Episode 16 - The Eliminator

IntroductionsWhy does the extinguisher market needs to change?Who are the main stakeholders in the process?What are the next steps for The Eliminator?Quick Response Round

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:07):

This is episode 16 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Spec Point. Today, my guests are from the Russo Eliminator Fire Extinguisher Company. It's a new product to the extinguisher market to really, uh, hopefully change some, uh, ideas in the fire extinguisher world. It's, uh, it's going against all manufacturers out there. It's a different product, uh, trying to think of different ways to, to produce a fire extinguisher to go to market. I really like what they're doing. Um, so we get into it about how they came to market, what their goals are. Um, so really excited to have them on because there hasn't been a really big innovation in the fire extinguisher world and probably 50, 50 plus years. So they're, they're really trying. Um, I'll see them again at here at naed, uh, in the next, uh, couple months. Uh, inspect point will be at naed, uh, so, we'll, so will Russo eliminator.

(01:09)
So they're, they're debuting it this year. Sore. Really excited, uh, for 2020 with the Fire Protection Podcast. A lot of, uh, good ideas trying to get, uh, more listeners obviously. So please subscribe. Uh, please, please pass the word along. Uh, today's podcast actually came from, from Chris Logan of the Fire Sprinkler Podcast. He, uh, he wanted to get, uh, this new product out there, and it thought it was a good way. Um, so thank, thank you again, Chris. Please, uh, tune into his podcast and, uh, yeah, really excited for 2020. So stay tuned and subscribe. Just want to give a quick update on the inspect point, uh, side of things. Uh, 2020 is gonna be a breakout year, another breakout year for us here at Inspect Point. Uh, a lot of cool initiatives, one being our, our big service and work order module that's coming out in, uh, early quarter two within the platform.

(02:04)
So we're really excited about that. It will transform our platform to not only include inspections and the proposal sales features that we've had for, for six to nine months. On that side, uh, it's gonna flow into the service and work order section. So not only will be able to do inspections, you'll be able to dispatch technicians out for service. So check us out, uh, this spring. We're gonna be at a few upcoming trade shows. We'll be at, uh, F S S A, uh, down in Orlando. We'll be at all three NAFA events, um, in Las Vegas, Atlantic City and Chicago. Uh, plans on being at N F P A in June. And then there's some other, uh, trade shows that we do plan on attending throughout the year. So stay [email protected] and all the social media channels. Enjoy the podcast. So, uh, thanks guys again for, for joining the podcast today. Um, so I, I might get this wrong a little bit. I'll probably get it right in the intro, but, um, I know, uh, we, we've got Mike Friedman, uh, Randy Rousseau and John, sorry, how do you pronounce your last name?

Mike Friedman: (03:16):

Tah-bah-kek

Drew Slocum: (03:16):

Tabacek from, uh, the Eliminator, uh, fire Extinguisher. Is there another, um, company name that I should be referencing?

Randy Rousseau: (03:26):

Uh, that's, this would be Eliminator, L L C.

Drew Slocum: (03:30):

Okay. So Eliminator, L L C. I wanted to have them on the podcast today, cuz uh, actually it was, uh, I was tagged in a social media post from, uh, Chris Logan from the Fire Sprinkler Podcast. Um, Chris, Chris and I are always talking. He's got a bunch of stuff geared up for 2020. This is our first podcast of 2020. So, uh, he, uh, tipped me off on the eliminator, and I've been looking for over a year of different, um, we always look for new technologies on the Fire Protection Podcast, but the fire extinguisher side has, has, it seems like it's always behind. It's a 50, 60 year old industry. So when, when Chris showed this to me, I was very intrigued. Um, so I did a little research, the eliminator, I'll let you guys explain it in a second, but essentially it's a, um, it's a new extinguisher to the market that, uh, it's gonna get rid of the, the issues with stored pressure.

(04:33)
Um, there's a lot of, uh, new technology that they're putting into this eliminator product, but, uh, what I liked about it most is it's making, making the industry think whether, whatever, everybody, there's a lot of different opinions that I've, uh, actually asked people about the product pros and cons. And at le at least it's getting people to think about it. So, um, you know, this 50, 60 year old, uh, uh, way we've been doing things in the fire extinguisher side, uh, is starting to change. So, um, I'll quit talking. I'll, I'll let you guys introduce yourself, uh, one by one and we'll kind of kick it off from there.

Randy Rousseau: (05:16):

This is Randy Russo, and I am the inventor and founder of the Eliminator Fire Extinguisher. And we also have, uh, Mike Friedman here.

Mike Friedman: (05:28):

Yeah. And I'm an investor in the eliminator L L C. Uh, but I spent 29 years at Procter and Gamble in a variety of roles. The last seven was in innovation, but really helping globally p and g drive its innovation agenda. And that was, uh, at the time when AG Lafley was the ceo. And we made just huge strides, so tremendous learning. Then I joined an innovation management consulting company called Calypso. So I got to take all those learnings out to other clients around the world, primarily and in consumer med device and industrial, uh, clients. And then along the way, I met Randy and we talked about his innovation. And I got to share a lot of the lessons learned I had of what drives successful innovation all the way through from inspiration to successful commercialization, as well as the things that are, uh, watchouts that cause people to fail.

(06:33)
So, became good friends and, uh, we're on this journey and it's a very exciting one. And what I, what I really liked about Randy's vision is that this is about not sales of the, uh, annual, uh, buyer extinguishers. Now in the US there's about 300 million fire extinguishers in the embedded base. The annual sales are somewhere around 10 million. It's been a barrier to innovation cuz people look at the market size of 10 million and say, well, it's big but not that big to make the investment that's needed in getting through all the certifications of UL FM Global. But Randy's vision was, the current fire extinguishers were not working as designed, and they could not be serviced as designed. And so we really needed to change the industry and reshape it. So the market in the US was really 300 million fire extinguishers. And when you look at the global marketplace of 4 billion fire extinguishers, it's a huge marketplace. And so the vision is really to change that by leveraging technology to drive a better performing product. And so, as an innovator that spent all those years working in innovation, that really had me excited. Plus he's a good person and his family are amazing,

John Tabacek: (07:55):

So thanks Mike. Yeah, this is, uh, John Ekk. Um, I'm a friend of Mike Friedman's, he and his wife for many years. And I was in the telecom industry for over 28 years. And obviously the technology, the improvements over, uh, the generations was pretty astronomical as we see. And Mike introduced me to the eliminator and the Russo team and, uh, was intrigued. So I did, you know, a little research myself, talked to a few people I had known through the telecom industry and saw a big need for innovation and the, what the eliminator brought to the table. And it really perked a lot of people's, uh, ears up. And so I've been out, you know, marketing and working with the universities, large corporations in just getting some incredible, incredibly positive feedback. And this is something, this is not gonna be a sprint, it's obviously a marathon, but you know, it took us basically 16 years to design development testing to get, you know, UL listing and overcome a lot of the regulatory hurdles. So this will take time, but I'm very impressed and the people I'm dealing with are just ecstatic about something that is new, something that actually is gonna save lives down the road.

Randy Rousseau: (09:12):

That's great. So Drew a little bit, this is Randy. Sure. Russo, again, a a little bit of my background. I own and operate in La Sierra Fire Equipment Inc for the last 35 years. And it was started for my father-in-law. And, uh, during the course of building the business, I developed relationships. And the way, the way the fire extinguisher business is structured out here in California is what type of extinguishers you can service are designated by Alphabet. And the majority of those service companies out here in California are what they call designated BC or D. And those letter designations allow you to service certain type of portable fire extinguishers. And there are over 600 licensed companies in California, but there are only 50 a licensed companies. And what that designation means as you can do halon hydrostatic test on pressurized cylinders, reclaim clean agent Sure co2, basically all types of extinguishers.

(10:19)
And when my father was running, the father-in-law was running the business. He was always just a B and a C license company. So he was basically under the thumb of an a license company. And, uh, that was one of the first things I needed to address once we took over the, uh, management and direction of the company. And that structure alone for a service company makes it very difficult to really expand that your base of business, because you can't even talk directly to the manufacturers of fire extinguishers, any of the suppression system site because they only deal with brick and mortar companies, which are the a licensed companies. So the a license companies really are in control of the market, and I know other states are, are structured similar to that. So we had to focus on that and, uh, you know, get, get a location and uh, basically get out from under and, and create our own path forward.

(11:14)
And we, we found a location and a lot of the service companies, they, they kind of, uh, they're out in the field and they're a little, sometimes a little difficult to find. And we found a location that was right up front. It, it, it has freeway frontage. So we're proud of what we do. As a matter of fact, on a lot of our marketing material, we, our statement is we love what we do because we're, we're protecting the public and the fire extinguishers are there when you strip it down, they're there for us as the public and the employees of the business. And it's very important that, uh, they work in the event you're gonna need them. So once we had had a brick and mortar, we, we set out on and getting the license to become an, a licensed company here in California, we did that about, uh, 12 years ago. And then it was time to develop the relationship with an extinguisher manufacturer. Right. And what I had found out is that the way that was fragmented, they, they didn't really like to keep a lot of other service companies on their books and carry the credit. So I had to work my way up and develop a relationship with Badger. Yep. And Badger, who is now under United Technologies, was it, was

Drew Slocum: (12:25):

It, was this, uh, before they got swiped up by utc?

Randy Rousseau: (12:30):

Yes, sir. Okay, good, good memory. Drew , that was Williams holding in, in, in, in London, England. So I had developed a relationship directly with the president and vice president, which was very unique in the, uh, for a fire extinguisher company to, I've done that and we were dealing directly with the vice president and president and we ended up landing the state of California contract. So any state business facility that would purchase a new extinguisher, hydro IT service, it, it all came through our, our fire extinguisher service company, last Sierra fire equipment. And then what what that did is it, it gave us a direct bird's eye view of what was going on for the end user. Mm-hmm. . And what we started to realize is there was a disconnect from the manufacturer to the enforcement sector to the end user. Sure. As such, I'll just take it. Every portable stored pressure extinguisher is designed for the left hander. The gauge is on the left.

Drew Slocum: (13:35):

Right, right.

Randy Rousseau: (13:36):

The pull pin is on the left, the instructions are on the left and the hose retainers on the left. And a lot of these state agencies, they will require live fire demos for their OSHA piece so that, uh, they could have the proper training. And when we would go out, we would do a little bit different than handing them the extinguisher and have 'em just put the fire out. We would actually build a temporary wall. We'd bring a temporary wall that we had built and have them remove the fire extinguisher from the bracket because that's how it would be in real world. Right. Where a majority of service companies, when they would do a fire demo, they would just hand it to you. So just that very act of having the end user remove it from the bracket of the wall, you could see the challenges of them operating the unit. And a fire now doubles in size. I'm sure you know, drew every eight seconds.

Drew Slocum: (14:27):

Yep.

Randy Rousseau: (14:28):

So you, the last thing you want on a product that's required to be in a business for public safety is some belief having some challenges or fumbling with how to operate the extinguisher. Sure. To bring the fire out. Excuse me. So, well then what we found out is the right hander reaches over, they're holding the unit with their left hand and they're reaching over and it's kinda awkward. Do you remove the pull pin? They can't read the instructions, remove the hose, or even see the gauge where a left hander comes over. They hold it with their right hand and they have their free left hand. They can freely remove the, the pull pin and activate the unit and put out the fire. So that we just started making notes of what, what our, uh, end users and our customers once were or what their needs were and identify we would go to large organizations that, uh, would ship extinguishers internally through a system that they had to get there to different dcs or, or their retail locations. And they were praying they were paying some serious shipping charges because it was a stored pressure vessel. Right. Right. And one time the charges were more than the actual cost of the extinguisher to the end user. So that was another thing that we, we wanted to make note of. And becoming an a licensed company, we, at that time, we were doing hydro and reclaiming pallon and clean agent for over 30 of our f e d fire equipment distributors.

Drew Slocum: (15:52):

Right.

Randy Rousseau: (15:53):

And in that course of the process, we would see that when they would bring the extinguishers, it was a, it was a kind of a mashup of many different manufacturers. You know, they would bring 30 of them out and there might be seven different manufacturers, all abc. But it was kinda logistically difficult when we have to hydro it. And when you, what I mean by hydro, the cylinder, because it's constantly under pressure being a stored pressure vessel every so often it is required to te to test the integrity of the cylinder.

Drew Slocum: (16:26):

It's every 12 years, right?

Randy Rousseau: (16:27):

Yes. Or if it's in a vehicle, it's every six.

Drew Slocum: (16:30):

So, uh, I, I know you're, uh, still giving your intro, but uh, just so I don't forget it, how many people actually do 12 years or they just swapping them?

Randy Rousseau: (16:42):

That's about 50 50 out here.

Drew Slocum: (16:44):

Okay. Okay.

Randy Rousseau: (16:46):

Yeah, it's about 50

Drew Slocum: (16:46):

50. Sorry, I I, I I didn't wanna forget that cuz you know, most of the times I see it is, you know, they're just swapping it 12 years. They're not doing a they're not doing a, a full hydro, which is in Interesting.

Randy Rousseau: (17:01):

Yeah. When they, when well that's, that's a whole nother topic. When they swap it, are they swapping it with one that's gonna be due for hydro again in two years? Or are they swapping it for one that's gonna be due for hydro in five years because that business owner invested in that product that was good for 12 years and we see a lot of times where they swap it out and it might be hydro again, due for hydro again in three years rather than in 12 what it should really be.

Drew Slocum: (17:24):

Exactly.

Randy Rousseau: (17:25):

So there's, there's a, there's a lot of that, uh, going on in the industry, but, uh, logistically when we would have 'em here and you say you've got seven different brands of 30 extinguishers, it is our responsibility to keep the chemical separated cuz you can't mix up different manufacturers ABC Chemical who would compromise the UL or FM listing. So then I decided, well, I can get ahead of that. I just asked, uh, fds when they bring the units, they store the chemical and bring the units empty. So then what we ran into is when they would deliver the extinguishers, there was about two to three inches of chemical left in every single unit. Right. Unanimously. And, uh, we would call them owner up and say, we asked you to empty these out. And they said, we did, we couldn't get the rest of the chemical out.

(18:12)
And that was, that was an, uh, an eye-opening moment also. Cause well, wait a minute. There's got compaction or some moisture or something had had, uh, gotten to these cylinders on the inside, which allowed a lot of, uh, taking to occur. And we literally came up with an apparatus to put on the end of a, uh, pressurized hose and then we'd have to stick it into the cylinder and, and basically scrape and grind out this hardened chemical in the base of the extinguisher. Sure. And that, that became quite the task too. So that was another thing we noted. And we noted about 16 issues on a traditional stored pressure extinguisher. And they've stood the test of time and they've been around, like you said, 60, it's almost been 70 years now. But the, this, the issue with the traditional steel stored pressure extinguisher is that stored pressure, the steel cylinder, and they're constantly under pressure.

(19:15)
And that is why the industry requires a license certified technician because they're, they potentially, they could be dangerous. Right. And I I'm sure you have stories of them exploding and Yeah. Coming apart on technicians. So with all of that together, and, uh, we had an apartment, a little side story here that was in San Bernardino, California. We got a call and they said, uh, we've got 18 extinguishers we need you to come take a look at. And we said, we don't, that's not our account. And they said, we understand that, that's why we want you to come out. So my brother who heads up the service side of the business now Sure. He went out there and my cousin was visiting from Vermont and he happened to jump on the vehicle with him and they showed up. There was, uh, ambulances, police, and a coroner.

(20:00)
Oh boy. And they hand the, they show the extinguishers where they're at and my brother starts to look at 'em. And this was probably about seven years after we no longer did an internal tag. You used to have Right. The internal tag where you put it on the siphon tube with your initials and who serviced it. And they went to the verification caller that's on the outside of the extinguisher. Well, once my brother opened up the extinguishers, he realized that these extinguishers had not been serviced for many, many years. Right. And what the, what the f e D was doing was just wiping 'em down and tagging it, which he didn't address the compaction of the, the chemical or nothing. Yeah. He wasn't

Drew Slocum: (20:39):

Yep. He wasn't actually doing an inspection.

Randy Rousseau: (20:42):

And, and in the course of my brother doing this, he watched these small body bags being carried down the steps at the apartment building and a gentleman drove up in a vehicle and he was very angry and he got out and he was the uncle that was his nephew and nieces that perished in a fire because 18 of these extinguishers did not work. So when my brother got back and he said, if I was to touch a fire extinguisher and it did not work, and that same situation happened, I don't know how I could live with myself. Right. And it was from that moment forward that we decided we needed to create a device for the end user that could be simplistic to operate. It wouldn't be stored pressure and all these other issues of why we are in the service business to maintain this system currently.

Drew Slocum: (21:36):

Right.

Randy Rousseau: (21:37):

And we, we knew we've never invented anything. We never designed anything. And basically what we did is we took the issues that we felt that we dealt with every single day. And we continued to today because I still operate my service business and put it into a device and design it for the end user. Don't design it for the code and the regulations, don't design it for manufacturing process, but actually design a product for the end user that they're required by regulations to have.

Mike Friedman: (22:09):

And Randy, if I might inject, what I think is really important here, drew, from, from our perspective, is that we didn't design the bio extinguisher to meet the code only we designed it for the end user. So it's gonna work and meet the code.

Drew Slocum: (22:27):

Correct.

Mike Friedman: (22:29):

So that, that's, that's very critical.

Drew Slocum: (22:32):

Well, and, and the, the whole code thing is, you know, and it's across N F P A as well. It's, you know, you might have a great product out there that meets the needs of fire protection and the end user, but maybe the code has to get updated, which happens a lot. And probably many of the standards out there, the code lags behind, uh, innovative technologies, which is a big issue for N F P A and um, I know they're trying to address it, but, uh, you know, it it, it takes new products and, and, uh, like this, like yours to really, uh, challenge that. I think. So.

Randy Rousseau: (23:11):

So then we, then we set off on the path of, uh, going out and working on some, some, uh, prototype designs. And we came across a, a design engineer who had had over 55 years experience in polymers. And he actually had designed a gas mask for the US military that he owned patents on and, and was, uh, building it for him. And he had come up with a nylon material and a polymer that had never been done before. That was, uh, a, a very special technique that made it very robust and in design and strong to be able to hold pressures. Mm-hmm. . And, and we basically started off with that, that would, what that did is it got us away from the steel component cuz the majority of extinguishers, or whether they're aluminum or their cold rolled steel and their welded sweat welding on the top and the bottom, this was gonna be a mold process with tooling.

(24:10)
So it could never been done in the industry before. So we, we started getting some, uh, prototypes made up, and there's a big contrast in difference between cold world steel and having a tooling and the UL piece, which was, which was another journey dealing with ul. When we originally submitted the, uh, extinguishers to ul, they were all rejected and they were rejected based on the material that they were designed of because they were made out of a polymer material. And unbeknownst to us, they had, uh, UL had tested some propane tanks or some other things and, and they, they couldn't even meet, you know, three or 400 psi. So when they, when they received these extinguishers, they just opened up the box, looked at it and rejected it. So that was, that was quite the, uh, dance to get back in with UL to even review the product.

(25:00)
And once we did, and there was a lot of dialogue back and forth, as you could imagine, they said, well, you're gonna have to meet every requirement that that steel cylinder, they pointed, I, I think we were at a restaurant, they pointed at a cylinder on the wall, but that one has to meet. We said, fine. So what they did is they, they did, they went straight to the burst test and now the burst test is exceeding what a hydrostatic test would be. Right. Right. Yep. So they wanted to do a burst test and they wanted to do the fire test and they, they, they were, uh, a little reluctant that, you know, what, what we'd be able to do. And they didn't really take into consideration of the experience and the knowledge that we had from the service industry because they only deal with large scale, huge manufacturers and fire testing Yep.

(25:49)
That know how to design a cylinder out of steel and have been doing it, you know, for seven decades. And then alone comes this small family business. And, uh, lo and behold, we started meeting the thresholds. So we started getting more and more aggressive and we, we had some shortcomings with, uh, some of the designs on flow rates and things like that. And we continued to look for a, a relationship we could have with manufacturer. And then, then we came across, uh, national Presto Industries and they had been in, uh, the business and manufacturing small appliances for nearly a hundred years. And they were out of Eau Claire, Wisconsin. And they came out and they met with us and they were very intrigued with the product. And they spent three days and they, they brought their whole team out here. And interesting enough, they, they had acquired a adult incontinent business along with their small appliances. And they're also in the, the, uh, ammunition business. They've been making ammunition since world wari Okay. For the US government. So they're pretty diversified. They also had an non lethal division and they had a 10 million, I think it was eight to 10 million piece of automated equipment for the, uh, adult incontinent diaper business. And it caught on fire. And guess what seven of the extinguishers did not work

Drew Slocum: (27:10):

For. Oh, what, what about the, what about the sprinkler system?

Randy Rousseau: (27:13):

Uh, I believe it's an older building. I'm not sure whether or not, I don't know about the sprinkler.

Drew Slocum: (27:18):

How, how does, how does a how does a manufacturing facility not have sprinklers in it?

Randy Rousseau: (27:24):

Prob probably a grandfathered in, but I, I'm not sure about that. I, I won't go on record whether they have it or not ,

(27:32)
But the facility where the, where I know that this, uh, adult incontinent was in, was one of the original part of the building that, so it's, it's probably 90 years old, but it had to have been retrofitted with sprinklers. Now, now I tend to think about it. But anyway, they were touched obviously with the issue of, wait a minute, these extinguishers that we have to maintain annually didn't work properly. So what is I, what I did is what I came through, I gave 'em the presentation of, of why, why the eliminator. And, uh, I just had people from the industry come through there. There was maintenance folks and chancellors from the university, people who had built large scale distribution centers and just let them ask the questions and what, what is it like to live their responsibility of maintaining fire extinguishers for their facilities and what this new technology would mean to them. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, they were very intrigued and that we ended up, uh, working out a partnership with them and they called the, uh, subsidiary that they're manufacturing the product under Russo. And that's, uh, a, a, a derivative of our last name.

Drew Slocum: (28:42):

Sure.

Randy Rousseau: (28:43):

Which is, uh, that's, uh, www.rusoh.com, which is coincidentally can be my, uh, Randy's d r and at the end of the word is h uh, for Hector, which is my father. Oh,

Drew Slocum: (28:56):

Nice.

Randy Rousseau: (28:57):

Cause we've been on this journey at this time when we met National Presto, we were about, uh, 13, 12, 13 years deep and about, uh, three and a half years deep with UL in the testing.

Drew Slocum: (29:09):

So that they got you really kicking, kicking on the Yeah, the

Randy Rousseau: (29:13):

Product National Preto, when we went back to their facility, we walked into the air engineering department and there were all these young people. And, uh, it was Dick Campbell who originally was the one, the design engineer who had all the years experience and the, and the polymers, and then, no disrespect to Dick, but he'd been a, he was, he took this challenge on, and when we walked into, uh, Presto's facility and their young engineers there, there was three or four of them and then their head engineer, they, they had two of 'em. One was, one was, uh, exiting retirement and one was coming on board and he had a lot of experience in, in him and Dick Campbell as Jeff Morgan at Presto. They, they really meshed together really good. And the dick kind of passed the torch to Jeff and all the engineers and National Presto had a 90 year relationship with ul. So you can imagine that's good. We, we were green and wet behind the ears walking into ul and then now we walk in with national Presto with all of their experience Sure, sure. With the underwriters laboratory. So that, that really gave us, uh, some wind in our sail. Good. And, uh, it continued though, and it took us

(30:28)
On the product and, uh, today it's, it's,

Drew Slocum: (30:32):

Sorry, I lost you guys. Lost you guys for a second. So let me transition a little bit. Um, you know, I, I know the product came out. You, you, you guys have partnered with Presto. Um, what is the, what is the big, why have none of the manufacturers, um, in the last 50 years pushed anything else? Uh, do you have any, uh, you probably have an idea of why that happened. What, what is your opinion? Why, why haven't the, the big, uh, Tyco jci amax utc, what, what's been stopping them from innovating in the market?

Mike Friedman: (31:13):

So I, I'll give my sense from a business side, the market, the annual sales are small, the barrier to entry is high, the cost to entry is high. Correct. And cause people are so focused on cost savings, there's a lot of pressure on costs throughout the whole our extinguisher ecosystem, right. People looked at and said, I've gotta spend $10 million to get a UL listing to sell maybe 20, 30% more than my current base on which I don't make any money, so why would I want to make the investment?

Drew Slocum: (31:54):

Yep.

Mike Friedman: (31:55):

And when you're talking about breaking through something with new codes, it it's really tough. It's really tough. So, uh, they have all these barriers to entry. They were satisfied with what they were doing, they didn't see the potential and they invested money in other things

Drew Slocum: (32:15):

To totally get it. I've seen it firsthand. So, uh, but I, I, I still question it, you know, you know, out of all the fire protection schemes, you got fire alarm, you got sprinkler, you've got suppression systems, and then you have extinguishers, which are a big piece of the market. You think there'd be some to some sort of innovation there. But, um, there hasn't been what, which I'm glad, I'm really glad you guys are, are making a push here cuz it's, um, I I think you're, you're gonna have some good traction with it as well as hopefully change some of the code and, and, and the way end users are looking at it as well. Um, there's definitely

Randy Rousseau: (32:53):

June, not to interrupt you, it's, it's, this is probably a textbook business as usual. And, and there is a disconnect. There's a disconnect from the manufacturers, from the fire authority and the enforcement and the service industry. To, to give you an example, right. Prior to us launching the product, I went to our, the president of our association here in California so that he could hear it directly from the horse's mouth why we did it, what we were doing, and what we were trying to accomplish. And then, and we're, we're not sticking our finger in the eye of the service industry or Sure. Or anyone else. What we wanted to do is just give, for the first time ever, the business owner or the homeowner an auction Right. That they've never had before in a portable fire extinguisher. Right. In the course of me, uh, opening up the case and showing it to this president of our association, he was really taken back and he said, you know, Randy, wow.

(33:59)
I mean, we're business, we're, we're all in business. And, and when you own your own business, you're busy with that. Being an entrepreneur, we all have families and we have all these other things and our hobbies that, that take up our time in our life. How did you ever come up with the time to be able to develop this in the background along with living life and, and, and I really believe that's it in a nutshell. That everybody just accepts it the way it was and goes along with it, you know? Right. And don't question it. But to me it was, we really had to do it. And, and I've been motivated and, and driven to do something since day one. When I first went out in the truck with my father-in-law, we, we serviced a circus vargos and back then you would do it with a super can, if you remember that, like a bucket in a bag.

(34:53)
And there was a hundred extinguishers, 88 o'clock at night, and I was 17 years old when we were in a tent in dirt. And he, he started to fire off these extinguishers, and it was the first time I ever was exposed to it. And I said to him, what are you doing? And he said, well, these are stored pressure I have to fire off the chemical into this canister to break up the material. And then I said, and then what? We put the material right back into the cylinder and, and way back then over almost 40 years ago, I thought, how antiquated and backwards is that?

Drew Slocum: (35:25):

Right,

Randy Rousseau: (35:26):

Right, right. And that's been driving me ever since. That just, just to come up with something like a KISS system and the, the design of the eliminator, it's never under pressure. The most wear and tear on a traditional stored pressure extinguisher is the service company. The O rings. Yep. The pressure of the cylinder, tearing it down, putting it back together, trading them out, putting 'em in a vehicle, bringing 'em back out and forth and, you know, carrying him down in a, in a large structure facility. What about just having a product that sits in its location for its life and everything can maintain right there on the spot. Very simple. The only time it's ever under pressure is in the event of a fire. So, and it's only under pressure for about 30 seconds.

Drew Slocum: (36:19):

Correct. Right. Yeah. You, you eliminated one, you know, one big challenge right there.

Randy Rousseau: (36:25):

So, and, and in any area where you're susceptible to sea or, or lakes or, or ocean water, you get a lot of corrosion and flash rusting, it's, it's made out of polymer material, it cannot rust. Right. So all that hydro, all that internal inspection, then we have to do it a six year tear down. It's all eliminated. And what happened when we were coming with the name of the product, we eliminated this, we eliminated that. We, it's the eliminator, you know, it eliminates the fire and the, and the fire and the discharge and the, the, the flow. It is absolutely phenomenal firefighting tool. Besides all, all of the features that we addressed on a traditional extinguisher. The, uh, the performance of it from, from industry that, uh, that have fired it off from, from people that are hands on, first responders. And, uh, we've already had the product out there and people be exposed to an emergency situation where they've had to have it.

(37:21)
We've had it out in a, a, a vehicle that was towing a, a trailer and a fire starting in his motorcycle in the back of the trader. He grabbed the unit, never had fired off before. Streamlined Perfect. Put the fire out. We had a, a manufacturing facility with wood and wood chips was very flammable situation. And the equipment got, uh, uh, on fire up above his head. Yep. He had to, he had to shoot it about an eight foot, uh, distance above his head, knocked the fire out. We had a, on a highway going up to the, uh, San Bernardino mountains, a brush fire, a brush fire with a portable extinguisher, a welder put the fire out. And we, we had back in Wisconsin that near, uh, Russo, the manufacturer, they had a, uh, a hay bale or something that caught on fire, wrapped the unit, put the fire out. Sure. Just in the short period of time that, uh, we've been on the market, we, we've had fantastic results.

Drew Slocum: (38:16):

So it seems like, it seems like you have a lot of great results with the actual product. I, uh, you know, talking to a bunch of people, there's, there, you know, there's a bunch of barriers to entry and I I, I've talked to a bunch of people and obviously you're in, you're in with the associations out there, what you and the, obviously the end users are, are one case, and I think, I think you're going about it the right way, is trying to get some big end users to really adopt the product. Um, a lot of different fire protections, uh, schemes, whether it's fire alarm, sprinkler suppression, that's always a great way to, to really push the point across is, is go to those end users or, um, decision makers at the, at the end of the line. But there's a lot of people in between where I feel at least the extinguisher industry, whether it's the AHA or the, um, f e d fire extinguisher distributors, um, that nor I feel like they're, they are two integral parts to the process. Do you have plans of, of going after those AHJs and, and on the other other question is of what about those eds? What, what, what have you experienced so far?

Randy Rousseau: (39:35):

Well, uh, great questions. We absolutely want to embrace both of those. And we were asked by the California State Fire Marshal once we received the, uh, official UL listing to not go out and do a large scale marketing campaign because the product was so new and the innovation, and that was to go out and do exactly that. And that was embrace not only the AHJs throughout California, but nationwide. And we actually launched the product at F D I C and, uh, Indianapolis, which is the largest firefighters convention in the world. Yep. And, and their, their response was, uh, it was unbelievable as a, we, you couldn't even walk down the aisle that there were so many of 'em there. And you can, you can imagine from there, we've got many referrals and we've embraced the National Association of State Fire Marshals, and we really have put a lot of effort into the, it's an education piece to understand why this product, what was the reasoning for, and how can we work together with both the code enforcement AHJs and state fire marshal committees.

(40:54)
And we, we've been an intricate part of that in the, in the last year and a half of working directly with them. And it, and it is a barrier of entry, but it is also an education piece. And then I think once, once we, uh, overcome that and we move forward, then we're gonna work on the, uh, f e D side of things. And usually the response that we're getting with the F EED is when, when they really understand the product and don't look at it as, as a threat and how it can streamline their entire base of business. You can, you can imagine in, in New York or Chicago with those massive buildings that you have logistically moving fire extinguishers around how this completely changes their base of business. Sure. With this type of, uh, new technology

Mike Friedman: (41:44):

And, and Drew, as you think about innovation across the board, one of the biggest challenges for any new innovation is behavior change. So you really have to change the behaviors of people Correct. To do something different. And so a big part of that is education because, uh, a lot of the AHJs are risk averse. They've had a lot of challenges with litigation and other things, and so they're very careful. And so that taking on something new requires an education, and then they've gotta be willing to change their behavior. And the same thing, there's a lot of fear, I think, by some of the service companies. This says, wait, this is my business. That's what I do. I can't have this. Instead of saying, all right, how might I use this to reframe my business? So that's a big part of our efforts of doing it. And you know, the AHJs are very fragmented. So in some states with California, like California, you've got a statewide guidance that goes down, but in New York you don't have that. So it's very fragmented to the local level.

Drew Slocum: (42:57):

Yes. That that's, that's a good point too. You know, um, there's a lot of, um, compliance. So there's AHJs, you know, across, across the US are, are starting to, um, implement third party compliance platforms to help them with their different fire protection systems out there, whether it's fire alarm, whether it's, um, uh, s sprinkler systems, whether it's suppression systems. One thing that seems to be forgotten in that is fire extinguishers. And I'm, I'm always, I've kind of asked the question, why do AHJs, um, not have compliance systems or third, you know, having a software help with, with third card party compliance on their, on their extinguisher systems? Do they know what their extinguishers are doing in a jurisdiction? Which I don't, there's not many out there that do. So it's, uh, I it was a question that I had. And why is that on the other protection schemes, they're, they're tracking it, but not on the extinguishers. Any, any thoughts there?

Mike Friedman: (44:10):

Well, I, I have one theory. So our first responders are really heroes and in California with all the fire, uh, um, that we've had here, that they've been working together across the state to pool their resources to put them out. So tremendous pressure on those people. And Randy's son-in-law a is a hero. He's been in all the big fires here. So they're focused on those big things. In other parts of the country, it's flooding, it's hurricanes, it's blizzards. So they're out doing the big things. And then the budgets are really tight. So when you're spending all this time fighting these, uh, events and fires, your budgets in the local communities get strained. So for them to be knowledgeable about the code, and one of our, our, our, um, people that did a lot of the testing told me you could put a eight by four table and stack at four feet high, and those are all the code manuals that they have to be up bottom. Yeah. Yeah. So they just don't have the capacity in my mind. And I don't, you know, no one person can know all the codes. So they do the perfunctionary testing and don't want to go deep in into the things that Randy and Rudy and his family uncovered when they were actually servicing, because they don't have the time to really deal with code compliance for fire extinguishers. That's, that's kind of my perspective.

Randy Rousseau: (45:38):

Yeah. Drew this, this is Randy. And when, when you look at it from an an f e D point of view, like I said, there's, there's nearly 600 companies here in California, so it's, it's highly competitive. And what happens when it comes to portable extinguishers, it's a race to the bottom. So there's, there's not a lot as, as Mike's mentioned, the budgetary restraints for the businesses to get into monitoring or, or, or really taking care of the portable, like it should be monitored and take and, and looked after. That's, that's the shortcomings that's happened. But then comparable to the fire panels and the standpipes and the sprinklers, there's, there's a, a budgetary flexibility there that is not there with the, uh, portable extinguishers. Oh,

Drew Slocum: (46:25):

I totally see that. I mean, uh, you know, with our, the inspect point platform, we've had a tough time, you know, showing it to eds because it's such a low cost platform and we've made big improvements to make it more efficient. Um, but if you don't make it efficient, the FDS aren't gonna use it. So, and that goes back to, it's just a, it's a low cost piece of the business, which, um, hopefully starts to change. I don't, I don't, but I think, I think you guys are bringing a product to market that hopefully will potentially start to change code around change, change, AHJs, uh, thoughts of it, and as well as end users. End users, um, you know, the big manufacturers, the big Amazons of the world, uh, they can really push change because they're the ones purchasing at the end of the day. So,

Mike Friedman: (47:23):

And, and Drew, one of the things that we're realizing is that we need to change cultures and organization to really focus on safety, quality and compliance. And it's not the dollar amount because the spending on servicing a fire extinguisher for most companies gets lost in the rounding of the company's budget overall. But if you look at companies that have tried to drive the bottom line at the cost of safety, compliance and quality, there's some big challenges there. So we're thinking about it as, and, and John and I, with, with Randy's brother Rudy went into one company, we just did an assessment and looked at and they had, uh, close to a hundred code violations for 45 extinguishers. And one of 'em was really, a couple were really obvious. One, they had the red painted on the wall for a fire extinguisher, but it wasn't there.

(48:19)
Yeah. That's the other one. They had fire extinguishers that rusted and dented, but were hanging up. So still in service. Still in service, right. And so the people that work there see that and say, well, you know what, safety really isn't important here. And when they see a dented one that's rusted, they say, quality's not important here. And when they see an another one that's hanging eight feet high, compliance to code isn't important here. But that's not just for fire extinguishers, that affects the belief systems of the organization, which puts companies at risk. So we think that's the story to tell, because people really don't know. They don't think about it, and they don't realize that they're damaging not only the safety from the fire extinguisher perspective, but how the whole organization goes about doing their work. And, and, uh, there's some very large companies now that, you know, Boeing with the 7 37 is facing a challenge as written in the Forbes because they were so focused on the bottom line that they took shortcuts that caused quality problems. And now they're, uh, uh, Dave Calhoun, who's the new CEO, is trying to change that whole culture. So we think that's a story that we need to bring to bear to help people, that it's not only the budget of the servicing, of the fire extinguishers, the buying of fire extinguishers, but it's really the culture of the organization, the safety of the employees. That's gotta be the messaging to change the behaviors to, uh, go forward.

Drew Slocum: (49:55):

Yeah. Uh, I, I think you have, I think you have something there, but if you look at the, and Randy, you know this where, where most of the fire extinguishers out there is probably in commercial, commercial buildings. And, um, I think the biggest portion is commercial. And at, at the end of the day, does, does a commercial building owner really care about, I, I'm sure they care about safety and compliance and all that, but, uh, a, um, a manufactured, you know, a big corporation is a little bit different than a, a commercial building owner. And again, I think you have to challenge it and you guys doing, going at it the right way, getting, I think ajs getting them involved and the DS is really the way to it. Um, are, are you guys heading to, to NAED this year at the, the NAED shows?

Randy Rousseau: (50:50):

Absolutely.

Drew Slocum: (50:51):

Okay. That's great. Uh, yeah, we'll be at all three. Uh, so we'll probably see you there. I, I'm interested, is this the first year you'll be at naed or have you been there before?

Randy Rousseau: (51:02):

Uh, first year with the product? We've, we have not, uh, taken the product. Like I said, we were focusing more on the fire service and, and, and code folks and AHJs.

Drew Slocum: (51:11):

Yeah, I'd be interested to see your, you know, I'd love to reconvene with you after, after May, after those, uh, NA Fed events and uh, see what the reception is cuz I, I really think that that could potentially be a more accelerated way to the market and trying to get some of their ideas. Cuz the industry definitely needs some change. It needs some new ways of thinking and this is, this is just a start of it. I, I believe

Randy Rousseau: (51:38):

So. No, we, we appreciate that. Maybe we can break some bread while we're together at, uh, those shows.

Drew Slocum: (51:45):

Yeah, I won't be in Vegas. I think it'll be in Atlantic City, in the Chicago one as well. So, uh, uh, might be doing some podcasts live from, from Na Fed. So it's always been a big, uh, it's been a big market for us that we haven't hit and, um, you know, whether the inspect point platform. So, um, so we're, we're approaching an hour here. Um, so I, I, I know we've talked a lot, a lot of different things and I'll give you guys a a couple more minutes to, to chat about your thing, but I, I usually try to, uh, at the end do a little quick response round for, uh, for the guests and, and kind of, you guys don't know what questions are coming at you. Um, so toss a few of 'em out there, trying to lighten it up a little bit. And, um, then we can chat a little bit more and we'll get out of here. Um, so this, that's a quick response round and you know, I know there's three of you on the phone there, so you know, toss, toss in whatever answers you have. So, falling on social media a lot, um, what's up with this, uh, top Gun and Rob Lowe, I saw something on Rob Low on social media. What's that all about?

Randy Rousseau: (52:57):

Well, well being out here in sunny southern California, you can imagine, uh, there's some association with, with the Hollywood and we got the opportunity to outfit their first responder vehicles with the, the Russo eliminator product, which was very exciting. The, uh, the top gun piece is still confidential.

Drew Slocum: (53:19):

Oh, sorry, .

Randy Rousseau: (53:21):

Let's just, let's just say that there's rumor that Maverick's personal hanger, uh, is outfitted with the, uh, Russo eliminator fire extinguisher. And, uh, you never know what might hit the cutting room floor by the time the film's released, but it was for, for me, per personally and professionally to, uh, go out and, and hang out on the movie set and, uh, visit with, uh, Tom Cruise and, and see the, the product there installed by the, uh, set decorators was, uh, pretty phenomenal.

Drew Slocum: (53:52):

And so was it a decorator decision or was it, uh, do you have an in with, uh, a movie produced? I that, that's very inter interesting how you, how you got the, the extinguisher in there.

Randy Rousseau: (54:02):

Hey Drew, how about we let your listeners and it'll be, uh, to be continued. How about a sequel? But I, there go, we a whole podcast about my, uh, my involvement with the ho the Hollywood industry. It's a, it's, it's a very fun and interesting story.

Drew Slocum: (54:16):

Well, I I would actually like to take you up on that because, um, I posted on somebody else's thing the other day. You know, I, I'm in heavily involved in the sprinkler world and the sprinkler world in Hollywood is so negatively portrayed that, uh, it's, it's so frustrating. And you see it in commercials, you see it in movies and there's, there's clips out there of just random sprinklers going off damaging everything but, and, and, and ruin in somebody's day cuz they're all wet, but they get out of the fire alive. So I, I'd love to pick your brain on, I know you talked to Hollywood with the eliminator. That's great. Well,

Randy Rousseau: (54:55):

I'll, I'll I'll leave you, I'll leave you with this a a little tease. Very much like National Presto and the management and the CEO who really have my back and I, I'm very in, in indebted to them. I have the same type of relationship with some pretty significant people here in Hollywood that I, that I owe a lot too. And I, I was chosen to build a rotisserie frame off restoration for Michael Bay, the director Wow. For Transformers age of extinction. And as you know, if you listen to the whole podcast, I'm in the fire extinguisher business. I don't build cars, but that doesn't mean that you can have the opportunity to do whatever you set your mind to. And, uh, I'll, I'll leave you with that little tease about how that all came together.

Drew Slocum: (55:47):

Oh, that's great. Yeah, I'll, I'll definitely, uh, I'll see you in Atlantic City in Chicago and we'll, we'll chat about it on the side.

Randy Rousseau: (55:54):

. Excellent. Looking forward

Drew Slocum: (55:55):

To it. That's great. Um, another, another question. So aside from Randy, Mike, John, I know you're involved in, in, in, you know, the eliminator specifically, what other technologies out there in fire protection do you see, um, yeah, do you see as exciting or, you know, we got to really make an impact on the industry over the next five years?

Mike Friedman: (56:24):

I think, uh, the advances in communication are gonna be really important. So people being aware of, uh, when a fire, uh, then comes up to a building that's burning, how can they have instant access to the data of where the, the building design, where everything's located, the communications with all that so that they can instantly see Yeah. And then how might they take advantage of augmented reality with their equipment. So maybe they have a mask where they can get this, they can scroll through different things to get that up there. So I think those kinds of things are valuable. And then I think sensing devices also to understand what's going on in particular hazards. Now one of the challenges that was cybersecurity. So we can get all this great stuff cuz the cost keeps going down, the technology's going down, the cost of data storage is going down, but how do we do cybersecurity? So I was at a, um, a fire service company in New York, in Brooklyn, you know, we talked about and they had a 20 pounder with a sprinkle or had nozzle on it and they wanted to automate it so that they could control it, but they decided not to cuz they're worried if, what if someone hacked the system and could have 'em blow up all at once. So I think some of these technologies are really powerful for what's possible, but then we've gotta look at the cybersecurity portion and solve that as well.

Randy Rousseau: (57:58):

Yeah. Drew, I think the, the smart connected devices, I mean, kind of like where, uh, nest was going and National Presto's also involved now with, uh, one event on the detector system side. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of exciting, uh, products coming out of one event and they're, they're also having some, some challenges with the, the buy-in with the AHJs and the code and the regulations. And as, as you know, in the industry, it, it's slow to change on the, on the fire protection side, but that, that's just been kind of the way it's been. I I think that the technology's always outpacing majority of industries and if we, we can work on that barrier, we're, we're gonna have the, the years to come are gonna be very exciting.

Mike Friedman: (58:43):

Yeah. And the build I have too on those technologies that, uh, Randy's talking about, the other one's big data and I saw example of that. I went up to one of the shows, I think it was N fpa and uh, listen in on the, um, the smoke detectors and they use big data to find out where exactly are we having problems with smoke detectors that don't work, right. So they were able to pinpoint it and stuff. So I think as we move forward here, uh, fire extinguishers for sure are lagging the whole predictive analytics, big data thing. And I think that along with the other systems as we, it connected, smart, connected devices, leveraging the data to drive change and improvements will be very powerful.

Drew Slocum: (59:28):

Yeah. Yeah. Obviously I'm heavy involved in the data and some of the N F P A conversations that are happening there and how to, how to best, uh, optimize some of the data collection to, um, you know, change code to, uh, enhance it. And, uh, I don't know if there's a good direction yet. I, I hope there is, you know, the iot, the, the connected devices that's, that's coming faster and faster. We've got some nice, uh, pretty cool devices coming out later this year that will, will kind of transform the industry on, on, uh, some of that, I believe. So, uh, yeah. That's, that's great. I'm, I'm glad, uh, I'm glad you guys are feeling the same, same thing that we are over here. So, um, one, one, uh, one more quick response. I know those weren't really quick, but, um, who do you got this weekend in the Super Bowl?

Randy Rousseau: (01:00:21):

Well, we're, we're, I'm in California, so I mean, that's, that's kind of a no-brainer. We gotta go over the California team, right? Well,

Drew Slocum: (01:00:27):

Uh, I don't know. I, I, if, if the Giants were playing, I know I'm an Eagles fan, so I can never root for the Giants, even though it's East Coast. You're, are you a Rams fan or a, a Niners fan or a Raiders fan

John Tabacek: (01:00:45):

Fan? I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler fan being originally from Pittsburgh, but I think it's gonna be, you know, what's good about the game? It's like whoever wins, it's not gonna be, you know, it's gonna be close game. It's gonna be, yeah, I looked at that. We get two, two evenly matched teams that, um, uh, whoever wins is not gonna be a surprise.

Randy Rousseau: (01:01:05):

Hey Drew?

Drew Slocum: (01:01:06):

Yeah.

Randy Rousseau: (01:01:07):

The best team and the healthiest and the ones that come out the strongest is who's gonna win on Sunday? .

Drew Slocum: (01:01:14):

Okay. Whoever doesn't go out the, the couple nights before in the Super Bowl,

Randy Rousseau: (01:01:19):

Absolutely

Drew Slocum: (01:01:22):

Well, um, so yeah, that, that's pretty much it, guys. I'll, I'll, I'll give you a couple minutes just to kind of give you the last shout out how to, how to find you guys. Uh, we're coming up on an hour here, so, uh, uh, again, I want to thank you guys for coming out. Uh, really thank you. What you're doing in the extinguisher industry, trying to change some people's, uh, viewpoints of, um, just different extinguishers out there and, uh, challenging the fds, challenging the AHJs and putting the, uh, putting it back in the, uh, end user's hands, like, uh, what I've seen so far. So, uh, yeah, let me know where to find you. Let the listeners know where to find you and, um, yeah, we'll go from there.

Randy Rousseau: (01:02:05):

Alright, thank you very much, drew, for the time. Re really appreciate the opportunity. They can go to, uh, russo.com, again, that's R u s O h.com and, uh, read all about it. And there's videos and background and all, all types of information and, uh, like I said, really appreciate the opportunity. And that's basically in a nutshell that, uh, let the end user be responsible for the product. They wanna hire an f e D, so be it. And, uh, we basically have, uh, innovated this space and it gives the end user an option and an opportunity to try something new.

Mike Friedman: (01:02:48):

And the website, drew, has a certification program there that really takes someone through all the skills and knowledge they need to use and appropriately service the fire extinguisher. So that's very important. It's, you have to go look for it under one of the dropdown menus, but it's in there. It's worth taking a look at that because that's, that knowledge is very important. You have to have that to properly, uh, own and use

Randy Rousseau: (01:03:14):

And maintain it

Mike Friedman: (01:03:15):

And maintain the, uh, rousso eliminator.

Drew Slocum: (01:03:17):

Correct.

John Tabacek: (01:03:18):

Sales are snowballing and, uh, you're gonna start seeing these, you know, everywhere, which is really kind of fun. And, you know, we do a nice little trade show route, so stop by the booth, say hi whenever you can, and, uh, you know, we'll send you some inform information if you need it.

Drew Slocum: (01:03:37):

Yeah, great. Well, well, thanks guys. Uh, um, I'll, I'll throw out the, the social media. I'll, I'll tag everything, uh, social media wise as well as, uh, where to find you guys and we'll, we'll see you at NAED here, uh, probably in about a month or so, right?

Randy Rousseau: (01:03:52):

Yes, sir. Looking forward to it.

Drew Slocum: (01:03:54):

All right. Thanks guys.

Mike Friedman: (01:03:56):

Thank you. Thanks,

John Tabacek: (01:03:57):

Dr.

Drew Slocum: (01:03:58):

Thanks again for Mike, Randy and John at Russo, the eliminator for joining me on today's podcast. I really learned about a, learned a lot about, uh, how they're going to market. Uh, it is a, uh, a sensitive topic in the industry with a new extinguisher out in the market. Um, but I think they're going about it the right way. They do have some challenges in up uphill battles, but I think they're, they've, they've got a, a nice momentum and, uh, they're really gonna open up some eyes, uh, to the industry, I believe. So, uh, again, want to thank those guys for coming on and, um, yeah, a lot more coming with a podcast here in, in early 2020. So please stay tuned, subscribe, and please like the podcast. Talk to you soon.