, you know, area change data. We've got some volume estimates. We've gott mass-balance. We have a lot of quantitative data looking at change—most people can't relate to that, and they can look at a pair of images and go: "Wow! Something's happening there." Yeah. Michael: The USGS' Repeat Photography Project is an effort to visualize glacial change, not with graphs or charts, but with pictures. By retaking historic photos of glaciers throughout the park, you can see the change that's happened in the intervening years with your own eyes. And Lisa has been involved since it got started in 1997. Lisa: I got swept up into doing repeat photography, right at the very beginning. Jerry DeSanto had brought in this repeat pair early in the spring and showed Dan, and we had decided: "Oh yeah, let's, let's do some of this let's document glaciers in the park with photography." And then later that summer Vice President Al Gore decided to come out and have a little event here at the glacier. And they, he was talking about climate change. And like, right then at 1997, the media came out and we had taken a few repeat photos and they couldn't get enough of them. You know, it was a first, some of the first really visual evidence that people could relate to with this idea of climate change. Andrew: It struck a chord, like as soon as you started. Lisa: Mmhmm. Because they're so easy to—. Gerard: Yeah, they answer to themselves. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. You don't really need any text, nothing. It's just, it's... Michael: A picture really is worth a thousand words. Because I could read through statistics about how Boulder glacier's area today is 35,298 square meters when it used to be 829,577 square meters. Or I could show you a picture. Well, not really. This is a podcast, but you could find the photo from a 1932 horse packing trip to Boulder glacier where 80% of the frame is filled with ice. And four people stand there staring into the mouth of a towering ice cave. When Ranger Jerry DeSanto took that same photo just 50 years later, the frame was empty. The ice had receded, revealing only barren rock and the distant mountains. These repeated photos have made it possible for people no matter where they are or when they are to make sense of this change. But while these repeated photos are easy to understand, they're quite difficult to capture. Lisa: Some of them take quite a while. Some are, you know, much harder than others. But it's been amazing, sometimes, when you think "Oh, I know where that one is." And you go, Oh, no, I guess that's not it. Oh, it's up here. So then you climb up, Oh wait, no, no, no, no. It was down quite a bit. And you just can go up and down, up and down, we've gotten better at it, for sure. Michael: They don't physically mark any of the sites. So they rely purely on perspective to initially find the right spot. And one thing that's helped a lot is technology. Lisa: It's been really helpful with Google Earth now, cause you can kind of go in the landscape and line up the peaks pretty well that way before you get out in the field. Michael: The next part of our day was actually taking a repeat photo. And while Lisa had taken this repeat photo before, had seen it on Google earth, even had the GPS coordinates—she gave us the authentic experience. Using a printed photo, we had to line up what we could see (boulders in the foreground, mountains in the background) with the landscape in the picture, which was easier, said than done. Lisa: Further that way... Michael: We knew from the picture that we'd have to go up. So we started up this moraine or hill of loose rock, and feeling pretty good about it until it dropped off. And we had to climb down the Boulder field and scramble it around until we saw the snow patch. And then we had to go over... [fading out] Michael: Needless to say, it took a while. And as we were searching, we had to be very mindful of timing. Because a lot of factors go into a successful repeat photo. The time of day, can cast shadows off the mountains that make it harder to see the ice. And on a larger scale, the time of year is important. Seasonal snow is a huge obstacle to taking a good photo. Lisa: You have to wait so long. I have people in June asking if they can come to the park and take some photos for me. And I have to say, well, you can't really until the end of August at the earliest, maybe, or September, you gotta wait for the snow to melt. So you can see the actual margin. Gerard: Are we seeing snow there on top of the, Lisa: yeah, it's mostly. Yeah... Michael: And even we were cutting it close, right? Andrew: Yeah. Quite honestly, our trip was really more about getting a behind the scenes look at the process and not necessarily because Lisa needed to repeat this particular photo. Lisa: We don't have the Moraine in front. No, no. Cause that's going to be, Michael: Once you finally find the place where the photo is taken, your last step is to get the camera set up and line up the shot. Lisa: Yeah. So I'm just putting the camera on the tripod and then I'll just kind of start lining things up and slightly overshoot it so I can crop it down a little bit. But I try to match it as closely— I haven't taken any photos all summer. So half the battle is remembering how to use this camera. Andrew: No pressure, you just got everyone watching you. Lisa: Yeah. I'm not even like paying attention to that. Michael: Once it's all said and done, you've got the photo. If it's good enough, Lisa, will line it up next to its historic reference photo back at the office and upload it onto the repeat photography project webpage where you can access all of them. And at the time of this recording, at least 80 photos have been repeated of 20 different glaciers throughout the park. But after spending the day playing research assistant to Lisa, we wanted to take a repeat photo that had never been done before. One that had her in it. CLIMATE – PART 2 Andrew: In the summer of 1988, the year before Gerard returned to the glacier with his wife, a teenaged Lisa McKeon had hiked with her parents up to Grinnell glacier. When they got to the top, Lisa posed for a photo. With a white tank top, yellow shorts, and some very 80s sunglasses Lisa stepped out onto Grinnell glacier for a picture. With a grimacing smile that screamed mom, please don't make me take another photo, Lisa unwittingly created the perfect opportunity for a future repeat picture. So Michael, when I pulled out that photo of Lisa up at Grinnell glacier, that was your first time seeing it, right? Michael: No, it was, and it took me a second to even figure out what the photo was of let alone, who is in it. Daniel: Do you recognize Lisa in them, would you have know that was her? Michael: I don't think so, no. Daniel: You would have been like, who are these people? Michael: Look at this lovely picture. Daniel: What if Gerard was like in the background? Lisa McKeon: That's right. Wouldn't that be cool? He's down below us. In the cave, going "oooOOOooo." Andrew: I tried to find the spot for Lisa to stand and recreate her vacation photo, but I ran into a problem: the lake. Andrew: I spent the last 10 minutes or so trying to find this other spot that we have from one of Lisa's photos from the eighties. And I keep coming further down this way, and I still think I've got to go, we've got to go a lot further that way to get to the spot. I think where you were standing is in the lake at this point. Lisa McKeon: Yeah, I would guess. Andrew: So I don't think we're going to be able to get you back to that spot. Lisa McKeon: Yeah, I know, right? Andrew: Finding the nearest dry spot to where she had stood in 1988, Lisa replicated the pose and grimacing smile. Daniel started to wonder if these photos might be used someday too. Daniel: What about the next 20 years and like the photos that you're in, do you think that people working for USGS in the 2050s will be using photos of you as a teenager and repeating those? Lisa McKeon: I have not submitted these to the archives yet. Gerard: "Who was that babe?" Lisa McKeon: We'll see. I, yeah, I'd probably rather have those submitted than now, but certainly, I mean, it's really exciting thinking that the photos I'm taking now will certainly, you know, be used in decades to come. Andrew: This place has meant a lot to Lisa. Some of her best memories are here in this glacier basin. Lisa McKeon: I've been lucky enough to come up as, you know, a youth. And I brought both of my daughters here because I think it's a really special place. And I want them to see the beauty and, and to see the change, you know? I want them to have their own memories of what it was and then be able to see how it's changing. And my husband proposed to me here too. So I have a lot of great memories associated with this place. Andrew: Where was that? Lisa McKeon: Um, I think it was right down on some of these rocks here. Actually. I don't even remember exactly the spot. Yeah. Beautiful piece of slick rock like this. Andrew: Over a lifetime of visits, she has seen so much change, not just to the glacier, but to people's understanding of it and to our understanding of the changing climate. Lisa McKeon: Well, our glaciers are going. They're on a track to disappear now. But I think what we've done is helping the world understand the connection between climate change and what's happening on the landscape. Yeah. A little piece of that, you know, this happens to be a really visible piece, but there's so many other ways that climate change is impacting this park that are not as visible as a glacier melting away. They get people thinking about climate change. And I love that maybe it begs the question of, wow, what else is happening in this park? And there's scientists out there figuring that out. And there's people maybe looking a little more closely for it in their own experiences here. Andrew: It made me wonder, when did Gerard learn that the changes he'd seen up here were part of a wider global phenomenon? Michael: Yeah, that's something I was wondering too. And I asked him, were you aware of climate change when you made that trip up to Grinnell? Gerard Byrd: I was aware that something was taking place because of humanity here or how we were living. Because when I come back that three years, I was like astounded. I was just so impressed that we could get underneath the glacier at that time. And I told my wife, I said, Oh honey, we got to go back in. I've got to show you this. This was the coolest experience. And so I, I wasn't really aware of it at that time. It was the three years later. Andrew: So it sounds like you noticed that something was going on just from your experience here, but later, did you read in the paper or hear on the news about climate change science and realize, Oh, that's what I saw at Grinnell glacier. Gerard Byrd: Yeah. Then the pieces to fit in the puzzle. And I was like, well, yeah, I witnessed something there that was pretty profound. And didn't know it at the time. Andrew: With all the good memories from this place, but also all the evidence of melting. I wanted to ask Lisa how she felt about Grinnell Glacier on the whole. Does she have a good or bad feeling from this place? Lisa McKeon: Yeah. I think what you described, bittersweet is exactly what it is. Cause it's always a stunningly beautiful place, but the glacier is shrinking and I mean, that's one of the main comments I get back from the repeat photos is people feel loss. Andrew: But when I asked Lisa, if she still had hope she perked up a bit. Lisa McKeon: I do have hope. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I don't, I don't have hope that these glaciers are going to last here, but I'm hopeful that climate change is not going to be the end all for this planet. Andrew: Before we left. Lisa wanted to walk up to the glacier itself to let us see what was happening to it with our own eyes, hear it with our own ears. As we approached the sound of melting water rushing off the glacier turned into a roar. I had to shout just for Lisa to hear my question, Andrew: Where is all this water coming from? Lisa McKeon: It's coming from the glacier, every bit of it. It's melting off the glacier. It's quite a torrent today. It's a hot day in the glacier basin and things are cranking. Andrew: As we stepped onto the glacier we reflected on what made this change so meaningful. The earth has always been changing and glaciers have advanced and retreated many times, but something about this felt different. Andrew: Yeah, I guess the fact that these changes that have historically happened on like geologic timescales are now happening on human timescales makes it really dramatic. Gerard Byrd: Yeah, very poignant. And I think that's where the repeat photography comes into play. That's a very visual, you can see that you don't need to be one political party or the other, old or young, you can see that blink of an eye, right there. Lisa McKeon: I think for me, I feel part of this change. There's something major going on--that's climate change. And ice melts when it gets warm. And we're part of that equation. I'm part of this. But I also feel like part of the solution to, not necessarily changing the trajectory for these glaciers, but in a larger sense, this brings awareness. It's, it's pretty stark. It's raw. Gerard Byrd: Well, it's such a quick change in geological time and there was change in the past, but it was thousands of years. I mean, what I've witnessed in just my little lifetime here is incredible. Your grandkids, your great-grandkids won't see this. It's brought an awareness to me for just being present. You know, this is all we have. Tomorrow is not here, yesterday is gone. This is all we have. We're just fortunate to be able to witness the last part of Grinnell glacier. Andrew: That’s our show—If you’re interested in learning more about the Many Glacier Hotel, the USGS Repeat Photography project, climate change, or are interested in getting to Grinnell Glacier yourself, we put links in the show notes to more info. Michael: Thanks for listening! CREDITS Renata: Headwaters is a production of Glacier National Park with support from the Glacier National Park Conservancy. The show was written and recorded on traditional native lands. Andrew Smith and Michael Faist produced, edited and hosted the show. Ben Cosgrove wrote and performed our music. Alex Stillson provided tech support Quinn Feller designed our art Renata Harrison researched the show, Lacy Kowalski was always there for us, and Daniel Lombardi and Bill Hayden were the executive directors. Support for the show comes from the Glacier National Park Conservancy. The Conservancy works to preserve and protect the park for future generations. We couldn't do it without them, and they couldn't do it without support from thousands of generous donors. If you want to learn more about how to support this podcast, or other awesome Conservancy projects, please go to their website at glacier.org. Of course you can always help support the show by sharing it with everyone you know— your friends, your family, your dog... And also leave us a review online. Special thanks this episode to Gerard Byrd, Diane Sine, Bob Adams, and Lisa McKeon.