HBR IdeaCast
1,701 episodes - English - Latest episode: 11 days ago - ★★★★ - 1.6K ratingsA weekly podcast featuring the leading thinkers in business and management.
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Episodes
How Generative AI Changes Organizational Culture
May 18, 2023 20:16 - 34 minutes - 33.5 MBRead just about any business history and you realize just how much a firm’s success depends on its culture. Without the right culture, you can't have successful innovation. You can't compete successfully. You can't thrive over the long term. So, if you want to lead your organization into a future that features generative artificial intelligence, you need to build the right culture for it. In this episode, How Generative AI Changes Organizational Culture, HBR editor Amy Bernstein speaks to tw...
Breaking Through When You Feel Stuck
May 16, 2023 13:00 - 27 minutes - 28.4 MBYou don’t have to be a famous author to suffer from writer’s block. We all can get stuck in our thought processes and mired in our actions. That's true for leaders and managers as well, explains Adam Alter, a marketing professor at the NYU Stern School of Business. He has studied how people hit plateaus or roadblocks in their work and careers. And he shares different methods for breaking free, including one proven tactic that seems very wrong: doing nothing. Alter wrote the new book Anatomy o...
How Generative AI Changes Creativity
May 11, 2023 21:14 - 34 minutes - 33.9 MBFrom prehistoric cave paintings to an inventor’s Eureka moment, creativity has always been described as a particularly human trait. But something strange can happen with generative artificial intelligence. Your ideas can take shape far faster. You also get ideas that you might never have imagined on your own. So, who is the creator here? What is creative work in the era of generative AI? What is innovation in this emerging world? In this episode, How Generative AI Changes Creativity, Adi Ign...
A Marketing Professor and a Matchmaker Talk Personal Branding
May 09, 2023 13:00 - 31 minutes - 30.8 MBUnless you're famous - or want to be - you might not think of yourself as a brand. But whether you're in a meeting or on social media, interviewing for a job or asking for a promotion, the way you carry yourself conveys a certain image to the people around you. Jill Avery studies marketing and is a senior lecturer at Harvard Business School, and Rachel Greenwald is a professional matchmaker and dating coach. Together, they explain why a strong personal brand is important for professional succ...
How Generative AI Changes Productivity
May 04, 2023 20:57 - 37 minutes - 36.7 MBHow Generative AI Changes Everything is a special series from HBR IdeaCast. Each week, HBR editor in chief Adi Ignatius and HBR editor Amy Bernstein host conversations with experts and business leaders about the impact of generative AI on productivity, creativity and innovation, organizational culture, and strategy. The episodes publish in the IdeaCast feed each Thursday in May, after the regular Tuesday episode. Generative artificial intelligence is grabbing headlines with the widespread pu...
Disruption Isn’t the Only Path to Innovation
May 02, 2023 13:00 - 22 minutes - 22.8 MBDisruptive innovation has proven such a powerful idea that many people now equate innovation with market disruption. But INSEAD strategy professor Renée Mauborgne says there's a powerful way to create new markets without destroying jobs, companies, and communities: "nondisruptive creation." She explains how some entrepreneurs and companies have been able to grow billion-dollar businesses that are new markets rather than displacements of existing ones. Two examples are the microfinance industr...
Special Series: How Generative AI Changes Everything
April 27, 2023 22:37 - 2 minutes - 1.91 MBGenerative AI seems to be everywhere right now, but what do you actually need to know? HBR IdeaCast is cutting through the noise in the special series How Generative AI Changes Everything. How will this new technology upend workforce productivity? What impact will it have on creativity and innovation? How can you build an internal culture that uses generative artificial intelligence and adopt it effectively in your organization? What could it mean for your company's strategy? Hosted by HBR ...
Reid Hoffman on Building AI and Other Tech More Responsibly
April 25, 2023 13:00 - 34 minutes - 33.7 MBAs a founding board member of PayPal, cofounder of LinkedIn, and a partner at Silicon Valley VC firm Greylock, Reid Hoffman has long been at the forefront of the U.S. tech industry, from the early days of social media to the launch of new artificial intelligence tools like ChatGPT. He acknowledges that technologists are often better at seeing the benefits of their products and services than they are at predicting the problems they might create. But he says that he and his peers are working h...
Stop Neglecting Low-Wage Workers
April 18, 2023 13:00 - 26 minutes - 27.2 MBMany people blame the shortage of low-wage workers on the enduring impact of the pandemic. But management professor Joseph Fuller and senior researcher Manjari Raman of Harvard Business School say that the real reason has been long in the making. Their studies show that companies view low-wage workers as people who will be in the job only for a short time. Instead, the researchers find that these employees are loyal and want development and a clear path to career advancement. The researchers ...
How Managing Your Anxiety Can Make You a Better Leader
April 11, 2023 13:00 - 29 minutes - 29.1 MBThe business world has increasingly begun to recognize the importance of mental health, but we still have a long way to go in openly acknowledging our challenges with it. Writer, entrepreneur, and podcast host Morra Aarons-Mele says that when we take the time and energy to better understand and talk about our own issues, we can actually harness the learnings to become better managers and colleagues. She says that there are a number of ways to stop anxiety from spiraling and instead use it for...
A Forensic Accountant on How Companies Can Avoid Fraud and Scandal
April 04, 2023 14:00 - 24 minutes - 26 MBFrom Theranos to Enron, we can't get enough of corporate scandals. We also can't get enough of the intriguing people who perpetrate them. But instigators of fraud are not all Disneyesque villains chasing money and power at any cost, says DePaul University accounting professor Kelly Richmond Pope. She studies white-collar crime and finds that besides intentional perpetrators, there are also accidental and righteous ones. And she shares real stories of these long-overlooked employees and explai...
X’s Astro Teller on Managing Moonshot Innovation
March 28, 2023 14:00 - 28 minutes - 27.6 MBHow do you solve the world's toughest problems? Or find the next big thing in tech? Lots organizations fail to explore and take big bets on new ideas because they can't tolerate the mess of experimentation and the fear of failure. At X, Alphabet's dedicated innovation factory, they don't have that problem, and Astro Teller, Captain of Moonshots at X, can explain why. Undertaking projects on everything from rural communication to ocean health to machine learning, he and his teams operate with ...
Brain Tech Is Getting Really Good. Here’s What Managers Need to Know
March 21, 2023 14:00 - 28 minutes - 28.2 MBWhat seemed like science fiction for decades is now a reality: companies are selling wearable tech and monitoring devices that can sense people’s brain activity. Neurotechnology opens incredible opportunities for new products and safer workplaces. It also raises huge red flags for privacy and ethics. And managers and organizational leaders are on the front lines of these dilemmas, says Duke University School of Law professor Nita Farahany. She explains the commercial products based on neurote...
Why You (and Your Company) Need to Experiment with ChatGPT Now
March 14, 2023 14:00 - 23 minutes - 24.7 MBThe online application ChatGPT and its integration into Microsoft search engines have put generative artificial intelligence technology in the hands of millions of people. Early adopters are using them in their daily jobs, and preliminary academic studies show big boosts in productivity. Managers can’t sit on the sidelines, says Ethan Mollick, an associate professor of management at The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. He argues that companies urgently need to experiment with...
IBM’s Ginni Rometty on Skill-Building and Success
March 07, 2023 14:00 - 30 minutes - 28.8 MBFor years, employers have used university degrees as a major requirement for hiring. But, for many jobs, success depends more on skills -- and the ability to adapt and learn -- than on piece-of-paper credentials. Ginni Rometty, former chairman and CEO of IBM, realized this early on -- first by watching her mother and other female relatives support their families and later by seeing what it took to rise to the top in her own career. At the helm of IBM from 2012 to 2020, she pushed the company ...
The Ins and Outs of the Influencer Industry
February 28, 2023 14:00 - 30 minutes - 30.8 MBOnline influencers are an increasingly important way for companies to find new customers and drive sales. Whether you're a marketer who wants to more effectively use social media or a consumer targeted by influencer content - in good ways and bad - you'll benefit from better understanding how the industry works. Emily Hund, researcher at the University of Pennsylvania, explains that it was born from not only increased connectivity but also Great Recession job cuts which forced people in creat...
Why Leaders Should Rethink Their Decision-Making Process
February 21, 2023 14:00 - 26 minutes - 26.9 MBMany people believe that leaders instinctively make the best decisions based on past experience, almost like muscle memory. But Carol Kauffman, assistant professor at Harvard Medical School and the founder of the Institute of Coaching, says falling back on automatic patterns of behavior is often wrong—especially in a crisis or high-stakes choices. Instead, she explains a framework of stepping back, evaluating options, and choosing the tactics that work best in each situation. Kauffman is a co...
The Subtle Art of Disagreeing with Your Boss
February 14, 2023 14:00 - 26 minutes - 27.3 MBWhether you're someone who enjoys ruffling feathers or the type of person who'd like to challenge the status quo but shies away, you'll benefit from understanding the best, research--backed ways to practice disagreement - even insubordination - while holding onto others' respect at work. Todd Kashdan is a psychology professor at George Mason University and the author of the book The Art of Insubordination: How to Dissent and Defy Effectively. He explains how contrarians, and those with ideas ...
Why Many Companies Get Layoffs Wrong
February 07, 2023 14:00 - 29 minutes - 29.5 MBFrom Microsoft to Google to Meta, many of the world's biggest tech companies have been announcing layoffs recently. Their explanation is usually that they overhired and need to cut costs. But Harvard Business School professor Sandra Sucher, who has been studying layoffs for years, says companies often underestimate the downsides. Layoffs don’t just come with bad publicity, she explains. They also lead to loss of institutional knowledge, weakened engagement, higher turnover, and lower innovati...
A Deeper Understanding of Creativity at Work
January 31, 2023 14:00 - 29 minutes - 29.2 MBWe all know that creativity is the backbone of innovation and, ultimately, business success. But we don't always think deeply about how creative people get their ideas and the steps we might take to do the same. Gabriella Rosen Kellerman, a physician and chief product and chief innovation officer at BetterUp, and Martin Seligman, a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, say there are four types of creativity -- integration, splitting, figure-ground reversal, and distal thi...
Guy Raz on What Great Business Leaders Have in Common
January 24, 2023 14:00 - 27 minutes - 27.7 MBBy hosting the podcasts How I Built This and Wisdom from the Top, Guy Raz has won an inside look at how visionary leaders build their own careers and incredible companies. While many leaders have unique qualities that help them succeed, he has identified three behaviors that consistently rise to the surface. These leaders create a culture of collaboration. They encourage risk-taking. And they allow for failure. Raz shares stories of leaders of everything from Starbucks to Proctor & Gamble.
Money, Flexibility, Development? Figuring Out What Employees Really Value
January 17, 2023 14:00 - 28 minutes - 27.7 MBEven in a slowing economy, the battle to attract and retain talent persists. But employers need to look beyond what people are currently demanding — whether it’s higher salaries, more stock options or the flexibility to work from home. Studies show that, over the long term, employees also find value in aspects of work that they overlook in the short term, such as community and opportunities for growth. Professor Amy Edmondson and INSEAD associate professor Mark Mortensen offer up strategies f...
Work Insights from the World’s Longest Happiness Study
January 10, 2023 14:00 - 25 minutes - 25.2 MBIt's the start of a fresh year, and optimism is in the air. But if you want happiness to extend far beyond your New Year's resolution, Robert Waldinger says you can take some inspiration from the longest-running study of happiness out there. He’s a psychiatrist who runs the Harvard Study of Adult Development. The longitudinal research has followed individuals and their families for nine decades. He shares what makes people happiest in the long run and how their work factors into that. Walding...
Best of IdeaCast 2022
January 03, 2023 17:23 - 25 minutes - 23.9 MBFrom incivility for frontline workers to struggles with hybrid work to actual progress made since the murder of George Floyd, HBR IdeaCast spent 2022 sharing impactful management research and exploring the social and business trends that affect workers and leaders. Join hosts Alison Beard and Curt Nickisch as they listen in on some of their favorite interviews of the year. They share what made these conversations so memorable and insightful and why they’re still worth a listen—or a re-listen—...
LinkedIn’s CEO on Hiring Strategies and the Skills That Matter Most (from The New World of Work)
December 27, 2022 14:00 - 29 minutes - 28.7 MBIn The New World of Work video series, host and HBR Editor in Chief Adi Ignatius explores how top-tier executives see the future and how their companies are trying to set themselves up for success. Each week, he interviews a top leader live on LinkedIn, and in this special IdeaCast episode, he speaks with LinkedIn CEO Ryan Roslansky on how his company adapted during the pandemic (and after) and how he approaches growth, talent management, and more. You can browse previous episodes of The New ...
Ron Howard on Collaborative Leadership and Career Longevity
December 20, 2022 14:00 - 28 minutes - 27.4 MBFor decades, actor-producer-director Ron Howard has made popular and critically acclaimed movies while also maintaining a reputation for being one of the nicest guys in Hollywood. He explains how he turned early TV gigs into long-term success and why he often involves his cast and crew members in creative decisions. His latest film is Thirteen Lives.
Why Some Start-Ups Fail to Scale
December 13, 2022 14:00 - 26 minutes - 25.6 MBManaging rapid growth is a huge challenge for young businesses. Even start-ups with glowing reviews and skyrocketing sales can fail. That’s because new ventures and corporate initiatives alike have to sustain profitability at scale, according to Harvard Business School senior lecturer Jeffrey Rayport. He has researched some of the biggest stumbling blocks to long-lasting success and explains how to make the tricky transition out of the start-up phase successfully. With professors Davide Sola ...
You’ve Made Some DEI Progress. Don’t Stop Now
December 06, 2022 14:00 - 29 minutes - 28.8 MBOver the past few years, organizations around the world have invested in diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives with varying results. But to achieve lasting change, they'll need to commit to that work for much longer, says Ella Washington, organizational psychologist and professor at Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business. Her research shows that companies move toward DEI maturity in five stages (aware, compliant, tactical, integrated, and sustainable) and each takes time ...
The Growing “Do Good” Economy
November 29, 2022 14:00 - 25 minutes - 24.9 MBFrom corporate social responsibility to ESG to “doing well by doing good,” an increasing number of organizations are pursuing positive social impact, and it’s not just nonprofits and government agencies. But incorporating social impact into a for-profit business raises all kinds of system dilemmas, says Jacob Harold, a cofounder of the philanthropy data platform Candid and the former CEO of GuideStar. He explains a bundle of tools that can be used together to create meaningful change. Harold ...
Let’s Protect Our Frontline Workers from Rude Customers
November 22, 2022 14:00 - 25 minutes - 26.1 MBFrom videos of drunk and disorderly airline passengers to stories of hospital visitors angrily refusing to wear masks, customer-facing work seems to have gotten a lot more difficult – even dangerous -- over the past few years. It's important that organizations understand the experience of frontline workers now, and help to better protect their employees, says Christine Porath, professor of management at Georgetown University. She's studied incivility for 20 years, and has spoken to workers in...
What We Still Misunderstand About Mentorship and Sponsorship
November 15, 2022 14:00 - 27 minutes - 27.2 MBCompanies offer sponsorship programs to help a more diverse group of high performers and future leaders advance. But the efforts can often misfire. Herminia Ibarra, professor at London Business School, says that’s because these arranged developmental relationships can lack authenticity and meaningful paths for action. She explains the key distinctions of mentorship and sponsorship and recommends that companies focus on two vital qualities: public advocacy and relational authenticity. Ibarra w...
Grit Is Good. But Quitting Can Be, Too.
November 08, 2022 14:00 - 28 minutes - 27.9 MBFrom politics to sports to business, we tend to glorify those who persevere, show grit, never give up. But former professional poker player and consultant Annie Duke argues that there is also great value in quitting — whether it’s a project, job, career, or company. She walks us through the biases that keep us stuck in the status quo even when other paths would be more fruitful and explains how to make better decisions. Duke is the author of "Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away.”
How Women (and Everyone) Can Form Deeper Bonds to Fight Bias at Work
November 01, 2022 14:00 - 28 minutes - 27 MBThe number of women—especially women of color—in leadership ranks at the world’s largest companies remains desperately small. Tina Opie, associate professor of management at Babson College, offers a new practice for women to lift each other up and fight systemic bias in the workplace, something she calls “shared sisterhood.” The idea is to be more honest with each other, forming truer bonds. That involves listening, understanding yourself, and a willingness to take risks. With University of I...
4 Business Ideas That Changed the World: Emotional Intelligence
October 27, 2022 14:00 - 45 minutes - 42.8 MBIn the early 1990s, publishers told science journalist Daniel Goleman not to use the word “emotion” in a business book. The popular conception was that emotions had little role in the workplace. When HBR was founded in October 1922, the practice of management focused on workers’ physical productivity, not their feelings. And while over the decades psychologists studied “social intelligence” and “emotional strength,” businesses cultivated the so-called hard skills that drove the bottom line. ...
What Leaders Need to Know About a Looming Recession – and Other Global Threats
October 25, 2022 14:00 - 29 minutes - 28.7 MBNouriel Roubini, professor emeritus at NYU’s Stern School of Business, says that a confluence of trends – from skyrocketing public and private debt and bad monetary policies to demographic shifts and the rise of AI – are pushing the world toward catastrophe. He warns of those interconnected threats, but also has suggestions for how political and business leaders can prepare for and navigate through these challenges. He draws on decades of economic research as well as his experience accurately...
4 Business Ideas That Changed the World: Shareholder Value
October 20, 2022 20:20 - 43 minutes - 42.5 MBThe idea that maximizing shareholder value takes legal and practical precedence above all else first came to prominence in the 1970s. The person who arguably did the most to advance the idea was the business school professor Michael Jensen, who wrote in Harvard Business Review and elsewhere that CEOs pursue their own interests at the expense of shareholders' interests. Among other things, he argued for stock-based incentives that would neatly align CEO and shareholder interests. Shareholder ...
NASA’s Science Head on Leading Space Missions with Risk of Spectacular Failure
October 18, 2022 14:00 - 29 minutes - 29.6 MBIn 2021, the U.S. space agency NASA launched a spacecraft toward a pair of asteroids more than 11 million kilometers away. The target? The smaller of the two asteroids, just 170 meters wide. The success of the $300 million, seven-year project demanded careful coordination of scientists, engineers, and project managers across different national space agencies. It also required strong leadership from NASA's head of science, Thomas Zurbuchen. He shares his path to an executive role at NASA, his ...
4 Business Ideas That Changed the World: Disruptive Innovation
October 13, 2022 14:00 - 45 minutes - 42.3 MBIn the 1980s, Clayton Christensen cofounded a startup that took over a market niche from DuPont and Alcoa. That experience left Christensen puzzled. How could a small company with few resources beat rich incumbents? It led to his theory of disruptive innovation, introduced in the pages of Harvard Business Review in 1995 and popularized two years later in The Innovators Dilemma. The idea has inspired a generation of entrepreneurs. It has reshaped R&D strategies at countless established firms....
What Kara Swisher Has Learned From Decades Covering Tech
October 11, 2022 14:00 - 29 minutes - 28.6 MBNo industry has had more impact than technology over the past few decades. Tech companies have changed the way we live, work, and interact with each other. They’ve helped us in a lot of ways, but they’ve also created some big problems. Kara Swisher is a journalist, entrepreneur, and host of the podcast On with Kara Swisher. She’s had a front row seat to the tech industry’s evolution and interviewed all of its biggest players. She speaks with us about key trends — past, present, and future — a...
4 Business Ideas That Changed the World: Scientific Management
October 06, 2022 14:00 - 46 minutes - 45.2 MBIn 1878, a machinist at a Pennsylvania steelworks noticed that his crew was producing much less than he thought they could. With stopwatches and time-motion studies, Frederick Winslow Taylor ran experiments to find the optimal way to make the most steel with lower labor costs. It was the birth of a management theory, called scientific management or Taylorism. Critics said Taylor’s drive for industrial efficiency depleted workers physically and emotionally. Resentful laborers walked off the j...
To Improve AI Outcomes, Think About the Entire System
October 04, 2022 14:00 - 23 minutes - 24.2 MBArtificial intelligence technology has been advancing, and businesses have been putting it into action. But too many companies are just gathering a bunch of data to kick out insights and not really using AI to its fullest potential. Joshua Gans, professor at Rotman School of Management, says businesses need to apply AI more systemically. Because decision-making based on AI usually has ripple effects throughout the organization. Gans cowrote the HBR article “From Prediction to Transformation" ...
Introducing 4 Business Ideas That Changed the World
September 29, 2022 23:42 - 2 minutes - 2.51 MBInfluential business and management ideas have tremendous influence over us. Like it or not, they shape how organizations are run and how people around the world spend their days. And Harvard Business Review has introduced and spread many of these consequential ideas since its founding in 1922. HBR IdeaCast is taking this 100th anniversary to ask: how have these ideas changed our lives? And where are they taking us in the future? Each Thursday in October, the podcast feed will feature a bonu...
Advice from the CEO of an All-Remote Company
September 27, 2022 14:00 - 28 minutes - 27.2 MBMost organizations have now accepted that the days of all their knowledge workers coming into the office full time are over. So what's next? Sid Sijbrandij, CEO and cofounder of Gitlab, thinks all-remote can be the answer. His open-source software development company took that approach from the start not because of the pandemic but because its founding team was dispersed and early employees were more productive at home. Now with more than 1,300 people spread across more than 60 countries, Gi...
It’s Time to Fine-Tune Performance Management
September 20, 2022 14:00 - 28 minutes - 28.3 MBMeasuring a broad set of standards across the organization seems like a fair way to judge employees’ performance year over year. But Heidi Gardner, distinguished fellow at Harvard Law School, says performance management systems often incentivize employees to scramble to hit their numbers and lose sight of the organizations’ bigger objectives. To boost collaboration and long-term customer value, Gardner shares a four-part scorecard that establishes shared organizational goals while also holdin...
Rolling Stone’s Jann Wenner on Cultivating Creative Talent
September 13, 2022 14:00 - 25 minutes - 26.3 MBRolling Stone launched in 1967 with a mission to not only redefine music journalism but also chronicle important societal changes. Under the leadership of founding editor and publisher Jann Wenner, it published work from some of the 20th century’s greatest writers, reporters, designers and photographers. He explains how he identified and managed that talent and shares other lessons from his five decades at the forefront of rock and roll. Wenner is the author of "Like a Rolling Stone: A Memoir."
Work-Life Supports That Truly Help Your Organization
September 06, 2022 14:40 - 27 minutesWork-life support programs have long been known to lower turnover and raise employee loyalty. But new research shows they also have a positive effect on promoting diversity among managers at those firms, an effect that’s even stronger than that of some popular racial-equity programs. Alexandra Kalev chairs the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at Tel Aviv University, and she explains why having strong, thoughtful policies around flexibility, time off, and dependent care pay off for com...
What Business Leaders Should Know Now About the Metaverse
August 30, 2022 14:00 - 27 minutes - 26.2 MBIt might still seem like a buzzword, or something that only matters to tech CEOs. But Matthew Ball, CEO of Epyllion and the former global head of strategy for Amazon Studios, says the metaverse is the "new internet" – and that it's already here. He argues that companies large and small need to not only better understand what the metaverse is, but should also be developing strategies around it today. That can have an impact on marketing, customer relations, product development, and much more, ...
Why Companies Decide to Sell on Amazon—or Not
August 23, 2022 13:00 - 28 minutes - 26.3 MBIt's a dilemma facing more and more brands: should you sell your goods on Amazon? It's the most visited e-commerce platform in the U.S. and the dominant retailer in 28 other countries. But that reach comes at a price. There are downsides like costs, competition, and lack of data. Ayelet Israeli is an associate professor at Harvard Business School and a coauthor of the HBR article "Should Your Company Sell on Amazon?" She talks through step-by-step how businesses can decide whether Amazon is r...
Strategies for Dealing with Difficult Coworkers
August 16, 2022 14:00 - 28 minutes - 27.9 MBWork is challenging for lots of reasons, but most of us have probably come to realize that what makes or break a professional experience is people - and sometimes we encounter a boss, peer, or direct report that isn’t at all fun to work with. Amy Gallo is a contributing editor at HBR, and author of the book "Getting Along: How to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People" and the HBR article “How to Navigate Conflict with a Coworker.” She shares some of the best ways to deal with these kinds of...
Decisions Don’t Have to Be Either-Or
August 09, 2022 15:50 - 25 minutes - 25.4 MBMaking business decisions often means choosing one path over another. And psychology research shows that our brains are wired to make either-or choices. But Wendy Smith, management professor at the University of Delaware, and Marianne Lewis, dean of the University of Cincinnati Lindner College of Business, argue for moving beyond tradeoffs. The researchers teach leaders how to embrace ambiguity and paradox to come up with solutions that are far better than one choice or the other. And they sh...