Fanthropological
322 episodes - English - Latest episode: over 3 years ago - ★★★★★ - 6 ratingsExploring the weird and wonderful world of fandoms!
Every week, we deliver fandom-related "fanalysis" complete with hard data, guests, and, of course, rampant speculation!
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Episodes
Fanthropological Finale: In the End
October 16, 2020 17:37 - 50 minutes - 34.5 MBWow. This it… the end of an era. How do you summarize four years of exploring the breadth of human fandom? This week, we talk about the journey from the beginning to the end of Fanthropological, what we learned, loved, and hated… and so much more! ## Where can I get updates? If you want to follow us on social media, we’ve got you covered: * Facebook: [facebook.com/thenickscast](https://facebook.com/thenickscast) * Twitter: [@thenickscast](https://twitter.com/thenickscast) And of cours...
Fanthropological Finale: In the End
October 16, 2020 17:37 - 50 minutes - 34.5 MBWow. This it… the end of an era. How do you summarize four years of exploring the breadth of human fandom? This week, we talk about the journey from the beginning to the end of Fanthropological, what we learned, loved, and hated… and so much more! ## Where can I get updates? If you want to follow us on social media, we’ve got you covered: * Facebook: [facebook.com/thenickscast](https://facebook.com/thenickscast) * Twitter: [@thenickscast](https://twitter.com/thenicksca...
Fanthropological Finale: Fanthropological AUs (⅔)
October 09, 2020 17:37 - 30 minutes - 21.2 MBAs we continue wrapping up Fanthropological, we talk about several alternate universes (AUs) of topics we could have covered. Topics we would have liked to have covered * Number 5 * Z’s Choice: Haruki Murakami, or <insert niche author du jour> * T’s Choice: VTubers * G’s Choice: Folk Music * Number 4 * Z’s Choice: “Concept: Are there fandom archetypes?” * T’s Choice: Dan Harmon’s Community * G’s Choice: Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure * Number 3 * Z’...
Fanthropological Finale: Fanthropological AUs (⅔)
October 09, 2020 17:37 - 30 minutes - 21.2 MBAs we continue wrapping up Fanthropological, we talk about several alternate universes (AUs) of topics we could have covered. Topics we would have liked to have covered * Number 5 * Z’s Choice: Haruki Murakami, or <insert niche author du jour> * T’s Choice: VTubers * G’s Choice: Folk Music * Number 4 * Z’s Choice: “Concept: Are there fandom archetypes?” * T’s Choice: Dan Harmon’s Community * G’s Choice: Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure * Nu...
Fanthropological Finale: Cover to Coverage (⅓)
October 02, 2020 17:37 - 36 minutes - 25.1 MBIf you’re joining us for the first time, sorry to say this is the beginning of the end of Fanthropological. Join us as we revisit our favourite episodes (and maybe check them out)! Our favourite episodes: * Number 5 * [Z’s Choice: Zelda](https://fanthropological.com/zelda) * [T’s Choice: Nier](https://fanthropological.com/nier) * [G’s Choice: Galaga](https://fanthropological.com/galaga) * Number 4 * [Z’s Choice: RPI](https://fanthropological.com/rpi) * [T’s...
Fanthropological Finale: Cover to Coverage (⅓)
October 02, 2020 17:37 - 36 minutes - 25.1 MBIf you’re joining us for the first time, sorry to say this is the beginning of the end of Fanthropological. Join us as we revisit our favourite episodes (and maybe check them out)! Our favourite episodes: * Number 5 * [Z’s Choice: Zelda](https://fanthropological.com/zelda) * [T’s Choice: Nier](https://fanthropological.com/nier) * [G’s Choice: Galaga](https://fanthropological.com/galaga) * Number 4 * [Z’s Choice: RPI](https://fanthropological.com/...
Are sequels good for Fandom?
July 31, 2020 17:37 - 23 minutes - 16 MBInspired by our upcoming charity marathon, the Race Against Time, we’re back to talking about sequels and how they change fandom. A fandom can live off of very little material (e.g. Reboot, Chrono Trigger) … but what happens when there is a sequel? Is that a good thing? In particular, we talk about: * How sequels allow for the creation of new communities * How sequels ‘change your investment in fandom’ * How we’re huge hypocrites And more! All in under thirty minutes...
Are sequels good for Fandom?
July 31, 2020 17:37 - 23 minutes - 16 MBInspired by our upcoming charity marathon, the Race Against Time, we’re back to talking about sequels and how they change fandom. A fandom can live off of very little material (e.g. Reboot, Chrono Trigger) … but what happens when there is a sequel? Is that a good thing? In particular, we talk about: * How sequels allow for the creation of new communities * How sequels ‘change your investment in fandom’ * How we’re huge hypocrites And more! All in under thirty minutes. Plus, we’re on...
Where does fandom end?
July 17, 2020 17:37 - 25 minutes - 17.5 MBWhat happens 30 years after a TV show finishes? Is the fandom … over? What is the relationship between a series ending and a fandom ending? And what happens if the creator turns out to be an _awful_ person. This week it’s all over as we talk about the role and effect of endings in fandom… and in life? In particular, we talk about: * How the peak of a fandom may have already passed by the time you get there * How fandoms connect people through time, even when they do end * How endings…...
Where does fandom end?
July 17, 2020 17:37 - 25 minutes - 17.5 MBWhat happens 30 years after a TV show finishes? Is the fandom … over? What is the relationship between a series ending and a fandom ending? And what happens if the creator turns out to be an _awful_ person. This week it’s all over as we talk about the role and effect of endings in fandom… and in life? In particular, we talk about: * How the peak of a fandom may have already passed by the time you get there * How fandoms connect people through time, even when they do end...
Does fandom belong to the stans?
July 03, 2020 17:37 - 19 minutes - 13.6 MBIt’s all coming together people: the role of the artist, problematic works / creators, media criticism, consumerism and capitalism… and at the heart of it? Stans. As far as fandom goes, is it the stans who rule the roost? And is that for the better… or for the worse?! In particular, we talk about: * Take inflation and how hyperbole often destroys opportunity for nuance * The unfortunate zero-sum game that fandom can sometimes be, in particular when consumerism is involved * The role t...
Does fandom belong to the stans?
July 03, 2020 17:37 - 19 minutes - 13.6 MBIt’s all coming together people: the role of the artist, problematic works / creators, media criticism, consumerism and capitalism… and at the heart of it? Stans. As far as fandom goes, is it the stans who rule the roost? And is that for the better… or for the worse?! In particular, we talk about: * Take inflation and how hyperbole often destroys opportunity for nuance * The unfortunate zero-sum game that fandom can sometimes be, in particular when consumerism is involv...
Should fandoms be political? (Yes)
June 19, 2020 17:37 - 18 minutes - 12.5 MBEverything you consume is political; 100%! _It cannot be avoided_ and, really, that point shouldn’t be avoided _anyway_! Why then do people insist that the fandoms and media that they participate in be apolitical? This week, we’ve definitely got things to say! In particular, we talk about: * How media normalizes certain behaviours and ideas, and makes them the default experience * How politics is often used as a shield to deflect from critical examination of media and fandom * The pri...
Should fandoms be political? (Yes)
June 19, 2020 17:37 - 18 minutes - 12.5 MBEverything you consume is political; 100%! _It cannot be avoided_ and, really, that point shouldn’t be avoided _anyway_! Why then do people insist that the fandoms and media that they participate in be apolitical? This week, we’ve definitely got things to say! In particular, we talk about: * How media normalizes certain behaviours and ideas, and makes them the default experience * How politics is often used as a shield to deflect from critical examination of media and f...
Can we cut it out with the remakes?!
June 06, 2020 15:28 - 23 minutes - 16.1 MBAre you ready for the next… Labyrinth? _Stripes_?! Who is coming up with these remakes, and why can’t we get new material? This week, we’re talking all about the world of fandom, adaptations, reboots, and so on! In particular, we talk about: * How money is an important contributor in the sustainability and creation of remakes (and how franchises never die as a result) * Where reboots and remakes are beneficial, especially when providing a modern take on dated material (and bringing up i...
Can we cut it out with the remakes?!
June 06, 2020 15:28 - 23 minutes - 16.1 MBAre you ready for the next… Labyrinth? _Stripes_?! Who is coming up with these remakes, and why can’t we get new material? This week, we’re talking all about the world of fandom, adaptations, reboots, and so on! In particular, we talk about: * How money is an important contributor in the sustainability and creation of remakes (and how franchises never die as a result) * Where reboots and remakes are beneficial, especially when providing a modern take on dated material (...
Do fans need to meet face-to-face?
May 22, 2020 17:37 - 22 minutes - 15.5 MBWith the world in the middle of a global pandemic, it’s time to try to answer the question, as fans, do we _need_ to meet face to face? While it goes without saying that we don’t _have_ to meet face to face… how does that change the wide world of fandom? In particular, we talk about: * The limitations of online communication, including the role that conventions and other events play in creating semi-private spaces? * How different forms of communication use different ba...
Do fans need to meet face-to-face?
May 22, 2020 17:37 - 22 minutes - 15.5 MBWith the world in the middle of a global pandemic, it’s time to try to answer the question, as fans, do we _need_ to meet face to face? While it goes without saying that we don’t _have_ to meet face to face… how does that change the wide world of fandom? In particular, we talk about: * The limitations of online communication, including the role that conventions and other events play in creating semi-private spaces? * How different forms of communication use different bandwidth, or more ...
Should we cry over anime boys?
May 08, 2020 17:37 - 19 minutes - 13.5 MBShould we get emotionally attached to fictional characters? Of course we do, intentionally or not… but _should_ we? No guarantees that we get anywhere near addressing that, but we definitely dig into how and why people get attached to characters (for good reasons… and for reasons)! In particular, we talk about: * The (non-)distinction between fictional and real characters… and real people? * How writing has gotten better, and how people can relate to even villains * H...
Should we cry over anime boys?
May 08, 2020 17:37 - 19 minutes - 13.5 MBShould we get emotionally attached to fictional characters? Of course we do, intentionally or not… but _should_ we? No guarantees that we get anywhere near addressing that, but we definitely dig into how and why people get attached to characters (for good reasons… and for reasons)! In particular, we talk about: * The (non-)distinction between fictional and real characters… and real people? * How writing has gotten better, and how people can relate to even villains * How people can exe...
SPOILER ALERT
April 24, 2020 17:35 - 22 minutes - 15.5 MBSpoiler alert: You’ve been warned! We could spoil literally anything! That actor you like? They’re in this! That plot twist? Revealed! Deep lore?! … Probably? In all seriousness, we’re talking about what exactly _are_ spoilers, and how they impact people’s experience with the media that they consume (and, in general, how people perceive media). In particular, we talk about: * The (non-)importance of _the twist_ in modern storytelling * You can only experience something once… or can you...
SPOILER ALERT
April 24, 2020 17:35 - 22 minutes - 15.5 MBSpoiler alert: You’ve been warned! We could spoil literally anything! That actor you like? They’re in this! That plot twist? Revealed! Deep lore?! … Probably? In all seriousness, we’re talking about what exactly _are_ spoilers, and how they impact people’s experience with the media that they consume (and, in general, how people perceive media). In particular, we talk about: * The (non-)importance of _the twist_ in modern storytelling * You can only experience something...
Is fandom a religion?
April 10, 2020 17:35 - 24 minutes - 16.9 MBThe signs are all there, people! Have you heard the good word (of Firefly)? May the force be with you (and also with you)! Though there’re lots of superficial connections between fandom and religion, could there be a stronger link? Some sort of… divine connection? In this episode, we’re all over the place, including: * The appropriation of language from other sources (e.g. canonization) * Fandom filing the role of community and providing hope and meaning * Tons of superficial (?) conn...
Is fandom a religion?
April 10, 2020 17:35 - 24 minutes - 16.9 MBThe signs are all there, people! Have you heard the good word (of Firefly)? May the force be with you (and also with you)! Though there’re lots of superficial connections between fandom and religion, could there be a stronger link? Some sort of… divine connection? In this episode, we’re all over the place, including: * The appropriation of language from other sources (e.g. canonization) * Fandom filing the role of community and providing hope and meaning * Tons of sup...
Fanthropological World - Philatelists’ Stamp of Approval!
April 01, 2020 15:10 - 11 minutes - 7.85 MBTune in to our totally real television show! On this week’s episode, Shakespeare and Nick Frye (the fandom guy) really dig into fans of stamp collecting, and the fascinating history of the hobby and unique origins of its name (philately). Oh drat, looks like Shakespeare is going back to jail again
Fanthropological World - Philatelists’ Stamp of Approval!
April 01, 2020 15:10 - 11 minutes - 7.85 MBTune in to our totally real television show! On this week’s episode, Shakespeare and Nick Frye (the fandom guy) really dig into fans of stamp collecting, and the fascinating history of the hobby and unique origins of its name (philately). Oh drat, looks like Shakespeare is going back to jail again
Is fandom a key part of our identity?
March 27, 2020 17:35 - 21 minutes - 14.7 MBFandom has changed a lot, and over time has gone from something on the fringe of society to the forefront. Does that also mean that fandom has moved towards a key part, an integral piece of people’s personal identity? In this episode, we dig a bit about representation and self-identification as well as: * What does being a fan of something even mean?! * The (non) importance of level of participation in (self) identification * Conversations that are strangely lacking s...
Is fandom a key part of our identity?
March 27, 2020 17:35 - 21 minutes - 14.7 MBFandom has changed a lot, and over time has gone from something on the fringe of society to the forefront. Does that also mean that fandom has moved towards a key part, an integral piece of people’s personal identity? In this episode, we dig a bit about representation and self-identification as well as: * What does being a fan of something even mean?! * The (non) importance of level of participation in (self) identification * Conversations that are strangely lacking self-awareness abo...
Who needs canon, anyway?
March 13, 2020 17:35 - 29 minutes - 20.3 MBIt’s fair to say that fans can take things too far, right? To the point of taking certain facts of a series and canonizing (a _biblical_ term) them, deciding which elements are ‘right’ and ‘wrong’? Or even mixing up canon and tradition and requiring long-running media to follow old rules because that’s the way it’s always been! In this episode, we dig a bit into what canon means, in fandom, and try to answer the question… as fans, who needs canon, anyway? Also covering topics as: * Curati...
Who needs canon, anyway?
March 13, 2020 17:35 - 29 minutes - 20.3 MBIt’s fair to say that fans can take things too far, right? To the point of taking certain facts of a series and canonizing (a _biblical_ term) them, deciding which elements are ‘right’ and ‘wrong’? Or even mixing up canon and tradition and requiring long-running media to follow old rules because that’s the way it’s always been! In this episode, we dig a bit into what canon means, in fandom, and try to answer the question… as fans, who needs canon, anyway? Also covering topic...
What makes a good tabletop experience?
February 28, 2020 18:35 - 28 minutes - 19.9 MBCombined, we’ve been playing tabletop games (let’s admit it, mostly Dungeons and Dragons) for decades, but what is it about a game that takes it from a good one, to a great one? We try to answer the question “what makes a great tabletop experience?” (And the answer _isn’t_ everyone starting on time… though it should be!). We cover… * The lack of importance of verisimilitude * The importance of not know what to expect * The importance of exploration ...And more! ## Episode Outline **...
What makes a good tabletop experience?
February 28, 2020 18:35 - 28 minutes - 19.9 MBCombined, we’ve been playing tabletop games (let’s admit it, mostly Dungeons and Dragons) for decades, but what is it about a game that takes it from a good one, to a great one? We try to answer the question “what makes a great tabletop experience?” (And the answer _isn’t_ everyone starting on time… though it should be!). We cover… * The lack of importance of verisimilitude * The importance of not know what to expect * The importance of exploration ...And more! ## Ep...
Are you too old for this?
February 14, 2020 18:35 - 21 minutes - 14.8 MBHopefully, the phrase “Aren’t you too old for this?” has come up less and less as time goes on… but it still comes up! We dig into what it even means to be too old for fandom! * Why do people try to relive their childhood (and is it just nostalgia)? * Is it even a bad thing to be a fan of things as an adult? * Why is it a problem to have fun as an adult? And a lot more! All in under 30 minutes! ## Where can I get updates? If you want to follow us on social media, we...
Are you too old for this?
February 14, 2020 18:35 - 21 minutes - 14.8 MBHopefully, the phrase “Aren’t you too old for this?” has come up less and less as time goes on… but it still comes up! We dig into what it even means to be too old for fandom! * Why do people try to relive their childhood (and is it just nostalgia)? * Is it even a bad thing to be a fan of things as an adult? * Why is it a problem to have fun as an adult? And a lot more! All in under 30 minutes! ## Where can I get updates? If you want to follow us on social media, we’ve got you cover...
Is it ok to be a fan of bad things?
February 01, 2020 00:08 - 22 minutes - 15.7 MBNew year, new format, new episode! This week, we ask the question “Is it ok to be a fan of bad things?”. Disregarding what _bad_ means, we dig into: * Solidarity in fans of bad media * Bad media as a metaphor for life * Bad media as a references for good media And a lot more! All in under 30 minutes! ## Where can I get updates? If you want to follow us on social media, we’ve got you covered: * Facebook: [facebook.com/fanthropological](https://facebook.com/fanthropological) * Tw...
Is it ok to be a fan of bad things?
February 01, 2020 00:08 - 22 minutes - 15.7 MBNew year, new format, new episode! This week, we ask the question “Is it ok to be a fan of bad things?”. Disregarding what _bad_ means, we dig into: * Solidarity in fans of bad media * Bad media as a metaphor for life * Bad media as a references for good media And a lot more! All in under 30 minutes! ## Where can I get updates? If you want to follow us on social media, we’ve got you covered: * Facebook: [facebook.com/fanthropological](https://facebook.com/fanthro...
Marvel Cinematic Universe - The Endgame of Fandoms?
December 23, 2019 15:58 - 50 minutes - 35 MBHow the heck do you summarize a fandom about eleven years of films… themselves spanning twenty-three movies so far?! We’ve reached the endgame of this infinity war of fandoms, folks… and it’s time to put everything in perfect balance. ## Episode Outline **Topics:** Representation in media, fan entitlement, discrimination in fandom, death of the author, authorial intent, the role of fandom in creative works, cinema as a story vs cinema as an experience. ## Where can I get updates? If you w...
Marvel Cinematic Universe - The Endgame of Fandoms?
December 23, 2019 15:58 - 50 minutes - 35 MBHow the heck do you summarize a fandom about eleven years of films… themselves spanning twenty-three movies so far?! We’ve reached the endgame of this infinity war of fandoms, folks… and it’s time to put everything in perfect balance. ## Episode Outline **Topics:** Representation in media, fan entitlement, discrimination in fandom, death of the author, authorial intent, the role of fandom in creative works, cinema as a story vs cinema as an experience. ## Where can I get u...
Steven Universe - They’re … Space Rocks!
December 16, 2019 01:03 - 56 minutes - 38.7 MBHere we are in the future... and talking about the lessons, culture, and fandom of Steven and the Crystal Gems! Why is it so popular, especially among other contemporary animations? _“Steven Universe is an American animated television series created by Rebecca Sugar for Cartoon Network. It is Cartoon Network's first animated series to be created solely by a woman. It is the coming-of-age story of a young boy, Steven Universe (voiced by Zach Callison), who lives with the Crystal Gems—magical,...
Steven Universe - They’re … Space Rocks!
December 16, 2019 01:03 - 56 minutes - 38.7 MBHere we are in the future... and talking about the lessons, culture, and fandom of Steven and the Crystal Gems! Why is it so popular, especially among other contemporary animations? _“Steven Universe is an American animated television series created by Rebecca Sugar for Cartoon Network. It is Cartoon Network's first animated series to be created solely by a woman. It is the coming-of-age story of a young boy, Steven Universe (voiced by Zach Callison), who lives with the Crys...
Furries - The Tame and the Feral with Sarah WaterRaven
December 07, 2019 15:18 - 1 hour - 42.6 MB# Description To help us with her insight into the very dense and complex fandom that is the Furry Community, we have author and artist Sarah WaterRaven with us on this episode. Together we discover how people come to the community, why they leave, and what some of the bright spots are in this often stigmatized fandom. And for the extra curious, here's a list of links to furry artists, interviews, and more: [http://bit.ly/FurryThings/](http://bit.ly/FurryThings) Sarah can be found over at ...
Furries - The Tame and the Feral with Sarah WaterRaven
December 07, 2019 15:18 - 1 hour - 42.6 MB# Description To help us with her insight into the very dense and complex fandom that is the Furry Community, we have author and artist Sarah WaterRaven with us on this episode. Together we discover how people come to the community, why they leave, and what some of the bright spots are in this often stigmatized fandom. And for the extra curious, here's a list of links to furry artists, interviews, and more: [http://bit.ly/FurryThings/](http://bit.ly/FurryThings) Sarah can ...
Critical Role - When People Cosplay Your OC
December 01, 2019 03:51 - 1 hour - 42.2 MB“Critical Role is an American web series in which a group of professional voice actors play Dungeons & Dragons. The show started streaming in March 2015, partway through the cast's first campaign” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Role](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Role) \ \ Fandom Facts * Holy **crap** Critical Role is popular: is is the most popular it has ever been (aside from March 2019), but also, its popularity coincides with a [massive increase in p...
Critical Role - When People Cosplay Your OC
December 01, 2019 03:51 - 1 hour - 42.2 MB“Critical Role is an American web series in which a group of professional voice actors play Dungeons & Dragons. The show started streaming in March 2015, partway through the cast's first campaign” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Role](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Role) \ \ Fandom Facts * Holy **crap** Critical Role is popular: is is the most popular it has ever been (aside from March 2019), but also, its popularity coincides with a [massive increase in popularity in Dung...
Minisode: Are You A Good Fan?
June 14, 2019 04:00 - 21 minutes - 14.7 MBThis subject of this week's minisode turns inwards as the Nicks ask themselves if they consider themselves a good fan and break down what being a good fan even means ## What is the Race Against Time? The Race Against Time is our annual charity livestreaming marathon where we get as many endings as possible in Chrono Trigger to raise money [for the Alzheimer Society of Canada](https://alzheimer.ca/)! This year’s event will be August 10 and 11th from noon until midnight each ...
Minisode: Are You A Good Fan?
June 14, 2019 04:00 - 21 minutes - 14.7 MBThis subject of this week's minisode turns inwards as the Nicks ask themselves if they consider themselves a good fan and break down what being a good fan even means ## What is the Race Against Time? The Race Against Time is our annual charity livestreaming marathon where we get as many endings as possible in Chrono Trigger to raise money [for the Alzheimer Society of Canada](https://alzheimer.ca/)! This year’s event will be August 10 and 11th from noon until midnight each day. This year, w...
Minisode: Are Retrogamers missing out?
June 08, 2019 01:00 - 24 minutes - 17 MBAre retro gamers missing out on the newest, hippest games or are they right to dig deep into the style that they love? The Nicks dive into the breadth, depth and philosophy of getting into a niche! ## What is the Race Against Time? The Race Against Time is our annual charity livestreaming marathon where we get as many endings as possible in Chrono Trigger to raise money [for the Alzheimer Society of Canada](https://alzheimer.ca/)! This year’s event will be August 10 and 11th from noon until...
Minisode: Are Retrogamers missing out?
June 08, 2019 01:00 - 24 minutes - 17 MBAre retro gamers missing out on the newest, hippest games or are they right to dig deep into the style that they love? The Nicks dive into the breadth, depth and philosophy of getting into a niche! ## What is the Race Against Time? The Race Against Time is our annual charity livestreaming marathon where we get as many endings as possible in Chrono Trigger to raise money [for the Alzheimer Society of Canada](https://alzheimer.ca/)! This year’s event will be August 10 and 11t...
Minisode: What are cons missing?
May 31, 2019 17:35 - 21 minutes - 14.8 MBAfter nearly 20 years of con-going, and collectively well over 40 different conventions been attended, what kinds of things are missing from conventions (anime, sci-fi, comic, or otherwise), anyway? ## What is the Race Against Time? The Race Against Time is our annual charity livestreaming marathon where we get as many endings as possible in Chrono Trigger to raise money [for the Alzheimer Society of Canada](https://alzheimer.ca/)! This year’s event will be August 10 and 11th from noon unti...
Minisode: What are cons missing?
May 31, 2019 17:35 - 21 minutes - 14.8 MBAfter nearly 20 years of con-going, and collectively well over 40 different conventions been attended, what kinds of things are missing from conventions (anime, sci-fi, comic, or otherwise), anyway? ## What is the Race Against Time? The Race Against Time is our annual charity livestreaming marathon where we get as many endings as possible in Chrono Trigger to raise money [for the Alzheimer Society of Canada](https://alzheimer.ca/)! This year’s event will be August 10 and 11...