Transportation Fire Protection (PART 2) - Martin Workman

EP4.2 - Drew talks with Martin Workman, VP of Product Management at Viking, about his involvement in tunnel fire protection. Martin also explains his involvement on a variety of NFPA committees. Foam fire protection is discussed in part 2 of the interview. Recently there have been some changes to foam protection in NFPA and with a bunch of new products.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode six part two of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. We continue our talks with Martin Workman of the Viking Corporation. In part one, we discuss tunnel fire protection and part two we get into more depth on foam fire protection, some of the consolidation in the N F P A committees and new products coming to the market. So tune in and enjoy it. Thanks. Transitioning kind of away from tunnels, I know we can talk a lot about that. Um, you guys at Viking or you specifically, what, what N F P A committees do you actually sit on?

Martin Workman: (00:50):

Uh, I sit on, um, sit on a discharge committee for 13. That's basically, um, you know, chapter, well, it's, well, I'll use an old standard cuz nobody's, I don't think anybody's moved to the 19 yet. But it's, it's, uh, you know, basically chapter 11, which is, uh, you know, occupancy, uh, hazard design through, uh, 22. Uh, so that's just one portion of, of 13. When somebody says they set on 13, you, you really need to ask what committee they're on. Right. They may be on hanging bracing and if they're on hanging and bracing and you're asking a hydraulics question, I dunno, he's not the right guy.

Drew Slocum: (01:25):

,

Martin Workman: (01:26):

Right? He could be, but he he could be. But, but, but at least, you know, find out where he is at. Yeah. Uh, I sit on N FPA 11. Um, that's the, that's the foam standard. Um, one, one of the, probably one of the biggest changes for NFPA 11 is NFP 16, which was a standalone standard for foam water sprinkler systems. Um, uh, is moving to 11, actually NFA 11 and part of its scope excluded anything to do with sprinklers. Oh. Um, and just, you know, through the years there was so much duplication from NFP 11 in 16, uh, into 16. It's like, why don't, why don't, uh, and there was, there was a vote and, and, uh, you know, it was overwhelming just to put it into 11. And what happens typically with that is if you were sitting on 16, it just no longer exists. Um, and you can, you can apply to a standard. Um, so, so anybody that was on 16, free to apply to 11, if there's space. Um, and, you know, I'm assuming there's going to be some spots, um, that, uh, that you would still be understand. When

Drew Slocum: (02:31):

Is, uh, when is that occurring? When's, when's that combination?

Martin Workman: (02:35):

Uh, it's actually this cycle. Oh, wow. Wow. Was NFP 11. NFP 11 is in cycle. Um, and, uh, there was, uh, there was a task group set up. Uh, basically it was, it was a one man task group and, uh, a couple of vol volunteered just to, just to kind of review, uh, his work to, to, um, put, uh, you know, to to, to bring the standard together. And he did a real nice job of it. Um, so, so I think that'll go through with some, uh, maybe, maybe minor modifications. Um, so anyway, NFP 11 getting off track here. 30. That's great.

Drew Slocum: (03:11):

30,

Martin Workman: (03:12):

Yep. Yeah, yeah. Which is in cycle, this, this bill around as well. Um, N FPA four 18, which is helipads, um, 4 0 9, which is aircraft hangers, and one with 4 0 9. Um, you're also on, uh, NFPA four 15, which is, uh, uh, air Airport terminals. Um, which everybody always guesses the hazard wrong. They're actually ordinary hazard, not light hazard. Right,

Drew Slocum: (03:42):

Right.

Martin Workman: (03:42):

Uh, I just, just thought I'd throw that in there just a, we're

Drew Slocum: (03:45):

Off. No, that's good. There's a lot of, uh,

Martin Workman: (03:46):

A learning moment for folks. You, yeah. Yeah. And then, and then, uh, uh, NFPA 4 23. So, um, you know, those are the set of the standards that I set on. Um, and they're all, they're all, they're all fire protection related, you know, for, for me, that's my, my value. I don't, you know, .

Drew Slocum: (04:05):

Wow. That's a lot of standards to sit on though. That's a lot of travel meetings for, for sure.

Martin Workman: (04:10):

Yeah. Yeah. At some point, uh, I'm gonna, I'm, now that I'm getting a little older, I'm gonna, I'm gonna transition off. I have, uh, I have great alternates on, on some of these committees. That's great. So, uh, uh, I'm sure, I'm sure people are done. You know, they're, they're tired of hearing from me. They can hear from somebody else for a while. .

Drew Slocum: (04:30):

That's great. Uh, four oh, nine's a, a big one. I know. Uh, you know, that's, you know, the, the aircraft hangers. And it's funny, uh, your, your pal Jim Dooley, or I guess our pal Jim Dooley, just, uh, posted something today about, um, US Navy awarding, uh, a contract, a 20 million contract for, for some facilities in the Pacific, I guess burn burns and McDonald's. Something, uh, must, must be a contract. Um, but

Martin Workman: (04:59):

Right.

Drew Slocum: (05:00):

But yeah. Yeah. But right on the site, there's a great nozzle. The, the on on the post, there's a big great nozzle there. So

Martin Workman: (05:07):

Yeah, the, the, the military's been, um, uh, relatively active and I, I'm gonna say for probably the last 20 years of, of upgrading their facilities, they're, they're receiving new aircraft. Uh, so they have, they have new, uh, kind of service demands, um, for their, for their hangers. And, um, the, the, the great nozzle was actually something that was, that was invented by the US Navy. Uh, a gentleman by the name of Joe Gott, um, Joe Simon Bob tab. Uh, after the NIST testing, uh, there's a great deal of NIST testing to learn about aircraft hangers, cuz there really hadn't been, uh, a lot of science, uh, behind aircraft hangers. Uh, and this testing was, um, in the early nineties, uh, where they tested big hangers and kovic Iceland and, and Honolulu, Hawaii did a lot of testing with detection to see what worked and what didn't.

(06:03)
Did a lot of testing with sprinklers, found out which ones operated and which ones didn't. And that was quite a surprise. Um, and then the best way to apply foam and, uh, through there, through all their kind of development and findings, um, you know, they, they, they, what they really wanted was to apply foam at the floor, cuz that's where the spill was at. So they, they had this idea and, um, probably one of the luckier moments of my life, you've mentioned a gentleman by the name of Jim Dooley. Uh, we were, we were meeting with the US Navy and I'm sure we were gonna tell them about deluge valves or something of that nature. And we met with, uh, uh, Mr. Joe got, and he explained what he was looking at and I kind of, kind of drew something and said, well, you know, what about that?

(06:55)
And wow. He said, yeah, that looks pretty good. So this all went away though. Um, cuz they, they had, they had engaged, uh, a firm to develop something for 'em. So it's like, oh, okay. Uh, and I mean, a professional engineering firm, and, you know, at the end of the day, they could, they could get something, but it wasn't, it wasn't a manufacturer, uh, product. And we just happened to be lucky. They, they had a little bit of money and we're talking, very little money left, but said, Hey, could, and they contacted a gentleman here at Viking, uh, and said, could you could, could you go with this idea and developed something? And, um, you know, one of the fellows that developed, it's still at Viking. Oh wow. . Um, and he was a young guy at the time, but here we go, we've got this product.

(07:41)
And they said, well, good, we want to go test the UL with it. And all we had were plastic prototypes. Huh. So, so, so some of the pressure limitations when we were doing the testing and the testing was really, could it spread foam over an area and not only could it spread foam, what happened if it was, if they were obstructed? So, so we were working on different pressures, flows, and literally obstructions in front of the nozzles. And it was a, um, two days of testing. Uh, we built, um, kinda a raised platform. Um, we did, and the Navy paid for it. We just came down with a, a bunch of foam and stuff. And, um, so after we had the, the, the nozzle spacing set, uh, which was 50 foot on center, that was, you know, they, they felt that was, um, you know, they wouldn't be spending too much on drainage, but it would be adequate.

(08:30)
So we had to, we had to cover that gap. And what we found is if we got any farther apart than 25 foot within a trench, obstructions became an issue. But if you were 25 foot on center, you could literally park over top of one of 'em. Wow. And it really didn't matter. You just built up back pressure around the other ones and it would cover it. And, um, during the time that we were doing it, we were, we had a kind of a trailer, um, set up to where, you know, we could, we could operate, um, the system. Uh, we did it through a, through a flow control valve that had some regulating trim on it. And we were literally opening and closing the valve through a, through an emergency release.

(09:10)
Wow. It was funny cause the guys from the Navy walked over and they said, that's pretty cool. Oh yeah. It's, well, we use it here and there, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, well, we'd like to use it. Okay. So we just helped them. Yeah. You know, write a standard around that type of valve. There's, there's other valves that do it. Ours, you know, obviously we, we've, uh, we provided quite a few of them, uh, to the military. But the idea is if they have an inadvertent operation and with low expansion foam, it's not quite as, um, not quite the event that high expansion foam is, but Oh, yeah. Um, if they, if they have an activation, you can push on this stop button. I always called it a post operation Abort. Yep. Um, but the, uh, but the Navy didn't like that. And I said, it's really just a stop button, Martin. Okay. It's probably just a stop button . Uh, but it, but it stops the foam and, you know, and allows somebody to, you know, take care of maybe what a, what the problem is or because it's a dead man abort if there's a real fire and somebody's, you know, trying to, it was a case of arson, sooner or later you'd let go of that button.

Drew Slocum: (10:15):

Oh yeah, you gotta activate it.

Martin Workman: (10:17):

Mm-hmm. . So yeah. So that's kind of how the development of the, the great nozzle came along. And, um, you know, it's something that, uh, you know, the, you know, we provide, uh, you know, you know, through the military, which is, which is great. Uh, and also, um, you know, other, you know, private, oh, call

Drew Slocum: (10:38):

Public airlines. You know what? Private airlines, it's interesting, it's interesting. It's not used in more the, you know, I, I see it definitely very beneficial in, in the Navy and the government aspect. But, you know, I've been involved in a few foam systems where accidental discharge, you know, without a, an abort switch, without a, an an off style valve, you know, you're ruining a a 25 million plane. Like, you think that that would go into some of the design of, you know, high expansion's, great at putting out fires. But I mean, if, if you can get, uh, a very similar protection or better protection, uh, with the, the risk being a lot less, you think that would be, uh, used more, you know?

Martin Workman: (11:21):

Well, uh, part of it is, uh, it's, it's, it's looked at somewhat exotic because we don't, uh, you know, in our normal day in and day out activities, we don't, we don't think of systems supplying water or foam, um, as any kind of shutoff. Um, you know, we, we buy fire pumps that, that run till their destruction. You know, we do things like, we have these long, long water supplies. Um, so I, I think in most cases it's, it's one, um, it's, it's not in the norm. And secondly, it's, it's somewhat unknown that it can be done. Right. Um, you know, so I, I think that's where, but when, you know, obviously, um, I I I almost think it's, it's almost like a word of mouth thing. If somebody did it on one hanger, they go, Hey, that's really neat. Can do you guys want it?

(12:11)
And, and that's sometimes that's been in introduced to us, uh, that way where somebody's called and, you know, it could be a consulting engineer or maybe even an end users. Do you have one of those systems that Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, we do. Let me show you how it works and things of that nature. So, but um, yeah, so I, I guess we, we kinda went a, a couple of different directions here. Uh, when we, when we do move to foam, one of the things that I, I at least want to get out is, um, with all the environmental, um, conversation about foam today. Um, you know, we, we definitely want people to be, um, you know, conscious of, you know, how they're using it. Uh, you know, in the old days people used to do commissioning tests and, you know, have fields full of foam and take photos and wasn't that great.

(13:04)
Uh, we have to be a lot more responsible about it today and capturing it. Yeah. The majority of the majority of foam that was ever put on the ground was through, through, uh, you know, basically testing where Right. Or training. It was through training. And, uh, and everybody kind of knows that. I mean, there's a high density usually around airports, but they do a lot of crash and roll testing. Yep. I mean, , so, I mean, um, so, so it's important to just be, uh, very responsible about it. Um, there's methods of, of doing clean proportioning, uh, to where you really, the only time you use foam is in a fire. And, uh, and that's really when it, when it should be used. Right. So I just kind of wanted to get that out. I know that, uh, uh, some, some people are very sensitive to it, other people aren't aware that there, there could be an issue. Um, and, and it can affect, you know, it can affect your, your job costs. If you're bid a job and you don't figure on capturing all this foam discharge, it's expensive to discharge. It's no longer the case of just putting it over on the gravel field or, or, or, well, at least it shouldn't be. I don't think so. .

Drew Slocum: (14:13):

Right, right. Yeah. I, I remember designing some, some diesel foam generator backups and, and New York City, and, you know, after that test, you would have to get that foam out from the 20th floor. So how do you do that? You know, how do you, how do you get all that foam discharge out of there? So, you know, I worked with some engineers to put in even, you know, dedicated drain risers for that. Um, you know, it was, you know, the, the discharge and testing a foam is, it's, it's been a hot topic with, you know, up, up in upstate New York, there was a, uh, Newburg, New York, uh, Stewart Airbase up there. They're being, I think the government's being sued because of all the foam testing they did at that base, um, ended up getting into the water supply. And I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of different directions that let litigations going, but it it's definitely in the news and it's being highlighted. So

Martin Workman: (15:14):

Yeah. And it's, it's really just, it's just more of an awareness thing. Um, and a a lot of times foam is exotic to, to, to a lot of folks, they've never done it before. They come up with a project, uh, with it. There's just a a lot of things to, to know. Um, and I couldn't encourage people more to call y you know, the, the, the phone provider that they're using. Um, there's, there's several throughout the us. Uh, and they're, they're, they're more than helpful in telling you, you know, the how to do things, um, and some of the special things that you need on a job, um, that maybe you wouldn't normally use. Um, so, you know, in that case, I just, you know, just kind of want to throw that out there. Um, but, uh, that's kind of, kind of, kind of where we're at with that product. I wanted to just kind give you the full history

Drew Slocum: (16:03):

. Is there, is there anything else on the Viking side? I know you have a lot of different, different hats is I want to give you a chance to, I know the, the heli heliport nozzle just came out. If there's anything else you wanna chat about, um, Vikings always constantly coming out things.

Martin Workman: (16:18):

So yeah, the, the, the pad nozzles is, is basically, you know, the great nozzle where we've, uh, developed a different receiver to actually place, place a nozzle in the center of a, uh, of a, of a helipad. Normally what we wanna do is we wanna, um, install on the perimeter and just, you know, discharge the foam into the, uh, into the helipad. But sometimes the helipads get so large, um, you know, the distance is too great, so you, so you literally have to install something, um, within the, uh, helipad. And, uh, and that was something that we, uh, we released it earlier in the year, and it was kind of something that was bubbling at Viking for, for, for quite a few, few years thinking about doing it. Just, we didn't really didn't have time. So, um, Bob Kun, who's our, uh, home product manager, uh, it was kind of his first, first charge.

(17:10)
His first effort was to, uh, to bring that to market and, uh, happened pretty quick. I was happy about that. Uh, and, uh, it, it just, it just kind of, it solves some problems, uh, in, in helipads because the, the way they're being protected today, if you follow the FAA rules, it's, it's pretty difficult to, to meet everything, um, with anything above the plane of the, uh, the helipads. So, huh uh, it kind of knocks out oscillating monitors. Um, a lot of folks have been using Elkhart nozzles for years. Oh. Those are usually piped away from the away from the pad and, and discharging in. And, um, and it, it is, there's just, uh, there's some difficulties with helipads that you wouldn't normally encounter. Uh, interesting. And so, so this kind of, this kind of, um, kind of solve a real Ill, um, but there's gotta be, you gotta do future planning for it, you know, you've gotta know that you're gonna put one in it .

Drew Slocum: (18:09):

Right, right.

Martin Workman: (18:10):

Yeah. Yeah. You can't come up at the last minute. It's like, it's like adding a PIV after the underground's buried, huh? . We gotta we gotta dig it back up, huh?

Drew Slocum: (18:22):

Get the excavator out. Um, all right. Any, anything else? Uh, I mean, I, I, we could go off in the sprinkler direction, maybe do another podcast with somebody else, or, or yourself from Viking, but, uh, if you wanna plug anything, go away, you know.

Martin Workman: (18:39):

No, no. We should, we should probably just leave it on point here. Uh, if we, if we have another op opportunity to, to, uh, to join your podcast, then, uh, then we can, uh, we can talk about some sprinkler developments. Um, you know, basically the industry's working on, um, and you know, that, that we're obviously participating in. But, uh, but today we should probably leave it to like, tunnels and transportation and specialty valves and things of that nature.

Drew Slocum: (19:06):

Great. Great. Well, uh, before we end here, I I, I've been doing this, the first few podcasts, uh, is something called the, uh, quick response round. And essentially it's just asking you a few, uh, lightning round questions, I guess, and just, uh, just kind of your opinions on a few things. Just quick answer. Um, and we'll, uh, we'll get kicking here, so,

Martin Workman: (19:31):

Okay.

Drew Slocum: (19:31):

Okay. Um, travel to Europe or Asia, what do you prefer?

Martin Workman: (19:38):

Ah, boy, that's a tough one. , uh, um, uh, probably Europe. It's, uh, it's, it's only an eight hour flight. ,

Drew Slocum: (19:48):

Ah, . Good, good reason. I'm sure, um, some, somebody mentioned, uh, uh, a trip to South Africa, and if you would ever go back to South Africa.

Martin Workman: (20:01):

Um, actually I've been there, I've been there three times. One time they didn't let me into the country. I probably believe that's the story you're talking about. I

Drew Slocum: (20:08):

Didn't,

Martin Workman: (20:08):

Yeah, I, I was, I was, I was, uh, a relatively naive traveler, I guess, and didn't know that I needed two blank pages facing each other to have the, the Visa sticker applied, uh, that, that time to fly to South Africa. So I flew to South Africa, I was on the ground for 30 minutes. They put me in the same airplane, in the same seat, and flew me back to Amsterdam, which flew me back to Detroit. Oh, no, not to Grand Rapids. Not to Grand Rapids where I live, but to Detroit. So then I had to rent a car. I get home and then, uh, you know, basically, um, kind of wonder what happened for the last three or four days, . But, uh, but I, but I, but I've been there since. And the people are very friendly, very nice. Um, it's always disappointing not to, not to make your appointment. So that, that's one of those that probably bothers me more, more for not making the appointment than, uh, than the wasted weekend of travel .

Drew Slocum: (21:06):

Right, right. Yeah. Uh, that's funny. Um, uh, deep sea fishing or fishing in Lake Michigan,

Martin Workman: (21:16):

Uh, for me, lake Michigan. Cause if you fall in the water, you can drink it. .

Drew Slocum: (21:23):

All right. All right. Um, couple more here. Uh, founders Bells or Bud Light?

Martin Workman: (21:33):

Uh, probably Bud Light.

Drew Slocum: (21:34):

Bud Light. Okay. All right.

Martin Workman: (21:36):

Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, uh, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, the, those, the others are okay. But I'm only good for about one of those , you know, . I'm more, more of a Coors Light guy that, that, that I can really work the quantity up. So ,

Drew Slocum: (21:53):

You can gauge how many you can have . That's right. Uh, one more here. Um, and I'll, I'll get in on a future podcast with this, uh, nitrogen or compressed air. I know it's all, it's gonna be, it depends, but I know there's a big, uh, well discussion that

Martin Workman: (22:12):

Not, well, today, there's, today there's three, three choices in drying or corrosion. Oh. The other one they've got, they've got a dry air pack, which, uh, I've always been a big supporter of that nitrogen, uh, which is, you know, it's been on, you know, been in the market now probably for about seven years. Um, and, uh, and the, the guys that manufacture have made some great strides in, in education. Uh, there's definitely a place for that. And then, um, and recently, last year and a half or so, two years, uh, a vacuum system, and they're all aimed at corrosion. Um, and they, they all have, they, they all, they're all real strong products. Um, I would, I would say I, I'm not sure that I, I have a preference. I, I do have applications. I have application preference, so, so I'm not a guy that says, oh, I hate nitrogen, or I hate dry air packs, or I hate vacuum.

(23:09)
I'd say I love dry air packs in a freezer. There's no reason ever to use nitrogen. Um, I, you know, I look at nitrogen in areas like, um, hot and cold aisles and server rooms. It's like, you know, that's a perfect application for it. High value, um, you know, high probability of moisture. The way the generator guys have set it up to where it's always venting, it's always drying. Um, if you have a correctly installed system, it really solves a problem. And then, you know, then we have, we have vacuum, which, which is, um, kind of an anywhere you want it type of system. Um, you know, with the exception that, that you have limitations on the types of sprinklers. Currently there's a K 25 upright that's approved for it. Um, then we just passed the approval for K five six and K 8.0. So, so, so it does have its limitations as far as, uh, product choice. So, so again, there's, you know, I, as far as which one I like the best, it depends, depends on what I'm looking at, you know, , so, right. So, and they're all, they're all strong products. I, uh, I don't really have anything super negative to say about it. I try to dispel, there's a few myths about each one, and I try to just dispel 'em, um, you know, maybe, maybe at the manufacturer's, uh, chagrin. But, um, you know, they, they, they're, they're all very beneficial.

Drew Slocum: (24:32):

No, no, I think that's, uh, I would love to get in, in deep with that more from, uh, either have, obviously the professionals in, uh, the manufacturer of those, or somebody that's kind of in the middle of all, all three of those. So, um, yeah, it's great. Well, uh, Martin, I appreciate the time. This has been great. I know we, uh, we definitely went a little long and we kind of covered two topics on tunnels and then even on the, the foam side of things. So it was, it was great. And I definitely appreciate you being on.

Martin Workman: (25:04):

Okay. Well, hey, thanks for having me, drew. And, uh, you know, let me, let me know when, uh, when you need me again, buddy.

Drew Slocum: (25:10):

Yeah, sounds good.

Martin Workman: (25:11):

Okay. Thanks a lot.

Drew Slocum: (25:13):

Take care. That does it for episode six of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. I really want to thank Martin Workman. Martin has been a mentor to me in the industry for years, and I'm sure he will for years to come. And I want to thank everybody out there for tuning in and supporting the Fire Protection Podcast. We're really looking forward to doing more interviews like this. So please follow us on all the social media channels and see you soon.