Transportation Fire Protection - Martin Workman - Part 1

EP4 - Drew talks with Martin Workman, VP of Product Management at Viking, about his involvement in tunnel fire protection. Lately the US and other parts of the world have seen an increase in fire protection in commuter tunnels. Martin also explains his involvement on a variety of NFPA committees. Foam fire protection is discussed in part 2 of the interview. Recently there have been some changes to foam protection in NFPA and with a bunch of new products.

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode four of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, my guest is Martin Workman of the Viking Corporation. Martin is the head of product development at Viking, as well as a bunch of other hats that he wears. He sits on multiple N F P A committees, travels throughout the world. I never know where he is half the time. So, great conversation with Martin. Uh, we get into transportation, fire protection, um, specifically on the tunnel fire protection side. And we've seen some big projects come out, uh, on that side of the industry. The second half of the podcast is dedicated to the foam and, uh, different things going on in some of the N fpa, uh, foam committees and just new products on the foam side. Hope you enjoy the podcast, and please subscribe.

(01:03)
Yeah. Episode four here of the Fire Protection Podcast. Real excited to have, uh, one of the leaders in the industry, uh, Martin Workman from Viking, uh, on the line here. And, uh, want to chat a little bit with him about what Viking and just in general, what the, what the industry's doing on, on, uh, transportation, fire protection. Uh, you'll pro we'll probably go in a lot different directions with the, with the conversation, but, uh, I knew, I knew, uh, I've known Martin for years, even before I worked at Viking, um, for the four years I was there. So he's been a big mentor to me in the market. And, uh, yeah. Welcome Martin.

Martin Workman: (01:44):

Well, thanks Drew. Uh, nice being with you this morning.

Drew Slocum: (01:47):

Yeah, yeah. This is, uh, this is an interesting new, uh, avenue to get, get some information out to the, to the masses. So, uh, yeah, just try to keep it informal and, um, yeah, learn a little bit more about you and what Viking's doing, kind of, you know, I, I've seen over the last, you know, even when I was at Viking a few years back, transportation, fire protection seems to be like a kind of a, a hot topic. And I, I don't know where that stems from. Um, you know, we worked on a, you know, while I was there, we worked on a lot of tunnel projects. I know you guys were continuing to come out with new innovations, but, um, you know, before we get into that, what you wanna give a little background about yourself at Viking and Oh, and before that?

Martin Workman: (02:35):

Sure. Yeah, I can give you the quick 1 0 1. Uh, I got into the sprinkler trade in 1984. Started out as a, a helper. Uh, moved up through the apprenticeship, became a journeyman, moved into the office, did design and estimating, uh, owned a little piece of the rock. Um, had a two year non-compete clause, um, and, uh, wanted to move. And the only place I could move with, uh, without any litigation was Viking. So I was gonna be at Viking for two years, and that was 22 years ago, . Uh, so, uh, so, uh, uh, I've been, uh, and I kind of moved up, uh, through Viking being the, you know, the, the, the tech guy answering the phone, telling you if we painted a sprinkler white or not, uh, through, uh, through product management, uh, you know, r d involvement, uh, you know, trade association and committee involvement, uh, you know, just through the, through the years. So today I do, uh, uh, business development, product management, and, um, you know, just took on, uh, our suppression or special hazard systems as well. So,

Drew Slocum: (03:39):

Oh,

Martin Workman: (03:39):

Wow. That's, so that's kinda kind of what I've got going on. Um, you know, as far as Viking, you know, uh, you know, still a, still a growing company and, you know, still, uh, still out there fighting every day. So, you know, just like, uh, everyone else in the trade, so

Drew Slocum: (03:57):

. Yeah, I know, uh, you, you know, you, you've taken on a lot of different hats at Viking even while I was there and after, I know there's a different transition in some of the business development realm. Uh, but, and every time all the listeners out there, every, every time I try getting ahold of, uh, of Martin, he's, he's either in Asia, Europe, uh, , Australia. I dunno, I dunno where you're at. I, you know, the ringtone that comes in, you know, I know you're overseas at some point, so.

Martin Workman: (04:29):

Yeah. Well, it, it, it, it, it does happen. But it's funny, drew, you made a, you made a comment on, you know, really what's the, you know, what's the driving force behind, uh, you know, the level of fire protection that we're seeing in, in, in, especially in transportation? And, you know, I, I, I truly think a lot of this has to do with, with national security, not just our domestic national security, but, but also internationally, um, just with some of the activities or, um, situations that are going on, right? Our, our, our project involvements have, have typically been, and, and you think about it, it's, it's, it's passenger safety, um, right. You know, we, we talk about protecting a tunnel, but, you know, if it, if it was a tunnel of, you know, uh, uh, just train car full of dirt, nobody, nobody would really probably care that much about it. But, uh, uh, we, we do have, we do have exposures today. Um, and then, then we talk about the different levels of protection that, that, that, that occur in a tunnel. Um, and I think you've seen that with some of the projects that you've been involved in.

Drew Slocum: (05:42):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's anything from car, I mean, is it, is it all, like you said, is it, is it more on the, uh, commuter transportation you're seeing it, or like you said, the, the, the train protection, you know, unless it's a commuter train, I could see that that potentially happen, but I, you know, we, we saw it in New York, you know, and some of the other projects that we worked on, it was, uh, all over the us these, has it happened globally as well, or is it mainly domestic?

Martin Workman: (06:13):

Uh, well, it's, it, it truly is global. Um, you know, in my time at Viking, any of the protection of tunnels was not happening in the us It was all, it was all an international effort. Um, you know, we've been involved in a lot of tunnels in, you know, New Zealand, Australia, some in Europe, some in Asia, uh, and, you know, obviously they're drilling through mountains and, and things of that nature. Um, and they, and they have these incredible, these incredible tunnels, um, where a lot of our tunnel protection is, you know, in, in, in high density, you know, metropolitan areas. Um, all the ones that I can think of, there's only, there's only a couple that I can think of that would, I would consider somewhat remote, but they, they, they carry a lot of traffic.

Drew Slocum: (07:04):

Right.

Martin Workman: (07:04):

Um, and, and, and remote is in the eye of the beholder. I mean, you know, downtown Seattle is not exactly remote. No. Uh, the Eisenhower Johnson tunnel out in Colorado, somebody might go, well, that's remote. It's like, not with the density of traffic that goes through these, through these

Drew Slocum: (07:21):

Tunnel. Yeah. Was was that the, uh, was that the Colorado tunnel that, that was just on the news where, what it put out a car fire? Was that the same one?

Martin Workman: (07:30):

Uh, you know what, I'm not sure. I've been out of the country for a few weeks, so Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (07:34):

Well,

Martin Workman: (07:34):

I just had,

Drew Slocum: (07:35):

Yeah, there, there was a big news story of, uh, I think it wa it might have been that tunnel. I'll have to, I'll have to check the sources, but there was a big tunnel in Colorado that had a, um, you know, I think it was just a regular deluge system, uh, water protection, and it put out a car fire. So it got, it got pretty, it got national news.

Martin Workman: (07:54):

Yeah. Well, I, I would assume that's the one, uh, that was quite a, that was quite a, quite a project. The, um, you know, contract, there was, there was a lot of, there was a lot of logistical efforts, um, because it was a working tunnel. And in that case, they didn't shut the tunnel down while they were, um, installing the, the, the piping network, that one was somewhat unique that it had a, it actually had a, um, if you wanna call it an attic area. So there was the, there was the flat ceiling of the tunnel, and then above it, there was, um, about, I'm gonna, I'm taking this from memory, but about 20 feet. Wow. So there was quite a bit of room above that. So, you know, the contractor was literally pouring through concrete and trying to catch the, you know, I mean the, the, the biggest was, you know, what, what if you drop?

(08:47)
What if, what if you drop one of those coolers of concrete on a car or Right. Or a person. So, so logistically that one was difficult as far the, you know, system sizes, they were deluge systems, right. They were act, you know, activated through a SCADA system, so on and off, um, um, you know, through a, through a camera network at a, at a control tower, um, you know, and the, the zones weren't particularly that large, so the systems weren't that big. Um, but they were designed for, you know, multiple zones to operate, and that, and that's obviously for a running fire, um, you know, that you've got the water supply for it. And, and, and those, those systems were, you know, you utilize an on off type valve, um, you know, which, which is, which is pretty much the norm because, you know, it's, uh, the testing has been done in tunnels. Um, detection. Detection has a tough time working. Sure. Cameras seem to work the best. Okay. Um,

Drew Slocum: (09:48):

Now is that manual, is that manual camera, or is that one of those automated cameras where it detects a fire?

Martin Workman: (09:54):

Uh, in this case, I believe it was, uh, it was a person at a control center looking through a camera, you know, viewing down a zone.

Drew Slocum: (10:03):

Wow. Wow.

Martin Workman: (10:05):

So, and, and that's, and that's not abnormal. Some of the other tunnel projects that, uh, we were involved in and unfor, well, unfortunately, unfortunately, on the, on the Johnson Eisenhower tunnel, we, we didn't have any involvement. Of course, we knew about the project, it was as it was in its bid stages. Um, but, um, you know, the in general, that's, that's typically what you're finding Yeah. Is it's, it's a, it's a manual type thing. Um, you know, those, the boots on the ground kind of thing. Right. So that somebody can make a decision when it's on and off. So, yeah.

Drew Slocum: (10:41):

Yeah.

Martin Workman: (10:43):

And those have been the challenges. And then not only that, how do we, you know, the, there's, there's several types of tunnels constructed. Um, some are bored, and when they're bored, they're typically skinned out. Um, so hanging to the structure sometimes can be, um, a little more exacting than what we're used to is sprinkler guys, rather than, you know, looking up and drilling an anchor and, you know, dropping a hanger ring. We, you know, you have to, you have to be a little more attention, you know, pay a little more attention to where these joints come together and how much weight you can hang to the wall. Um, you know, a lot of these tunnel projects are, are requesting kind of, uh, somewhat of like an integrated valve package where two valves come out in a cabinet and, uh, and they're, then they're always custom. Mm-hmm. , they, they look the same. They're kind of described the same, but every, every, every project has a, you know, has some unique requirement that wasn't the same as the last one. We're working on a project down in, um, you know, down in the mid-Atlantic region, and, and, you know, they want everything listed and in stainless steel that would go into this cabinet. Oh,

Drew Slocum: (11:58):

Wow.

Martin Workman: (11:59):

And the problem is that those two don't always, no, those two don't always go together. Right. Um, and, and, you know, they, they want the stainless steel due to corrosion. Uh, they want the listing. Oh. And then the third requirement, all domestic, so, right. So, so, so there's a triple whammy for you, .

Drew Slocum: (12:20):

Yeah.

Martin Workman: (12:20):

Yeah. Um, um, but, uh, so, so, so those are some of the challenges that, you know, you know, a contractor looking at these projects you're gonna look at and go, okay, uh, we've, uh, I've seen projects where, uh, people have installed the anchors that they use day in and day out, but they weren't domestic, so they had to redrill every anchor.

Drew Slocum: (12:43):

Oh, gosh. Wow.

Martin Workman: (12:45):

Um, and, and that's, and, and unfortunately, uh, it's the requirement, either that or they're gonna, they're gonna pull a lot of your contract away from you. Um, uh, and sometimes they don't even give you that choice. You will install these anchors. Um, and, uh, and, and not because anybody did it maliciously, you know, how many times have you, you know, you picked something up and either thought it was made in the US or didn't care, or didn't know that that, that there was one made in the us. Right. I mean, it's, uh, so, so the, what I would call from, um, from a pro project management standpoint of these kind of projects you typically need, you need to add administration that sometimes we don't always have in contracting. Right. Where, where you do, you almost have a contract officer making sure that all this, uh, information required is delivered and that, you know, that when you're purchasing something, it's, it's, it's the correct thing. Because if you are not checking it, somebody else will. Uh, and that, and that can really, you know, that can, that can have a real negative impact on the bottom line.

Drew Slocum: (14:00):

Yeah. I know when we worked on that project in, in New York, it was, you know, you know, buy America, buy American, is it assembled in the US or all do all the parts need to come in, you know, uh, from the us. So it, it gets very complicated, and you're right. As a contractor, if you're not prepared for that in the, in the bidding stage, you could, you could really be hurt by that

Martin Workman: (14:24):

Stage. Yeah. Yeah. And looking through it and in, and in general, and, and what I've found anyway, that there's, there's, uh, there, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of aids out there to, uh, to help a lot of times, you know, simply, and, and we're all guilty of this, if you go to Google and say, what is the By America Act? Um, there's, there's a lot of help through the government to, to help you understand what it is. Um, and they also tell you things like, um, small fasteners and what they might mean is like a, you know, a screw and a component because it's metal, because it's Ferris metal, it falls under that act that, that, you know, a lot of times you can, you can ask for, um, if you wanna call it a variance or, you know, they'll, they'll relent on some of those things because once it's, it's odd, it's, it's hard to find some screws and bolts that are, that are manufactured in the US

(15:21)
Yeah. And they've kinda like, okay, so that's, that's not the whole content. It's, uh, very small portion of it, but, but there isn't a rule on it. Um, or if there is a rule, it's, it's, it's newly made. This is usually project to project. So, so you also have somebody executing that act for the project That's the, you know, he's kind of the overseer. Right. You know, are you gonna allow, are you gonna allow horn made bolts, uh, in a valve? And if the answer is no, well, we better go find some ones made here. Yeah. Right. Or set up a screw machine. So,

Drew Slocum: (15:54):

Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting when you get into that and, uh, some of those public work jobs with, with those coming up the last few years. So,

Martin Workman: (16:03):

You know, one of, one of the things that, that, that I find interesting on, on tunnel projects is the, um, I, I would say the range of design that we find in them, um, I've seen where, uh, in some, uh, what I would call just passenger car tunnels where you're never gonna have a, a tanker truck come through or, or any hazardous goods, uh, where they'll design it for a 0.2, um, over the area. They're w however, right. But, but still a 0.2 utilizing extended coverage hats really ordinary. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that a couple of different times. Um, and, uh, then, then we go to the very far extreme to where, um, if there's going to be dangerous goods, um, you know, being transported through the tunnel, where you'll have, you know, a full blown, um, deluge system at a relatively higher density. Usually it's 0.3 or 0.25 or 0.3. Uh, and, and then the addition of foam if needed.

Drew Slocum: (17:05):

Huh? If needed. What, what does, what does that mean? Yeah, I've seen, you know, I worked, when I was at Tyco, I remember being involved in some of the Seattle tunnel. Um, what do you mean, if needed on the, I think they had foam out there in that one.

Martin Workman: (17:20):

Um, there's the, the, if needed is, is literally the option to foam, you know, so you've got your, so you say you have a fire, whatever, uh, in a tunnel, and I don't know what it is, it's a fire, but they turn on the water and they, they, you know, and, and they would be obviously somewhat some level of training that if it turned into a, into a pool fire and the water's not doing anything. Uh, and it, and it, and it depends on the of drainage that you have in an area. Um, you know, there's some, there's, there's a few factors that go into when do we foam a tunnel, but usually it's, uh, the, the most obvious is, you know, that you're gonna be transporting flammable liquid to it.

Drew Slocum: (18:02):

Right. Right.

Martin Workman: (18:03):

Um, and then normally what you use is an alcohol resistant, a Triple F, because it's, um, you know, for lack of a better term, it's kind of the roofer's card. It will, it will, uh, extinguish, you know, the, the, the whole gamut of FLA liquid,

Drew Slocum: (18:18):

Right?

Martin Workman: (18:18):

Yep. Um, so, so you could apply that and then, then add foam. And depending on how it's designed, usually it's a, it's a remote foam pump, and there's a foam there. You know, there's a, there's a foam Maine, just like a water Maine, uh, and you know, there's controls to allow foam down that water stream.

Drew Slocum: (18:37):

So, wow.

Martin Workman: (18:39):

So, so there's, there's the, you know, like I say, I, I find it fascinating, you know, the, the gambit of design. It isn't, um, it isn't quite as cookie cutter, you know, it isn't isn't like walking into a 45 foot warehouse with double row racks and styrofoam cups. Yeah. You know, going, I know what, I know what I need to do, cuz it's prescriptive. Um, so there's, there's, if you're looking at tunnel projects, you, you literally wanna, um, you, you want to study the specifications. Um, there's not gonna be a lot of references to a, to a go-to book. Right. Um, like a lot of specifications, if you're, if you're bidding an aircraft hanger or, you know, or a warehouse or a mall, it's pretty, it's pretty simple. They're gonna turn you back to an nfpa, a standard. Uh, if it's sprinklers, obviously thirteens gonna be one of 'em.

(19:33)
But if there's something deeper, uh, it might be, you know, could be NFP 30, it could be NFP 4 0 9, but it, but literally they're, they're a little more prescriptive. This isn't gonna be that way. Somebody has made a, a decision through, through some engineering judgment of, of how this tunnel's gonna be protected. Um, and, and that's why I say, you really want to pay attention to specifications, go to as many pre-bid meetings as you can. Uh, so you kinda get a feel of what they're looking for and it'll make the job a lot more successful for you. Cause you don't wanna be halfway through a job going, oh no, they wanted, they wanted foam added to this, you know? Yeah, yeah,

Drew Slocum: (20:14):

Yeah. I mean, even better. Why, why not work with a manufacturer that sits on some of these committees? And is heavily involved in it, right?

Martin Workman: (20:24):

Well, in, in most cases, depending on the specialty of the tunnel, you, you would be working with a manufacturer, um, uh, one way or the other. Either, either the manufacturer has worked to, to have their products specified. That's, you know, when, you know, obviously you worked at Tyco, that was something that you did before you came to Viking. When you came to Viking, you did the same thing. Something I do, uh, to where, uh, in, in many cases the, the manufacturer isn't just hawking their goods. They're, they're working on solving a problem with the, um, call it the developer or the, or the builder. Um, and it could be the shape of a cabinet, it could be the size of a valve, it could be a specialty nozzle or sprinkler. Um, so, so you're, you're, you're right, A lot of times the manufacturer's heavily involved. Um, but in a, a lot of times in a very, um, we're all capitalist at heart, but kind of in a puristic manner saying, this is a weird tunnel. It's shaped this way. We just, you know, so, uh, um, so it's not a bad idea, uh, to obviously work, work with the manufacturer. Um, and they, they may have a lot more answers during the bid stage, uh, than, because sometimes specifications are written kind of vague or, I don't know, vagues are Right. Well, vagues a pretty good word.

Drew Slocum: (21:44):

Yeah, yeah, right. You're right.

Martin Workman: (21:46):

We'll stay with vague . Um, but, uh, but yeah, I mean that's, that's what we're seeing today. If you were to, um, study the, the quantity of tunnels being built in the US or dollar value for tunnels, or not in the US but around the world, um, the highest, uh, dollar value is in the United States.

Drew Slocum: (22:09):

Wow.

Martin Workman: (22:09):

Uh, which, which I found somewhat surprising. Um, the, um, you know, in the past we've always kinda looked at Europe, um, uh, and really mostly Europe. We really didn't look towards Asia for tunnel protection. Um, but, uh, but today it's in the US and there's, uh, a lot of these projects are not being, they're not protected tunnels. Uh, a lot of, cuz when you, when you get the wad of tunnel, you've really gotta kinda, um, filter through it. Uh, you know, a tunnel through the mountain that nobody's ever gonna see, uh, probably isn't gonna get protected.

Drew Slocum: (22:46):

Right. Yeah, yeah. If it's not on a main interstate or you get the traffic. Sure.

Martin Workman: (22:51):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (22:52):

Yeah. It's very, very interesting. I, you know, it's, it's kind of a niche market and, and fire protections probably not too, too many contractors working on it, but if, if you do, um, you know, it could be, uh, very lucrative or very hurt, you know, hurtful, I guess if, if you don't bid it correctly.

Martin Workman: (23:11):

Yeah. And I, and I think what you'll find is in, and you know, I kind of agree with that. There's, there's some, there's some contractors that, that are suited, better suited to do, uh, these type of projects than others. No different than where some contractors just, you know, I don't like doing government work because of all the paperwork and, and the regulation. Uh, and, and this probably wouldn't be their type of work, uh, where other, other companies, um, you know, do these type of projects with ease. Um, because they, like I said, it's usually because they have the administration staff to do it. It's, it's a little hard to do it if you're running real lean because you literally need another body

Drew Slocum: (23:52):

Right. To, to handle all the logistics and the admin stuff. Wow. Well, yeah, a lot, lot more than I actually knew about. I, I, you know, the fire tunnel fire protection. I didn't know it was a security as much of a security issue, but that, that totally makes sense. Now, this has been part one of episode four of the Fire Protection podcast. We ended up splitting this into two episodes just because it went a little long. Plus we discussed two different topics with Martin. Uh, tunnel fire protection is first, the next part will be all on, uh, phone protection. So, uh, yeah, please tune in and see you again next time.