How She Went From Writing Quests For Games to Helping Security Companies Manage Threats

Joining us is Natalie Doran, CEO and co-founder of Lytehouse, which does manages threat detection for security control centres.

Learn about Natalie's journey from through the world of startups and social entrepreneurship to her current startup, Lytehouse.

She shares her insights and experiences on:
- the importance of co-founder fit, in terms of skills as well as alignment
- working on startups with a mission driven by social impact
- how she tried to validate a few prior startup ideas
- her experience meeting her co-founder Jean-Vicente De Carvalho, bonding with him, and having a good skills match
- how she validated the idea that morphed into Lytehouse by sitting down with security personnel and observing their workflows
- self-care and making time for yourself when building a company.

Favourite books:
Leaders Eat Last
Picture of Dorian Gray

Favourite tool:
G-Suite
HubSpot CRM

https://www.lyte-house.com/

nterviewed three amazing entrepreneurs on how they are starting and building their companies in this stressful climate. I just wanted to apologize in advance for the audio quality of these first three episodes.

I fixed my microphone settings so that starting from episode four onwards, my voice should be much clearer, but for the time being, please bear with me and I hope the content more than pays off for the audio.  thank you.

And let's gaze into the Abyss together.

welcome to Abyss Gazing. I'm your host Alvin Leong, and joining me today is Natalie Doran, the co founder and CEO of Lytehouse, a security control center for managed threat detection using machine learning.

An 

AI 

Natalie will tell us about her journey into entrepreneurship and startups  the lessons she learned from her first startups and how she applied them to building Lytehouse. The challenges she's facing, we're going Lytehouse and [00:01:00] where she's going to be. So, Natalie, are you ready to get started? 

Natalie: Okay.

Alvin: So Natalie and I both knew each other from the entrepreneur first program, but before that she's from the UK. She graduated back in 2014 and then since then she has been working in various roles in Singapore. So Natalie , can you tell us a bit about how you moved to Singapore?

Like what made you decide to move to Singapore. 

Natalie: Really the move to Singapore was not as strategic or as calculated as I'd like to pretend it is. Um, actually the idea to move to Singapore really came from. Uh, I was, uh, in the, in the UK, in the West Midlands where I'm from, small village. I came out of university, the English literature degree and creative writing.

And sort of ended university hit the ground running. I was like, I'm going to go and change the world and I'm going to do one of these things. And then people basically said, well, with an English [00:02:00] degree you can become a teacher or you can become a journalist. I was like, and then? And they're like, nah, that's good.

It's kind of it. You can teach it well, you can be a journalist. I was like, well, okay, well, neither of those things really works for me. And so I was really struggling to find. Like my niche or like the area that I can really get passionate about. And, uh, you know, some, some family members, like family, family of my dad's family, uh, had been in Singapore for over 16 years, I think it is now.

Um, and so they say, you know, why don't you try Singapore. It's in need of creatives. It's a need of people with content. And, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a far cry from teeny tiny village in the West Midlands. So pretty much overnight I agree to move. But I honestly, hands in the air, didn't know where Singapore was on a map until I got hit.

And I went, I didn't even put them in stories. I was just like, I have to leave. I have to go start a new life. [00:03:00] And so I kind of did that. And, um. Kind of arrived and when, okay, what, what do I, what do I do now? So the idea was never initially I'm going to go be an entrepreneur. It was, I need to find a job in a country that I know nothing about.

And I was 23 at the time. And I just went to every networking event I could find every single one. And, uh, ended up meeting a guy who told me he was building a startup. It was a social impact game for kids that would enable them to contribute to real causes in the real world with game play. And, uh, I sort of fell in love with the mission.

Volunteering had been a part of my life since I was very little. And so, uh, impact and the human elements of a business really inspired me and they were also looking for someone else. The content side. So a lead to the opportunity. I did six months of interning at various, uh, uh, ad agencies and, uh, some, uh, the American chamber of commerce.

So, so did a bit of [00:04:00] interning, but ultimately realized that I really wanted to try my hand at the start of game. So I joined them yet in end of 2015 and fell in love with startups from there. It hasn't been easy. Yeah, really, really not easy. Um, but I think I wouldn't change it for well, yeah. Okay. So 

Alvin: this social impact startup that you joined, it's called shiftrunner.

So I pulled up the 2015 version of the site.  I can share for those of you watching the video version, I'm going to share my screen. I loaded up the 2015 version of the 

Natalie: site so 

Alvin: we can go 

Natalie: like take a 

Alvin: trip back down memory lane. 

Natalie: Absolutely. Is this the, the a website for the game or for the company? So it's both is 

Alvin: the game was called  pandoonation 

Natalie: pandoo nation.

Yeah. Dot com. 

Alvin: Okay. Can you see my screen? 

Natalie: It is loading. So this was Shiftas a, as a company page. The [00:05:00] idea was that Pandoo nation, um, the game would contribute to the, uh, foundation. And the purpose behind, uh, the game was every game for kids is always like, kill the boss and you know, be the villain. And what we were going to do was create a game where.

Kids could take some ownership and responsibility. They could become more like global citizens. They can learn skills, but without joining an educational game, yeah, they would be able to, you know, take part. Um, take part with kids around the world in, in having a real impact, but also with being fun and engaging.

Not too literal. A lot of the games were impact focused at the time when like you're a refugee in, in Darfur and like runaway from the militia and you're like, okay, this is very intense for a very young child. So we wanted to make it a fun to see fun, well, that taught real values at very [00:06:00] discreetly, um, but also had the opportunity to be.

You know, um, a known, known kids entity, you know, rich characters and a full world and a lot of heart and soul went into it. And, uh, on the foundation side, the foundation was primarily based in the Philippines. We had a lot of different projects running there. Uh, everything from, you know, supporting a youth in prisons to education.

And the idea was that everything that the business did, it had one foot in impact. But also one foot in storytelling. So, you know, the, uh, the really interesting thing about, about game gaming is that, you know, there is a story arc, but you choose where you go. And we wanted to really bring that into lessons and learning for kids in that you add a story arc.

Can you be funny? Make it engaging and our characters to it. Not only is it more memorable, but you also get to learn in a, in a more fun way. So. Yeah, it was a, it was a great time, you know? 

Alvin: So looking [00:07:00] at, looking at the site, I guess I could see that they had this news release where the appointment you

Natalie: saw and what 

Alvin: do you remember like at this point? Like how far along were they were they, did they already have like the functioning game with players and, uh. 

Natalie: Yeah. So the point at which I joined the company, the company I've been running for a couple of years, um, and a lot of headway than need on the game.

It was a massively, mostly online games, so, and no G, which are by nature massive. And, uh, they kind of. The kind of product where it's never finished. And if, you know, kids who enjoy gaming, you know, when she started to play, you reach the age of the map very, very quickly. Um, so there was, there was a constant flow of capital going into, into development and obviously to be, you know, world-class game.

It takes world-class development and real world-class capital. So it, [00:08:00] um, when I joined the company, it had been in for a couple of years. When some really great ideas, a lot of the characters and some of the ideas around the world where we're in playing. And then when I joined, I started on news releases and press releases and then mu, uh, over the next year to working very closely with the development team in the UK.

To be able to bring the game to life. So I took the original story. Yeah. They'd be a, the founder. 

Alvin: You wrote the 

Natalie: appointment? I did. I did a shameless name at my press release. Um, and, uh, it was my job. Sir. Don't judge me, but, um, yeah, I, uh. Ended up going from press releases and content to moving forward into working with the team and, um, will building, which for me was, was the most amazing thing.

I mean, to be able to say, I, you know, I took a, it was almost like a [00:09:00] short story that the founder had written. Uh, with an idea of some of the characters that could be involved in as well. And then sort of took that with him and with the, the development team to really transform that into a fully fledged world with rules and magical objects and ships and a past, present future, um, and developed an animation series for that as well.

So it was a really, uh, escalated from. Press releases to do world building on that. It was, it was, it was great. And you know, it really inspired the creative in me on a daily basis. Although naming things is actually one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Naming things is a hard, um, you run out of words very quickly mean like 

Alvin: the objects in the world.

Natalie: Oh, exactly. You create a world of objects. And then you have to name them. There's got to be rules around them. You know, and kids are super smart. If you break the logic, they're gonna like lose all, like suspension of disbelief. They're getting it. What is this? So you have to [00:10:00] think about like, how can someone, if this object can do this and why would they use that?

It mean by blueprints and masterminding and like look like a mad woman for a few months to try to bring this story together. Um. But it was, it was great. And, uh, you know, it was, it was a really exciting, interesting time. Um, learn a lot. You're working closely with founders. It's something I hadn't done. It was my first real proper job out of university, then interning and so on.

So I really got a crash course instantly in. Fundraising and no warrant agreements and all these things I had no, no idea of. But also being part of those invested discussions, seeing, you know, how investors releasing, doing presentations, putting pitch decks together. We're finding the content and the message.

So it really wasn't very hands on sorta NBA in. I learned a lot of things and then a lot of things [00:11:00] on on good and bad sides. Um, but I think that's, that's true of any, any company you learn a lot. Um, and, uh, yeah, it was sort of towards the end of that company. Um, funds were, were, uh, were an issue and it was, it was towards that decline that, um, it had the idea for my own startup.

And after using that learning, I then I then went forward. Why 

Alvin: do you think that, uh, shift wrong and didn't really take off? Like what, happened to it in the end. 

Natalie: Yeah. I think, you know, it's, it's, they're there a couple of things I think, um. The one thing that was a takeaway for me was, um, his team. I think, uh, what I've learned and what Alvin, you'll know from, from EF is kind of drilled into us is edges and team, you know, um, be able to, you know, really lean on those edges.

I think there were a lot of talented people in that team. Um, but a lot of us were talented in similar [00:12:00] ways. Yeah. And so then there's bringing in new perspective or being able to have a more technical edge or you know. That that poses its own problems. Um, and I think, you know, a lot of time we had happened in the company before myself and the CTO joined.

Um, but I think it, you know, it was a incredible concept of a great team of people, just not the right fit, I think necessarily. Um, so that's one thing you told me about the team. Um, the other thing that was really interesting to me was product development. Um, I had a real hands on pod in that. When it came to game development.

Um, she's something, I never thought of a plank games, but I'd never actually thought about writing them. Um, but, but what was interesting, and again, it's something that I think you read everywhere when you read about like building. So, but it's something that's quite easy to lose is, um, you know, build something small fast.

You know, something that you can [00:13:00] sell. We'll have someone use as quickly as possible. It doesn't have to be. The, the big, the big, baddest thing. It doesn't have to be the end product. It's not gonna be the bells and whistles. I forget whose credit is, but they say, if you're not ashamed of your MVP, you have waited too long, you know, get, get something out and just get that feedback.

And that was one of the strongest lessons that I took away from that experience was, you know, um, there were always amazing ideas and, and all of this talent and all of this looking forward to this, this huge game. Um. But actually, you know, piece by piece would have enabled more learning along the way and been a management of that product development timeline.

So I think, yeah, it was, I think it was a real lesson for me, uh, by law, sort of build small and build up. Um, but yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting. And, you know, I think it's when a company, you know, at the time, I was a twin. [00:14:00] Five 26, um, at the time, you know, uh, you're working in startups, it's nose to the grindstone, you know, your head's just down, you know, full belief.

And that was one thing I could say about, you know, everyone who was in that company, it was just full belief and dedication to, you know, running at full speed. You know, your wing in a prayer and just like pushing forward to get through. And then, and then when those efforts don't actually come off when.

You know, the, the door is closed and it's like, you're starting to have these conversations about, you should be looking for other work or, you know, there's a chance we're probably not going to make X month there. You know, it's a very unique feeling to see a lot of work put in time, effort, money, you know, love into a product.

And then that not. See the light of day, you know what I mean? Then it never gets, and that was something that I found really hard, and I think over [00:15:00] those, you invested three years of your life, and now I realize that it's the real takeaway. What was the learnings, you know, the lessons, the network, and I, you know, I'll always be very grateful for that.

I think at the time it was just like, Oh my gosh, the sky is falling. Everything I've worked for is gone. Everything, everyone's falling out, you know, everything is, and so then you, all these words and terms that you've known, your liquidation, things that you've never had to really deal with the full become a reality.

And it really did teach me a lot. And it was around that time. As I said, I started. Thinking of, I can't, how can I take this and use it into a positive and channel some of my energy and creativity into building something, but I'm also passionate about and something that I can take the reins on. And that's when, uh, I sort of working on this corporate social responsibility plan, um, which faces any challenges as 

Alvin: well.

How would you start, uh, what was the initial seed behind this corporate [00:16:00] social responsibility idea. 

Natalie: So the scene was, and they've said volunteering. We, I mean, I'm not gonna say we were made to do it because then it's not volunteering. It's home forces you to do it. But we would kind of made to force to volunteer when we're a kids.

Um, my mom is very passionate about a disability and so we used to volunteer a lot at Sable home non village. And, uh. Volunteering throughout university and, and when I moved to Singapore, it just became something that I just wanted to adopt here as well. And as a way to sort of learn more about like the culture, I mean people and save something that I was like, okay, this is, this is something I want to do.

I want to started trying to find, okay, you know, I have some time now. You know, things aren't going as well and my day job, you know, I want to really do something, you know, channel something positive. Quick, I'll just go on Google and I'll find some thing. And I just found it so extremely difficult to know how to help, aware, to help.

I would send [00:17:00] endless emails like back and forth trying to figure out a date. Then you need to do this. And I just found it was just this logistical nightmare. And then I was like, how is anyone. You know, you're gonna find the time, the effort or the bandwidth put into helping on these charities is screaming out for time and talent.

So that was sort of the idea. And I'm like, okay, what if there was ways to make it super easy, making it as easy to book as a yoga class or bring these volunteers together and then reward them for their service in ways that help them as a person. And so that was the seed and, uh, with no technical expertise.

And no idea what anyone was doing. I a cutout little shapes of iPhones and then I put them on the floor and then I was like, this is the home screen. If I click here, I go there and basically, what would you call, there's a lot of frames, but I didn't know. I was like these, uh, Southern maps and build this whole like mad gram of like.

Where everything would go to, where it would lead to [00:18:00] then converted that into a hyperlinks PowerPoint. Then upgraded that into like Marvel. Um, the other, the other app, but a graded graded. It's then become something that felt like, okay, this seems like it's a real product. And then basically when anywhere I could get a meeting and not from the dorms, like, would you find this useful?

What would you change? Um. You know, is this something your company cares about? Is this something that you care about? Survey? All my friends went to all these charities, really just random about town. And then I learned about impact tech. Um, and they, uh, formerly known as tech for good and they became impact tech through a program.

And then it was sort of like a once a week evening crash course in startups, um, sort of the basics and then also sending some advice on positioning and customer segments and went to the team there. Which was great. Um, but at the same time, I was trying to run forward with my ideas. I F you know, I fully believed in this.

I was like, this is gonna be huge. I was getting great feedback [00:19:00] simultaneously managing the fact that the day job is crumbling beneath you. You have no savings, no money, and if the company falls, you have no visa. And it was like, what do I do? You know, you're just in this flux. He was like, okay, well I could just stop everything and go for a corporate job.

Well, I just keep running and hope I hit something. So I was like, all right. So just kept pushing and joined impact tag, as I said, did the program, which was great. But then one, a biggest huddle was that I got stuck in a wheel. A vicious cycle, which was, I had companies who said, we love this platform. We would, we would love to use it as soon as you have, you know, an MVP, you can show us, we'll happily sign.

I was like, great. Then I'd say, it's the investors. Hey, they just want an MVP to do that. I need money. And they were like, well, if they sign, we'll give you the money. It's like, but they weren't signed without the MVP, and they're like, well, we would, and I got stuck going round and round around. [00:20:00] Crazy. I was like.

No, I just needed, you know, a very small amount of money to do big things and I just couldn't raise it. Um, and that was really disheartening. It was, and it was a tough time and it was like, do I go back to UK? Don't give up on being in startups. Um, but some serendipitous circumstances, you know, uh, one of the charities that I've been speaking to introduce him to our village and these guys are doing something interesting.

It's in the impact space. It's not direct aim what you're doing. Um. Wanting to have a conversation. So, uh, after many sleepless nights, and I think a few gray hairs, um, ended up, you know, meeting our village and, uh, that's, that became the sort of next step in my startup life. 

Alvin: Yep. So our village, I, I've seen you actually appeared in a few like media releases with them.

Uh, back then, the messaging around them was a bit complicated. They say they're [00:21:00] doing something like a blockchain, a social responsibility thing. Now they're still around the site and it's actually become, I think they streamlined the messaging a lot more. So it's like a sharing about sharing your time and receiving time back, something like 

Natalie: that.

Hmm. . Yeah. So I, I joined, uh, owl village instead of being doing the gaming company and then tried to the corporate social responsibility and then, uh, met our village. And obviously all the time I found me screaming at me. He's going to get a real job, as they often do if you're in the store, but you bringing in a real job and have some financial security and you're like, Oh, that's okay.

Instead of my twenties I can wear it. So I was like, okay, maybe I'll join a startup that has. You know, um, kind of salvage team that didn't involve in those, quite a lot of people are very well funded and, uh, you know, uh, CEO huge accomplishments and, and me, [00:22:00] something I always looked for when joining a company was mentors in the company, um, particularly in startups.

Because as I say, you working with these people in the front line every day, um, so it makes sense to find 

Alvin: them. 

Natalie: Yeah. I think we would really close together. Um, it was really a frontline. Again, you know, all the hats, many jobs, and you, Peter know it today. You, you certainly went home, read about it, and led to tomorrow.

And the most prime example was in, on my first day, um, I joined, uh, I spend time, we're doing an ICA. You're in the blockchain route. We were pivoting as a company in the blockchain. Can you please edit the, the white paper?

First of all, what is this? Well, what is blockchain? Second of all, what are the white papers for blockchain gonna look like? And like three. What do you mean edit? I have know nothing about [00:23:00] anything to do with this company. So it really was a trial by fire on the first day. I know then being in the office till like 10:00 PM and I haven't been, I'm like talking away, like, what am I even doing?

And then you're like, do they think I'm, do they think I should know this? Or I used to have all these questions in my imposter. It was, it was a bizarre office. And I went home. I was like, mama, I'm really, I don't know, is this the right job for me? Um, but thankfully, you know, I do enjoy a challenge. So, um, jump straight into it.

And, um. Yeah, it started off again, a company is prior to me joining as, um, platform for individuals, um, to share any service, skill or errand using time instead of money, for example. And then I walk your dog, I get an hour as credit. I then use an hour credit thing going, let get Spanish lessons, and then that person takes that hour credit and then something else.

But the training of time. Um, there's a lot of applications in, you know, [00:24:00] charities, but also, you know, in sharing skills and, and sort of building better community. So that was what really drew it to me. You know, in each of those songs I've been in, they've been a real human on to all of them. And so that, that's what really appealed to me.

And a lot of the charges I've been speaking to you, we're really excited about it. So jumped in, um, jumped in in London, in the wall West of block chain. Uh, which way you would've seen a lot of the speaking and so on, because at the time, block chain was still the new kid on the block.

It was still bubble. Yeah. Bitcoin is still climbing. Everyone was like, Oh my gosh, we're all going to make a Juliana's. Um, and every conference you went to, everybody said that about whenever it was, whatever, something token something. Dot. IO was going to be the next whatever. And uh, so yeah, it was, it was an interesting time.

And so obviously you have to learn very quickly about what a complicated thing. I would say [00:25:00] still now, I probably know 70 to 80% of what I should know about that, to be honest, because it was a black hole, but you never got out of, but enough, enough to understand. And um, I liked the application of, you know, global time currency, you know, something that is equal for everybody and something that doesn't matter where you are in the world.

You could trade your time. And I thought that was really beautiful. Content. And I think particularly now, you know, what we're facing with, with jobs and Karuna, you know, people being able to, to use that time as a, as a, as, as well, to get the things that they need, kind of honks banks, the old barter system.

So it was something I've always kind of, it appeals to the hippie and me. So, uh, that's one of the reasons why, why joined them, but I think it was the pivot to, to blockchain. Obviously. It was, it was a whole new space. It's been a lot of time speaking in conferences, talking [00:26:00] to people, you know, people, we like the application of it just as we're about blockchain.

Yes. Even Japan, Japan, Korea, uh, Singapore obviously. Um, quite a few, quite a few. And I, I'd done some speaking in general on sort of impact and tech and so on. So kind of straight into this, but it was, um, quite nerve wracking sitting in front of a crowd of very technical people on a very technical issue, talking about something you don't know a huge amount of like amount about yet, but take it any strike and you just get up there and you do it.

And that, it was great. It was a really good reception to it. But I think at the time when. Uh, the ICO was happening, the market suddenly started tech taking a plummet, and that's when, you know, the, the golden bubble of people raising like 10 million, 20 million, 100 million in four days. You know, those were ending very rapidly and on a [00:27:00] weekly basis, the entire market was changing.

And then it's like, Oh, the bubbles burst. Oh, it's collapsing. And I think it, it was kind of like an accelerated version of the.com crash. You know, who was like  today everything's low. Oh no. But it's on the value gone into people's panic selling and the platform is going to be built on a theory IOM. So then that sort of, but not, so it's going down in value.

Then it's just like, people don't want to. Spend it on it, keep hold of it. It's worthless. And it's just, it became a really challenging to, to convince investors. So, um, after that, we sort of went back to the original format, um, and went back to original development. I think there were, there were a couple of roadblocks along the way, um, in that, and I think it was, you know, we'd been on a bit of a wall ride.

Um, we'd seen people come and go. We'd seen. You know, all the highs and lows there are in, in, in those startups. And it was April of last year when it really reached a [00:28:00] point where I was like, okay, you know, I've, I've taken essentially five years of, of learning and understanding and mentoring and working with people, and it's really time to now turn my attention to.

Man. That's awesome. Yeah. I felt like it was really that time to branch out and I felt like I, I'd seen from other people's mistakes I was ready to, to jump forward. So, um, made the big move, quit, quit my job, which was really challenging. It was a really hard decision. And, uh, you know, it's easy when things are going right, but when things are going wrong, you know, it does take its toll on you and it really, it really did affect me mentally, physically.

Um, you know, the, the whole situation that we're in and, uh, yeah, I think it's something that being an entrepreneur is, is, Oh, we know it's great and it's glamorous and, you know, you come up with a call line D, pretend going to get money. Yeah. You know, unicorn, whatever else. And it [00:29:00] really, it can be, but for the most part, there is a lot of pain that goes with that.

And it's a lonely place that people don't understand, you know, I think, um. When I was at that point last year, I was coming home. I was just crying. Uh, I was phoning my family. I was me, my friends. What should I do? What should I do? I, she asked as many people as I could because I wanted someone to tell me what I should do and I didn't want it to be again, I open my heart and soul into something.

And now, you know, I've lost it again, but you know, I, and that was a really hard, basic pill to swallow. And it's something that it took a lot of deliberation, a lot of time, a lot of thinking. The little self reflection on, and in the end I had seen, or what's right to me is to now. You know, step away and to, to move forward with the next thing.

And so obviously at this point, my family are like, you get the job, get a job in a stable fortune 500 [00:30:00] company. And so when I told him I quit my job and applied to EF the next day, you can imagine there was some raised, a couple of raised eyebrows. Not was for sure. I don't think everyone was thrilled. Um, but for me it was, um.

I'd never been more hungry than at that moment in time. And I remember in my EF interview, um, they said, you've really been through the ringer. I rule this time, you've lost everything. Like twice you've been up, down in a blink of an eye, go and have some stability and maybe come back to it. I was like, there's not a chance.

There's not a chance I can go and just work in a nice office and sit and do my bit and go home. And you know, it was, I had to prove to myself so I can do it. And prove that, you know, break the curse as it were. But also, you know, why waste all that time and energy, use it into something constructive. So quit the job, applied to EF.

And then as you know, we met a few months later. Yeah. 

Alvin: So I remember when I first [00:31:00] met, you told me your idea, what was this like retail, a receipt, the late solution of get rid receives basically what, what, what gave you that idea? 

Natalie: Well it gave me that day is that I had to do my expenses when I left the company and I'd accrued expenses over many months.

And so I basically have this big box of receipts and I was like, okay, it's time to get back through, dig through those, cause that's just, you know, cash sat in the box right there. I went back and 70% of them, the receipt of faded so much that you can no longer see the amount or the vendor. And I was just like, no.

And I was like, why? Like I can stay with my mom right now in the middle of the UK and chat with the, I can transfer you cash. You know with, with your phone number, and yet I still have to carry this like physical paper receipt to get money that is already owed to me. I was like, this is ridiculous. There is no way that this is, this is how it should be.

And you know, with environmental concerns and everything else, I was like, this is such a waste. [00:32:00] So I've been sort of working on thinking about this idea of, well what if you could digitize receipts at source and then never really have time or want to get something. I researched something I went to eff with and.

Tried and tested it, uh, worked with another member of the cohort. Um, it was really interesting because we were pushing to get that validation is something that Maurine drills into early on, as you definitely know. I've been, like, they won week one, want you to be doing 50 customers and you know, have validation.

Two weeks I some numbers and like, Oh, okay, Oh, and Sunday's not going do anymore. Something you're selling in a way. To people, you're, you know, you're getting these customer conversations you're trying to learn from. And, uh, what is really drilled in as well as, as you know, these edges, you know, work on each of the strengths, network and background and just not having that retail background.

I didn't have the network to be able to go and speak to a decision maker and say, Hey, [00:33:00] tell me all about the POS you're using. Or, you know, how did you reward system work? Us going sort of door to door to stores. And sort of, Hey, if I buy something, you tell me about your POS system. And trying to try and do it that way, which we got some insights for sure.

But, um, as a whole, nothing really quantitative, but we can go off. And it seemed like the trajectory for that research was going to be longer than even the program itself, you know, to get to those decision makers. It was going to take months of LinkedIn stalking and. Guessing their emails and getting in touch and having multiple meetings, or realize that these large retailers very slow moving.

They're also very stuck in their ways. And so we just said, you know, it's not an idea to never do, but it was like in the context of what we have now, is this the right move? And, um, one, one of the main reasons or the main reason in fact, that I went to yes. [00:34:00] Was I wanted to find a co-funder. That that was the single most important reason for me going, yes, getting funding is great.

Yes. You know, being able to. You know, take part in the program and have that seal of approval is fantastic. That the key reason was fun. Cure found it. Because when I tried to raise money by myself in the past, yes, I was a lot younger and more naive. But also, you know, having the tech and the business together, you know, being able to create something that outsourcing it, that's where I got stuck in that wheel before.

So to me, a huge part of community F was having that co-founder. So you can read cocreate something quite quickly. And, um. You know, I came in with the signed data and I think to a large extent it wasn't big enough. It seems, it seems like a big problem, but it wasn't big enough to inspire the people. And again, it was kind of a, but I think it's a great idea.

Like, well, it's great. It's why, I mean, people knew the pain point, but it wasn't something that really ignited people. And, um, [00:35:00] that's when I was like, okay. I should sort of put that to one side. Have conversations. You know, when I'd gone in and started talking to people, I already had this moment mind, I was selling them on this idea.

Instead of reading, learning, and listening and say, Hey, what could we actually do together? That's completely fresh. So that's, that's where it was a turning point for me in, in the program of being able to say, okay. Put your ideas to one side. Have real conversations with people. You know, this is a unique opportunity to be with a hundred of the sort of smartest people in, in the upcoming entrepreneur world.

You have the opportunities to work with them. And I think, uh, for myself on the, the cofounders working with initially, um, we both wanted to work on something that, you know, if we didn't have the other person, it would never work. You really both have to be super integral to that. It's not paying off. And I'm both kind of said, well, we can [00:36:00] each sort of do this by ourselves if we just hired a something.

And we're like, okay, well we really making the most out of this opportunity. So, um, he then went on to have a fantastic cofounder ship is doing extremely well and we will still see great friends. Um, and then I met Jean, he's my co founder, CTO, and, and it was like lightning when we, when we started working together.

Yeah. 

Alvin: So, so like, uh, for everyone, I think Jean, uh, Jean is from South Africa. He's a software engineer. And then before he even joined EF here, and he treated like a basic MVP on weapon detection. So his whole original idea was like, security for South Africa is a very big issue. There is an issue very dear to his heart.

And, uh, he had been talking about it since the BMPs and finally nataline a team that with him. And, uh. Together, they worked on what eventually became Lytehouse. So it was like a . Let's go into more detail on how we started working with Jean was the first thing you [00:37:00] did. 

Natalie: Yeah. So, um, what was really funny about, uh, Jean and I is that, uh, obviously we, we've made friends in the Cairo.

He was working with another cohort member, Andre, episode one. Uh, so they had already started, but we were very close friends. And originally it was Jean Andre. He were the initial dream team that I was working with, another cofounder and multiple different reasons. They both realized it wasn't quite right.

This is for them similarly to, to myself. And, uh. In the course of the program very early on, young was so he was so for surfing across multiple different people's houses. I'm surprised he wasn't on your couch album because he, you know, he was everywhere that would take him. He was that he would have slept in the office honestly.

And, uh, he was trying to find somewhere to stay. I am a, and I was like, like, you more than welcome to come and stay [00:38:00] for a week, use the spare room. And, uh, it's his number. We weren't even that close at this moment in time. And he stayed in the spare room and then over the course of say it was about nine days in the, in the ended up saying we had 64 hours of conversation.

I mean by that is it'd be the evening, have something to eat. No wine is nothing else. We just sit opposite each other. No TV, no music, and just sewing, having chats and the moon. We didn't. It was hours and hours of uninterrupted, uncensored. Your open, honest conversation. You know the kind of conversation I've not had before.

You know where you look at your phone, you're like, it's three in the morning now. I w we signed something like APM and what is going on? And this was every day for like a whole week. And we both sit by and went, okay, we now know everything about each of the risks, the good and the bass, which is important when your cofounders, the good and the bad.

Um, we know each of those intrinsic [00:39:00] motivations. We know what we know how each of the reacts. We know what we're afraid of. We know what we're proud off. So kind of like when we now know each other better than we know most people that we've known for years. It makes sense for us to go down this path because we're driven by the impact of it.

Passionate about technology. We've had some other beliefs, um, similar ethics. So it kind of all the pieces started spotting together and just one day it was kind of like a, huh? What was that thing about the weapons and stuff? And I am from a small village in the middle of the nowhere of the UK. And the biggest thing that ever happened in all village was someone's Robert being stolen.

And genuinely that was a. In front page news. So hearing his story, you know, 37 instances of armed robberies, kidnappings, bombings, muggings just against him and his family in his lifetime. He's 23 years old. So that's a hell of a lot of a hell of a lot of crime. Uh, he's experienced personally, and as [00:40:00] you said, he was in South Africa and his dad stole, was robbed for like a third time.

And while his dad was being, was being held hostage, he's dad sort of looked up at the security cameras. It's sort of a look of him, sort of desperation in his eyes, hoping that someone, his security company was going to see it. I know he could have been shot in seconds from that, but with no idea that no one's no one's coming.

And when they're like reviewing the footage with the, uh, with the police some days later. It really lit this fire in Jean that like, this is ridiculous, and we have the technology here. You know, all the pieces ahead to be able to notify when someone's in trouble and responds. And he's been passionate about machine learning and computer vision for many years tinkering around in his own time.

He's like, I can build this. I don't know why this doesn't exist. So I'm working on some real time weapon detection initially to protect his family and really to set it to be in these stores. Learn about eff [00:41:00] came to the program. And when we started working on it, we, we took a step back, which is one of most important things we could have done.

And we said, we know this is a problem, or we know gun crime was an issue. Let's look at security, like why does security exist? One of the things going wrong in, in the industry, we did a huge deep dive into insurance and how crime and insurance insulins, but, but on a few rabbit holes. Um, but we really wanted to get to know our office space.

And there's two people who have not been insecurity or law enforcement. We are at a disadvantage initially, you know, we, we had a lot of things we had to catch up on. Um, and so, uh, we started working on, on the, the weapon detection and building that out and quickly realized that detecting weapons was great.

You know, it was, it was a really helpful tool. Um, the computer vision is an incredibly competitive space. There are companies like envision out of China that have like 1600 computer vision engineers on the payroll, [00:42:00] and they are going to create the world's most amazing. Computer vision for detection and are you going to beat them necessarily?

So when we had to look at one, what is our, what is our niche? What is our talking about and what kind of product can we build that really captures people who've been underserved? And to do that, we had to go in markets. So we, uh, packed with all weapon detection and you know, then some well wishes. We sort of halfway through the F program flew to South Africa before the investment committee.

It was my first time in Southern Africa. So, uh, I'm a full tool, Mandeville tool, so, so some lines and stuff. Uh, but, uh. Going into the control rooms of these security companies. And just so the compete sort of overload and mismatch is happening there. And you know, we saw CCTV coming into the video management system and then you'd have the license plate recognition feeding into its Webber, [00:43:00] and then the panic alarms, they're going into something else and there's the firearms.

I don't want have these different systems and all of these different people in all of these different screens. And none of this talking to each other in an intelligent way. And that's when we started having these conversations. They were saying, we have this great weapon detection. They're going, Hmm, that's great, but every time a leaf blows in the wind, I get an alert and I'm getting a hundred alerts per hour operator at a 99% false positive rate.

Right. Okay. So detecting weapons is good, but how does this affect the day to day operations of these companies? What we realize is this huge fragmentation from a software perspective, but also of the industry itself. What's holding the industry back from becoming this huge web of, of cross sensor intelligence and understanding.

And then actually the more software that comes out and the more people that are high in the, and the greater and more sophisticated the hardware, the harder it is to bring all these things together as so these companies just patching as much as they can [00:44:00] to try and to try and build it. So that's why we said, okay, there is.

There was a need him, but for a product that can bring all this together and instead of adding to the problem in some way with another, you know, a platform, how can we be this command center for these companies? So basically the, 

Alvin: the poly sensors for different purposes, it's like they have all the sensors, but they have no brain.

There's no brain that connects all of this. 

Natalie: Exactly, exactly. The sentence is just say, you know, if something has happened. And that's all very well and good, but if you've got thousands of sensors saying something's happened, something's happened, something's happened, what do you look? What do you prioritize?

And then, you know, in, in emerging markets, in the markets, we're looking at, you know, one missed alert, an extra 10 minutes is, is a potential life lost? There is no two ways about that. And so we noticed a real problem, um, and one that if you can, you know, make an area safe. If you can integrate these sensors together, you make it easier to prevent.

You know, attacks from happening. If you [00:45:00] can, you know, provide faster response. If you can, de-risking an entire area, why don't you know you have the capacity to bring in more jobs on insurance and you know, be able to, to elevate some social mobility of that area. We were like, guys, so much bigger than, than detecting a weapon.

It's, what do you do next? And that's where the idea of like Lytehouse being this, this workflow tool, which brings in every sensor, every operator, every responder into this one system. And then you just the machine learning and the computer vision to prioritize them, to type them, to, to close loop the whole reporting system, um, through to become a one stop shop.

And the big vision is to one day be a, an open platform. Enabled people to build onto this, this workflow that in two clicks you can hire, you can install the best facial recognition, or you could get drone surveillance, you know, in the click of a button instead of having to rely on external tech teams.

Because what we realize is that security companies are not tech [00:46:00] teams, the security companies, but the tech they using is like the rolls Royce of technology and they're supposed to be able to know how to deploy this at scale and make it cost effective. And it's just not happening. So 

Alvin: you went to South Africa a few times over E F the first time was before I see any went back there again around December.

That's after I see  so. It was like both of these trips, like the on the ground, uh, interacting with all these security companies was what let you do. My finally narrowed down on this specific problem. Like I remember actually back in December, I forgot if it was you or Jean who told me that this is where you big thing, that you got to validate what of you are sensing of.

So, uh, the one was in Singapore. Uh, I was talking to you and then you got to go back South. 

Natalie: So 

Alvin: was it this, was it, this thing about the control center thing? 

Natalie: Yeah. So before the investment committee, [00:47:00] um, yeah, we working on weapons section would expand it to, uh, detecting weapons, fires and intruders. And that's what we'd expanded.

That sweet scene. Um, and then as I said, we went to South Africa, going into the controls, saw this real problem, and then the investment committee was, the deadline for the form was maybe three days after we realized that there was a much bigger and better community. So we were like, what do we do? Do we have, do we go to the investment committee with weapon fire, intruder?

Or do we go into the investment committee with big vision? We're not there yet, but we know how to get there. But that all of the research that we'd done and all the figures that we had and all of the Maka sizing was all semi useless in this new sort of, uh, idea. While this pivot. And we deliberated on it and I mean we really, really deliberated.

There's one memory head in, hands in a coffee shop, pain, like what are we doing? Are we just freaking [00:48:00] out? Like, Oh, this is all falling apart. I'm trying to fill out a form with no information of an idea that we've only just sort of validated in a way, but we said, no, you know what? There is a, there is a real reason, a real need here.

And so we scrambled together for the investment committee form, and then two weeks later pitched for funding and got the funding. Uh, thank you for believing that there was something in this, in this big vision. So once we realized that, and the reason why I went back to South Africa after Christmas was like, we pivoted because we saw for ourselves a real need, but now we have to go and validate how much of this is a need for the whole market.

Get those kinds of numbers speak to which counted to customers about weapons section the first visit. And now I ask, go back and talk to them about workflow management, sensors scale. And it was a different conversation. It was always going back to customer conversation number one, so what kind of platform do you use and how much do you pay for it?

And we almost started again. And it was, it was frustrating [00:49:00] in a way. But at the same time, we were learning so much faster and we, there was really this undercurrent that was moving very quickly and customers were being way more responsive. They were saying, you know, when we're talking about weapons detection, it was, Oh, but this company and this company and this company are doing similar things.

All this. But as soon as you said they will be integrated in this platform, yes, we have our own computer vision, but also there are multiple other companies that we will onboard into this platform. Make it easy for you to deploy them at scale. Now it's a very different conversation because we're competitors honest.

So it really changed the game for us. We got a lot more traction and then now obviously I've demo today was canceled, unfortunately due to this whole Corona a pandemic. And so then we sort of really knuckled down on how do we present what seemed like quite a complicated idea in a succinct way that investors are going to understand and get passionate about as well.

And so when I said we put the groundwork in, it [00:50:00] was 16 to 18 hour days, seven days a week for four weeks. That was one sprint. And it was just every single day. And, uh, I flew back to Singapore. Jean's stayed in South Africa for a little bit longer to deploy a pilot. And a couple of days before he was supposed to fly back to Singapore, he was mugged.

He was walking down the street in South Africa and he was hit on the head with a brick. And he lost the ability to speak. He had his stuff that he, um, like he couldn't finish any sentences. He was passing out on a daily basis and he had a bit of like some trauma, PTSD. The incident, the flew back to Singapore and was not.

Not right. He couldn't code, he couldn't do anything. And this was now the biggest crunch time demo day investors. Thanks. And we were like, Oh my gosh, how on earth are we going to get this done? And [00:51:00] uh, suddenly, you know, I sort of took the mantle, it was like working flat out to, to get it done and only wanted to do was help, like maximum frustration.

Like, please let me do something or I can just send an email. And it was like, no, you don't have to just sit. A play Tetris because we learned that playing Tetris is great for brains when they've been broken. So, um, we basically had him playing Tetris while I was building investor decks, and it was a real test for us.

You know, you have Sydney, but all the way onto one person. And he was feeling guilty. And I was like, no, you have to go and sleep and rest your head. And, you know, I was worried about his health. It really was. The worlds was timing. Um, and then, uh. After that, you know, thankfully everyone is back to full health.

You know, we managed to, um, managed to get him back to normal. Yeah, it was, it was great. It enabled us to see that we can cope under that kind of pressure. Um, [00:52:00] but after all of that stress and those 16 to 18 hour days for weeks, I then had, which has only gone away in the past two and a half weeks. I then had a migraine for two and a half weeks, nearly three weeks solid.

So as soon as he recovered, my brain were like, why does no one want this company to give us a break? It was so stressful and it was exactly the same situation. I couldn't help. I felt guilty and frustrated. He was taking all the load and it was something that we quickly realized that. The first thing to go in the scenario is your health.

Yeah. You know, you will put that at risk. You know, you stop exercising or eating as healthily, or you know, you're not, you're not sleeping as much because it's like, I need to focus all my energy on this, and then, you know, lo and behold, your body finds a way to buy back then. I don't think so. Like, [00:53:00] here's the warning sign.

Get some rest. So for me, that was really tough and, uh, it felt like the sky was falling again. But thankfully we pulled through it and have to say all fundraising has been going extremely well. So it was just a good reminder that as a founder, you know, you have to, without you, there was no business at that stage without the two of you.

There's no company. Um, so if your brain doesn't work and your body's exhausted and your brain decides to turn itself off. Yeah. For the sake of having had a few more hours sleep or taking care of yourself a little bit better. It's not worth the trade. 

Alvin: How are you balancing taking care of yourself and building a company right 

Natalie: now?

No, this has been something. I didn't find it easy. Um, but it's something I've been investing a lot of time and energy into at the moment, and that has been. Uh, I joined the co-living program. So, uh, it's a space where we [00:54:00] do 6:00 AM club, which is 20 minutes off, working out 20 minutes of meditation in 20 minutes, all learning something all before 7:00 AM.

And the idea is that you take time for yourself before you start the day. So get up a bit earlier, but take the hour to just like be a human before you're a founder. And that was really, really important. And that's been a huge mind mind shift for me. Um, so be a human before founder and putting that into practice is tough because there was obviously so much to do is never ending stream of things that you haven't done yet and the days and the weeks overall in your life, there's never hours.

Um, you know, it's, it's, it's important to take those apps. Yeah. 

Alvin: So, uh, now, uh,

[00:55:00] okay, on your site, like you're getting, I can hear myself.

Make focus on windows.

Okay. Yeah. Just close all my windows. Okay. Wait, y'all, your screen froze. [00:56:00]

So we left off at 

Natalie: you 

Alvin: were talking about how you like the 60 minute routine, 20 minutes meditation, 20 minutes reflection your current co-living place puts a lot of emphasis on that, like being human before being a founder

right.

This 6:00 AM routine every day. And then there's one way that you've been trying to balance being yourself with, with like just building the company, 

Natalie: so. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, um, it's been, it's been a real journey and it's a transformation program is in the three months and you sort of move in then [00:57:00] you have a coach, you do the 6:00 AM club, you do like.

The golden circle, but like deep chats, you know, about personal life and, and you know, things in your past and no point as you said, is to, to work smarter, not longer. Yeah. You know, I think there really is a tendency when you are funding a company to almost have this monster of, yeah, I can work from 6:00 AM to two in the morning.

Like, cause that's what's starting a company is, you know, there's almost like a guilt. If not, if you don't spend every hour of your day doing your company, it's like, well, if it fails, then I didn't do every hour in the day then, then you know, I could've done something. And it's that kind of unhealthy mentality that if I'm reading it, it's what breaks people.

You know? And for me, my head breaking was, uh, a bit of a wake up call and you know, you can't run yourself on zero fumes and expect the call to go [00:58:00] anywhere. Yeah. You like, you didn't put any fuel in. It's just, you know, I'm going to move. So, um, you know, if it's just his ass. So for me, I was working a lot in Jean as well.

Um, really these extraordinarily long days as I moved to the program. And a big part of that was having accountability for time off because between the two of you, you'll both sit there until, you know. It's, it's very early in the next morning and, and you know, get up early again, because you both are dedicated to what you do and you both are passionate and excited about it.

But what is harder to realize is how detrimental just sprinting the whole time actually is. And you know, a case of that is we had been working on a MVP demo for a client. And the genre. I haven't set up when you're working all day. I've been driving around, we've been having meetings and we're set up until pretty [00:59:00] late at night, and it was now sort of one two in the morning and Jean was trying to fix a bug in the code.

And he'd been on the same bug for, honestly, I think I'd been about four hours and he was losing his mind, like frustration or meeting the client the next day. He was just like, you know, couldn't, couldn't stay calm. And then obviously that was making me not calm. Then I was thinking on, do we have to cancel the meeting?

And it takes so long to get it. And it really wasn't a good place for either of us. And, um, I sort of made the call and said, look, I think we just need to go to bed. Wake up tomorrow. And like, let's look at it with fresh eyes and a fresh head. Yeah. So when to sleep, woke up the next day, he fixed it within 30 minutes.

Right. And he was like, he'd just been looking at it for so long that he just couldn't see what was right in front of him. And I think that's a great, for me, a reminder of sometimes cool.

You know, it's to [01:00:00] literally turn off. Go and do something else. Go walk in nature, go read a book, go listen to a podcast, like playing an instrument, talk to your friends, you know, do something else. And then when you come back, you have like new energy for what you're dealing with. But also you have a fresh perspective and sitting at your laptop and staring at it when you're not being productive is not productive.

So, um, we're still getting that in, in, in that learning. But being part of the program where people really drill it into, you. You know, nine 30 you should be getting ready for bed. And it kind of sounds crazy cause you like, but at nine 30 I still probably got four hours of work I have to do. And it's like if you go to bed at nine 30 and you wake up at six you know who you're going to meet so much better at your job tomorrow if you take care of yourself today.

And so that has been a real challenge. And I think it's something that everyone faces. Um, in this scenario, but I think particularly with the investors we've been speaking to, you know, we've been talking about, um, [01:01:00] staying healthy and, and having these ponds, and it's something that they respect, you know, is, is you taking care of yourself because they're investing in you ultimately, are your customers are buying a product from you, you know, at this stage is all about you and your investors that are putting their money in.

Can these two people pull this off? And to you. So if those two people are living in healthy and driving themselves into the ground and bashing their head across the Mac, like it, they don't going to get to the Tenex any Quicken. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a tough one and it's a delicate balance, but I think a Wizarding together, and I'm, I'm certainly starting to, to find that happy medium 

Alvin: was the name of this co-living face.

Natalie: I suppose stage six, um, yeah. If you're in Singapore, it's new. Scott spotters would park on the shop houses on Blair road. Um, so it's the, it's a, it's Colin's space and his aim to entrepreneurs, people starting businesses, um, [01:02:00] and sort of a support from the business perspective so that your coach sort of business and life, um, support on the business side.

Uh, but also, you know, your personal. Um, what are your goals and motivations over the next few months, and how can you put in healthy steps to achieving those on, on all different sort of mind, body, business front? So, um, yeah, it's been a, it's been a real journey. It's in the final month now. And they kind of came to the, the opportune time.

And my goal going into this was one being healthier Zen. This is the medicine. Medicine got F's, but I'm not there. Yes, there's a lot of stress, but the other goal was to have a funding company within three months. Then when I joined the program, we hadn't had one investor meeting yet, and the goal was to be VC funded money in the bank three months.

It's a hell of a goal. And you know, I'm happy to say that, uh, the way things are looking, we're [01:03:00] not far off that. So, um, hopefully got some more good news for you very soon. Oven. 

Alvin: Fantastic.

Natalie: Oh, yeah, definitely. Uh, I think. You know, we were pretty confident that we're going to raise very soon, um, with, with the, uh, great, great VC st you in for that. Um, and then, you know, what is interesting now is. The past six months, which is wild when you think about it. You know, from not knowing somebody to being a VC funding company the past six months, the whole goal of folks or the company has been, you know, how can you get traction?

Prove that your idea works, you know, prove that people want it. You know, and build that case, that story that shows that there's real legs to this venture. But now we're facing that point of, okay, if people are going to put real money into us now we have to actually. Do it. You know, now you've got to actually, you know, build that [01:04:00] business and it's a very different mindset.

And I think that's why we've been trying to put these practices in place now, because, you know, building a 10 X business is certainly going to be a, a pretty big challenge also. So, um, would definitely give you the update once, uh, once you're further down the track.

Alvin: So, so like right now, what's your next step? I actually saw it like you, you hire your first employee, but too long ago 

Natalie: for my house. Yep. So we hired a first, uh, part-time deep learning engineer on a Canada young. He's been a great asset and worked very closely with Jean. Um, the, the next steps, they're obviously closing that funding as always.

So, uh, very fuzz, mostly closed the funding. Second is hiring. You know, we have a pipeline of customers that we're extremely excited about, about a million ARR in the pipeline. Um, over the next 12 to [01:05:00] 18 months. So, uh, we really do now need the, the town, um, the support in how to execute on these partners.

We've joined PortXL. We were invited in by, um, August one, the, the venture capital firm. And , it's a way to bring new ideas and startups into the Marine industry. So, uh, looking at ways to improve security using our platform, you know, for ports. So it'll really be the next few months we'll be executing on some of these new potential distributional client bases and getting money in the bank.

And I'm really building out this team, this core team. Um, that poses its own challenges. Obviously hiring is, is very tricky and it's something that I've seen over the past five years. How instrumental. People are, and we hope that we can learn quickly and be able to build a pretty powerhouse team over the next couple of months.

Obviously, Corona poses its own [01:06:00] challenges, but also opportunity. You know, I think there's going to be a lot of incredible talent out there looking for more work, um, just because of the situation. A lot of startups are in and I really do feel for them.  this moment in time. So there'll be a lot of talent available.

Also, security is considered an essential service. So like the ambulance and the police, they're still able to operate, which is good for us and obviously is as situations deteriorate opportunists and crime does, does tend to increase as well. So , from a company perspective, we're going to try and use this in a positive way and see how we can reconnect with all Rolodex of, of companies to support them in this difficult time.

Alvin: Yeah. Fantastic. So let's wrap up here with some quick five questions. Um, what's your favorite business book? 

Natalie: Yeah. Oh, my favorite business book. I think a 

Alvin: mom business book is finally, uh,  any 

Natalie: book I can give you a multiple. So, um, I like leaders eat [01:07:00] last. Yeah. I think it's, it's a pretty great book. My favorite non, my favorite fiction.

Uh, to the picture of Dorian gray basketball and, uh, the narrow row to the deep North two excellent books, whatever you want to give those a read our road to the deep North. Yeah. And I'm also, yeah, currently in my wellness, spiritual awakening. Um, I'm also reading a couple of books, like the, the 5:00 AM club by Robin Sharma.

Which is essentially the theory behind this waking up and doing an hour of 20 2020 and using, using that, and so I just started reading that and deep human as well, so, yeah. Yeah. What 

Alvin: was your favorite tool that you want to use when building your business? 

Natalie: My favorite tool, I think, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a bit of a.

[01:08:00] I'm a G suite fan. I love everything being in one place. I look around with, with, uh, with sinking everything together. Um, I think the, the, I have a, I have a. A tendency to avoid a lot of the project management tools. Cause I find that it's more effort to put stuff in there than it is that asking to do, to do it.

Um, but I'm also, I'm also a big, I'm a wholesome, a HubSpot fan. So the HubSpot CRM has helped me many times. It's free, you know, you can really get all your contacts in there. You link your, your G suite to that since you reminders. It really is a super handy tool if you're on a budget and a, you have a Rolodex of people to try and organize.

Alvin: Okay. So, um, who are some CEOs that, you know, you know, personally and you really respect, like, especially those outside of the whole ETF ecosystem. . 

Natalie: Cool. Yeah. Some, some CEOs I really respect. I think, um, I see the, the, the CEO of, [01:09:00] of same sex. Um, Helena, she, you know, came out of, uh, she's running a big day to start up left that sort of tech life and wanting to help other people sort of achieve this.

This is better balance. You know, and I respect that it also takes a lot of, a lot of courage to step out of a space where you're known as a certain thing. She was part of the marketing. This is big data company and cool in a little bit more niche, but you know, is your passion. I really do really do respect that.

Um, I think there's been a lot of CEOs actually, you know, over the years in, in all of these different, um. Different types of, of tech businesses. Um, and I, I think it's, it's interesting and, and I, I didn't think, uh, any one team is built around a CEO. 

Alvin: Yeah. So, uh, if there's one lesson you could tell yourself [01:10:00] back before you start the whole building own company, what 

Natalie: would that be?

It's a great question. One lesson I would tell myself. Uh, there, I see this, I'll give it to you. Get double. The warm lesson I would have told myself is, um, the most important was to trust your judgment. Yeah. Yeah. There were multiple times where I tried to stop things and. You know, I let naysayers and down and you know, I'm young or you know, I'm not technical at all.

I'm not this. I let these seeds planted in and think, Oh, you know, if I don't have an IPO into my bell to, I haven't built a unicorn before, how am I ever going to pull this off if other people can't? And you have to re how that unwavering confidence. In, in your own ability doesn't mean you don't listen.

It doesn't mean you need to pivot and learn. But knowing, look, I have, I have the bandwidth to do this. I have the capabilities to pull this [01:11:00] off. I just need to learn more or listen more or observe more and I'll get there. So that's the one thing I would've told myself is to reach trust. You can do this.

And then the second would be to not skip on your research. Whether it's for your own thing, whether you're joining a startup, like never be afraid to ask hundreds of questions. You know, I think it's, it's, uh, everybody's selling something and when you join a team or when you buy a product or, or whatever it is, you know, you're, you're buying into that.

I think for me, I would've told myself to really dig deep and to have a deep understanding of, of the space I was going into before stepping in. It 

Alvin: trust yourself and us. Questions? 

Natalie: Questions? Yeah, 

Alvin: so thanks Natalie. So today we learned about Natalie's journey from being an English major job, a major down, and going down a [01:12:00] full rabbit hole doing two startups.

Which one didn't really. Get them attraction and finding, building out my own company with a fantastic co-founder, Jean. So, uh, and as well as own whole, whole journey of like balancing self development and building a company. So thanks Natalie. Uh, I'll update the show because like 

Natalie: we 

Alvin: had to disable video for, for the second half.

Mostly it was . I did a video and then we'll combine that back again. Maybe I'll just, I'll call this final five. 

Natalie: Okay, fantastic. Thanks, Alvin. 

Alvin: Thank you. Thanks, Natalie.