Community first product development with Dan

Links to the things we talked about

Clipps - A podcast discovery service that will soon allow you to create audio clips of your favorite segments - https://clip.ps

Caster Community - A community of podcasters and podcast enthusiasts - https://castercommunity.com

CasterKit - A list of resources for podcasters - https://casterkit.com

Dan's twitter - @DanSchoonmaker

Dan's podcast - https://plinkhq.com/i/1506783935

Information about Community Finder:

Community Finder - https://community-finder.co

My twitter - https://twitter.com/angrigoryan__
Transcription:

Anna: Hey everyone. Thank you for joining the Community Finder podcast. Today I'm recording the third episode and I have a very interesting guest for you. I asked Dan from the Caster community to join me today. As we have a lot of things in common, like we're both software engineers and we both want to create products for content creators and make our lives a bit easier.

Hello, Dan, how are you? 

Dan: I'm great. How are you? 

Anna: I'm great. Thank you. So for everyone who is listening, please tell us a bit about yourself. 

Dan: Yeah, sure. So I, as you said, am a software engineer . I graduated,  university in 2010. So it's been about 10 years of working at various size companies from a big company, like IBM to small startups at this point.

And yeah, I mean, really just since the, you know, coronavirus pandemic started. I was looking for things to do and getting into podcasting and community building was one of those things. 

Anna: Yeah, Coronavirus really stopped a lot of projects for us. For example, I left my job to do my part, to pursue my personal projects on April 1st, when everyone was shouting down.

And that was quite frustrating for me. 

 Dan: Yep. It definitely turned the world on its head.

Anna: Yeah, especially right now for content creators when they have a lot of uncertainty in their lives. And right now it's an uncertainty and on top of them uncertainty, I guess. 

Dan: Yeah, definitely. So it was weird because my girlfriend and I had both been into podcasting, and she wanted to start a podcast and I was trying to kind of help her out and show her the way and.

Really there weren't that many great resources. There were known resources likeReddit and stuff, and then various courses that you could pay for it. And we just had a hard time figuring out where to start. So that's when I went on indiehackers and kind of started looking on there and then created my Slack community as a way to.

Bring podcasters together to help each other. 

Anna: Yeah. I actually recently joined your community as well, because I'm new to this too. As I mentioned, this is only the third episode and then it's [Caster Community] quite tiny. Yes? Only how many less than a hundred people. 

Dan: Yeah. So we only, we have 39 right now.  and, but, so that was over the course of the last three weeks or so.

we've got up to 39. And then yeah. Now I'm kind of trying to figure out an expansion, how to grow the community. 

Anna:  Yeah.  You know what I liked most about your community, it was the jobs channel where everyone was posting jobs for another person. They were finding jobs for on the upwork about editing and podcast production so a person that lost their job could apply there. So,  I kind of felt that community vibe being there. So everyone is trying to help another one. And it was just interesting how this small community just cooking inside. 

Dan: Yeah. Now the thing I like the most is that even though we're small, it's a very active community and everyone is very,  looking to help each other out and help each other grow.

Which is actually kind of delaying my expansion because I'm trying to think how to grow it, but still keep that quality of members going. And like, like you said, the job board is a great example because people were posting. Just trying to help each other out in a time when a lot of people are losing their jobs and, you know, things are tough.

Anna: Yeah. As you said, that's also not a lot of resources on podcasting itself. I found a few good blogs, for example, transistor has a very good blog on podcasting and hosting in general, but I can find that quality material as well. And,  what do you think, are you going to produce some kind of content for you?

Community just to expand that a little bit into a newsletter or a blog or something like that. 

Dan: Yeah, it's been, so the podcasting space in general is really interesting because it has a group of very passionate people who listen to podcasts and a group of people who are passionate about creating podcasts.

But there's the like casual listeners still haven't really. I don't know, been invited into that, that group of the passionate people. So it's definitely interesting trying to expand it. So it's more open to the general population. whereas like something like YouTube did for, for video watching online, like podcasts until, you know, maybe Spotify or something.

Yeah. Spotify, they expand. So, yeah, I mean, I would like to, so one of the projects I've been working on for the last year is this website called clips. It's clip.ps And it's, it's a podcast discovery and listening website where,  you know, it's basically to try and make podcasting easier for people to discover podcasts that they're interested in.

So I think there I'll, I'll probably work on the blog part of it and content creation. 

Anna: Yeah. That's really interesting. Also I saw that you have a website called Caster kit for where people can find resources to build their podcasts. 

Dan: Yeah. So that's, that's like a, that's actually where I started with all of this.

I created that list first as my girlfriend and I were researching what tools to use. So I created that to kind of help people discover, you know, tools that were out there and hosting providers. That's what's hard is you need to find a hosting provider. You need to sometimes have a microphone, you need software, like we're using zoom.

So there's just like a lot of hurdles to get started in podcasting if you're creating them. And that's where caster kit kind of was my attempt to help people. Find those resources. And then the Castro community kind of just grew out of that. I figured people would want to discuss the tools and. A lot of people in the Caster community are also building tools for podcasters.

They're not just podcasting. 

Anna: Yeah. I also discovered your personal podcast when I was doing research for our conversation. And I heard only the first episode where you were talking about that. You are a software engineer. And sometimes it's really hard to build something as a software engineer because there's this dilemma you want to build something cool, but you never know if a person or other user would use that.

And I really empathized with that because I also have that kind of dilemma every time. Well, that's gonna be interesting to build a streaming service, a turbo user, actually. 

Dan: Yeah, definitely. So that's. Again, where I kind of made a mistake was I thought it would be easy to just create a, you know, something like Stitcher, a web based cast discovery tool.

and then as I started building it, I realized there's, you know, tens of like, and then maybe even hundreds of other tools out there that are similar. So then that's where I kind of took a step back and figured if I, if I learned how to create a podcast myself and I learned what the podcasting community needed.

I would kind of get a better idea of what tools to build, right. That's again, where caster kid and Caster community kind of came from was, it's kind of just a research slash , you know, building a community around something that eventually, well, those. Members of my community will become my first customers and whatever tool gets built.

Anna: Yeah. And I think a lot of people right now are focusing on building the audience and community first, because that's just a better way to validate the idea, I guess. And you also are onboarding your first customers. At the same time with this community building process, 

Dan: it's definitely the better approach.

And it took me until I was about 33 years old to realize that that was the better approach. 

Anna: Well, and that's, I'm 27 years old. So I think everything is coming with the age. 

Dan: Yeah. Well, yeah, like, like you said,  as I said to my podcast was. As a software engineer, sometimes you just want to build cool things, interesting software.

And you don't really think about, is anyone going to want this or use this? And that's kind of the dilemma that you have when you're, I guess, younger is you're just super excited that you can build anything and you don't actually think, does anyone want this? 

Anna: Yeah, I'm interested. What kinds of software do you use for your podcasting?

Dan: Yeah. So when I record, I use squatcast.fm.  it's very similar to zoom. One nice feature about it is that it records the audio on each person's personal computer and then it, it, so the quality is a little higher because if there's little blips in the internet,  there's not the audio doesn't cut out as frequently as I've noticed with zoom.

And then at the end of the episode, it uploads both of those files from each person's computer up to a single file or you can have them split out. 

Anna: Yeah. I actually wanted to use that software today with you, but I have a problem with them because I'm not using Google Chrome or I'm not using I won't Safari or Edge and they don't.

Dan: I actually just saw they posted about that. 

Anna: Yeah. That's really unfortunate for me, at least then.

Dan: Yeah, don't get me wrong. Zoom is definitely good, like, it's definitely good enough. And it's actually what my girlfriend still uses because she likes recording the video as well to have video content and squadcast. Doesn't record your video. It's just your audio. 

Anna: Yeah, but again, as you said, the internet connection sometimes can get in the way. That's sometimes very unfortunate when the conversation is really good and you don't want to miss anything. And here you go a glitch here you go. I'm interested to hear your opinion on the Joe Rogan case.

When he recently sold his podcasting contents to Spotify. 

Dan: Yeah, it's definitely interesting. Cause I think it moves podcasting into the big leagues,, because it shows that the content is quality enough that, you know, someone's willing to pay that much for it. It's curious to see what Spotify does because at least for me, when I do listen to Joe Rogan's podcast, but I actually watch it through YouTube.

So I'm curious to see if Spotify they've said they are going to have a video portion as well, which. I know they have some music videos here and there on Spotify, but I'm curious to see if this is their entry into the video space as well. 

Anna: I think they're going to do that because I don't know who shared that on Twitter, but I saw that they were building a video streaming service too, for podcasters, like their niche will be only podcasters.

And also they bought Anchor last year, I guess. Which is the free podcast hosting service. So they're cooking something up. 

Dan:  Yeah, definitely. I think people underestimate how big of an impact Anchor is on this whole thing, because they still keep it as its own separate product right now. But I, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if later this year they move anchor into maybe even the Spotify app.

So you can just record and publish your podcast all in one. You know, they really do become YouTube at that point.

Anna: That would be great. I don't like you too, but it's all because I watch one with you on one subject and their algorithm just starts to shove that topic in my face and my recommendations.

So if I want to find something interesting, I need diversity. I need to get to know other topics as well, and not just get here, get this, get this one video about, I dunno, fortnite that you watched two months ago. 

Dan: That's kind of the problem everyone says about, you know, social media in general is, you know, you don't always want to consume the same bubble of content.

Sometimes you want to branch outside of your. Initial comfort zone. Like, how are you, how are you ever going to learn diverse opinions? If you're only hearing the same, you know, a couple of people talk. 

Anna: So yeah, that's exactly my problem with them. That's why I will sign for the bedtime version of Spotify right away when they see that they're launching it. Yeah. And that was 

Dan: Sort of, well, sorry.  part of my thinking behind creating my clips product is that I wanted to make podcast discovery cause even on Spotify, I think their search algorithm is pretty bad right now. And I'm saying pretty bad, like that's me being polite.

I actually think it's horrible. But that was kind of my thinking there. I wanted to be able, so I don't have an iPhone, so I can't use Apple podcasts, which I know a lot of people use.  so when I went into Spotify to use it and I searched, I searched for, you know, topics I was interested in.

But like you said, with YouTube, then I only found a couple of shows that were around the same topics. So I really wanted to create something where. The idea is that people can clip out audio clips from their favorite episodes and share those. So then I could listen to, you know, just a clip of a podcast, be it like 30 seconds to a minute or whatever.

And then I can learn about that show and then potentially start following it. So it kind of creates a better discovery mechanism. 

Anna: Oh, that's quite interesting. So it will be just like a library of quotes from my favorite podcasts. 

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean more or less, that's what I hope it will eventually be, but you can listen to the whole episode, but then you can also.

Clip out the highlight reels and then other people can discover those. 

Anna: No, I, I really get that because sometimes it's a, let's say 50 minutes episode and you just want to share it with your friend, this key phrase that you learned from it, and it will be just whip, clip and share with you. 

Dan: Yeah, definitely. And, and part of me listening to Joe Rogan is what caused that. Because his episodes are two, three. 

Anna: Also, I love Tim Ferriss's podcast. Episodes are also like making a minimum one hour, I guess. 

Dan: Yeah. They are very long. Yeah. So he actually lives in Austin, Texas, like I do. 

Anna: Oh, have you had the chance to meet him?

Dan: I have, I've gone to his book signing, but, but anything beyond that? Yeah. Which one? The tools of Titans. 

Yes, it was, I think the tribe of mentors. Yeah, a good one.

Anna: Good one. Yeah. Here's the thing is the one thing is about Tim Ferris as a content creator, but I think he has one of the most successful blogs on the internet.

I think hundreds, thousands of more subscribers to the newsletter. 

Dan: Yeah. I mean his books and stuff and, you know, blog con, cause I think a lot of the blog content at this point is sort of based off his podcast. I haven't really looked in a while, but, but yeah, I know even his last two books right. Were kind of based on the podcast content.

But yeah, I mean, he's got a lot of great stuff in general. 

Anna: Yeah. Also I like Paul Jarvis, if you know who he is. 

Dan: I do. I don't actually,  Consume any of his content, but I do know who he is. 

Anna: Yeah. I use their analytics through privacy focused Phantom on the Olympics. I liked that. And also coming back to Joe Rogan, when I heard that he sold the content for a hundred million, I guess I was thinking we're so used to hearing this kind of numbers when startups are getting funding for startups are getting consumed by other startups, for example. And right now content is becoming the new startup because there's just a little difference. You need to promote it. You need to find your niche audience and you need to monetize it. Somehow. We want to go that route. So this will be a very changing experience in the content creation industry.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. I think actually, if you think about it, it kind of started with Netflix and they're creating original content because now everybody likes Apple TV, plus you have Hulu creating content. You have HBO obviously always created content, but now they're creating it more for their own streaming platform.

It started with them, I think. And now it's kind of shifting to what else can we do? 

Anna: Yeah, I guess I heard that Netflix is saying that their biggest competitor is sleep. 

Dan: Oh, that's funny. 

Anna: So I guess there are enough fighting for our sleep. 

Dan: Yeah. Well, I mean, with, with everyone home right now, they have no shortage of people watching 24 hours a day.

Anna: Yeah. Saving the world with listening to podcasts and sitting on your couch. 

Dan: Yeah. And podcasts because they don't have them. So I read an interesting thing about Spotify because a lot of their stuff is, you know, music that has labels and music labels and stuff behind it. They have to pay a ton of money out in royalties to all these labels.

Whereas podcasting, we don't have that, that middleman yet. So really there's, there's more money for both sides, both the podcaster and Spotify, because they don't have to, you know, people who I'm sure they'll insert ads into Joe Rogan's podcast and people who listened to that Spotify won't have to pay royalties out to a music label.

Anna: yeah, actually Anchor, I think is, was the first platform that introduced that sponsorship clips. You could basically just apply for a sponsorship and you will get one. From their internal pool of advertisers, I guess.

Dan: Yeah. The way Anchor does it is definitely interesting. Who do you use to host your 

Anna: I'm actually using transistor.

Oh, cool. Yes. So do I? 

Anna: Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, I like buying stuff from other content creators that they built for themselves to solve their initial problem. And. I think that's why I started to, I, at first I was following Justin Jackson, the person that's great as a transistor. And then I slowly understood why he'd be the transistor in the first place.

And when I registered, it was just the perfect place for me as a content creator, as a starting content creator.

Dan: Yeah, I agree with, I like to support other people who are kind of doing their own independent thing. Yeah. Like Justin and John, the people who make transistor art, just two normal people who are yeah.

 You know, Bill's building this super successful company. It's cool to support that. Yeah. 

Anna: And especially right now, as I heard that advertisers are pulling away from YouTube and the cost per click is lower. I think by 30% at least supporting each other as content creators, it's a, it's the powerful message that we don't need that many advertisers.

We just need each other as a community and we can continue to do what we love. 

Dan: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Justin has some interesting thoughts on how Amazon, I don't know if you saw that,

Anna: but I'm boycotting Amazon basically. 

Dan: Yeah. I mean, I try my best to support again, just smaller, local, not even just local, but just independent retailers rather than, you know, big corporations, but, and that's also why I use squadcast just kind of going back to that, cause they're just, you know, members of that indiehackers community,

Anna: Yeah I've never seen them. 

Dan: Yeah. I mean, I don't know how active they are. It's one of those things where as your product gets more successful, you have less time to kind of interact with the community, I think. But yeah, I mean, compared to using a bigger thing, like YouTube or, or zoom or Skype, like. If I'm going to pay money, I'd rather give it to some smaller independent people. 

Anna: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I'm also just thinking about all of the people that are just small shops and they opened their Amazon. You can open an Amazon shop there.

Yes. I guess I'm just guessing here. And people are now thinking Amazon and they don't get that much. 

Dan:  Yeah. That's I guess that's definitely one disadvantage, but I think a lot of those shops, people who sell through Amazon probably have their own side website as well, that, you know, Amazon probably takes such a big cut.

Anna: Yeah, actually, that can be a new marketplace building side shops for people actually Facebook did it one week ago. 

Dan: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Shopify is definitely. Helped in that area, but, but again, they're still probably taking a cut that's 

Anna:  What do you think about taking the cut? I'm thinking about making a subscription plan. If you build that and they think just make a subscription plan and. Upgrading that as you go, I don't know. I just, I don't like the transaction fee and then go up to other transaction fees. For example, Stripe or PayPal. You're already given that much giving again, I just don't like that person. 

Dan: Yeah, it's, it's interesting because you, if you're paying per transaction, if you don't have any transactions, you're not paying money.

Whereas if you have a subscription, you know, I don't want to pay for a $30 a month. Shopify store. If I don't sell anything. So I'd almost at that point rather than just give them that makes sense.

Anna: Yeah, I agree on that. That makes sense too. 

Dan: So I guess it depends on your size and how well you're selling.

Anna: Yeah. Depends on the audience you have on the community. Kind of circling back to everything. Everything is connected. So you're just right now, a full time content creator in your community. I mean, 

Dan: I'm a full time software engineer at a startup here in Austin. But, but yeah, I mean, in my spare time, I, yeah, I mean, I do a lot of work on the community.

I've kind of taken a step back from building clips and I, I want to kind of understand what people, what the podcasts kind of industry wants. 

Anna:  Yeah, that's kind of one of the problems I myself have as well, because I'm an, I want to build a Community Finder from scratch. Right. It's right now it's posted on that flow, but I'm really into that research phase where I want to know.

What to build and how to do it in a better way. But the thing is you don't there. It's really hard to find the balance. Between coding and actually doing the business stuff. I just right now understand why there are always two people, one business person and one software engineer, because if you do everything alone, it's just a lot of work and a lot of focus.

Dan: Yeah. That's definitely an issue I've had to overcome is. The thing I really love is coding,  doing the content creation and the networking.  I've tried my best to use indiehackers as that platform where I create content and kind of, I don't know, I guess this document, my journey is what a lot of people call it.

Yeah. That I say what I'm doing with my podcast and with my community.  But yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, what I wish I was doing was just building software. But unfortunately that's like, we've been saying that's not always what that's, 

Anna: That's the dilemma of being a software engineer. Yes, you can build anything 

Dan: you want but who knows who will buy it? 

Yeah. And that's, I don't know. Do you listen to Justin Jackson's podcast? 

Anna: Sometimes I listen to his podcast and I also have his book marketing for developers. Oh, actually I did not know about it. Yeah. He has input. I instantly book. I think it's not a hard copy. It's a very interesting read. 

Dan: Yeah. So his podcast talks a lot about, I think what you were touching on is like his, his cofounder is the developer. He's kind of the marketing kind of business person. So they find that kind of group of people to work together and okay. Kind of balance out is I guess, something that I've considered doing.

Anna: Yeah, that's it to go help for sure. Because right if you are running solo, it can take you so much, but, one day you will need to scale and you got to know how much you can do on yourself, by yourself at that point of time. So finding the right partner in crime, I guess, is very crucial, especially right now.

Dan: And then you have all the issues of trying to communicate and, and talk to each other about what you're working on. So there's, there's other issues in that. 

Anna: Yeah. Yeah. Just minor issues. Like communication,

Dan:  Starting a successful business. It's hard. Yeah. 

Anna:  Who knows who in your 2020 or okay. This pandemic. 

Well, then it was very interesting to talk to you. I think we have touched on a lot of times is content creation. And so it's really an engineering cycle. That's where both spiral around. 

Dan: Yeah, definitely. It was really great talking to you and meeting you.

Anna: wish you all the best for your startup and Caster community. And I will be very active there because I'm just on my third episode and I don't know what I'm doing. 

Okay. Sounds good. I'll have to listen to your,  your podcasts and check it out.